Why no respect....

[Suntzu]

... for San Shou?????....

i'm reading around... mma.tv... sherdog.... etc... everywhere they are bashing san shou... bashing Cung Le... saying the sport is boring... the rules are stupid(i remember the same being said for mma)... no one would pay for a PPV card... i understand that the sport is still young in the US... is the only way San Shou is gonna get respect is for Mike Norman to drop Duane Ludwig on his head.... or Pat Barry to KO Carter Williams in Las Vegas.... will san shou fighters only be able to make a name for themselves thru the MMA pipeline of KOTC... Ring of Fire and the like?.... i mean wtf?

[Shaolin-Do]

Most the MMA guys are too busy with the ***** shaking in the arses to think about what they say before they say it.
Most kung fu guys are too.
Sh!t most peopl in general are.
:rolleyes:

[ShaolinTiger00]

1.) most mma guys think muay thai is the supreme striking art.

2.) san shou is not widely known by the American mma public.

3.) for every guy that bashes it, there are 10 who think it's cool as hell

4.) Cung's opponents as of late have not made for spectacular fights.

5.) people just love to bash each other on the net

6.) people fear us :D

7.) Where the hell is Marvin Perry???????

[Shaolin-Do]

IME people who bash other styles generally are ignorant to what they are talking about...
:eek:

[ShaolinTiger00]

I'll usually agree with that thought train SD, but when you've had experience in an art then "bash".... ;)

[Shaolin-Do]

Oh I know, I bash on TKD all the time. I gots a BB in it. ;)
Although I will say, my TKD instructor was pretty d@mn good with his hands. Id like to go spar him again sometime soon.

[Suntzu]

Marvin Perry vs Cro Cop?!?!?........ whoooooaa......
IME people who bash other styles generally are ignorant to what they are talking about... i love the "i've only seen Cung's last 2 fights....... san shou is boring.... it has no good athletes.....":rolleyes: ....

[Shaolin-Do]

JAMA in relation to MMA called cung "pound for pound the best fighter in the universe."
;)

[ShaolinTiger00]

As good as Marvin is.. He's no Cro- Cop. yet..

[Ralphie]

I know how it could gain respect:

1) Start feeding your guys roids and pain killers
2) make .wmv clips of edited "non-boring" parts of fights with Pantera playing in the background.
3) Have your fighters who are hopped up on goofballs beat the crap out of lower tier mma and Thai guys.
4) Post the .wmv clips on different sites.
5) Use the clips as evidence of San Shou's superiority.
6) Put mma down, and scoff at things like the "flying triangle".

There you go, that's the recipe to gain respect from mulletheads in the midwest who wrassled a little in high school, and were in a "backyard wrestling" video as the guy who lights the prop table on fire right before the masked kid drops an elbow from the second story.

[Volcano Admim]

they dont respect cos you just do kickboxing + a few wrestling and call it a whole new chinese martial art or whatever

and MT is cooler

[brothernumber9]

get a clip of the 65kilo(i think) fight between the China B team fighter and the Korean kick boxing movie star dude at the 95 world wushu championships. That was the one of the most spectacular sanshou fights I've ever seen. I don't know where you can get footage, but if you can post it.

[Suntzu]

As good as Marvin is.. He's no Cro- Cop. yet.. i know.... but if all were equal.... it would be a great fight.... Marvin vs McDonald????.... vs Bob Sapp...lol....

Ralphie has the right idea.... Ross... Guru.... make it happen.... :D

VA has bent over and been sodomized by the incorrect...... dry... and loved every minute of it.......

9.... for real???.... i'd like to see it myself....

[fa_jing]

Perry is a bit lighter in weight than Cro -cop, no?

[lkfmdc]

Because San Shou/San Da is the PERFECT art to **** off EVERYONE

MMA guys are basicly zombies, they only know four things
1. BJJ is best on the ground
2. Muay Thai is best standing
3. EVERYTHING ELSE must "suck"
4. When confronted with evidence that contradicts the above, become Cleopartra, Queen of DENIAL

Look at everytime a BJJ guy gets smacked around and look at the excuses.... They nearly had to be admitted to the emergency room for heart failure when the San Da guys TRASHED the Muay Thai guys...

The also have to be some of the dumbest bunch of geeks in the world today, basing an entire argument on ONE MATCH they saw

On MMA.tv a bunch of us listed guys Cung Le had KO'd. The Mongolian guy just KO"d a lumpinee Muay Thai champion IN THAILAND. The guy Cung KO'd in under a minute in Draka was a shootboxing champion who had also trashed a Muay Thai champion in Thailand. Arne that he fought in SHidokan is one of the best Kyokushinkai and Muay Tha fighters in the world.

One guy's resonse was the old 5th grade "no it didn't" argument. Since he hadn't seen the matches, they didn't happen, real genius :rolleyes:

As for the so called "traditional" crowd here, well, you've been here for it all. Basicly, a lot of it comes down to a fundamental denial that while they claim to be training to fight, they aren't actually able to fight. Today, kung fu is literally the laughing stock of the martial arts world (another reason teh not so smart MMA crowd really HATES San Shou because they can't comprehend a Chinese based martial art being good for fighting)...

The more intelligent MMA people are seeing San Shou as a legit martial art, the so called traditional people would like to have that respect directed towards THEM....

[fa_jing]

"Today, kung fu is literally the laughing stock of the martial arts world "


I have to take issue with that statement. I don't frequent MMA.TV, so, I don't count those freaks. I think actual, knowledgeable Martial Artists with a few years experience or more have a reasonable level of respect for Chinese Martial arts. As well, people who don't have a clue other than watching Kung Fu movies from the 70's, respect CMA. So who exactly are you referring to? I know that you wander in MA circles, who are you hearing this from? Or is it really a bunch of ex-highschool wrestlers??

what is "the martial arts world" and who in that world is laughing at Kung Fu?

[ShaolinTiger00]

have a reasonable level of respect for Chinese Martial arts.

Sorry, we don't. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just poining out the cold hard facts.


what is "the martial arts world" and who in that world is laughing at Kung Fu?

People whom actually fight.

MMA, Submission Grappling, Brazillian jiu jutsu, Catch as Can wrestling, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, San Shou, Full Contact Karate, "Dog Brothers" style weapons fighting..

[Suntzu]

please Osama don't hi-jack the thread with the 'tradtional' mess again..... the point i'm getting to is how can san shou get its respect?... do we have to fight outside the comfort zone waving the the san shou flag and spitting on our downed opponent?... do we just keep doing our own thing and hope someone like ESPN....MSG... Budweiser... comes along and finds it 'interesting' enuff to bank roll?.......

and if THAT above isn't interesting enuff for discussion...... most kung fu school suck.....

"Dog Brothers" at quick glance i thot that was 'Dog-something else":D

[ShaolinTiger00]

how can san shou get its respect?...

Joining the USKBA was a huge step in the right direction IMNSHO.

[ShaolinTiger00]

lmao @ calling him "Osama" for hijacking teh thread! :D

and you'll forgive me if I didn;t knwo what the proper name of the full contact stick & knife fighting was. I know the Dog Brothers aren't the only ones who train in that method but they were the ones that popped into my mind.

[fa_jing]

True that the ONLY people I've seen put down Kung Fu in print are you, sifu Ross, and JKD people.

And my own Sifu, actually. LOLOL, since I always take the other side here on the main forum. Well he respects it, values it, but feels there are better ways to train.

But among those people who actually fight, is it simple stylistic chauvinism? Beating on the drum of their own style??

In other words, if you take a competitive wrestler, will he put down full-contact Kung Fu, but say that full-contact Karate is valid?? Huh?

remember, San Shou IS full-contact Kung-Fu.
San Shou IS Chinese martial arts. So you can hardly say that you don't respect CMA and then turn around and practice San Shou.

[fa_jing]

I thought he was calling me Osama because my last name is Laden.....

[old jong]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


Sorry, we don't. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just poining out the cold hard facts.



:rolleyes:

[Suntzu]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


Joining the USKBA was a huge step in the right direction IMNSHO. i agree..... will we get cool Viper gear fight shorts like KoSD in China get the cool Red Bull shorts?!?!... and not the MMA undies.... i don't get down like that.....

fa_jing... why do u hate America?....... and my thread :D

[ShaolinTiger00]

True that the ONLY people I've seen put down Kung Fu in print are you, sifu Ross, and JKD people.

Is that because we are your only exposure to full contact combat sports? If you hang out with "paper tigers" you're not going to hear anything contrary are you?

Same with you old jing.. :rolleyes: yourself.


But among those people who actually fight, is it simple stylistic chauvinism? Beating on the drum of their own style??

No It's a wake-up alarm that's been going off since 1993 and for some reason you guys just haven't heard it! (drunk on chi?)

[old jong]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Today, kung fu is literally the laughing stock of the martial arts world

The martial arts world is a lot bigger than what you concieve of it.Do you really think the sport fighting circle (sometimes it could be called "circus") and some morons opinions on the internet have some real value?...

Those who have no respect for others with different views deserve no respect.

[old jong]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00

Same with you old jing.. :rolleyes: yourself.


Rolls used that line once!...:rolleyes:

[Suntzu]

and some morons opinions on the internet have some real value?... it does when those morons contribute to you getting or not getting paid..... those morons buy fight tickets... PPV specials.... products that companies PAY $$$ to advertise.... which a tiny wennie part of all that $$$ gets in the fighters hands.........

[old jong]

Originally posted by Suntzu
it does when those morons contribute to you getting or not getting paid..... those morons buy fight tickets... PPV specials.... products that companies PAY $$$ to advertise.... which a tiny wennie part of all that $$$ gets in the fighters hands.........

It's a business.And when the great fighters are past their prime....To the waste basket!...It interest 1% of the population anyway.

[fa_jing]

Sorry Suntzu for the threadjack, but it is relavent because guys like ST00 seem to think that the best way to promote San Shou is to downplay it's association with CMA.....


To ST00 - thank you for phrasing your remarks in the form of questions, rather than accusing me directly....it saved me from getting annoyed....


Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


Is that because we are your only exposure to full contact combat sports?



Nope. I've fought full contact, nothing special but you'll see the clips soon. My teacher has had a much longer ring fighting career than, I think, anyone on this forum. Like I said, he (and I) prefer to juice up the Kung Fu with pads and gloves and mats, as well as import some other methods that are not Chinese in origin. Nevertheless, I am detecting a basic difference in attitude and respectfulness towards the traditional ways between him and you. Perhaps it is just the way that you like to shake things up on the internet. I'm sure 2 pages down we'll get you to admit, as you have before, that you love your Jow Ga sifu and that there are real good Kung Fu guys in the States, just very very few.


If you hang out with "paper tigers" you're not going to hear anything contrary are you?


I don't hang out with paper tigers. My exposure to real retro-style TMA comes from Master Kwan, it's his kwoon we trained at- in China, he broke nearly every bone in his body training, and sat in a horse stance for a year before they taught him anything. He did compete in some kickboxing comps as well as appeared in a couple HK flicks. Bad, bad mutherf.


Same with you old jing.. :rolleyes: yourself.


Old Jong's second response is 100% correct as far as I am concerned.


No It's a wake-up alarm that's been going off since 1993 and for some reason you guys just haven't heard it! (drunk on chi?) [/B]

True that most martial artists need a wake-up call. Your input is appreciated, but you need to tone down your rhetoric - it is not logically consistent.

[ShaolinTiger00]

The martial arts world is a lot bigger than what you concieve of it.Do you really think the sport fighting circle (sometimes it could be called "circus") and some morons opinions on the internet have some real value?...

Let me tell you a little something about your "martial art world"

It's a place full of eggshell thin egos, Meglo-maniacal con men, Super inflated Titles, Grandiose pretenses, Arrogant, Naive, Foolish, Superstitious, Archaic,

It's full of bull**** and people who can't deal with reality so they polish their tender insecurities with kicking and punching air filled villans and would be bullies..

The Truth is known Old jing.. you're just in denial. at least you have company.


the best way to promote San Shou is to downplay it's association with CMA.

Not true. But aligning it with TCMA has done nothing but hurt the sport..

[fa_jing]

before I create more controversy, let me clarify that I only studied with Kwan Sifu for 6 months - but I continued to train at his kwoon on weekends with my sifu and see the guy from time to time. In fact, he has a respectful attitude towards ring/sport fighting styles and their practicioners, something that should be reciprocated.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I urinate on your respect..:rolleyes:

[old jong]

Bah! nevermind!:rolleyes:

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
I urinate on your respect..:rolleyes:

let the record stand as such, then. Hasta Nunca, d!ckwad

[old jong]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
I urinate on your respect..:rolleyes:

Exactly what to expect from a low foreheaded primate.

[ShaolinTiger00]

http://www.realfighting.com/0702/danaherframe.html


Sorry SunTzu, this plane was hijaked by the boxcutter wielding incorrect and we're going to have to take them down to prevent further damage.

"Let's Roll."

[lkfmdc]

Did you know that Cleopatra studied traditional Kung Fu? No, really, it is true.... That's why they called her "Queen of Denile" :D

Look at this forum every day just for a glimpse of the crap so called traditional people spout off...

So much "talking" about fighting and virtually NO fighting at all

Aikido people are usually content to "harmonize" with the world the way that their founder wanted them to. Judoka are usually (with exceptions) happy to play in their own world and do their sport. Of all the Chinese martial arts, at least a lot of Tai Chi places accept they are just doing it for health and don't take the "deadly chi blast" seriously...

Here, virtually every day, people with virutally NO fighting experience lecture on the topic and give advice!

HOw San Shou/San Da has earned what respect it has?

http://message.axkickboxing.com/images/user_uploaded/lkfmdc/richard=thai.jpg

Nuff said

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fa_jing
I thought he was calling me Osama because my last name is Laden.....

LOL, I meant to tell you my story about that... When you sent me that jow last year, there was some powder on the box, and I saw the last name laden... I didn't open it for two days, as I forgot that was your last name!

[KC Elbows]

Did you know that Cleopatra studied traditional Kung Fu? No, really, it is true.... That's why they called her "Queen of Denile"

That's Little Richard calling. He says your joke stole his gay, and he wants it back.

[SifuAbel]

The difference here is between TCMAists that don't fight and those who do. TCMA itself is not at issue here.

San shou to me has always been about CMA fighting. Most, if not all, of you who do San shou come from CMA backgrounds.

"the best way to promote San Shou is to downplay it's association with CMA."

You can't say that it not happening and you can't say that aligning itself with TCMA has hurt it. To say it has aligned itself with kung fu is not accurate, it came from CMA, It was never anything separate to begin with. Its not logical. If tcma hurt it, its because san shou players want to change their image to resemble MMA, instead of trying to project their own.


It seems San shou wants to divorce itself from the crap schools( and there are many, that can't be denied). This is understandable. Except they are doing it by trying to be like the "cool" kids and jump on the bandwagon with all the other fighting venues and dissing their nerdy "cousins". Its kind of childish. The personal attacks are childish, too. I'm trying to turn a new leaf and stick to the discussion and not go high school all over the point.

Unfortunately, when you lump all those crappy schools under the umbrella term "traditionalists" you also include all the good schools that do fight. So you get people like me complaining and pointing out that san shou is kung fu.

[SifuAbel]

Oh and to get to the actual topic, pre-hijack.

San shou needs just 3 things.

1. It needs better marketing.

2. It needs to be given more prestige, aka better marketing.

3. And it needs more coverage, aka better marketing.

Its doesn't matter what its aligned to. You give the average person a reason to think San shou is what to watch, that and only that is going to bring in the fans, the money and later the respect.

Aligning it kung fu after only increases the mystique factor. Fans eat that up.

[lkfmdc]

- "It seems San shou wants to divorce itself from the crap schools( and there are many, that can't be denied). This is understandable" -

Abel seems to have stolen the correct :)

[SifuAbel]

well, If you're going to quote me then include this.

"Unfortunately, when you lump all those crappy schools under the umbrella term "traditionalists" you also [tend to] include all the good schools that do fight. So you get people like me complaining and pointing out that san shou is kung fu."

[diego]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


Sorry, we don't. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just poining out the cold hard facts.



People whom actually fight.

MMA, Submission Grappling, Brazillian jiu jutsu, Catch as Can wrestling, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, San Shou, Full Contact Karate, "Dog Brothers" style weapons fighting..

well most of those are sports i would like to see how good many of these guys are in the realworld such as high level bodygaurds etc...not saying kungfu has high level bodygaurds i'm just saying the socalled realworld fighters we here about i'm betting aren't all that real....how many real fights has royce gracie had agianst opponnents bigger and more skilled than he that are trying to rip his head off and rape his loved ones...just generalizing

also Dog brothers...the guy in my avatar harry wu one of his students has a student who is a member of dog brothers and he says all the hop gar kung fu he learned he knows it is very usefull so you're a liar:)

just playing with you but i'm not lieng
peace

[Internal Boxer]

diego, cheers for the entertainment :rolleyes:

[diego]

MMA, Submission Grappling, Brazillian jiu jutsu, Catch as Can wrestling, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, San Shou, Full Contact Karate,

well ib besides dog bros the rest are just sports...okay boxing is a fighting art right...lol

gaurantie you mike tyson in his prime would get rocked by a skinny dude with a knife...you disagree?...why

[Internal Boxer]

MMA, Submission Grappling, Brazillian jiu jutsu, Catch as Can wrestling, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai.

Ok bud if they are just sports, why don't prove your theory, go down to your local clubs where they do the above arts and throw down a challenge telling them you will kick their arse with your dim-mak claw!!

Its very easy to make sweeping statements of what is or is not good on the street without actually putting yourself in the line of fire.

as for san shou and full contact Karate I would not like to comment on their effectiveness on the street as I have had no personal experience of these arts.

[Merryprankster]

Um....

Mike Tyson is a bad match up for anybody. Blinding fast hands and a bad attitude, plus knockout power, plus resilience. Obviously the guy with the knife has evened the score, but only if he knows what he's doing--cause if you're close enough to stab with a 5 inch blade, you're probably close enough to get KTFO. If he misses a guy like Mike or doesn't land a truly disabling blow he could be in a world of hurt.

A better question might be--how many people would like to be staring into the face of a guy who's "been there, done that" many times and has had some pretty good showings?

Yeah, I know the street is different and certain things might get you into trouble, blah blah blah, but these "sport" (said derisively because we all know that any 'sport' is automatically inferior to REAL MA's) people had to have a specific mental mindset to compete and win--toughness, confidence, a general fight plan, experience in overcoming the jitters, and a willingness to keep pushing until you succeed...and once the fight is on, it's a FIGHT--a physical confrontation --a place where they've been many times before. Self-defense has already failed at that point.

That said, we're never going to find out who the best streetfighter in the world is. Every time they pop up, somebody shanks them or fills their bodies with lead.

[old jong]

" Yeah, I know the street is different and certain things might get you into trouble, blah blah blah, but these "sport" (said derisively because we all know that any 'sport' is automatically inferior to REAL MA's)"

Just my IMHO on this comment: I have absolutely no doubts about the effectiveness of "sport" fighting in any circumstances.In my view,there are no more "real" MA's.Some have the sport section,some don't.It is only a question of personal choices and preferences.Some people are not attracted to the sport format and there is nothing wrong in this.

O.K. Some tma guys are snob about sport styles ,I concede. But many sport fighters are complete jerks about the issue and are overly agressive.

What will we do or think about this in 20 years?....

[Merryprankster]

But many sport fighters are complete jerks about the issue and are overly agressive.

It's funny you should say this because most of the sport fighters I've met/trained with are as nice as you get. They aren't aggro at all. In fact, I've met more guys who train in some sort of TMA and don't do a sport art that think "they're all that."

Heck Tiger Schulmann and his brother practically started two fights at grappling tournaments that I know of, (I was there for both) and I've got a friend in Kenpo who will sit and tell you stories all day long about guys with attitudes because they "know" what they're doing, don't like a call, your looks, your joking comments, *insert issue here* and have never been in a physical confrontation (sport or otherwise) in their lives.

Sport competition has a way of keeping you humble. It attracts its fair share of *******s (honestly, what doesn't?), but most of them get weeded out by the time you get around a little bit because everybody gets their ass whipped by somebody.

In this case, it's an issue of preference. If I have to take elitism in some form, because I agree with you that it exists across the board, then I'll take a sport with some ****y guys, rather than flat out snottiness from people who 99% of the time, have never "walked the walk."

In 20 years what will we think? Honestly that question may not exist. There will be a much lower fence. The truth is that MMA as a format, San Shou as a format--these are the waves of the future. People are going to start arguing about individual fighters rather than styles and overall training methods. People will earn respect through their actual fight records and/or ability to train top-notch students with records - as it should be.

Some may not fight or train fighters--but they'll start admitting it up front. My boxing coach flat out said--"You aren't going to become a pro with me. I don't train pro's I'm not interested. You'll learn the basics and you'll learn them well, and I'll get you some fights when you're ready, if you're interested.

He fills a niche, he knows it and he admits it. I think this dual scenario is where we're headed--the division between fighters (at all appropriate levels of competition) and hobbyist (at all appropriate levels of competition), with everybody understanding that up front.

[old jong]

I did'nt say "all sport fighters are ...Bla bla"...
But,some of them (Many) who post here and other places (They say that they are fighters anyway!) are exactly that.

" In 20 years what will we think? Honestly that question may not exist. There will be a much lower fence. The truth is that MMA as a format, San Shou as a format--these are the waves of the future. People are going to start arguing about individual fighters rather than styles and overall training methods. People will earn respect through their actual fight records and/or ability to train top-notch students with records - as it should be."

Honestly,this is again showing one side of the fence.The sport fighting side and,when you say that..."these are the waves of the future. People are going to start arguing about individual fighters rather than styles and overall training methods."....You are in contradiction with your own idea here!...It is OK if there is no more styles separations only if the sole existing styles are MMA and sanshou.So there will be no more room for different ideas and tastes?....

I always wonder why not simply accept and respect what others are doing.I would not be interrested in fighting in the ring but that does not mean I think those who do it are stupid and low life.

As I said before: The martial arts world is a lot bigger than it's sport side only.there are maybe 10000 TMA's practitioners for 100 MMA's pro and semi-pro fighters.The wave of the future is nowhere where the MMA's propagandists would like us to believe.

[rogue]

In general OJ most guys who train for the ring don't have a problem with traditional fighters and what we do. It's also been my experience that traditional guys and combative guys usually don't have problems with each other or ring fighters either. As long as each is honest about what they do and realizes the strenghts and weakness' of what they do. Personally I would never go to a guy who trains only for ring fighting about self defense. Training, conditioning and technique yup, but not self defense. But then it's also silly to go to the local kata champ and have him coach a fighter for his next bout, but maybe he could help the fighter with being more relaxed and flexible in his movements.

[diego]

Originally posted by Internal Boxer
MMA, Submission Grappling, Brazillian jiu jutsu, Catch as Can wrestling, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai.

Ok bud if they are just sports, why don't prove your theory, go down to your local clubs where they do the above arts and throw down a challenge telling them you will kick their arse with your dim-mak claw!!

Its very easy to make sweeping statements of what is or is not good on the street without actually putting yourself in the line of fire.

as for san shou and full contact Karate I would not like to comment on their effectiveness on the street as I have had no personal experience of these arts.

okay now i wonder if you a troll or real...but anyway i knew you would misread me for some reason.

point is i would rather be the skinny dude with the knife then strictly mike tysons skills...give tyson a knife and let him use his boxing skills...i would rather have philipino knife fighting skills than boxer skills in a knifefight...now reread my post and think about it.

i would love to have royce and all the mma champs skills but in a knifefight i wouldn't rely on my fighting-sport skills alone...i would go seek out some knife fighting maestros from the philipinnes etc...make sence?.

MerryP just answered your post aswell:)
cheers

[diego]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Um....

Mike Tyson is a bad match up for anybody. Blinding fast hands and a bad attitude, plus knockout power, plus resilience. Obviously the guy with the knife has evened the score, but only if he knows what he's doing--cause if you're close enough to stab with a 5 inch blade, you're probably close enough to get KTFO. If he misses a guy like Mike or doesn't land a truly disabling blow he could be in a world of hurt.



obviously i agree with you as you always seem sincere and realistic with how you come across as a scrapper...my statements main point was...would you rather be mike tyson level boxer or would you rather be that unprofessionally trained skinny dude with a knife...who knows what that dude has been through may be a prison knifefight champion with great natural skill etc...my point was all this hoopla we read on the net from socalled tradionalists and non-alike i'm betting peeps who chat like this have never been in a real fight talking about boxing is a fighting art come on...wheras i'm sure tyson being straight ghettoe is prolly pretty handy with a knife...which has nothing to do with his boxing skills

so i just wish peeps would get onsome bruce lee shiat and organize and come up with that total fighting art method...freag we have enough technology and science to make some cool azz shiat if every system got together and blended...you know what i'm saying:)

[fa_jing]

Merry said : It's funny you should say this because most of the sport fighters I've met/trained with are as nice as you get.


Rogue said: In general OJ most guys who train for the ring don't have a problem with traditional fighters and what we do.



So what's up with ShaolinTiger00/Ralek? Huh? Bad example?

And when did I become a TMA????? I trained a modified Wing Chun and JKD for SPORT. SPORT which I ENGAGED in. SPORT is what I practiced for and orientated myself towards. I know very little of self defense, unfortunately. Not enough time to do everything, you know? My teacher is a veteran of many boxing matches, cage matches, other NHB matches, street fights and other situations that have come up in his time as a Cook County Sheriff. But because I respect TMA and its methods and some of its practioners, because I didn't practice San Shou (TM), I have "caught the incorrect"

BTW, respect has nothing special to do with martial arts. However it has everything to do with being a human being. Some of these guys are resorting to the high-school thing because they are incapable of making a logical argument.

[rogue]

fa_jing, I know and am friendly with several active competitors, and they are really good guys. We talk shop, trade ideas and respect what we each do. They train for the ring and they know that I train for enjoyment and self defense. We all know they could kill me in the ring but they think it's great that I work 50+ hours a week, do things with my family, that I'm over 40 and still find time to train, albiet not at their level. Now if I started giving them advice about ring tactics I'm sure they'd laugh their ass's off.
Really I've caught more crap from the guys who "train" for competition but for some reason never make it into the ring. I doubt they even make their training sessions on a regular basis.:)

[fa_jing]

I don't doubt it, Rogue. That's why I took issue with Ross' remark in the first place.

[norther practitioner]

He fills a niche, he knows it and he admits it. I think this dual scenario is where we're headed--the division between fighters (at all appropriate levels of competition) and hobbyist (at all appropriate levels of competition), with everybody understanding that up front.

I think therein lies the problem with a lot of tma schools.. They sort of hide this from there students, or start filling them with mystical notions.

[Shaolin-Do]

"oint is i would rather be the skinny dude with the knife then strictly mike tysons skills...give tyson a knife and let him use his boxing skills...i would rather have philipino knife fighting skills than boxer skills in a "

Im sorry diego, but that made about as much sense as letting hellen keller babysit a retarded child.

[norther practitioner]

The only way I'd want to be the skinny dude is if he was definitely getting laid by a hot chick after the fight...lol:D

[Shaolin-Do]

If you are the skinny dude fighting mike tyson, chances are all youll be getting laid is a knife laid real nice into the ribs after he takes it from you, and a fist repeatedly laid into your face for pulling a knife on iron mike.
;)

[Merryprankster]

Honestly,this is again showing one side of the fence.The sport fighting side and,when you say that..."these are the waves of the future. People are going to start arguing about individual fighters rather than styles and overall training methods."....You are in contradiction with your own idea here!...It is OK if there is no more styles separations only if the sole existing styles are MMA and sanshou.So there will be no more room for different ideas and tastes?....

Coming from somebody who spoke english as their first language, I'd just ask you to re-read what I wrote :D

I think you misunderstood me. What I said was that MMA and San Shou as FORMATS are the wave of the future. I believe you're eventually going to wind up with "fighter's gyms" and "other schools." There's nothing wrong with "other schools," I just think people will start being more honest about what they can and can't prepare you for.

Case in point--I went to Duke Roufus' school in Milwaukee. He said point blank "I don't teach self-defense. I teach a ring sport. Obviously there are some cross overs in skills, but I'm not really about awareness, fouling techniques, etc."

Yet, you go to the local kwoon/dojo and more likely than not they'll tell you they're the "real street lethal" even if they can't teach awareness or punch out of a wet baggie.

Again, my point was that honesty is going to make a resurgence because openness is winning out over secrecy and false claims. Consequently, it's going to be pretty hard for people to claim umpty-squat when you can look around and see just what's actually going on.

[rogue]

Yet, you go to the local kwoon/dojo and more likely than not they'll tell you they're the "real street lethal" even if they can't teach awareness or punch out of a wet baggie.Too true.


Case in point--I went to Duke Roufus' school in Milwaukee. He said point blank "I don't teach self-defense. I teach a ring sport. Obviously there are some cross overs in skills, but I'm not really about awareness, fouling techniques, etc." But for every Duke Roufus there are others who stick their fingers into the self defense pot and offer their pearls of wisdom. Take Rorion for example, please. (http://cfw2.com/article.asp?content_id=570) :) Rorion makes some valid points but, according to him my experience couldn't have happned, my sensei experiences couldn't have happened. Some ring fighters take their experience and training to be the total truth of fighting in the real world, but experience will show us it's not. Just like the traditional and combatives guys fall into the same trap.

Oddly Rorion gives a great example of what a one man can do against multiples, but then pulls “One man can’t defeat two.” out of thin air. BTW The "Swarm" from what I understand uses more than 2 correctional officers.

Learn from Life: The “Swarm” Method
Still doubting? Consider the tactic now employed at many of the prisons and correctional institutions in this country. If an inmate refuses to peacefully cooperate with a command and threatens injury to any who approach, the prison guards now form a small squad of officers. In a coordinated unit, they “swarm” into the cell and simply “smother” their target under a small fleshy avalanche.
They use little in the way of specific technique. You don’t see many punches and kicks being thrown on either side. There is no opportunity for punches and kicks. At best, the prisoner manages a single panicked lunge and then he disappears beneath a human quilt of torsos, arms, and legs. The inmate is subdued with minimal injury to himself or the guards. “One man can’t defeat two.”

[diego]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
"oint is i would rather be the skinny dude with the knife then strictly mike tysons skills...give tyson a knife and let him use his boxing skills...i would rather have philipino knife fighting skills than boxer skills in a "

Im sorry diego, but that made about as much sense as letting hellen keller babysit a retarded child.

okay i will speak to you like you are two so you can understand

in a street encounter it would be sad if someone who trained as much as tyson did ended up getting killed by some punk with a knife because all tyson did was punch at the punk.

still confused?.

that was the main point then i added that give tyson a knife... now as a boxer how effective would he be in a knifefight...logically not as effective as he would be if he trained to fight with knives=

i feel bad for anyone who believes they fightingsport skills is all they need because **** you just spent all that time training and ended up getting shanked to death by some punk on the street when you should have added to your great conditioning etc that you gained from your fightingsport carrear by learning how to play with knives.

still confused?

what do i expect you do shaolin do:p :D

[Stranger]

I'm not downplaying the value of the knifefighting arts, but Tyson armed with two Cold Steel push daggers would be a whole mess of trouble for most people.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Stranger - you've got to have a warning on a post like that! I spit water out my nose all over my nice, new computer!

[SifuAbel]

Alert !!!!!!! Thread Hijack in progress!!!!!!!!!!!

[diego]

Originally posted by Stranger
I'm not downplaying the value of the knifefighting arts, but Tyson armed with two Cold Steel push daggers would be a whole mess of trouble for most people.

:) but is this because tyson is a crazy mofo from the bronx i think or because of his boxing skills...anyway

Serious question for yall boxing fans

who would win in a fight between tyson and ali if both met up at the height of their carrears?.

Are heavyweight boxers of today better than those from yesterday?.

I was thinking about this like one would think todays boxers have better training etc but then i question if tyson is better trained would ali have a chance at beating him due to his natural talent?.

just curious:)...any thoughts?.

[rogue]

The winner would be Don King!

[diego]

:D

[Vash]

I'd say that the average skill level in boxing, and in particular the lighter weight divisions, has definetly increased over the years.

Are the guys better now than they were then? Some of 'em, yeah. But legends are legends for a reason.

[LeeCasebolt]

Still doubting? Consider the tactic now employed at many of the prisons and correctional institutions in this country. If an inmate refuses to peacefully cooperate with a command and threatens injury to any who approach, the prison guards now form a small squad of officers. In a coordinated unit, they ?swarm? into the cell and simply ?smother? their target under a small fleshy avalanche.

Shows what he knows. I was fortunate enough to participate in the filming of an instructional video for prison guards on this and other restraint tactics - and by "participate" I mean I held the camera - and there's a fair amount of technique involved in terms of the teamwork needed for five guys to swarm one without getting in each other's way while keeping in mind the need to minimize harm to the prisoner and that the prisoner suffers from no such restriction.

Lee Casebolt

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, but rogue, overall, Rorion's marketing is something of a joke to MMAers. We KNOW it's silly. A little more honesty...a little more common sense. I just have this gut feeling that's where we're headed.

And, to answer your question diego, why even bother with tyson v. ali. Ali, no contest. Ali took punches from heavier hitters in foreman and um... didn't he fight shavers too? Knew how to frustrate guys trying to come in. Look at Ali vs. Frazier, and tyson has nowhere NEAR the ability Frazier had to close the gap.

Now, Lewis...Lewis would maul Ali. FWIW, Lewis would maul most of the past heavyweight champions. He is one of the most underrated champs of all time.

That said, Lewis will never be a great...he has shown, at least twice, that he doesn't have the heart to prepare.

Also, if you want to put money on some random skinny guy with a knife, be my guest. A TRAINED knifefighter, yeah, maybe. But we're still talking about a man with a touch of sleep in both hands.

[fa_jing]

good points MP.

[rogue]

A little more honesty...a little more common sense. I just have this gut feeling that's where we're headed. I think your gut knows what it's talking about. :)

Now how do we keep honest in what we do? Not everybody can or wants to train for the ring, and not everyone will get into street fights to test their combative skills, not that either gives the full view of martial arts. Against who do we compare ourselves? :confused:

BTW, as a spectator I prefer San Shou over Muay Thai. A throw is much more fun to watch than two guys in the clinch.

[diego]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


Also, if you want to put money on some random skinny guy with a knife, be my guest. A TRAINED knifefighter, yeah, maybe. But we're still talking about a man with a touch of sleep in both hands.

i admit it's a stupid topic and wasn't the basis to my points...but for real i thought about it and i think i would rather get punched to death than stabbed to death....had both and bleeding sucks bruises heal quicker than cuts....and the guy doesn't have to be all that trained with the knife all it takes is two missed punches from mike and two lucky cuts from the punk with a knife and tysons boxing tools are rendered useless...unless he has super sayen tendons...etc..sayen is that the name of those dudes from dragonballz?.:)

[Liokault]

BTW, as a spectator I prefer San Shou over Muay Thai. A throw is much more fun to watch than two guys in the clinch.

The only reason i prefer to watch Muay Thai over san shou is that the Thai boxers will be top class athleats who probably fight for a living. About 1 in 10 of san shou fights I see have the same level of fighter.

I think that this is a fundimental reason why san shou gets little respect, but a brighter note it is something that can only get better.

[Suntzu]

About 1 in 10 of san shou fights I see have the same level of fighter. hmmmmmmm...... interesting........

[lkfmdc]

- "About 1 in 10 of san shou fights I see have the same level of fighter"

You need to get out more :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
- "About 1 in 10 of san shou fights I see have the same level of fighter"

You need to get out more :rolleyes:

Why? Is it a lower number? :p

You gotta learn how to take a critique.

[lkfmdc]

Actually, what gives San Shou a bad name is poorly trained people entering the divisions and fighting like crap, they are usually guys from so called "traditional" schools :D

Look at the athletes from the real centers for San Shou/San Da and you HAVE to be impressed. You can't look at Albert Pope, Mike Norman, Max Chen, Rich Acosta, Josh Bearegard, Ian Morgan, Jose Palacios, Duncan Duffin, Brian Madigan, Russ Middleton, Ed Carpio, etc etc etc and not be impressed unless you have an ax to grind...

Again, in all seriousness this time, people who THINK they can fight often enter our competitions and then get DESTROYED and look bad in the process....

Also, there are TONS of bad Muay Thai athletes, go to any kickboxing show in the US and you will see TONS of them...