Too much Yang TJQ influence??

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Hi All.

This is kinda a difficult topic to discuss and might I might not be the best person to explain what I mean.

Now I study Chen TJQ and I have found that quiet a few of our students seem to follow more YANG TJQ guidelines & ideas rather than the ones from our style.
There are even differences between our Chen substyle and other substyles.

I have observed a similar thing on many boards where people seem to take that Yang TJQ principles/classics/etc as being universal for all styles.

Now this might be due to lack of literature on styles other than Yang TJQ, marketing or for other reasons.
It might also be due to the way that the PRC forms are often classed as yang.

In my class we got quiet a few students who had prior TJQ training(PRC, Sun, Yang, etc.) and with those I can understand that letting go of existing concepts might be a bit harder.

I know that there are a few people on here that studied multiple TJQ styles, do you share my opinion or not.

Is yang influence affecting the perception of other TJQ styles.
I.e. slow movements, constant speed, Yin/yang = balanced and not switching between extremes, etc.

Many people kinda appear shocked when they see some of our guys perform a 83 movement form in about 5 min. including jumps, stomps, etc.
In my last style the same length form would have been closer to 16 min.

Started to rant, let me know your thoughts.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey


Is yang influence affecting the perception of other TJQ styles.
I.e. slow movements, constant speed, Yin/yang = balanced and not switching between extremes, etc.
Somewhat, yes. MOST Yang style out there is done only for exercise. If there is any push hands training, it usually doesn't evolve into full contact training of any kind(or even close). Chen does all of that because it's goals are MARTIAL. Fast/Slow, stillness/action, etc.. good skills to have in a fight. I have heard of a few Yang schools that do forms fast with jing and train full contact, but I have not seen any of them. I don't understand how it would be so hard to break Yang "habits", though. What I was taught concerning the pace of your forms training is that you do forms slow (like most Yang) for working on posture, rooting, and health. Do them at a medium pace to gain more "flow" in the linkage of the movements. Do them fast for power and speed. And hell, you can apply that to any style.

le kinda appear shocked when they see some of our guys perform a 83 movement form in about 5 min. including jumps, stomps, etc.
In my last style the same length form would have been closer to 16 min.

Did they know it was supposed to be a Martial art?:D Heh, that reminds me of the time I actually got yelled at in a park by some gal for doing my Taiji fast:rolleyes: .

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain

I don't understand how it would be so hard to break Yang "habits", though.

Some of our students been doing other styles for quiet a few years, and got those styles pretty strongly ingrained.

In my style we never withdraw power back, where one movement ends it is also the beginning of the next movement.
Which as you will know differs from the more common Chen style.

This and a few other differences are what makes it tougher, it took me a few months before my Sifu stopped correcting things I did like in the old style.

AFAIK, there are only 5 books that exist about my specific style and only 1 has been translated from Chinese so far.

[GLW]

Actually, my experience has been the opposite.

First, of all of the students that I have had come into my class that stated they had learned Taijiquan before, ALL of them had very poor basics and I ended up correcting a lot of things in the simplest areas before I could move them onto new stuff.

About 50% of them will marvel at the basics as applied to form and other work..and then quit because they come up with the realization that they spent their previous time NOT learning correctly. It is simply easier for a person to quit than to admit that they pursued a bad path. It is human nature...happens in my professional life too...you know, the project that is going badly and wasting a lot of time and money...but due to the amount of time and money already spent, no one is willing to pull the plug on...so the project and waste goes on... Same thing.

Anyway, the ones that are most difficult to deal with are the Chen style people. They tend to want to make EVERYTHING look like Chen. Sun should look like Sun, Yang like Yang, Chen like Chen.

There are a number of common principles in ALL styles of Taijiquan. Then you have what my teacher would call "Special Places" or the techniques and principles that seemed to embody that particular styles nuances. You have to show the general principles AND the "Special Places" to do it right.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Serious study of Yang Style will reveal the spirals (originally hidden).. it will reveal the combat effectiveness (not clearly apparent in the slow form)..

At the classes i teach we do the Yang 108, 24 and 42 at varying speeds, with varying pauses and explosions (Chen-like) and explore the combat effectiveness.. i have not begun teaching Chen style yet, i am still setting-up the ground-work (basics, QiGong, silk-reeling, etc...) so that when i do begin teaching Chen, the essentials are already in place.. we also explore sword and staff techniques through controlled weapon sparring (great fun)..

In short, it has been my experience that Yang style Tai Chi is equally effective and quite complimentary to Chen style. The addition of ChinNa is complimentary to both styles and adds the necessary level of "control" (ie: control the conflict with progressive applications to the point of neutralizing the threat).. Too often we see fighters neutralize the threat, then continue to inflict pain and injury.. it is my belief that this lacks honor.. that is not to say that if the opponent continues the struggle, that we shouldn't respond with appropriate force.. but, once the opponent has been neutralized (defeated) there is no honor in continuing to harm.. To the best of my ability (which is limited) i try to teach the students to heal as well hurt.. it is the Balance of Yin/Yang.. if we can't fix what we break, we shouldn't break it in the first place..

My students have placed well 2nds and 3rds at international tournaments in the push-hands competitions.. ( i have been fortunate, during my competitive years, to bring home some gold).. so we do take the pushing sreiously.. more-so we explore straight-foreward street application, otherwise you are correct.. to not teach the martial aspect of Taiji, is to reduce it to choreography for health.. which is all that some people want, and that's okay.. we should not be so exclusive that we turn away those seeking only health benefits.. though, i usually ask them how healthy they would feel laying in a hospital bed after suffering a good thrashing by some mugger, etc... Taiji is many things, we should offer it all and look to the student's wishes for a program that suits them... Remember, they pay us..

Yikes, once again i'm rambling.. sorry.. Be well...

[bamboo_ leaf]

I don’t think we can say this is right or that is right, the right way is in accordance with your beliefs, experience and what way you choose to follow.

Some have tried for many yrs and have found themselves maybe on the wrong road from what they thought they where on. Nothing wrong with that if they can change once they see it. Some even if they see it don’t really want to change.

I would say that honesty in practice and in really what is it that you want will guide your practice. Nothing wrong with using force speed and all the other things that take a way from certain ideas IMO, also nothing wrong with just playing just for health. Just be honest about it, find and seek what you really want.

Having played other CMA arts I always find it confusing when people talk of fighting and taiji. The mind set of the other arts I played was very different, predatory in nature, as those arts where about overcoming the other using attributes that they advocate and develop.

Seeking to use the others intent and force seems to be a very different idea. Not allowing tension in the body is also different as well as not trying to do something or setting something up.

I think it really does take a while to change the mind and body to be empty and flexable, maybe to long for those looking to learn how to fight.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

GLW.

Since I have started Chen I must say that I find it very difficult to go back to my previous style.
Somehow the Chen TJQ always seems to come through.
;)

[GLW]

Taiji Monkey...

Exactly ...

Personally, I sort of feel that if you do Yang and Chen comes out, quit doing Yang and focus your energy on Chen...it is where your heart is anyway.

After all, it is not like there aren't enough Yang Style folks in the world. :)

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by GLW
Taiji Monkey...

Exactly ...

Personally, I sort of feel that if you do Yang and Chen comes out, quit doing Yang and focus your energy on Chen...it is where your heart is anyway.

After all, it is not like there aren't enough Yang Style folks in the world. :)

Yeah, I am now focusing on my Chen style and don't play the old forms anymore.

OTOH, I have played around with some of the movements from my previous TJQ style and looked on how I can incorporate them into my current style.

Most are very similar, but a few I have noticed I got probs incorporating.
:eek:

[wujimon]

I've also encountered a similar thing as taiji monkey, that is, since training in chen, I find it very hard to do yang style with yang flavor. It's that darn "chen creep" .. I forgot where I ran across this term, but I think it was somewhere on this board.

To me, I find it very difficult to keep the styles distinct as they soon start blending into one another. A similar thing happened when I started training in TT Liang's yang after doing PRC 24 and 48 set forms. Perhaps I haven't practiced the yang stuff enough, but I like GLW's comment regarding "where the heart is".

At times, I feel bad that I don't practice the old sets as I want to try and retain them. I guess there just aren't enough hours in the day... :)

As for if yang influence affecting ppl's perception on taiji, I would think so as it's probably the most popular form of taiji and ppl have preconceived notions of what taiji is. Personally, I like to mix things up... sometimes I do chen very slowly and evenly, sometimes a bit faster/lower/higher/etc etc tho, I've never really gone thru the set at full spped. That's something I will have to try in the near future.

Interesting topic :)
w.