The culture of OVERTRAINING in MARTIAL ART

[Xebsball]

So...

i noticed,
its a common thing attitude on many/most martial arts classes -> the overtraining culture
the idea that OH IM A MARTIAL ARTIST SO TOUGH then people train so hard, more than their body should do and then FOCK their systems.
And the instructor pushing: U CAN DO MORE! DONT GIVE UP U WIMP!!!!
What im saying is:
Martial Arts have an overtrainig culture that says the training only is really good WHEN YOUR BODY HURTS
BUT ITS NOT TRUE, your body shouldnt hurt for days after you trained - if it does it means YOU OVERTRAINED U STUPID KUNT - or your studpid instructor pushed you to do it. YOU ARE ONLY HURTING YOUR BODY AND YOUR PROGRESS
This is something specially important for newbies

Thank you.

[Vash]

Dang straight. Pain is not good. Soreness is okay. But it shouldn't last more than a day at the most and shouldn't hinder regular day-to-day activities or training.

Whassamatta Xebs? Get too many pushups for talking out of turn? :p

[Ikken Hisatsu]

no pain no gain? its bull****. your body hurts for a reason. Im usually sore the day after, and while I do push myself (I dont consider it a good training lesson unless Im sweating like a pig by then end) I never train with an injury or push myself over my boundaries.

[shaolinarab]

well my dumbazz got kicked good in the side during sparring class, and it felt like a bruised rib the next few days... the following week got hit really hard in the same spot again. that time, though, i became too sore to even lift my leg up for any kicks. i then said fug it, no more sparring until it heals! :mad:

[Vash]

Ah, memories ;)

My ribs just about healed. Hoping to get back into karate, weight lifting by the first of December. Then shall I rain righteous vengeance upon the young children's and children's class! How DARE THEY . . . do whatever it is I'll be revenging :p

[shaolinarab]

how long did it take for your ribs to heal? didn't u say in another thread u either broke them or injured them?

i'm going on three weeks now. i hope it heals soon b/c i have to be ready for non-stop sparring at the johnson city, TN tourny on nov.1

my backup plan is to wear some extra cushion on my side using some good tape. what do u think?

[ComeToJesus]

While it may not build better muscles to be in pain, but it builds character.

[Vash]

Well, I originally cracked them in March. Then, through repeated blows to it, and non-stop training, I finally had the rib cleanly broken and cracked in two places, plus I tore the cartilage around the head of the rib and the muscles around said rib.

Hoping to be 100% sometime in December.

My advice (which I should have followed): After they feel 100%, take two weeks of little stress. That means no sparring, limited weight training, slow and controlled ab/low-back work, things like that.

I think I'm being a bit gunshy, but better safe than sorry.

CTJ:

F#ck character. I'd sooner have the ability to drive my enemies before me and hear the lamentations of their wimmins. :mad: :eek:

[chen zhen]

In my thai class yesterday, I kicked my sparring-partner and he spiked my foot with his elbow. I can barely walk now.
And I also caught a right hook in the head by a little fat philipino dude, giving me a light concussion.

so its possible to be sore and in pain without overtraining!:mad:

[Kristoffer]

being able to take painfull shots is vital if your serious as a martial artist. It's not the same thing as overtraining

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by Vash
CTJ:

F#ck character. I'd sooner have the ability to drive my enemies before me and hear the lamentations of their wimmins. :mad: :eek:

Vash isa man of vision :cool:

[Kristoffer]

vision is good

[Merryprankster]

I would have to only sort of agree.

Overtraining is common from the physical exercise perspective. It is NOT common however, from the skill perspective. Chronic undertraining there.

Too sore/hurt/tired to get down and dirty? Light drills, etc.

But yeah--lots of people do the "More exercise is better thing...." then, they're out for a week!

[chen zhen]

vash is a prophet.

:cool: not the Ashida Kim>Bruce Lee kind

[David Jamieson]

xebs, why are you angry about this? I thought you said you don't train at all! So why should it bother you how others train?
Why should it be anyones concern how someone else trains?
If anything, it's more important to focus on your own training.

cheers

[BentMonk]

Training hard is a beautiful thing. Not listening to your own body is just plain stupid. There is a huge difference between feeling the burn and OW! If it hurts too bad, stop. Also on a training note, try not going to failure on your exercises. Do only as many as you can do with good form. Going to failure results in poor form. Poor form is the number one cause of exercise injury. Also by knowing you did as many as you could do, and you did them right will leave you feeling positive about yourself and your workout, thus staving off burn out. Just some thoughts. Peace.

[rogue]

I used to spend more time sparring than working on the weakness' that the sparring showed. After awhile I spent more time injured than well. I should have listened to my friend who does MT and either started to wear padding or to go lighter.

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
xebs, why are you angry about this? I thought you said you don't train at all! So why should it bother you how others train?
Why should it be anyones concern how someone else trains?
If anything, it's more important to focus on your own training.

cheers


1) Firsrt of all im not angry, if i was id use: ":mad: :mad:"
2) Secdond of all, dotn disrespect me like this again, this is the last time you disrespcet me like this and get away with it, learn to love your life before i lay it to waste
3) Third, yeah indeed i stopped training - but i posted this cos its something i actually had thought of while i still was training but i had forgotten to make a thread AND i also cos recently i read an article (on a fitness site) about overtraining WICH made me remember to bring back the subject.
I actually truly dont give a fock how you train, true that, you right
But of course, if you do the same then i dont see why you should post anything martial arts related on here - cos it would have influence on how others train - and you knowing that and not caring you wouldnt want to have influence, understand? but you still do post stuff about martial arts and exchange info with others, in other words -> get back to number 2)

[David Jamieson]

honestly xebs

you take every bit of advice or contradiction to your views as an insult or disrespect.:rolleyes:

what are you gonna do about it? idle threats are useless man, I don't make em. So why threaten me?

Don't write cheques with your mouth that the rest of you can't cash is all I gotta say about that dude.

Have a nice day. and remember an i-net discussion forum is no place for the thin skinned.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!

On over trainig, I think it's VERY common in Chinese arts in general. It's that train everyday thing that really gets you, not so much how hard you train. Really, most of the things we do fully exaughst us before any real dammage occures. However, that story really changes when you go every day 7 days a week for months, or even years at a time. The body NEEDS rest and recovery time. In modern arena's, it's almost down to a science now.

In the past, I found that If I train more than 3 days in a row, for long periods of time, my development actually stagnates. This could be why so many traditional arts take so long to become proficient.

After much research, and experimantation, I found that if I train 3 days straight, where one day is strength, and two cardio followed by a day or two off, I do the best.

I can also go two days strength, one day cardio as well.

generally whatevre I do on day one, I do on day three. Then I do the opposite on day Two.

For example,

day 1 Strength
day 2. cardio.
day 3 strength

Then I take a day or two off and repete.

Now, if my goals are to drop wieght, or improve my endurance, I'll just make days 1 & 3 cardio, and day 2 strength.

Over all, this puts me on a 9 day mini cycle. Every 3 mini cycles, I switch it up from strength based to cardio based.

The hardest part nowadys, is keeping the scedual. I usually end up doing strength on monday, mis tues, but get some cardio in the form of practicing the Long Fist sets I know on Wed. Thurs or Friday, I get some internal work done, or regular conditioning, or some light weights and stuff etc. then I rest on the week ends. This isnt' as effective as when I do the full 9 day scedual with 3 days on 1-2 days off, but it still works in needed rest time, and I DEFENETLY feel I progress faster than when I trained daily till I collapsed so much that it took 20 minutes of just sitting there before my legs recoverd enough to stand.

[rogue]

Secdond of all, dotn disrespect me like this again, this is the last time you disrespcet me like this and get away with it, learn to love your life before i lay it to waste Watch it KL or next thing you know he'll be saying, "Say hello to my little friend!":D

[CrippledAvenger]

IMO, it's a fine line between going hard enough to really get some benefit and over-training. Yesterday, I sat through a grueling 2 hour Shuai Chiao class, then did two hours of intense boxing/muay thai. Was that overtraining? For me, no. Did it push me to my limits? Hell, yes. Would it be overtraining for someone else? Quite possibily.

The problem I think in some sense, is conditioning. I've been working on my cardio and my strength for the last three months, so going 4 hours wasn't entirely too much. However, if I was in the condition that I started in this past August, I'd probably have gone too hard, and as a result, injured something.

How many CMAs do roadwork? How many Karateka do wind sprints? I personally don't know that many, which brings me to my point: there has to be a basic level of conditioning present BEFORE you can go hard, not the other way around. That, I think, is where you start seeing the overtraining and injury problems begin (generally speaking).

[yenhoi]

when exactly did xebs turn into such a little girl?

:confused:

[ComeToJesus]

Ok Vash, but then when you're faced with an extremely difficult task (physical or other), you will be the one to break down and give up, while I will be the one to keep going because I've been through worse.
Not that I'm supporting overtraining, but I'm sick of efficiency freaks who turn training into ****ing rocket science.
"Well you shouldn't do 12.5 reps with a weight of 125.7lbs, you should do 11.9, and if your weight is 180lbs, and your biceps make an arc of diamater of 15 inches, then you should squat 238.1lbs..." and all that bs
Just ****in train

EDIT oh yeah, and I sense a Xebsball vs Kung Lek thread coming :)

[David Jamieson]

Only water dragon gets to be my nemesis.

Because he asked first. Anyone else will simply have to take the "second banana" position.

The line starts............................................ .............>here
:p

cheers

[Vash]

Originally posted by ComeToJesus
Ok Vash, but then when you're faced with an extremely difficult task (physical or other), you will be the one to break down and give up, while I will be the one to keep going because I've been through worse.
Not that I'm supporting overtraining, but I'm sick of efficiency freaks who turn training into ****ing rocket science.
"Well you shouldn't do 12.5 reps with a weight of 125.7lbs, you should do 11.9, and if your weight is 180lbs, and your biceps make an arc of diamater of 15 inches, then you should squat 238.1lbs..." and all that bs
Just ****in train

Que? I'm not sure exactly where I got confused about what I was saying (as must be the case, as you obviously know what you're talking about). Let's get a few definitions out of the way . . .

Pain = Resulting sensation from INJURY. Not good.
Soreness = Resulting from workload excelling previous tested limits. Good thing, if not taking too long to recover from.

The body is a machine. The study and application of training improvements to said machine is, in fact, a science. The more efficiently (dirty word!) we can train, the more gains we can make, the safer we can train, the better we become.

Intense training is great. But, not every workout, whether on technique or attribute training, should be undertaken taken with highest possible workload.

Your over-analyzation example is flawed. It is far better to train in a manner which benefits the organism the most while limiting the risk for injury (which can result from over-training).

So, to summarize as I've got a speech to finish:

Over-training = Bad.
Smart, intense workouts= Good.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

I think people should be more worried about the frequency and consistency of their training program rather than over-training.

Like RD said it is easy to overdo it and not give the body the needed rest-periods. Sometimes less gains more.

But why do we have such a culture of overtraining?

Are we too competetive?
Are we judging our own skills and abilities against the wrong markers?

How often do I here and on other boards, why don't you guys look more muscular and buff.

Looks like a lot of people got their standards and ideas crossed.
What is more important for a MA to have six-pack and low BMI or good skill.

Or why do so many hobbyists try to compete with pro-ma in looks and training programs.

Yes, fitness and strength is important but they need to be in realistic relations do your needs and everyday life-style.

When does "more is better" stop being useful and become a hindrance?

Just my thoughts.

[ComeToJesus]

I agree, pain is bad. You should train hard, but you shouldn't be in pain which makes you scream.
Yeah my example was a little exaggerated, but from what I've seen some people come close to being like that. That's what I hate.
Just listen to your body, you don't need people to tell you how many squats/benches you need to do at what weight.
At least that's how it is with me...
Anyways Vash, I didn't mean to go directly against you and your theory, but I think a little pain (not muscle-tearing-bone-crunching pain) is good. Makes other pains you encounter later on trivial. CHARACTER MAN :)

[fa_jing]

I've heard that overtraining is overblown, the big no-no's are under resting and under eating.

[Serpent]

Hasn't Royal Dragon been resting for years now, waiting for his back to get back into fighting shape or something?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by fa_jing
I've heard that overtraining is overblown, the big no-no's are under resting and under eating.

On a more serious note, this is SO true. The only time I notice any symptoms of over trianing is when I don't get enough sleep. I train really hard, almost every day, sometimes several times a day, and it's only when I miss out on sleep that I feel it (other than the usual aches and bruises, etc.)

[Royal Dragon]

Actually, I'm training again, mostly forms and Qi Gong right now. Before it was all back therapy mostly.

I wouldn't call it resting too much though. It's, more like I was working on stuff not really martial related. I can actually kick over my head again. That was no easy feat to get back, all things considred.

If I had been training Kung Fu as hard as I trained my back, I'd be a frik'n animal right now.

That being said, I think it's pretty hard to "Over train" in Kung Fu. The body physically runs out of steam before you can realy hurt yourself. The problems I see, come from not taking enough recovery time (Day or two off here and there, sleep etc...) I've read that an athlete NEEDS a good hour, to hour and a half more sleep a night than normal people. A day or two off inbetween really hard days, or a series of hard days is essential for good development too. I nevre go more than 3 days straight, without taking 1-2 days rest before the next 3 day run.

As for food, an athlete (And lets face it, that's what we are), needs way more food than a non athlete. We need lots of carbs before training to fuel us, and lots of protien after to build and rebuild. That's good for two extra meals a day right there.

How many of us scedual pre and post meals practice into the training? We really all should be scarfing a bowl of rice before, and a big steak after we train, IN ADDITION to our regular 3 meals a day. I generally make a bigger dinner so it counts for two meals, rather than spliting it up due to time constraints, but it still works well. Diet is a MAJOR contributing factor to rapid and safe development, as well as injury prevention as fars as I'm concerned.

[Shaolin-Do]

I probably need more sleep. 2AM to 7AM doesnt sound like enough. Doesnt feel like enough either.
:(

I been kinda lazy lately, but Im starting a new program next week... kinda plan on being lazy the rest of the week. Next week start balls out for a couple months again tho... then take another week of laziness. :)

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Only water dragon gets to be my nemesis.


Yay! I'll meet YOU on the Canadian border with a meteor hammer and a ninja suit buddy.

[Machine_Phantom]

some wounds never heal
be careful kids

[Vash]

If you get injured, fuggin' stop! Injuries suck a$$!

[shaolinboxer]

My last instructor (we parted ways about 4 or 5 years ago) really encouraged over training. I never really noticed but I was sick or injured all of the time. Once I calmed down and started training in a more reasonable way my health improved and I suddendly realized how sick I had been. Mentally and physically.

The last time I over trained was about a year ago. Two hot shots from the west coast came to our dojo and wanted to kinda show who's boss, so I tried to burn them out. I was sick and sore for a week. They're pretty tough cats actually.

It's important, I think, to test your limits and train a bit past the point where you may like to stop. But you can only do this in short bursts, with rest and rehydration in between, and a limit on how many of these bursts you do. I usually get in 2 or 3 per class....like sprints between walking or jogging, instead of sprinting all night long. Some nights, if I'm the most senior student present, my workout is very light but my teaching experience becomes the focus.

[mickey]

Greetings all,

I have had this problem myself. There were two reasons why I overtrained:

1- The need to achieve something quickly: more like the need to achieve something YESTERDAY! I am learning that little by little is better nothing at all.

2- I was not strong enough to begin with. My conditioning level should have exceeded the requirements of the task at hand. When you are at that point, training is a fantastic experience.

mickey

[mickey]

With strong enough I mean:

1-cardio/respiratory

2-muscular


John Allen of the Green Dragon had a point when it came to strength. I wish he would write more stuff.

mickey

[Volcano Admim]

ttt
there! on your ma sucka ass faces again!
TO THE TOP

this thread is very good, though i seen some o you ruined it with your ignorance