Tai Chi realistic self-defense or just good relaxation?

[rogue]

Thread by troll over at Mousels (http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9381)


Tai chi is considered a martial arts by many,it is said that if the techniques of Tai Chi are to be used very quickly in a real situation they will be very effective as a self-defense.Of course these techniques can be done very quickly and softly if the other person isn't moving and isn't fighting back.

I personally do not consider Tai Chi an art of self-defense.

I can not imagine how an art with nothing but forms can be useful on street.

For any art to be useful on street you need to train and practice like a fighter through full contact sparring.

Tai Chi as far as I am concerned is just an art for practicing chi and for learning to relax, that's why it is very good and healthy for young and elderly people.

Who here agrees ? Anybody here bored enough to correct him?:)

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Link doesn't seem to work. :(

The guy is obviously trolling and totally glueless, not worth the effort in replying.


for practicing chi

Must repeat that tommorow at the kwoon, it is just too funny.

Maybe I should ask him how that is done. ;)

[rogue]

Fixed the link. The guy thinks only Muay Thai works in a fight.:rolleyes:

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by rogue
Fixed the link. The guy thinks only Muay Thai works in a fight.:rolleyes:

Thanks.

[Wind&Mountain]

The Poster (muy thai fighter) is correct in a sense , but only correct in that you dont see much fighting applications taugt with tai chi. It is mainly used for relaxation/stress reduction, and for internal work. You just dont see many modern tai chi fighters.

but i also think that fighting is not all that Tai chi is. The internal road is a longer road to walk and at the beginning you will lose fight confrontations. Once you get past all that fighting nonsense anyway you will find a new level of your training and then you will discover that fighting will come easy to you.
But Taichi is a fighting art and its done slowly to convey the techniques and when performed in sparring it is very fast.
but i have also seen Muy thai Boxing and it is a brutal fighting system. if i were to see a tai chi practitoner and a muy thai practitioner each with say 3 years training i would put my money on the muy thai fighter(hands down).
advance the training to over ten years and i would put my money on the muy thai fighter hands down.
advance the training to over 20 years and my money goes for the tai chi practitioner hands down.;)

Peace,,,,WindandMountain

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Wind&Mountain.

It doesn't have to take that long.
I have seen dedicated students under a good teacher progress very quickly.

A lot of TJQ schools I have been to tended to concentrate too much on forms and maybe some Tui Shou, with a few weapons added on.
They never took the indiviudal movements and trained them solo and made sure that the small parts were done correctly.

How many TJQ students stand regular in Zhang Zhuang for 40 minutes or more, most I ask will answer I do it while watching my favorite sitcom or similar. Or practice developing spiral energy.

Over here we got some good IMA that train & teach EVERYDAY in the park no matter what the weather is, if it rains they simply put on a raincoat, warmer clothing for snow, etc.
Same for their students, come 06:00am the whole class is assembled in the park.

Point is it can be done, majority of people simply don't have access to a good Sifu or the dedication to make it work.

[Kungfuren]

Taiji, you hit it on the head. I have heard it said, though I can't remember where, that to PRACTICE taijiquan, requires a minimum of three rounds... the first warms you up, the second stretches you out, and then you are ready. But according to the "Classics" if you neglect the martial, you are deviating from the path, and a deviation of an inch might as well be a mile. Unfortunately, there is more T'ai Cheese in the US, and I suspect the world, than there is Taijiquan. Taijiquan is a very challenging art to get right, and effective, if you analyze it... for example, snake put out ts tongue can be a "piercing attack" the the supraclavicular notch, or maybe even a direct attack to the trachea... sounds pretty effective to me.

Interestingly enough, I have been trained in Korean Martial Art, notably Hapkido. Virtually every throw we do in Hapkido is represented somewhere in some fashion in the form.

[count]

Originally posted by Wind&Mountain

advance the training to over 20 years and my money goes for the tai chi practitioner hands down.;)

Peace,,,,WindandMountain

"Even a pot of water will take 20 years to boil, if you keep taking it off the fire."

Kungfuren, Are you practicing Tai Chi in Thousand Oaks? If so, let me know where and when. I'm in Moorpark.

[fredericsimon]

taiji is not only form.... there are fights even.
and it is very effective -...
note that taiji had shaolin influences and that people use to do flips and all of that... even now most of good chen taiji practitonner have good and strong shaolin basics, taiji synergy is probably beyond the comprehension of most of muathai practionner-

[Kungfuren]

count,

I practice, but thats about it. I am not teaching or anything like that. I may do some volunteer work at a local clinic for some people trying to get healed. I would be willing to share what little knowledge I have with you. Maybe we can do an exchange. Email me at haemukwanjang@aol.com.

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by count


"Even a pot of water will take 20 years to boil, if you keep taking it off the fire."




Best saying I have heard in a while.

[count]

Originally posted by Felipe Bido



Best saying I have heard in a while.

LOL! I got a million of 'em!:D

[8gates]

delibandit:

I've done Taiji connection drills where the opponent punches at you and you must quickly adhere to their attack and deliver a counter attack. The problem with sparring in Taiji is that to apply the skills in "real time" would mean serious injury to a sparring partner. Sparring in external styles takes on a boxing format, which can be more controlled. Come to think of it, even this type of sparring is somewhat unrealistic, because punches and kicks cannot be delivered full force without serious injury to the opponent. Unless you both wear a lot of protective gear, which adds another layer of unrealism to the situation.

Any "real time" sparring with a partner is better then "just" solo practice.. You can still better refine your techniques, and see what applications, from each movement,
would be better to to use, in one of the many self defense situations, that "may" happen. :)


This is from my own experence.
The real self-defense of Tai Chi comes from each movement of the form...applications come from each movement. I do practice the form, but I also practice each movement (Ward Off, Roll back.. ECT.) by themselves over and over again.

I,myself, find it very helpful to practice each movement, to defend against differnt attacks, ether in solo practice or against a partner.
From my own experence, every style of Martial Art has its own strengths and weaknesses. :)
Be Happy today.

[Chris_McKinley]

8gates has spanked the correct and stolen its girlfriend.

RE: "The real self-defense of Tai Chi comes from each movement of the form...applications come from each movement. I do practice the form, but I also practice each movement (Ward Off, Roll back.. ECT.) by themselves over and over again.". This is one of THE best practices one can do to gain real functional ability with Taijiquan. However, I'd suggest going further...try exploring each posture. What I mean is, play a little game of spotting the applications with it. See how many ways the movement might be useful in as many different contexts as possible. Next (and this is what separates the men from the boys), troubleshoot it. Find out not if, but where, the flaws are in the movement as it applies to each given context. Find out what can go wrong and how damage control can be applied. Trust me, it's in the development of recovery skills that true neijia fighting ability resides.

It's kinda funny how many folks put aside their own egos when training Taiji, then turn right around and act as if the art itself had an ego that has to be assuaged. They dare not examine too closely for fear of actually seeing and exposing any possible weakness a given posture might have.

[Shooter]

Chris wrote:

Trust me, it's in the development of recovery skills that true neijia fighting ability resides.

Recovery method was the core of how I was taught and it's the same method I use to train others. It's the key to properly structuring the training so it reflects reality in h2h fighting.

Something else I've been saying for years on these boards: -Instead of training for success, train for failure-

More and more IMAs people are starting to speak this language. And in doing so, some of them are about-facing from their previous stance on this idea. I've gotten into so many lengthy debates with sooo many people just because of this one sticking point. It really helps measure the BS when they can't or won't see the simple truth of this idea. :cool:

Training sound recovery method is only one of three components I incorporate into developing good basic TCC. The process stems from a foundation based on two supporting mediums.

[Tak]

Originally posted by Wind&Mountain
if i were to see a tai chi practitoner and a muy thai practitioner each with say 3 years training i would put my money on the muy thai fighter(hands down).
advance the training to over ten years and i would put my money on the muy thai fighter hands down.
advance the training to over 20 years and my money goes for the tai chi practitioner hands down.;)
First, maybe. Take an "average" MT person and an "average" TJQ person who's trained the martial applications, put them each in a self-defense situation, and I'd give pretty much the same odds to both.

Second, I disagree. As you noted, MT is brutal, and someone who's been practicing for 10 years may well be past his/her peak and pretty beaten up physically.

Third, I agree, but mainly for the reason I stated for the second example. 20 years of dedicated MT will be pretty hard on the body.

Note: I picked a self-defense situation rather than a MT vs. TJQ ring match to level the field, since MT participants train to compete in the ring.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It has been my experience that Taiji training (ie: forms) is a tool for internalizing the "principles".. it has been the principles that emerged in sparring/street encounters that i have been involved in.. there are variations upon variations of forms and applications, and they are all dependent on the correct foundation of principles.. actually, my external arts have benefitted from good principles of Taiji, as well.. Sometimes we get lost in the comparison of forms and details of choreography and neglect the foundation of good sound principle.. Standing meditation (ie: Wuji, Zha Zhuang, etc...), silk reeling, Taiji diagram tracing, QiGong, posture refinement, good diet, good health habits, etc... this will set the stage for good Taiji, regardless of style..

The school where i teach, Extreme Harmony Martial Arts Academy, has quite a variety of Arts, Muay Thai, JKD, Kali Escrima, Punjat Silat, Grappling/NHB, Wing Chun (my partners' classes).. i teach Taiji, ChinNa, QiGong, and San Shou.. Sparring classes and applications classes sometimes mix styles, and Taiji holds its own pretty well.. though it is a challenge to find enough softness to neutralize the brutal hardness of the senior Muay Thai guys.. So, in response to the Topic, i find that Taiji is both a realistic self-defense AND a meditative relaxation.. it is a well-rounded system that offers much to many..

Be well..

[Chris_McKinley]

TaiChiBob,

Sounds like you've got a gem of a training environment. I teach/train in a similar environment. I teach Baguazhang at Pat Burris's USA Stars Foundation Judo Training Center. In addition to training Olympic Judo contestants, the school also has Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, Karate and Wing Chun. The other guys can't quite figure me out yet. They'll see us one time and we're working on the extreme nuances of standing in different positions. They'll come back later in the same class and we're working neck breaks or knife combat. Most of 'em just scratch their widdle heads. And oh yeah, I've held my own successfully against all of 'em. :D

[Syd]

Greetings all, this is my first post here at the forum.

*LOL* Nice one Chris, I can really relate to what you have said there. I will not address the statements made by ignorant fellows regarding Taijiquan as a fighting art because there's no point trying to educate a brick.

It is simply a case of those who know what Taiji is as a fighting art knowing and sitting back and smiling. I'll take any strike from any angle with peng/hinge and nail any number of points with block/attacks. Taiji is very difficult to spar because the kind of technique is in so close and it's over so quickly because the strikes are all kill shots or arm breaks performed literally in fractions of a second.

I know people who say "oh spare me the my arts too deadly to perform crap" but they obviously haven't trained in martial Taijiquan and don't realize what this would be asking! I wouldn't mind just once to have a trained martial Taiji practioner actually take on one of these guys but sadly the dude wouldn't be around to realize his mistake after the fact. I would say god help anyone who is on the recieving end of anybody who knows their combat Taiji... goodnight sweet prince is all that comes to mind.

Bottom line, I train in the Erle Montaigue Fajinquan system in Australia and we are 110% dedicated to combat effective Taijiquan, training in fajin, explosive internal force, dim mak, point striking and various Wudan Qi Disruption techniques and basic to advanced Qigongs including Iron Shirt. Anyone walking into a class in this system thinking it's about old people and relaxation quickly finds otherwise.

Taiji is a complete system and as such has many branches and areas that range from the health and medical side
right across to the combat and spiritual side. It's allot for some martial artists to take in I guess.

Best to all, Syd

[looking_up]

Can Bruce and Chris please explain what they mean by recovery skills? Do you mean recovery from:

a) a bad position
b) getting hit
c) injury, as in after the fight has occurred


Something tells me the answer is all three, but I wanted to know what you meant by "recovery" in the original context.

Thanks!!!

David

[Fu-Pow]

Taiji can be extremely fast and poweful. I've seen my Taiji Sifu do a punch at full force and speed and quite frankly it was scary. I've never seen anything like that before.

The key in Taiji Chuan is that you have to go slow before you can go fast. If you try to go fast before you understand all the subtleties of the body mechanics involved you are robbing yourself of potential.

When you go fast in other "external" styles it is hard work. It makes you sweat and tires you out. It puts pressure on your joints and muscles. You can really "feel" something happening.

When you go fast in Taiji (that is when you understand the movement) it is not that different from going slow. That is, it takes no more effort than going slow.

So it is confusing to beginners because they don't feel like they are "doing" anything when they are doing the movement correctly.

They over emphasize things or make the movements more difficult than they need to be so that they can feel something. When you do Taiji well it should take no more effort than sitting in a warm bath.

It should feel effortless.

I think this is why Taiji is so hard to learn and why it is so poorly understood by other arts.

[backbreaker]

I have that excact problem sometimes.Sometimes I'll try to push my opponent or do some stiff technique concentrating on specific nuances of alignment when I should relax,get my structure shape,and just turn my waist.Does maybe the slow practice in taiji have to do with finishing every move seamlessly and completing it through to the end before changing moves?Like you don't want to pull back a punch until it's completed it's large motion.Then you immediatly pull it back with a short fajin motion

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by backbreaker
I have that excact problem sometimes.Sometimes I'll try to push my opponent or do some stiff technique concentrating on specific nuances of alignment when I should relax,get my structure shape,and just turn my waist.Does maybe the slow practice in taiji have to do with finishing every move seamlessly and completing it through to the end before changing moves?Like you don't want to pull back a punch until it's completed it's large motion.Then you immediatly pull it back with a short fajin motion

Not sure if I can help here, as in my style we don't pull things back.
End position of one move is the start position of the next move for us.

But moves should be completed with as little interruptions as possible, stoping between the movements to make minor adjustements during the form is often recommended.

The way I see it doing the moves slower allows the mind to sense and feel the body better and thus flaws can be more easily detected and corrected.

[backbreaker]

I was thinking maybye you do pull back in Yang and Chen style after a punch.After you do a right hand punch you pull it back in case they redirect and grab your wrist or if maybe someone grabs you from behind.Actually,don't push hands and alot of taiji use pulling types of energy for many things?What exactly is pull anyway?Does it involve staying ahead of your opponent and using your structure on your opponent with twisting or spiraling energy?

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by backbreaker
I was thinking maybye you do pull back in Yang and Chen style after a punch.After you do a right hand punch you pull it back in case they redirect and grab your wrist or if maybe someone grabs you from behind

You are correct that Yang and some Chen styles do a pull-back after a punch.
The Chen style that I study does not do it.

As for pull are you talking about "Cai"(Pull down/Pluck) or "Lu"(Pull back)?


Roll Back - Lu

Lu Ching is receiving and collecting energy, or inward receiving energy.

Form movements: Grasping the Sparrow's Tail


Pull Down - Tsai or Cai

Tsai Ching is grabbing energy.
Form movements: Needle at Sea Bottom.


13 Gates of Tai Chi. (http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/powers13.htm)

Hope this helps.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by delibandit
The problem with sparring in Taiji is that to apply the skills in "real time" would mean serious injury to a sparring partner. Just the other night I was cautioned by my Shifu while practicing. The movement I was applying could easily break my opponents arm he said. He asked me to slow it down a bit to prevent an accidental injury to my partner.


Originally posted by Syd
Taiji is very difficult to spar because the kind of technique is in so close and it's over so quickly because the strikes are all kill shots or arm breaks performed literally in fractions of a second.

I know people who say "oh spare me the my arts too deadly to perform crap" but they obviously haven't trained in martial Taijiquan and don't realize what this would be asking! I wouldn't mind just once to have a trained martial Taiji practioner actually take on one of these guys but sadly the dude wouldn't be around to realize his mistake after the fact. I would say god help anyone who is on the recieving end of anybody who knows their combat Taiji... goodnight sweet prince is all that comes to mind.

It is any wonder the guy doesn't think Tai Chi practitioners can fight?

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

nznickle.

May I ask who your teacher is and what Chen style he teaches?

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by nznickle
Dr Chu, Old Frame.

Thanks, for the info.

[Chris_McKinley]

looking up,

Yes, it does mean all three. It also means dealing with your own move not "doing" what it was supposed to do. Basically, I've found that any time anyone gets in a fight for real, Murphy shows up. You won't get me to believe that any master, grandmaster, Grand Poobah, or whatever, is going to look anything but unchoreographed in a real combat situation. How you deal with WHEN your techniques fail, not IF they do, is what keeps you alive in a real fight.

I teach my students that they never make mistakes in Baguazhang. Now, obviously, that statement is absurd on its face. However, acting as though it were true is the key to recovery skill. In other words, anything you do, whether successful or not, you act as though that's exactly what you wanted to have happen and flow from there. A very simple example: if you overshoot your punch to his face and miss, you fold into an elbow strike there instead. It's about flowing with what "is" rather than what we wished would have been.

[Shooter]

Looking up, recovery is micro and macro. Look at how IMAs are internalized. Neutrality

[looking_up]

Bruce and Chris,

That gives me a lot to think about.

'It's about flowing with what "is" rather than what we wished would have been.'

I'm working on that. It's hard.

[backbreaker]

[i]Originally posted by 8gates


Any "real time" sparring with a partner is better then "just" solo practice. [/B] This is wrong. Sparring is obviously important to applying tchniques well especially againt equally skilled opponents, but not as important as correct technique. Sparring will not mean that you know all the profound truths of combat or that you can't be shown something new from a different style you haven't already seen . This leads to people claiming internal and external styles have no differece , or are based on the same energy . If you spar all the time without proper technique , you will still suck against someone who spars little but knows proper technique. I have seen on the internet that some aspects of fajin are basically only totally known by a few people . I've just seen way too much talk by ignorant people who are quick to criticize others they don't understand , or they can't see exactly how the people are good . Like redirecting a punch will be better than slapping a punch in a form, in training , or in sparring . These people claim that a style that "rages" , or has rage energy, will desroy your average taiji expert because he doesn't spar, and any bjj will easily take down even a good taiji fighter maybe even chen masters . I think internal energy and proper technique is more important.

[GeneChing]

Why can't Tai Chi masters fight anymore? READ The Struggle for the Soul of Tai Chi Chuan (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1581) by Alan Ludmer

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/8938_Soul-of-Tai-Chi-Chuan_Lead.jpg