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RAF
10-15-2003, 08:29 PM
As many of you are aware of, the question of whether Qi exists or is of importance in the learning of Chinese martial arts has been argued and debated many times here on this forum.

For alternative viewpoint of who these debunkers, in particular, Randi and Paul Kurtz are, here is a website that is worth looking at:

http://www.alternativescience.com/csicop.htm

The Paradigm Police

In an imperfect world, we all suffer from a gap between how we see ourselves and how others see us: between what we'd like to be and what we are. But in 30 years of journalism I haven't found a more striking gulf between self-image and performance than CSICOP -- the Committee for Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal.

Everything about CSICOP purports to be scientific -- objective, fair, independent, investigative, rational. In reality, CSICOP is the home of the Paradigm Police, a kind of Pseudoscience-Central that deals in fundamentalist prejudice, opinion and bias, informed by a single, central hidden agenda -- to debunk at any cost any phenomenon, evidence or theory that touches on the list of taboo subjects that CSICOP has drawn up as forbidden.

The contradictions start even with CSICOP's name. Any rational person would expect an organisation that calls itself a Committee for Scientific Investigation to actually involve itself in carrying out scientific investigations, but CSICOP conducts no such investigations, it merely makes ex cathedra pronouncements telling the public what it should and shouldn’t believe, without troubling itself about conducting experiments.

When it was first formed in 1976, CSICOP did attempt a foray into scientific investigation, which turned into a farcical scandal. It decided to target the statistical work of French mathematician Michel Gauquelin whose work appeared to suggest there might be something in astrology after all.

Within a short time however, CSICOP officer Dennis Rawlins, who was acting as the study's statistician and was the only astronomer on CSICOP's council, announced he was quitting and accused CSICOP of blatantly fiddling the figures to prove Gauquelin wrong. (Click here for full story).

Since then, CSICOP has quietly dropped any pretence of being an investigating body and acts instead as the spiritual home of scientific fundamentalism -- a church with many priests but few congregations.

CSICOP's founder and president is Dr Paul Kurtz, formerly a professor with New York State University. Perhaps surprisingly, Dr Kurtz is not a scientist but a philosopher. In a memorable TV interview, on the subject of 'aliens', he said, "If we are going to admit aliens, what are we going to admit next? Fairies? Elves? Where do we draw the line?"

In this spontaneous comment Dr Kurtz has unconsciously disclosed his entire philosophy of science. For him, science is not open, without boundaries, up for exploration and discovery without fear or favour. Science is closed like a classified or restricted area to which ideas and people are "admitted" by duly authorised guardians, and once inside must stick to the authorised boundaries.

It is the guardians who "draw the line" around the boundaries of science. And Dr Kurtz clearly considers himself to be one of these guardians because he says "Where do we draw the line"?

Its good to hear and see all side of an issue.

BaldMonk
10-16-2003, 12:08 AM
As disapointing as this myopic point of view is, unfortunately such is the norm as opposed to the exception in our culture. I would be curious to see if the lethargy exhibited by people when it comes to finding the truth of things is something that's the same across different cultures. We seem to live in a place where ontology means CNN and Fox news. Add Chi to the equation and the problem is compounded. It is a subject, like many others that have to do with the martial arts, that many talk about from a purely academic perspective, without having the practical sense or experience to have an informed or educated opinion. Truth has to be made your own or it's somebody else's not yours. No one brings it to you you have to go out and find it. The truth that is delivered to you often turns out to be the type that the paradigm police delivers. Critical thinking is scary. It seems a lot of people avoid it to maintain the orderly structure of their illusions.

Peace.

Repulsive Monkey
10-16-2003, 02:39 AM
Nice scoop RAF. I cannot abhore these Randi supporters, who know precious little about the foundations of CSICOP, yet praise him divinely for his crusade against apparent apathy in areas which call for thinking outside the box, and then stoically support him because they think his work is scientific.
He is a blooody stage magician for god's sake.

Thanks again for helping to re-calibrate the scales.

RAF
10-16-2003, 03:48 AM
Its always good to see what all sides bring to the table in a discussion of the issues such as TCM, Qi etc..

The Paradigm Police certainly paints an interestng picture of the ideological mission and zeal of those trying to debunk Qi and other alternative paradigms of knowledge in a mission to save the world from its inherent irrationality (of course, as defined by them).

However much to their dismay and many of those at the opposite end of the spectrum, taijiquan, qi, traditional Chinese medicine are becoming part of the mainstream of society.


Balkmonk, I agree. In the end, each of us will have to balance all views and come ot our conclusion. BTW, as a side note, did you make it the tournament (if you did, I know we met)?

Repulsive Monkey: I would never ban that particular group (I actually sit down and page through the Skeptical Inquirer) but I find it interesting, like the Pigs and Humans in George Orwell's book, Animal Farm, that often you can't tell the difference between the debunkers and those on the lunatic fringe.

Another cite of interest: http://www.quackwatch.org/

BaldMonk
10-16-2003, 07:38 AM
RAF,

Yeah I made it. How many bald guys from AK showed up. I gave you guys the cigars. Thanks again for the hospitality.

Naly, Naly

Aaron

count
10-16-2003, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by BaldMonk
RAF,

Yeah I made it. How many bald guys from AK showed up. I gave you guys the cigars. Thanks again for the hospitality.

Naly, Naly

Aaron
Um, 2? :D

dwid
10-16-2003, 07:53 AM
Critical thinking is scary. It seems a lot of people avoid it to maintain the orderly structure of their illusions.

This could be applied to people on both sides of the fence in this particular issue.

CSICOP/Skeptical Enquirer does tend to be more in the extremist camp. Personally, I find Skeptic magazine to be more scientific/moderate. Michael Shermer is pretty cool. I remember when UFO abduction was all over the talk shows, he was oftentimes the only guest invited who was a voice for skepticism. It made for some pretty funny stuff.

RAF
10-16-2003, 10:55 AM
dwid:

I usually cover their publication over a cup of coffee in our local Borders. There's also been a great deal of rumblings concerning the fundings of the NIH's alternative medicine grants and studies. I find them a bit trying, when they attempt to reduce everything to a Western paradigm or model. Some of them need to bracket their belief system and look for the possibilities in other ways of grasping the world. They are beginning to take on the trappings of those they criticize.

Baldmonk, Count:

Of course. You missed dinner last nite---Sun De Yao cooked wu hua rou, sort of pork belly with layered fat in a stew. Good way to finish the nite after a couple of long rounds of taiji and xiao kai men. Remember the door is always open, come back, soon!

Anyway, back to work.:rolleyes:

BaldMonk
10-16-2003, 03:48 PM
RAF

Master Sun practiced that meal on us a couple of days before you guys ate it. Very tasty.


Count

Danny came from Germany. I'm the only Bald guy who came from Alaska. :D


Peace

Former castleva
10-19-2003, 11:22 AM
In this spontaneous comment Dr Kurtz has unconsciously disclosed his entire philosophy of science. For him, science is not open, without boundaries, up for exploration and discovery without fear or favour. Science is closed like a classified or restricted area to which ideas and people are "admitted" by duly authorised guardians, and once inside must stick to the authorised boundaries.

Stuff like this,I wonder where do they pull it off from?
My stance being;straight from the hat (I do not mind a reference that would confirm their claims of course).

It´s the kind of "turning the table on free-thinkers" thing.

RAF
10-19-2003, 01:01 PM
http://www.sheldrake.org/
http://www.transaction.net/science/seven/
http://www.salon.com/people/feature/1999/11/23/sheldrake/print.html

http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-03/stare.html

http://www.natur.cuni.cz/~vpetr/Sheldrake.htm

Controversies

by Rupert Sheldrake

Healthy skepticism plays an important part in science, and stimulates research and critical thinking. Healthy skeptics are open-minded and interested in evidence. By contrast, dogmatic skeptics are committed to the belief that "paranormal" phenomena are impossible, or at least so improbable as to merit no serious attention. Hence any evidence for such phenomena must be illusory. Several such Skeptics have attacked my research on the unexplained powers of animals and on the sense of being stared at. Click on their names if you want to know what they said, and to read my replies. All of them are associatied with CSICOP, the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, an organization devoted to debunking evidence for "paranormal" phenomena, and to promoting skeptical claims in the media. CSICOP publishes the Skeptical Inquirer, 'the magazine for science and reason'.

http://www.sheldrake.org/controversies/
___________________________________

I think he offers a paradigm from which TCM, Qi and other phenomena should at least be explored before being written off. My reading is that they treat issues such as TCM, Qi as more or less "paranormal" and in general, Bullshiyt subjects.

Skeptical Inquirer has offered critiques of TCM a couple of issues back and if you are open-minded, the dialogue at the opposite end of the spectrum might just prove insightful.

PS I am not a burnt out hippie. I come from Steel town south of Pittsburgh, more like a Deerhunter mentality. You know, Rolling Rock not Rolling Joints! A Hooker in the Hot Mill, Wheeling-Pittsburgh, not a hooker on the streets.

Now don't shut up, and do your job!