Taiji Fighting

[RAF]

Mantis108 provided these clips of some praying mantis fighting.

http://www.mantismartialart.com/demofight-2.WMV

Does anyone think that taiji fighting is distinguisable from these clips or is this praying mantis external and taiji has a more internal expression with less speed and strikes?

Just curious.

[count]

These are good clips of mantis boxing. I think you will find this, and any good kung fu follow the principles of adhering, diverting, listening and borrowing which are taught in Tai Chi's poems of the random circle. I don't know much about Taijimantis but the 7 star mantis I do know is springy and explosive. A little more hoppy than Tai Chi's spiraling but still circular and continuous. My guess is the tai chi is in the training along with the mantis. What do you think mantis108? Should Taijimantis be either/or or should it be both when put in practice?

[count]

These clips (http://www.mantismartialart.com/demofight-1r.wmv) posted on the same site, seem to show more "tai chi like" applications.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I played this style while in Korea back in the late 70s.

The plum flower mantis as a style, has many similarities to the ideas of taiji that I now play but from what I remember is more of an attacking kind of thinking. it also has a shape and stratagy that they try to lead you into.

Very different from being with out intention and really relying on the others intent and force.

[RAF]

At this point in time, its my understanding that the use of taiji in the praying mantis title has no relationship to the tajiquan martial arts system. The Qingdao, Shandong crowd makes a clear distinction between taji meihua tanglang quan and meihua tanglang quan, too but I have never been able to get a good explanation of the differences.

My teacher's Uncle left the Shandong Province before 1940 and emigrated to Korea where he taught meihua praying mantis. He later emigrated to Taiwan where he taught my teacher meihua tanglang quan. About two years ago, I happened to be present when my teacher and another master from Qingdao, Shandong compared their meihua tang lang quan (it might have been a comparison of their taji meihua tanglang quan to our meihua tanglang quan). There was virtually no difference.

An interesting side note: because of my interest in taiji, a master of 6 Harmony Mantis told me that style would fit me very well. The 6 Harmony mantis is supposed flow like a river and is a very relaxed, soft, in comparison to 7 star, system. Interesting the basic fist training in 6 Harmony mantis, Six Harmony Short Punch (Liuhe duan chui) is from the 6 Harmony system and is not a 6 Harmony mantis form.

I still wonder, aside from pushing hands, what upper level Yang, Chen or Wu taijiquan looks like in two man fight. I have a pretty good idea what bagua and xing yi look like, and they can be easily related to the 8 Step Praying Mantis. My gut feeling is at the very highest levels of play, there are more visual similarities in systems than there are differences.

[RAF]

Well, here is the best answer I have seen. This is Mantis108 reply to a similar question:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=26191

Thank you Mantis108!

[count]

That mantis108 makes sense of everything.
"Contraria Sunt Complementa"

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

From a different perspective, i think that elements of Taijiquan that can be seen are due largely to the effectiveness of that particular technique.. it is seen in many styles.. where movements and techniques have a Taiji look, it is so because they simply work.. whether it came from Taiji or another style is not nearly as important as the inherent effectiveness of the movement.. Historically, Taijiquan is a relatively young Art.. it is likely that many of its movements were incorporated because of effectiveness and the adaptability to the internal principles..

The clips are nicely done and demonstrate good posture, stance, speed and effectiveness.. i particularly like the economy of effort necessary to achieve a desired result, not much wasted effort..

Be well..

[Tak]

Everybody was taiji fighting.....those cats were slow as lightning!

(Don't lecture me, I know it's not slow in application)

[mantis108]

Sorry to come to this thread late. Glad you all enjoy the clip. I would like to address some your posts first and then I will give you my thoughts on the similarities and differences between the fighting appoaches of TLQ and TJQ

Hi RAF,

Glad you like the clip and my post. Thanks for the input. It is very informative. I am extremely curious about the 6 Harmony material especially the form that you mentioned. I wonder if there is a possibility of material exchange with you? :)

Hi Count,

Thanks for the support and sharing your mantis as well. :) I think I will share some of my thought on the subject in the following post. Hope you don't mind.

Hi Bambooleaf,

Great stuff! Thanks

Hi TaichiBob,

Thanks for the input. Good point about TJQ being a relatively young art. I think I will address that in the following post as well.

Warm regards

Mantis108


Warm regards

[RAF]

Interesting baji-ego crush. 40 year old 6 Harmony Mantis master knocks down a 21 year old baji/pigua master-in-the-making (11 personal training with Li Shu Wen), 3 times. Hmmm.

Also the 6 Harmony master, I believe, is also a wu style taijiquan adept.

6 Harmony described as the softest of the mantis styles.

Unfortunately, I have, not significantly different from zero, training in 6 Harmony mantis. No real experience in the system and I don't know anyone other than some of the 2nd generation disiciples of Liu. They learned from Zhang Xiang San and I also heard he taught lots of taijiquan in Taiwan.

[mantis108]

First and foremost, Chinese culture and Chinese martial arts are inseparable because art imitate life or rather it expresses our inner most feeling toward life for communication purposes. This is the major difference between arts and sports. Sports mainly deal with the mechanics and the dynamics of a specific set(s) of skills. Arts take into consideration of our perceptions toward reality as well as our philosophies and our worldviews. Ethnic viability, which is the essence of the people, means nothing to sports; however, for arts that's everything because that's the total experience of the people.

Such a total experience exists in the form of a body of knowledge known as the I Ching (Book of Changes) to the Chinese people. Having said that the I Ching has a universal appear to other culture as well but Chinese people are perhaps the only people that apply it in all areas of daily life. Things like YingYang, 5 elements, 8 trigrams, etc... are means to experience or rather connect to the reality. That is to say how we relate ourselves to the space-time continuum.

Connection, relation, space-time continuum, etc... are all essential variables in eyes of mystics as well as pugilists. For many CMA practitioners, the final frontier is where the mystic-pugilists dwell.

It is not surprising to see that TLQ and TJQ being styles of CMA share similarity in theory (pun intended). Do we not fight within and take advantage of the 6 harmonies - Height, Width, and Depth? Do we not attack and defend the 8 directions and step in 5 ways? Yet, being formless to seeing the relationship between you and opponent being nothing but power systems or embracing the mindset of a predatory insect in nature (form), that is where the individuality emerges. Nontheless, both require great observations and insights. Futher, the mystic-pugilist knows the formless form paradox well enough that the only constant is converting form to formlessness or vice versa. The starting point is irrelevant. Whether it is Xingyi 5 element punches, Taiji 13 stances, Bagua 8 mother palms, or Tanglang numerous postures, they all lead to formlessness which will "return to form" (matter is energy that "ran" out of energy).

TJQ speaks of the trigger effect (linear) when it comes to fighting. This is the very same idea of water wheels and turning gears concepts (circular) in TLQ. Once the wheel of combat is set in motions all components are involved (one fires after another) so that the machine, whatever that is, just keep running. So there is as much linear thinking as circular thinking in both arts. Without sensitivity, how can the mantis stick close to its prey and control it for consumption? Without explosiveness, how can Taiji stylist like the garrison of a walled town blast its way to victory? TLQ is long powers (throws and takendowns) within the short powers(strikes and kicks) while the TJQ is the short powers within the long powers. No martial art is complete if it has only one focus.

Sorry about the long winded post. :)

Mantis108

PS all my usual disclaimers applied

[wiz cool c]

On Martail Art World Video Magazine Issue# 5 they have Tai Chi fighting in a competition. One Tai Chi guy does a lot of quick strikes to close the distence then when inside he does a sweep or throw. He did this a couple of times.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I can only speak for myself, but.. whenever i am sparring, just sparring for the sake of fun and sport, i relax and let whatever works flow.. when i do this i find that my Taiji seems to be the most common response.. but, then again, sometimes the Mantis emerges, or Aikido, or Yoshukai.. the point is, that when we stop thinking or contriving the movements, that which we have "internalized" emerges.. This, i believe, is the "formless" quality.. not bound by the current ritual of choice, but letting the situation dictate the appropriate response from our complete body of experiences... Formlessness, is the field of possibilities available as the situation unfolds.. form emerges as we let our natural responses rise to the situation.. then, as the situation continues to unfold formlessness and form become so entangled as to be indistinguishable.. as the form emerges to one aspect of the situation, formlessness sets the stage for the next aspect.. At its highest, for me, the sparring is much like dancing.. match the movement, keep the rhythmn, hear the music of the opponents energies (intentions) and in the classic dance scenario take the lead when your partner misses a step.. it's almost mystical in its deceptive beauty..

Mantis108... I appreciate your reference to the I-Ching.. i have read three translations, not for divination, but for the wisdom and insight it sheds on human nature.. it is remarkable in its ability to link human nature to natural patterns.. the I-Ching and The Art of War can give the reader many tools to navigate life's little mysteries.. The Tao Te Ching, on the other hand, is like the Reader's Digest Condensed Version of those venerable texts...

Be well..

[count]

Mantis108, good post but...

I can not fully agree on the distinction between sport and art here. Sports are more than just a set of skills and mechanics. Sport is also science, history, philosophy, psychology, gamesmanship and more.

On a basic level, sports give you the platform to reenact "the struggle" in a controlled setting on a level playing field. It is more than executing physical skills with mechanical precision. It's also a strategic mindset that comes from a spiritual center expressed outward with one goal. Winning.

The process that gets you to that point is one that includes hard training and exercise, proper diet and nutrition, meditation and visualization, planning and execution. You must also study the history of past competitions as well as knowing your opponents past history and performance habits. After years of personal training and development, an athlete can perform their skills while applying their own unique strengths and individual personalities.

Martial arts is basically the same in that aspect. It is seldom a life and death situation, but usually a test of skills. Sure, the goal is to be ready to defend a life, but in training, your life is never in jeopardy. The tools at our access are basically the same tools that any athlete uses. Body, mind and spirit. The only real difference is level of intent. Don't get me started on team sports and military strategies. :D

To bring this back somewhat on topic, on a basic level, all martial arts are concerned with the same things. Efficiency in movement, proper alignment, strength, energy, speed and power. I am fortunate to have trained side by side with different styles and methods. I have more often noticed the similarities in techniques and applications between the styles. The physical structure is more often identical, it's the strategy and flavor that is unique. Combined with the individual personality of the practitioner and the level of development every style is both different and the same.

The art is in the expression of spirit.

[mantis108]

Thanks for sharing such a wonder post. Nice rebuttal and good points. But then you have pointed out the major difference - Winning which is a condition. For a lack of better terms it is where we IMHO find the external Vs internal arguement begins. Everybody loves the star athlete such as Tyson. If you take boxing away from him, what is left? Too abstract this way perhaps. How about his physical condition declines and he kept loosing? Let's face it sport is about conditional love of the beholders (both the athlete and the audience). Who goes into the internal MA and think that he's going to be the greatest figther of all time? Even if there is such a person, he properly won't stick arround long enough to taste the real thing or he would total change his perpective after long years of training. That's what arts do to you. You invest not in winning trying to fit the shoe (image of a victor) rather you work the lost and on stripping away the illusions (sounds familiar?). What's left is the true self. You are not trying to look into the mirror (self image & admirations of fans) to find the sense of identity from the outside. But you look hard into your core and that is a personal, real personal journey. You truelly internalize at that point. Such love of the art is unconditional.

I have great admiration for Xingyiquan, which IMHO excellently expresses the Chinese worldview through a combative form to its fullness. Reading the work of Sun Lutang, who is in my mind one of the a greatest Mystic-pugilists, is most rewarding experience for me. Now is there is a sport there can match the wisdom of Xingyiquan in every aspect? I will be more than happy to be proven wrong but sports, as it is now, bring out every dark nature of human. See all the doping incidents and all the political BS that goes with it. And don't get me started on the so-called star athlete's being human outside of their fields [re: to err is human]. Thinking the kids would model after these "heroes" just send chills up my spin.

Western civilizations are too positioned, too focused to win for their taste for conditional love has prevented them from seeing otherwise. Anyway, sorry about the long rant. It is of course personal choice on whether sports or arts give the person quality of life (not to be confused with quality livelihood.)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[jun_erh]

I saw an article in IKF once once by one of the Dog brothers, who are these bad ass guys in california doing painful ma training. I don't know much about them. But one thing he said was that he would fight with his friends. I think that's cool.