Why don't you practice for gun assaults? [Archive]

Water Dragon

10-16-2003, 07:21 PM

I predict that the BS on this thread will reach massive levels. To start it off, a true story. This guy I knew from high school was talking on his cell phone in a parking lot this summer. Another guy sneaks up and blows the bottom half of his face off with a 12 gauge from about 1 1/2 feet away. How ya gonna defend something like that?

SanSoo Student

10-16-2003, 07:32 PM

Unless your superman, you can't really defend yourself against a gun attack.

Black Jack

10-16-2003, 08:16 PM

So your saying don't learn any firearm disarmament techniques??

Firearm disarmament techniques are used during a close range confrontation when you are unarmed or you are armed and do not have time to withdraw and present your weapon and need to buy some time to arm yourself. The goal is not necessarily always to get control of the opponent's weapon through joint manipulations.

The reason I honestly believe a number of schools don't do firearms training is because it turns a lot of the average sheeple off. It takes some of the mystical and romance out of martial arts training and brings it back down to the real.

shaolin kungfu

10-16-2003, 08:40 PM

When presented with the problem of an attacker weilding a firearm, follow these easy to remember steps...

step 1: When it becomes apparent that the attacker has a firearm, promptly shlt/plss your pants.

step 2: When attacker asks for money/wallet/car keys/ first born, hand it to them.

step 3: when/if the attacker lets you go, go home and wash shlt/plss from your pants

note: step 3 must be performed as quickly as possible. If you wait, you may end up with stains.

Ikken Hisatsu

10-17-2003, 01:29 AM

the general reason most people dont teach gun defense is because there is not a lot you can do to defend against it. the best thing you can do is everything the guy with the gun tells you to do. unless he is obviously going to kill you no matter what, but if hes that crazy he would of shot you as soon as he saw you.

plus of course, not everywhere is a gun ridden sh*thole like america :D

BentMonk

10-17-2003, 04:27 AM

The only thing trying to defend against a gun is going to get you is shot. The crap you see in the movies only works in the movies. I really think any style that teaches otherwise is instilling a false sense of confidence in their students that will get them killed. Live in reality guys, it's the only thing that's always here. Peace and Happy Training.

apoweyn

10-17-2003, 06:43 AM

I think the real reason that gun disarmament isn't taught more is because of the lack of experienced teachers.

How many of us, even seasoned martial artists, have any real level of experience with firearms? Shooting them? Probably quite a few. Retaining them? The cops on the board probably. Gunfights? The cops (again) and soldiers on the board. Disarming them? The cops MAYBE.

Who do you turn to as an experienced authority on gun disarms? I doubt any of my teachers have ever actually successfully disarmed a gun-wielding attacker.

Bludgeons you can train fairly readily. It's not even that difficult to find teachers who have faced that situation in real life. Knives are another step up in difficulty. And there's a corresponding proliferation of unrealistic knife defense out there. Then there's guns. Another step up.

At that point, you're not looking for your typical martial arts teacher. You're looking for... what? Weapons and tactics instructors for the armed forces? For SWAT?

[shrug]

Suntzu

10-17-2003, 06:56 AM

Gun violence and disarms..........

true stories......

club parking lot..... drunk teens... agruement insues..... one kid runs to his car pulls out an AK-47.... shoot in the air... arguement is over..... for now... kid and friend go back to car and hang out... why the police don't come... i have no clue... later that night.... a guy runs up on the kids friend(the bigger dude) says a few choice word and shoots the big dude in the back.... big dude confined to a wheelchair....... would a disarm have worked?..... doubt it...

crowd of friends on corner... maybe or maybe not doing something illegal.... cars pulls up.... automatic rifle points out the window and shoots at crowd....

guy gets off bus.... 2 people walk up to him pulls gun and demands money... disarm one and get shot by the other or give up the dough?.... tuff decision...

brothernumber9

10-17-2003, 07:24 AM

as much as any other reason why gun defense isn't taught so much is because most people will never see that kind of situation. Joe average from the suburb is most likely never going to get carjacked or assaulted with a gun. True, people should be at least aware and that maybe most victims on the news now are a Joe/Jane average but that is still the rare occurrence. I don't think I live in a "hood" (Seat Pleasant, just outside of SE D.C). I have friends that think I do and others that live in what I would call a "hood" agree with myself. There are definitely some shady corners (shocker where the liquor stores are) but I think thats anywhere you go. I could be wrong about all this since probably everyone knows at least one person thats been stuck up. I know several but have only seen it twice fortunately no one got shot (at least not while I was there, and I sure wasn't gonna wait around). In the two times I saw it, the people knew each other (at least by face) and the ones that drew in each case were slangin. I'm sure its worse in at least one city in almost every state, well I guess I didn't think this through like I thought, I guess I better revisit gun/knife defenses.

Judge Pen

10-17-2003, 07:24 AM

There's no martial arts defense against a drive by situation. If someone pulls a gun demading money or property the defense is give it to them. It's only stuff and you can acquire more. If you honestly feel that they are going to shoot you, then, and only then would gun disarming techniqes come into play becasue you have nothing to loose and everything to gain.

Trouble is, I don't know any qualifed instructors for this type of disarming. There may be a few out there, but they tend to be ex-military, SWAT types and I don't feel like putting up with the para-militarty training to get to the disarming techniques that may enhance my current training.

KC Elbows

10-17-2003, 07:33 AM

chief of police in KC once recommended that if anyone gets held up with a gun, they grab the gun and get control of it. Of course, at the time, we were the meth capital of the US.

Anyway, I think the truth of the matter is that most schools don't train that because most teachers don't own guns. Secondarily, many don't know good responses, HOW to teach it, but I don't think that's the main reason there's not more of it out there, because, clearly, many martial arts teachers have no problem teaching things they're clueless on. So I think it's largely an equipment issue.

Shaolin-Do

10-17-2003, 07:35 AM

Only way to fight a bullet is with a bullet. Guns suxor. Aint much you can do when someone pulls one... Doing what the agressor says would be the best bet...
"door when somebody rings the doorbell, without asking who it is or looking. There's been some recent home invasions here, and each case the victim just opened the door."

People around here just kick the door in. People round here also much prefer the "pistol whip" to shooting. They think waving a gun around makes them look tough.

Judge Pen

10-17-2003, 07:37 AM

I own guns. Have all my life. That's why I'd give them my money and not do anything stupid unless I felt like I was going to get shot anyway. Same thing with knives. When we talk about basic knife defense in class we tell the students that the chances are you will get cut regardless. Knowing that, this may help you from getting killed.

"People around here just kick the door in. People round here also much prefer the "pistol whip" to shooting. They think waving a gun around makes them look tough."

SD, maybe, but I'm not willing to call that bluff, are you?

apoweyn

10-17-2003, 07:38 AM

Well, it's pretty clear that most gun scenarios aren't going to provide the opportunity for a disarmament. (Nevermind the fact that, generally, it's not going to be worth the risk. Wallets are easily replaced and getting shot hurts.)

But then, following that line of logic, how reasonable is self defense training at all?

Do any of the knife defenses you know include getting the back of your head shoved into a brick wall while you're taking a p-ss and getting stabbed in the back? That seems as likely a scenario to me as the face off (knife fencing as Black Jack calls it).

How about training defense against multiple attackers? After a few drinks? At 2 in the morning?

My point is that maybe self defense training isn't really designed to address the majority of situations. Maybe it's only designed to address the minority of situations in which you actually have 1) reason enough to believe that it's your best option and 2) the opportunity to act.

And maybe that's enough.

Stuart B.

Shaolin-Do

10-17-2003, 07:42 AM

Actually, now that I think about it, most people around here do give you chance to diarm them. They wave the gun around a bit before pointing it anywhere. Stupid ass highschool kids mostly.

Im bout to start getting some really really good knife training done... After Ill most likely begin to carry a blade on me. Im not about pulling weapons, but if someone else wants to be a sh!t about it... :eek:

Judge Pen

10-17-2003, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by apoweyn

My point is that maybe self defense training isn't really designed to address the majority of situations. Maybe it's only designed to address the minority of situations in which you actually have 1) reason enough to believe that it's your best option and 2) the opportunity to act.

And maybe that's enough.

Stuart B.

The perfect post. I can quit posting and go home because that summed up why we should train more sussicntly then I could have ever hoped to myself. Apowen, you're my new hero.

SD: Thoses who carry blades don't tell others that they are carrying. ;)

apoweyn

10-17-2003, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by Judge Pen

The perfect post. I can quit posting and go home because that summed up why we should train more sussicntly then I could have ever hoped to myself. Apowen, you're my new hero.

SD: Thoses who carry blades don't tell others that they are carrying. ;)

Wow. Er, thanks. :)

Shaolin-Do

10-17-2003, 07:51 AM

Of course I wouldnt say I gots a blade.
;)
When we do "reality training" we take 10 shots as quick as we can and go work throws and knife disarms on wet grass, in the dark.
:eek:

;)

FatherDog

10-17-2003, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by apoweyn
I think the real reason that gun disarmament isn't taught more is because of the lack of experienced teachers.

How many of us, even seasoned martial artists, have any real level of experience with firearms? Shooting them? Probably quite a few. Retaining them? The cops on the board probably. Gunfights? The cops (again) and soldiers on the board. Disarming them? The cops MAYBE.

Who do you turn to as an experienced authority on gun disarms? I doubt any of my teachers have ever actually successfully disarmed a gun-wielding attacker.

Bludgeons you can train fairly readily. It's not even that difficult to find teachers who have faced that situation in real life. Knives are another step up in difficulty. And there's a corresponding proliferation of unrealistic knife defense out there. Then there's guns. Another step up.

At that point, you're not looking for your typical martial arts teacher. You're looking for... what? Weapons and tactics instructors for the armed forces? For SWAT?

[shrug]

apoweyn has shot the correct with a double-tap in center mass.

Black Jack

10-17-2003, 09:10 AM

Sometimes its not just about money. Sometimes other goals can be involved. Goals like abduction, rape, murder. Krav Maga teaches some excellent firearm defenses spanning a large specturm as does ww2 era style combative material.

Firearms are a part of the world. Neglecting to understand that fact is a bad decision IMO.

Suntzu

10-17-2003, 09:20 AM

But then, following that line of logic, how reasonable is self defense training at all? good question.... i don't even consider myself training for self defense reason.... purely for fun.... sport.... and to keep myself form looking like these rotund cubicle dwellers that i'm surrounded by...... it just so happens that my training MIGHT get me out of a tuff spot... also thinks to my training... 2am and drunk doesn't happen much anymore.... so that's one less senario i need to think about........

Shaolin-Do

10-17-2003, 09:29 AM

"2am and drunk doesn't happen much anymore"
Yeah, gotta agree with that. But its usually 2 AM and stoned out of my face. Lot less belligerant than drunk that way however.

Suntzu

10-17-2003, 09:37 AM

But its usually 2 AM and stoned out of my face. Lot less belligerant than drunk that way however. very true...... if i knew what u were talking about.....

apoweyn

10-17-2003, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by Black Jack
Sometimes its not just about money. Sometimes other goals can be involved. Goals like abduction, rape, murder.

Right. That's what I was thinking when I wrote that you needed 1) reason enough to believe that it's your best option. If passing over your wallet solves the problem, best to do that. If it's another of these scenarios, though, obviously you're going to choose fighting back over getting murdered. (Regrettably, the two aren't mutually exclusive. That's the big argument FOR learning gun defenses, as you said.)

Stuart B.

rogue

10-17-2003, 11:12 AM

You guys are covering the subject point on.

ap excellent posts.

Who do you turn to as an experienced authority on gun disarms? I doubt any of my teachers have ever actually successfully disarmed a gun-wielding attacker.
That's a big problem. Most guys teaching what to do against a gun aren't even shooters and teach some horrible stuff. then there are the guys who don't know what to do and embrace this by saying it's a sure way to get killed.

What I've learned: The mechanics of good gun disarms are really simple, or should be. The big thing is to practice. Paintball guns work OK for learning to clear, disarms you're better learning with a good rubber replica with the trigger guard cut off.

When I think it's important to know what to do in a gun assault.
1. Things aren't going well for the assaulter.
2. If the assaulter has his finger on the trigger and is shaking and waving it around or using it as a blunt intrument.
3. They are going to tie you up
4. They want to kidnap you.
5. They want to kidnap a family member.
6. The list could go on and on.

Black Jack

10-17-2003, 11:58 AM

The mechanics of good gun disarms are really simple, or should be. The big thing is to practice. Paintball guns work OK for learning to clear, disarms you're better learning with a good rubber replica with the trigger guard cut off.-Rogue

Thumbs up to that. I think simple is the key. Simple but not stupid.

Some of the most simple ideas you see people use from a frontal situation is clearing the body from the weapons line to target and grabbing the firearm around the muzzle with all you got and rotating the weapon toward the opponent while pulling it back or up and out of the attackers grasp. I prefer clockwise as this tends to lock up the attackers trigger finger in the guard and is very painfull and will result in a broken finger if a training gun with a guard is used going full blast. Something you should not do.

Add into that the fact that you have two usefull free legs to kick, stomp, sweep and knee with. If its a one hand grab you also have a free hand to elbow, strike and claw with. The same should be stated about the training partner playing the attacker. He should also be using those elements to fight back with so he can get a clear line to target. I have a pic of Dempsey training a coast guardsmen in a gun disarm. Dempsey twists the gun around the muzzle clockwise while sending out a right cross to the mandible.

There is no perfect answer. I just think you should practice something.

rogue

10-17-2003, 12:50 PM

When I work with someone I make sure they can clear before they try to disarm. Most new guys go right for the disarm during the clear. Spot on about the finger in the trigger guard, broken finger and almost a sure bet the gun will go off. But then the gun will almost always go off and it's just a matter of when, where and which direction.

Other things...
1) people who turn with their upper body and not from the waist during a clear. Simple yet common mistake.

2) not training what the heck to do with the gun if you get the disarm. Is the gun functional, can you shoot it, will you shoot it if you need to.

apoweyn

10-20-2003, 07:33 AM

Thanks Rogue.

It's a good thread. So I'm bumping it back up. And once I've gotten some more caffeine into me, perhaps I'll even be able to think of something constructive to say.

...

Hope springs eternal.

Stuart B.

Shaolin-Do

10-20-2003, 07:52 AM

Yes, good thread. Just wanted to reiterate the point that simple works. On gun and knife disarms, fancy sh!t will just get you cut, or shot. I havent really worked gun disarms but Ive played with the knife a bit. Another thing to keep in mind when working gun disarms, is the possibility of another person being in the area, potentially in the line of fire while you are disarming the aggressor.

Mr Punch

10-20-2003, 08:02 AM

Why don't I? Never seen one... except a wonky 22 air rifle my mate and I used to shoot tins off a fence with, and those in the hands of LEOs.

Originally posted by Black Jack
Firearms are a part of the world. Neglecting to understand that fact is a bad decision IMO. I understand the fact that firearms are a part of your world.

Otherwise it comes down to Ap's post about who's gonna be good to teach you. It's not that I've deliberately shunned firearm responses but as a busy man at work, with barely enough time to train seriously at the moment it's so low on my list of priorities as to be negligible.

Plus, I know for a fact Krav teachers and WW2 combat teachers don't grow on trees! :D

As you say BJ, it's useful to keep it simple. Having been in several spots of real life grief in the ****hole where I lived for a good few years, I know what it feels like to freeze when faced with say, a chain, a bottle, a knife, or a large gang... Now I have largely got through the freeze response, but this wasn't through any amount of training: unfortunately it was through experience of getting the **** kicked out of me when I froze!!!

So to me keeping it simple is just working on what I know works... in my case, disarms taught and drilled with my police instructor aiki sensei. I don't think I need extra training to tell me to stay the **** away from the end with the hole in it... :rolleyes: ! Maybe the experts will tell me different...