Internal Energy

[couch]

I know in my school, we don't concentrate on bringing our Ch'i levels up that much.

Who here trains at a Wing Chun school and uses Qi Gong methods, meditations, tai chi,etc in class?

Does anyone here use the first section of the Sil Lum Tao for Qi Gong?

Just curious,
Couch.

[anerlich]

Class is for practising your martial art(s).

If you want to learn other specific skills, which IMO have nothing to do with WC, go to other specific classes or get books, video, etc.

[[Censored]]

Who here trains at a Wing Chun school and uses Qi Gong methods

Everybody. Breathing is a qigong method. Who practices WC without breathing? :)

That is a trick question...holding your breath is also a qigong method. :D

Does anyone here use the first section of the Sil Lum Tao for Qi Gong?

What is special about the first section?

[couch]

I'm not talking about learning something else. It's just that, it hasn't been made clear to me how to build up my ch'i using Wing Chun.

What methods are everyone else using?

What part of the Wing Chun curriculum (specifically) build up your Ch'i?

As far as the first section of the SLT, I've heard people talking about doing the first section very slowly, controlling your breathing, and visualizing your energy moving around your body.

Thanks,
Couch

[Block]

You can not learn Qi Gong through WC. The WC body structure is not correct for the proper flow of Chi. Those who say they practice Chi during SLT are not doing real Qi Gong.

However, if you practice Qi Gong correctly, under the instruction of someone who knows how to position the body and focus the breathing and the mind, then you can import the knowledge into your WC application.

But this is very difficult to do unless you are shown how to do it correctly.

My advice would be to seek out a proper Qi gong instructor who you can learn real Qi gong from and then, when you know how Qi gong really works, you can identify a WC teacher who knows how to incorporate Qi gong into WC properly.

Cheers
Block

[Atleastimnotyou]

I believe that SLT will develop your chi if you practice very slowly and very relaxed because after seven years i can feel it. In WC it's development is not emphasized, more like something that comes along with training. In Tai chi, it has a heavy emphasis. So although i don't do anything in WC specifically to develop chi, i think SLT is chi gong.

[Phenix]

Is SLT means SECOND LEVEL TRAINING?

The Dynamic training which beyond the set of physical action?

Chi, angle..... still a FLT or First Level training. :D

[anerlich]

Breathing is a qigong method.

Cool. I'll do my Qigong while I'm sleeping or watching the boob tube. Screw all those silly exercises.

Breathing correctly and efficiently is important to Kung Fu, or for that matter any form of physical exertion, but that does not necessarily have anything to do with qigong. Nor is qigong necessarily the best or only way to develop efficient and coordinated breathing for physical activity.

[Sam]

James Cama Sifu teaches internal that was part of the lineage from the begining. http://www.futsaoyongchunkuen.com/NEIANDHEIKUNG.htm

[Block]

Hi Andrew

Cool. I'll do my Qigong while I'm sleeping or watching the boob tube. Screw all those silly exercises.
ROTFLOL, that's so funny :D

Qi Gung isn't just breathing, it's about complete control of the whole body which is very relevant to any form of exercise and complements WC very well.

From Qi gung you not only learn to relax but to create highly explosive and powerful energy.

It's not everyone’s cup of tea but there is tremendous benefit to incorporating it into your WC.

Cheers
Block

[yuanfen]

Couch asks:

Does anyone here use the first section of the Sil Lum Tao for Qi Gong?

Just curious,
Couch.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When done right- the slt develops the chi.

Dont need taiji or separate chi gung for the motions to be properly energized.

WC postures or taiji postures need to be done right and adjusted properly for the chi to efficiently store and flow. There will always be some chi- otherwise you would be dead.

There are different paths to chigung...good wing chun posture,
ygkym, and natural breath flow..there is plenty of chi gung-IMO and in my experience.

Supplementary work may help you feek better but good slt is chi gung enough for wc.

Dont know your school- dont know what you do.

Answering your question-----

Pointless to argue definitions.

[[Censored]]

Breathing correctly and efficiently is important to Kung Fu, or for that matter any form of physical exertion, but that does not necessarily have anything to do with qigong.

That's cute, but a little naïve. Is there a Chinese dictionary in the house?

You can not learn Qi Gong through WC. The WC body structure is not correct for the proper flow of Chi.

And the correct and proper flow is what--exactly? How about some technical detail for the little people? Throw us a bone. :)

Those who say they practice Chi during SLT are not doing real Qi Gong.

What is real Qi Gong?

[yuanfen]

Block sez:
Those who say they practice Chi during SLT are not doing real Qi Gong.
---------------------------------------
((Your opinion differs from mine and some old line wing chun masters with extensive exposure and background in wing chun
but diferences of opinion is ok. )))

Censored asks:

What is real Qi Gong?

(( There are many different kinds of chi gong practices- not a simple cafeteria. Verbally- chi gong/hay gong involves developing one's chi capacity and using at will for specific purposes when needed. In some wing chun families without makinga big deal out of it- correct ygkym and slt done intentionally and regularly has built in chi gung to it. In families that have more of mechanics models or Gray's antomy approach or where the stance or structure development is quite different, the chi gong development is not automatic or optimal IMO.
For martial use of chi gong it needs to be coordinated with the
motions and structure one will be using. That is why taiji standing and wc standing are different paths in their structural details.
But they both have some commonality when contrated with
sanchin breathing, hung gar breathing, some crane style breathing, halting breathing, tensing and dynamic tension.

My own understanding is informed opinion ( of course opinion neverthless) and not casual and reinforced with experience and exposure to first class yogis(prana=chi), taiji teachers, and wing chun masters. Considerable triangulation and correlations on the process.
Actually, Hendrik has attempted to discuss this in several of his past posts...
from his perspective- but it probably got drowned out in other noise.

There is also special chi gong routines for strengthening different internal organs- more for health..the martial aspects are there but indirect.

In any case good guidance is important- wrong kind of chi gong
can have adverse effects))

[anerlich]

That's cute, but a little naïve.

I'm following the example of your glib initial post. Credit yourself with the precedent.

And people say *I* am snide and surly. :rolleyes:

Are pranayama and ROSS-based Dhikaniye, not ot mention a number of other Oriental or Western practices qigong? Because that's what I'm talking about. RMA in particular make no reference to qi or any analogous concept in their methodology. Perhaps we are discussing different definitions here.

Care to elaborate (unless it's more content free smarta$$ criticism)?

[jucraze]

I know for sure that in the Moy Yat and Ip Ching styles the first section of siu nim tao is played very slowly for qigong purposes. It was said Ip Man would play that section for at least an hour a day. In my school it was encouraged. Not only to help develop explosive energy, but to help develop the horse. If you have no horse, you have no kung fu.

Me? I am too scientific to believe in chi. If you ask me, chi is simply the electrical nerve energy that flows through your body. It can't travel through the air but the shock can be transferred through a medium (such as your arm) to your opponent. This energy is strengthened and trained by intense concentration through very, very slow movement. This is logical to me since everything in your body develops through intense usage (why not your nerves?) and nerve energy is guided through the mind (much like chi is said to). Since breathing is known to affect thought (duh) the relationship here is logical as well. I could go much deeper from here hehe.

Since that energy is always flowing through your body, if you stay still long enough your body parts will jerk about on thier own. Try the tan sao part of siu nim tao and stretch out the movement (movement concentrated on the elbow) to at least fifteen minutes and you will see what I mean.

[yuanfen]

jucraze sez:

Me? I am too scientific to believe in chi.

(Misuse of the term "scientific" IMO. But then....sigh)) .

[namron]

Originally posted by jucraze
I know for sure that in the Moy Yat and Ip Ching styles the first section of siu nim tao is played very slowly for qigong purposes. It was said Ip Man would play that section for at least an hour a day. In my school it was encouraged. Not only to help develop explosive energy, but to help develop the horse. If you have no horse, you have no kung fu.


I would have thought it was more to do with developing the muscle conditioning in the horse and arms, rather than explosive power since the movement is played out for so long?

[yuanfen]

Namron wonders:

I would have thought it was more to do with developing the muscle conditioning in the horse and arms, rather than explosive power since the movement is played out for so long?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Less to do with muscle conditioning, more to do with alignmnets IMO

[jucraze]

Actually, the word scientific is an adjective and I used it correctly.

The internal aspects of Siu Nim Tao were those that were told to me by my sifu, and also described by Grandmasters Ip Chun and Ip Ching at thier First United States Tour from Jan 22nd, 1995 thru Jan 31st, 1995. There they held Seminars where they answered many questions about ving tsun and went into detail about the forms with information given to them by Ip Man himself. I have a transcript full of notes but that would take waaaay too much time to post.

Im sure Hung Fa Yi practitioners might have something to say on this. Not that I know any, but "IF" (edited for those who cant read in BIG LETTERS) they are (as they believe themselves to be) the original form of ving tsun then perhaps they might have an internal element to speak about.

[black and blue]

Im sure Hung Fa Yi practitioners might have something to say on this. Not that I know any, but if they are the original form of ving tsun...

:D Slick my friend, slick :rolleyes:

[yuanfen]

jucraze- ""Scientific", "science" deals with disciplined procedures-
not persons.. a person is not "scientific",,, Newton could be and was scientific in some things in his equations and laws-- he was
not particulatly scientific in several other areas including his alchemy and search for gold.

We daily confirm lots of things in this world without being "scientific"--- particularly areas of interactions between living conscious organisms... love , hate, body language , attraction, repulsion...

And the ancestors of wing chun didnt wait for modern western science- experimentally, experientially and analytically they arrived at the amazing art.

All great martial arts have elements of internal and external-the starting points vary.

You must be kidding in assuming that xyz is the ancestor of my art.

Your profile is pretty blank. Part of the problem on this list is
that with the extensive anonymity- and various marketing and trolling- sustained serious conversations are few and far between. So- who are you?

[[Censored]]

Perhaps we are discussing different definitions here.
If you think that any willful breathing exercise can be fairly excluded from "qigong", then as I suggested before, you should check a dictionary. I'm sorry if that suggestion hurts your feelings.

I know for sure that in the Moy Yat and Ip Ching styles the first section of siu nim tao is played very slowly for qigong purposes.
Why the first section of SNT? Why not any other section or any other form? And why do "qigong purposes" require that be played very slowly? Specifically?

It was said Ip Man would play that section for at least an hour a day.
When and by whom?

[couch]

It almost looks like the qigong/or internal training that is in a few systems of Wing Chun:
Fut Sao Wing Chun & Yuen Kay-San Wing Chun Kuen...
to name a couple...

is missing from mine...

...or perhaps isn't being practised by my Sifu's students or shown to us students of those students on a regular basis.

Thanks everyone. This has prompted me to look at other "systems" of Wing Chun and see that the internal part of the art is there.

Sincerely,
Couch

[Phenix]

Originally posted by couch
is missing from mine...

Couch


Why have to go that far?

As soon as one does YJKYM the WCK way, not the Hung Gar or Shao LIn way, IMHO, the seed of internal or qi ... whatever people want to call it. is there.

The beauty of SLT is everything is there. IMHO.

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

This is very interesting. While I don't know much about TCM or Qi gong details, it seems that if one does SLT or pole training correctly, he will experience this internal power naturally. Strike a match and you will have fire although you may not know why it works.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,
Strike a match and you will have fire although you may not know why it works.

Pual,
Here is another qoute from Shurangama sutra. enjoy!



Ucchushma came before the Buddha, put his palms
together, bowed at the Buddha¡¦s feet, and said to the Buddha,
¡§I can still remember how many kalpas ago I was filled with
excessive greed and desire. There was a Buddha in the world
named King of Emptiness. He said that people with too much
desire turn into a raging mass of fire. He taught me to
contemplate the coolness and warmth throughout my entire
body.

¡§A spiritual light coalesced inside and transformed my
thoughts of excessive lust into the fire of wisdom. After that,
when any of the Buddhas summoned me, they used the name
¡¥fire-head Varja.¡¦

¡§From the strength of the fire-light samadhi, I accomplished
Arhatship. I made a great vow that when each of the Buddhas
accomplishes the way, I will be a powerful knight and in person
subdue the demons¡¦ hatred.


¡§The Buddha asks about perfect penetration. I used
attentive contemplation of the effects of heat in my body and
mind, until it became unobstructed and penetrating and all my
outflows were consumed. I produced a blazing brilliance and
ascended to enlightenment. This is the foremost method.¡¨



PS: There is hinden A key behind the YJKYM which will turn on the fire, and even in today's, KuoLIn Qi Gong uses the same key. KuoLin QiGong is used to treat Cancer. It adapt this key from E12P...... Thus, the stories goes on... it is about Spring.. give others a better life for living.

[PaulH]

Well, the Dan Tien is the furnace of heat from Classical Chinese writing. So I guess the 1st step is to experience the fire in your body and then use your mind to set and guide this fire to a penetrating outflow. That is what I guess from the passage. No excessive emotion like anger or fury is allowed in this method.

P.S it also mentions about unobstructed flows. So I guess no tension (mental or body)is allowed too"Fire-head Varja" - Is this the fire that purify (Buddhist wisdom)? Common saying says to set your heart on fire, but I wonder if the passage says to do likewise with your mind. Could it be your whole being is like a fire the very symbol of that fire head varja?

Okay, this is my final parting thoughts. 1st passage deal with the danger of let your emotions run amok and the need for comtemplation to cool that raging fire. 2nd and 3rd deal with letting go of the demon of hatred inside you and transform inwardly into wisdom fire. The last is the natural outflow of fire from such transformation. Did I pass the test? Ha! Ha!

[anerlich]

If you think that any willful breathing exercise can be fairly excluded from "qigong", then as I suggested before, you should check a dictionary.

I looked at the Shorter OED, dictionary.com, Macquarie dictionary.
Not in there. Perhaps you could direct me to another source?

I understood it from a 40-year Australian KF practitioner means "Qi working" - and if your paradigm doesn't have qi in it, like some that I mentioned above, then that definition surely cannot apply.

I'm sorry if that suggestion hurts your feelings.
My, but you *do* have an inflated view of your abilities and influence.

[[Censored]]

I understood it from a 40-year Australian KF practitioner means "Qi working" - and if your paradigm doesn't have qi in it, like some that I mentioned above, then that definition surely cannot apply.

Qi means energy, air, breath, etc, depending on context. Like it or not, these are all related, and I assumed that all longtime CMA practitioners knew that.

That is why I said your comment was cute; it's like sitting in a bathtub and insisting that although you've covered with water, you're not really "wet".

Anyway, the more interesting question IMO is why the first section of the first form is particularly relevant to qigong, and I hope someone here will address it.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Well, the Dan Tien is the furnace of heat from Classical Chinese writing. ....


That is they way they wrote however they just show where is the lock without the key.

Check into Kou LIn Qigong and find that out for yourself what is the key. Since the founder of Kou Lin learn and import E12P stuffs to implement into her qigong.
E12P method is great.
It does help people with cancer to heal.....

I think this is more important then how many trophy one has or how many guys one can beat.

[S.Teebas]

Hi Couch,


If you're interested in the internal aspects of WC I recommend reading the article "The Hidden Power of Siu Nim Tau". This is one of my favourite articles by Master Tsui Sheung Tin:

http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/HiddenPowerOfSNT_remix.html

[yuanfen]

Different paradigms at work on "Chi". Some dont find the concept useful. Given my pre-kung fu background as well as kung fu- I find the term meanigful and useful and comes quite naturally.
But chi is not the same as breath- though specific breathing regimens can assist with the "gong"--- the development process.

Doing things very slowly helps connect mind/body and energy-
a common goal in chi gong.

For those wc folks who do it- why the first section? The first section comtains the mother motions of wing chun!

[jucraze]

Originally posted by yuanfen
jucraze- ""Scientific", "science" deals with disciplined procedures-
not persons.. a person is not "scientific",,, Newton could be and was scientific in some things in his equations and laws-- he was
not particulatly scientific in several other areas including his alchemy and search for gold.

Here is an excerpt from Websters dictionary:
3. Having a knowledge of science, or of a science; evincing science or systematic knowledge; as, a scientific chemist; a scientific reasoner; a scientific argument.

An adjective can be used to describe ANY noun. Thus a person can be scientific. Any further grammer problems look it up yourself.



[i]We daily confirm lots of things in this world without being "scientific"--- particularly areas of interactions between living conscious organisms... love , hate, body language , attraction, repulsion...

And the ancestors of wing chun didnt wait for modern western science- experimentally, experientially and analytically they arrived at the amazing art. [/B]

Yes that is true but philosophy, western or eastern, is the predecessor of modern science. It simply puts the theory to the test in an attempt to prove it wrong. If you wish to believe in magic, by all means do so. But I will not.


[i] All great martial arts have elements of internal and external-the starting points vary.[/B]

I never said otherwise.


[i]You must be kidding in assuming that xyz is the ancestor of my art.[/B]

It is not my assumption it is theirs. I am a student in the Moy Yat family anyway. However I do have a former kung fu uncle by the name of Benny Meng and if you ever read any of his articles you would know he raves about it like that.


[i]Your profile is pretty blank. Part of the problem on this list is that with the extensive anonymity- and various marketing and trolling- sustained serious conversations are few and far between. So- who are you? [/B]

I am here for intelligent conversation ONLY and I sustain my conversations as you can see... Its funny how you seem to "research" me as if rank was a part of this art. I do not choose to brag about my accomplishments and frankly, I dont care about anyone elses. Anything else for me to rebut?

[anerlich]

Qi means energy, air, breath, etc, depending on context. Like it or not, these are all related, and I assumed that all longtime CMA practitioners knew that.

I agree the CONCEPTS are *related*. As a longtime CMA practitioner I did indeed know that.

I do not agree they are *identical* or interchangeable. I do not agree that breathing and Qigong have the same meaning. Surely Qigong is the conscious cultivation and storage of the Qi, whereas breathing is an autonomic function essential to life which can also be consciously controlled..

There are some breathing patterns that are toxic, hyperventilation and the like. Are these also Qigong?

Anyway, enough trivial bickering over semantics with veiled or unveiled insults thrown in. Unless YOU want to keep going just for the "sheer joy" of it... :rolleyes:

[jucraze]

I know for sure that in the Moy Yat and Ip Ching styles the first section of siu nim tao is played very slowly for qigong purposes.
Why the first section of SNT? Why not any other section or any other form? And why do "qigong purposes" require that be played very slowly? Specifically? [/B]

Well to answer this question would give away some kung fu. Care to ask your own sifu?


It was said Ip Man would play that section for at least an hour a day.
When and by whom? [/B]

In the same seminars I have referenced. If you would like, perhaps when I am finished with my work, I can make a soft copy of the notes that you can all download.

I am such a nice guy =D.

[yylee]

Hi Joy


Originally posted by yuanfen
Different paradigms at work on "Chi". Some dont find the concept useful.


as far as theory/concept goes, the Chi cultivated along the 12 Meridians (which distributed mostly along limb muscles) will "spill over" and flow into the more "enlightening" channels, such as the Ren and Dok Channels in Chinese Qigong or Chakras as you mentioned in many posts. Some Qigong people like KouLin (as mentioned by Phenix) stresses the importance of activating the 12 Meridians (heart, lung, kidney... Yin/Yangs) before doing anything with Ren/Dok. That may have been the E12P influence from Dr. Chow.



For those wc folks who do it- why the first section? The first section comtains the mother motions of wing chun!

IHMO, it is easier to feel that Qi/Energy/NimLik with the Folk Sau "shape". Guess why the Wu Sau bends the wrist the other way ;)

[Phenix]

YY,

Actually, there is a move in SLT/SNT can use to open up or ignite the body's core qi flow.

if this key part of the body is not activate, chances is the body chi flow is weak. and the 12 medirians are not flowing strong too. if this part got turn on then one will be healtier.


KuoLin, learn such a key from DR. Chow, gate keeper of E12P including the other stuffs. and her treatment of cancer qigong set based on the needs to "ignite" this point.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix
YY,

Actually, there is a move in SLT/SNT can use to open up or ignite the body's core qi flow.

if this key part of the body is not activate, chances is the body chi flow is weak. and the 12 medirians are not flowing strong too. if this part got turn on then one will be healtier.


KuoLin, learn such a key from DR. Chow, gate keeper of E12P including the other stuffs. and her treatment of cancer qigong set based on the needs to "ignite" this point.

what? the key to the core of the Matrix mainframe? Gotta go rescue the Keymaker from Meravigian, hope his beautiful wife Presphony will help :D

I thought KuoLin just says that open/close is the key to rise/sink? So don't know that key you're referring to then....

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee


what? the key to the Matrix? Gotta go rescue the Keymaker from Meravigian, hope his beautiful wife Presphony will help :D

I thought KuoLin just says that open/close is the key to rise/sink? So don't know that key you're referring to then....

Well, I like the way how Lucy walks in Kill Bill :D


Think,
open/close what? which part?
and if that part is not open up. nothing works in E12P and KuoLin. That critical.

I show my SLT in WCML seminal years ago. DR, John kind of spot what I did. :D

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix


Think,
open/close what? which part?
and if that part is not open up. nothing works in E12P and KuoLin. That critical.

I show my SLT in WCML seminal years ago. DR, John kind of spot what I did. :D

I was just reading up KuoLin's stuff on a different web site, she says the "Meng Mun" (gate of life) has to be open, that's where the kidney and Low Dan Tien are located.

[yuanfen]

Notes(in brackets) on jucraze's post addressing yuanfen::

Any further grammer problems look it up yourself.

((Not a question of GRAMMAR-but one of meaning))



Yes that is true but philosophy, western or eastern, is the predecessor of modern science.

((Any philosophy? Big baggage to carry))

If you wish to believe in magic, by all means do so. But I will not.

((Far be it for me to try and change your belief- whatever it is.
Science is a very complex subject and there is magic and paradoxes in it too.))




I am a student in the Moy Yat family anyway. However I do have a former kung fu uncle by the name of Benny Meng and if you ever read any of his articles you would know he raves about it like that.

((Not my problem))




I am here for intelligent conversation ONLY and I sustain my conversations as you can see...

((Good luck in your conversation))

Anything else for me to rebute?


(("Rebute"? No!!))

[yuanfen]

yylee or phoenix-
is there any of koulin's views on the net?

[yylee]

Originally posted by yuanfen
yylee or phoenix-
is there any of koulin's views on the net?

Joy

this one is in SF:

http://alternativehealing.org/guolin_qigong_cancer_support.htm

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
yylee or phoenix-
is there any of koulin's views on the net?





Joy,
watch out for all the shoulder width stance :D

SLT has a very sweet sister.



http://www.alternativehealing.org/guolin_qigong_detail.htm


http://www.orientalhealing.net/archive/03282000-3.html
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/1/8/abstract
http://www.orientalhealing.net/archive/10032000.html
http://www.alternativehealing.org/guolin%20qigong%



Note: this Guo LIn is a she who invented this qigong and had passed away . not the same Shi Guo LIn of Shao Lin.

[jucraze]

[i]((Not a question of GRAMMAR-but one of meaning))[/B]

It is a question of grammer and if you still don't know, the meaning is also there if you can read. Where were you educated anyway? Usage of a word is denoted by grammatical classification. Do you know what an adjective is? If not, please take the time to look it up. This should be common knowledge. I have decided not to flame you on this thread for being ignorant. You are a ving tsun practitioner. If you don't believe me on this, then search for yourself.


[i] ((Any philosophy? Big baggage to carry))[/B]

Yep. Even the chinese practice science on thier own philosophy. Hard to believe isn't it? Please read something.


[i](("Rebute"? No!!)) [/B]

I stand corrected. Rebut. A simple spelling error. It happens to all of us. There are some of us who have little time to worry about simple spelling errors when typing.

With that said, I don't see a need to write on this thread any longer. There are many others here who are making very good posts. We shouldn't be spamming a pointless debate on grammer.

[yuanfen]

Hendrik- Thanks for the link. The site
advertises qigong and viagra as well!
Standing stake apparently has several different meanings!

[glenn richards]

Jucraze
Arrogance becomes you
regards
Glenn

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik- Thanks for the link. The site
advertises qigong and viagra as well!
Standing stake apparently has several different meanings!


LOL. well, is the qigong as effective as viagra then it is scientific right? :D

Thus, we need the Fire Head Varja's teaching dispite of it is qigong or viagra---- to get rid the lust and hatret. :D

[yuanfen]

I leave the viagra to the Bob Doles amd Kissingers and others who have left politics. Henry K when younger used to say that
power was the ultimate aphrodisiac. I dont know whether he meant California Edison.
Knowing where my jung sum sin is in yee gee kim yeung ma
is good enough for me. The muladhara chakra lights up-with the proper intent....nature at work.

[[Censored]]

For those wc folks who do it- why the first section? The first section comtains the mother motions of wing chun!

Pardon me for getting technical. Bong sao is definitely one of the mother motions, and it isn't in the first section of your form AFAIK. So again, even if the purpose is to infuse your WC with (whatever), why the first section specifically? Or is it just an arbitrary division?

[yuanfen]

Censored-

Not arbitrary at all, The seed of the bong sao is there in the first section as well as the fok and tan. Ip Man was a thinking man.
Very little of what he did was without a reason IMO.

[yuanfen]

If that sounds weird- go with what is good for you. Trying to keep debates to a minimum.

[yuanfen]

I wrote an article on this in KF a little over a year or so ago.
I dont know whether KF has back issues on the net.

[[Censored]]

If that sounds weird- go with what is good for you. Trying to keep debates to a minimum.

It doesn't sound weird and I am not debating you. You say Ip Man had a reason...so what is it then? Don't be coy.

[PaulH]

Actually there is an explanation for this. You always start from the simple to the complex, or the basic to the profound. It's progressive training in essence - very much like from the basic ABC to abstract ideas and variety of expressions. The focal lense of WC motions is found in these three terrors of WC hands. Thus you must start with them in the beginning and not at the middle nor the end.

[Andrew Williams]

Could any of those whom practice the cultivation of chi please bother to enlighten me as to the benefits of "internal training".

I am not asking about health benefits, but am of those martial. I must admit (though I have real no agenda here, apart from a curiosity that extends beyond acceptance through faith), I have yet to experience the "force" so often described by the many Martial Artists professing to be able to apply said energy in a combative arena.

I have measured the electrical activity of the muscle tissue of one martial artist (only one, because others asked have not been willing to submit to any testing), and his measurements were as one would expect from any person executing the same movements without the benefit of internal training. I mention this, as I have often read and been told that one reason for developing internal power is that one requires less muscle fibre activation than a non-practitioner in order to perform a powerful movement or inflict damage to and/or control an opponent.

Also, I have been told and read that chi energy somehow is able to pass from one person into another. (Again I am keeping my question to combat) And the energy is then able to damage the internal structures of the body. Is anyone aware of any evidence, apart from conjecture, which exists that proves that the resulting damage was caused by a metamorphosed energy force as opposed to a blunt trauma force.

Thankyou for your patience in this matter, I have long searched and been ever hopefully of finding someone that is able to perform these extraordinary feats but alas have so far been disappointed.

Regards Andrew Williams.

P.S. though I am no expert I have a rough understanding of liquid/membrane behaviour, force potential’s etc and am hoping the matter can be discussed with this in mind. If you are able please keep to empirical rationales.

[Phenix]

Chi is no more then breathing or blood circulation. If one know how to make used of it great. if not chi is still there.

The first sign of monitoring of chi is to experience it accumulate in one's body. and automatically, one get healtier similar with if one breath better to inhale more oxigen or eat leass oily but more fibel and vegi to promote better blood circulation.

As for Martial art benifit, without knowing clearly who is Chi how can one make use of it?

Chi doesn't guarentee a better fighter. but chi guarentee a better operate body.

As Sun Tzu said, it is not about strong or weak but it is about solid and hollow. Thus, strengthen of body and mind doesn't mean victory in war.

So does a Zen master or a Qigong master doesn't mean advance martial art. eventhough they have body/mind benifit.


SLT has the Chi training because Chi is another degree of freedom. when SLT limited itself in YJKYM it has to go accesing different degree of freedom to make up the power.

for example, if we don't have enough realestate area for power generation. we turn into Neuclear power plan where one needs less realestate area and can generate greater power.

So, IMHO, me need to activate that "neuclear power generator" within SLT/YJKYM. That is where those ying/yang medirians, chakras..... craps comes in. Bottom line, we are limited to a shoulder width stance, we have to do it soft and gradual, so we need the power generator which is different than Hung Gar of Shao LIn.

and we need to keep the "water pipe" or all power channel smooth, flexible, and well maintain so that we can shoot out the spear finger or inch Jing, without anything stuck or stagnation in the path.

again, this is not Shao Lin hard style which tensing the heck of the local muscle and push or punch out.

just my two cents.

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

I share the same fascination of Chi in MA use like Andrew. With all due respects, I agree with you that awareness of Chi is the 1st step, but your points above still fall in the category of health benefits which has been proven already. So far I tend to view it more of a mind focus power where you gather all your body power and release it into a concentrated point/punch/hit something like a whip force. How do you use it from your experience?


Regards,

PH

P.S. Thanks, just saw your edited post, so how do we go about proving empirically the difference of normal body use and that coupled with internal power generation channels?

[[Censored]]

Is anyone aware of any evidence, apart from conjecture, which exists that proves that the resulting damage was caused by a metamorphosed energy force as opposed to a blunt trauma force.
Can anyone cause injury with a light touch, or no touch at all? Is that the question? This is a martial art forum, you have to use small words. ;)

SLT has the Chi training because Chi is another degree of freedom. when SLT limited itself in YJKYM it has to go accesing different degree of freedom to make up the power.
Yes, good explanation!

[Phenix]

Paul,

You have to go to my seminal to learn the fighting with Chi.
The Chi for health is free for advertising purpose. :D

There is a different between using mind to align the force vector and manual chi while fajing. IMHO.

Those who doesn't know about chi manualling will have red face when they forcing issuing energy. serious. Because they breath in and breath out without channaling the chi. so while breath out, the chi go up to face and head. like when you get mad and shouting....

[Phenix]

Paul,

You have to go to my seminal to learn the fighting with Chi.
The Chi for health is free for advertising purpose. :D

There is a different between using mind to align the force vector and manual chi while fajing. IMHO.

A common thing, Those who doesn't know about chi manualling might have red face when they forcing issuing energy. serious. Because they breath in and breath out forcefully without channaling the chi. so while inhale, the chi stuck in the chest and breath out, the chi go up to face and head. like when you get mad and shouting....
disregards of how they ki-ai it doesn't work well.

Any body has this type of experience, stop the training. don't develop high blood pressure problem or damagaing the retina if you have thick glasses.

AS my late sifu Cho Hong-Choy told me, while I am doing Tenso one time, it doesn't going down right?

[PaulH]

I take it, Hendrik, that you will show this at the coming Friendship Seminar? That would make it very worthwhile by itself to be there! Thanks! My blocked head is cleared now! Ha! Ha!

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by Andrew Williams
I have yet to experience the "force" so often described by the many Martial Artists professing to be able to apply said energy in a combative arena.

I doubt anyone that spends decades training to develop substantial chi would then up and decide to fight in something as lowly as a UFC venue

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
I take it, Hendrik, that you will show this at the coming Friendship Seminar? That would make it very worthwhile by itself to be there! Thanks! My blocked head is cleared now! Ha! Ha!


If I don't travel to asia I am very likely be there.
So bring your pillow. :D

[PaulH]

The pillow is all, Hendrik! This is a true Kuen Kuit! So I bring my body instead. Ha! Ha!

[joy chaudhuri]

Hi Andrew- a bit on the run. Saw your post-hence a brief quick reply.

1. There are many meanings of "Chi" ... a "Siu"(forget the rest) wrote anice little book on its many meanings- and he has some background in philosophy of science. In any field there are varying levels of competence.

2. Health and martial activity are not unrelated. The chi paradigm is different from western bio mechanical ones--- though since both attempt to capture nature- there is bound to be overlapping
in actuality though the languages and even indicators can be different..

3. Using chi martially without contact--- lots of hokey in there.
But chi usage seems to involve less muscle tension than non usage.

4. Usage will vary with ability and understanding. I dont know much about the details of who is who in wing chun in Australia.

But Chen Xiao Wang of taiji is in australia. He wont feela need of proving the existence of chi.or showing it at UFC. But if you geta chance to attend any seminar where he demonstrates fajing- you might check into it.

Chi development is a natural by product of correct alignment and dynamics in taji and wing chun though those are two quite different arts. It needs no exaggeration or adornment- it is a natural process-but being natural is not always easy.

Regards, Joy

[Andrew Williams]

I thank you all for your responses so far. However, I was hoping that someone might offer me some evidence. I ask this with no facetiousness. Any that know me could tell you that I have a very open mind on the matter.

I do dislike the charlatans that prey on the weak mind, those amongst us prepared to believe any mysterious explanation or pseudo-scientific explanation for what is going on. But not those preyed upon (i say this with some chagrin, as I was once one of those blind enough to follow without question). This is not an attack on our present company, I respect far too many amongst you for that.

My search is an honest one, I would be delighted to hear about what you have experienced, my only caveat, is that it has some means of measurement other than a level of compliance or romantic fancy.

The health benefits of Chi training/cultivation was not my issue, I am a health practitioner that makes use of both “western and eastern” paradigms. Having said that, happily as the sciences march on and take a belated interest in the "alternate health sciences", they seem better able to explain what is going on when say needling techniques are used. Do not read “prove or disprove”.

“combative arena” was a reference to the arena of fighting, not the UFC. I’ve long believed that most MA’s fail dismally in that arena, for many reasons, and that perhaps those most able to demonstrate the affects of CHI are far too dignified to enter that sort of competition.

Cheers Joy, the person of which you speak is many many miles from me, but you have mentioned them before.

I have met/trained with people with enormous power, my first gung fu sifu (sifu Roger Smart) had that, and with little apparent effort he could do amazing things, truly preternatural acts. I believe it has more to do with the fact that he was an extraordinary athlete than it was a matter of CHI.

Hendrick, your prose is entertaining, and worth much more than the few cent value you gave it.

Regards Andrew Williams

[Repulsive Monkey]

Those who simply say that Chi is nothing more than breathing and blood circulation are half right and half wrong.
Qi moves via the blood system and is initiated into the body through breathing, but for it's effects to be really felt and to be improved upon some recognised Qi Gong training is vital.
To develop Qi for good health and also for martial applications one needs to be guided through Qi Gongs to enhance these attributes.
This primarily involves not using muscle strength, opening the joints ijn a relaxed manner neither too Yin nor too strectched and too Yang either. This kind of co-ordinates with a stable and open body posture, so obviously alignment is key so that qi is allowed to flow unhindered from toe to head.
Although breathing ascends qi into the body is totally the job of one's mind to direct it for what ever purposes one is training for. This is why intention or Yi needs to be trained too.
It's like a whip if you don't manipulate the handle correctly then the flexible part of the whip will never execute with power or direction. The mind is the handle and the flexible part of the whip is the qi. Qi for martial application sits dormant unless it is stirred and directed by the Mind. And when the qi is directed the muscles MUST remain relaxed. If for one moment the muscles tense themselves then the qi becomes blocked and it is just muscular force being used, and one wears the body down in it's efforts and strength.

[yuanfen]

Andrew W._ I understand both your skepticism and open mindedness. Mistaking forms of athletic
/muscle manipulation is far too often mistaken for advanced chi development.
In the CMA paradigms- chi is life force- one couldnt move without chi-- so the real issue is do the paradigms show the way of developing certain kinds of explosive power that is different from
normal strong man training regimens.
I regard "empty force" martial stuff and dim mak at a distance as
fraudulent.
Fraud occurs with eastern and western paradigms as well.... not to mention various chemical enhancers in sports.
One of the issues with aspects of some eastern paradigms- is
that "proof" is individuated- in one's own development of mind , body and spirit. Controlled experimentation on some of these paradigms is a fairly recent in character.

Some of the people I know of whom I would say that they understand chi devlopment are also not likely to lend themselves for controlled experimentation--- issues of time, money and even self assurance.

You mentioned your previous instructor Smart- I understood your point. Unfortunately,Often folks with athletic attributes convince others that they are aware of chi devlopment. In a modest way---trying to understand chi development has helped the martial aspects of my own wing chun and in getting a better understanding of the various "jings". I dont use
and have not used dumbells and barbells and other muscle enhancing equipment. And even before I began the knives and pole- I could sense the benefits. Perhaps its in my "mind" but paradoxically the mind hasa lot to do with chi development in the chi paradigms.

Repulsive monkey- good post--- folks often mistake the vehicles-
breath and blood for the phenomenon of chi. The only comment Iwill add is that there are different methods of chi development
and learning the usage also needs to be activity specific- thus taiji motions and wing chun motions are intrinsically and structurally different. When wing chun motions are done right-
the pathways for better chi flow are also enhanced IMO.

[[Censored]]

One basic qigong skill is redistributing the blood in your body. For example, leading it to the arms, which will make them literally and observably hotter, softer, and heavier. Soft and heavy are two attributes you may have already correlated with martial skill--depending on your experience. Of course, any body can do this by swinging their arms around for a few mintues; the "trick" is in doing it without moving at all.

There are some semi-public schools that train combat qi specifically, one is run by Kosta Danaos I believe. Be careful about approaching them for "proof", you might get less, or more, than you hoped for. ;)

[yuanfen]

Hi Toby- thanks for your kind note. No misunderstanding I dont think. Sifu Roger was not the focal point of my comments on Andrews post. I accept what you say. Thanks.

[yuanfen]

Thanks Toby. No I didnt think that way. I have a sense for what Andrew W's interests are and the distinctions that he makes. He was after clarification of the claims re the martial use of chi and verifying those empirically.