Emin Boztepe

[AndyM]

Hi, I just attended a seminar by Emin.

I just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on his Anti-Grappling System?

[rogue]

It's excellent. I've noticed BJJ schools folding like cheap suits because of it.:p


I've never seen it.:D

[AndyM]

Rogue, I'm no newbie here mate.

Nor a 14 year old seminar junkie.

Let me get some comments in before you 'flame on' please.

[anerlich]

Well, Andy, you've attended the seminar and I haven't.

What thoughts do YOU have on it?

I've got a BJJ blue belt and about 4 years training, as well as WC, so I'd be very interested to hear your impressions thereof.

Does "antigrappling" include groundfighting?

Is it the same, or different, than the stuff currently being offered by the Wing Tsun organisation?

How do you think it stacks up to BJJ? Or judo, sambo, ....

Do you think it would work for anyone, or only for someone with Emin's reputedly formidable attributes and skill?

Could Emin beat Royce with it (only joking!)

Except for the last, these are serious questions.

If you want a discussion, contribute your own ideas.

(Please don't tell me to get my a$$ to a seminar - I live in Australia, he'd have to come here because I sure can't justify the expense of going there)

[PHILBERT]

I have seen the video on Emin Boztepe's anti-grappling. When RTB gets wiff of this thread, he'll post more since he is WT.

Though I've only met Emin once, I was amazed at his level and skill. From what I could tell, while the anti-grappling is not "grappling" per se, with "Lets do a triangle choke while we chain punch the guy in the face" it does have ground fighting to it. It is more of a "ok so he starts to put an arm bar on you, this is the counter to it" and then after they remove the arm bar, they try to smother the opponent, making it difficult for the grappler to escape while the WT person is punching. This is usually with placing a knee on his or her back and arms, holding them down with your weight while punching, eye gouging, etc. There is "grappling" in there, but more of escaping the grappling than "Lets run up and tackle him, triangle choke while chain punching".

[AndyM]

Originally posted by anerlich
.

If you want a discussion, contribute your own ideas.



I didn't ask for a discussion, I asked if anyone had any thoughts on his Anti Grappling system.

I'd have been more inclined to post my own analysis of Emins system, but for the fact that this is such an agressive forum, with people waiting to pounce on your every perceived error.

I'd imagine Emin will get round to Australia sooner or later, his organisation is in 35 countries now.

[PHILBERT]

http://www.ebmas.net/usa/seminare.php?aktion=seminare&stil=WT

There is his seminar schedule through the end of this year. Just click the months to read. He does not have anything scheduled for the rest of this year for Australia.

[rubthebuddha]

i guess a few definitions are in order -- emin doesn't teach a ground game. he teaches a get-off-the-ground game, meaning that you deal with an attacker that's on the ground with you and get yourself in a position from which you can deal with other threats as soon as you can. there's not much focus on grappling for grappling's sake, so someone who wants proper grappling should look elsewhere. you're not going to "out-grapple" a bjj purple belt with wt techniques. if you want to learn how to fight with grapplers, from what i know, emin has a good program.

the goal with this is not to play a grappler's game. if so, you had better have as many hours on the mat as the grappler does. otherwise, he'll have you for lunch. use the standard wt concepts and techniques, and apply them to a grappling context. when done right, it can work well. when done without the proper understanding of both the basic wt and grappling, it'll probably do more harm than good.

in the case of this, as in the case of any system or art, the concepts will only get you so far. regardless of how good emin's program is, it only works if you practice it regularly. i'd liken it to learning to grapple starting from guard, clinch or any other connected position but not working any other ranges -- a good boxer or other stand-up fighter would dominate a disconnected range.

ask kenwingjitsu if you want more info -- he's still with emin's camp, and he does both wt and jj.

[anerlich]

RTB/Philbert,

Thanks. I've had a few interesting email and forum conversations with KWJ. Good guy.

Andy,

I didn't jump down those guys throats, did I? It must be awful to live under the shadow of paranoia.

[AndyM]

Thanks for that.

I actually enjoyed the whole show.
My only real negative comment would be that we were repeatedly falling backwards trying to keep our hands in guard and in use, which mean's I'm sitting on a big fluffy pillow right now with a badly bruised bum and pelvis. :(

I certainly feel it's a valuable addition to WT WC VT whatever.

From a self defence, anti rape point of view certainly.

Against a pro grappler, you'd be lucky if it worked once and gave you the chance to get back on your feet. Then again, that's better than lying back and waiting for the inevitable to happen.

Emin pointed out his background as including 15 years of wrestling, 5 years of boxing and Thai Boxing as well as time spent in Shotokan and TKD also.

The guy can certainly move a bit.

I don't doubt that his system works for him, like everything else though, unless students have the same understanding of it, and are willing to put the same amount of time in as he has, then you won't be seeing EBMAS people winning the UFC anytime soon.

I can only hope that people practicing the system go out and pressure test it against others with real grappling experience, otherwise it'll be useless. To be fair to Emin, as he said, he's providing some useful tools, it's up to others to practice them and absorb them into what they do.

What was really interesting, is that a lot of the system is based on the same mechanics and logic as the upright version of VT. There was much discussion of centerline and structure.

All in all, the seminar was worth the reasonable cost, and I hope others here get the chance to check it out with an open mind, rather than being tainted by the mans history.

[russellsherry]

hi andy , it was interesting, to read your and rub the bubbsa word"s on ground fighting , emin "S ideas are very good and practical as a disabled, person their is no way i could last 2 minutes on the ground, i perfer to get up as quick as posiable, and make them fight my way not theirs wing chun is supposed to be a defence against , grabbing we should not get into their game phil and the other"S are right about this i like emin"S way a lot i hope to meet him one day peace russellsherry

[AndyM]

I'm in an odd position as I'm happy with the training I do currently, and blagged my way into Emins seminar with no intention of ever joining EBMAS. I've currently got an excellent WC Sifu, and am pursuing DBMA style Eskrima.

Regardless of the debated effectiveness of each and every MA style/system blah blah blah. I judged Emin to be a very interesting and devoted person, with a genuine regard for the people around him.

Haunted by the past yes.
Daunted by the future no!

[anerlich]

Andy,

Interesting stuff mate. Sounds like it was mostly defence against takedowns rather than escaping pins, submission attempts and the like?

I've got a strangely shaped fifth lumbar vertebra with a bony part that juts out. I absolutely HATE landing on my butt and lower back, because it gets bruised all the time that way. I've learned to fall backward rolling slightly to the side so that the impact is absorbed by other body parts.

I'd much rather sprawl on top of the guy and make his face eat the concrete rather than my rear. A decent sprawl can have you back up on your feet very quickly in any case if you don't want to groundfight, just about every "sprawl and brawl" UFC fighter learns to do this when they take on submission grapplers and ground and pound artistes. There's certainly centreline and structural elements in sprawling correctly.

You might want to have a look at the recent WC weapons thread. EnterTheWhip/WhippingHand/KengGeng ventured that DBMA was a joke, perhaps you could educate him.

[AndyM]

Originally posted by anerlich


You might want to have a look at the recent WC weapons thread. EnterTheWhip/WhippingHand/KengGeng ventured that DBMA was a joke, perhaps you could educate him.

Trolltastic! I'm there :D


Sounds like it was mostly defence against takedowns rather than escaping pins, submission attempts and the like?

More along the lines of avoiding/removing initial entries to positional mounts and making an opening to regain your feet.
Potentially, this might frustrate a novice grappler into overextending themselves. My partner for the day was an experienced Judoka, but I managed to get him in a triangle choke and a neck crank because it ruined his game plan.

[Haggis]

Hi AndyM,
I'm the big guy from your other forum :cool:

For the others, I was also at that seminar, and have been reviewing what we trained this week.
Basically, it's to do with keeping a coherent WT structure, in situations where you end up grounded, rather than attempting to add on BJJ for example, where the posture can be a little different.

The main emphasis (in BJJ terms) was an offensive use of the far (open) guard, while keeping the WT centreline to your opponent.
He emphasised the same concepts as fighting standup - if your arm is trapped / leg gets passed, hit with the other limb as the path is cleared etc etc. Hitting the guy with rapid punches if he gets within range. Not chasing him for subs, but always looking for offensive opportunities for getting back to feet / KO.

Lots of upkicking (a la Renzo vs Sak). We also used it when your opponent is kneeling trying to pass your open guard, where we were kicking the legs, keeping posture and creating space.

I liked the material, but have seen most of it before either in shoot classes or my WT line (Nick Smart). The main difference was its cohesive structure and continuity from standup.

I think if drilled as well as your standup, it is a useful tool. Perhaps not as useful as learning proper grappling, but not everyone wants that, and it does fit in with the system - doesn't look bolted on as an afterthought (although it probably was LOL) :)

Just my quick ramblings,
Cheers.

[AndyM]

Hi Rich *waves* :D

[Haggis]

Hi Andy **waves back** :cool:

[AndrewS]

AndyM,

as one of Emin's students here's my take on the anti-grappling stuff:

It's basically solid, and its main advantage is that it emphasizes learning counters based on the standup game of WT. It's very self-defense oriented, nice for the street, but doesn't address some MMA or sub-grappling stuff. On the flip side, it generally goes for some decent percentage stuff for someone trying to pound your face in on pavement.

It's limited by the amount of time put in training it, and the caliber of opponent you train it against, as well as the breadth of experience of those who train it. If it isn't worked regularily against people who have some idea how to grapple, it ain't gonna fly.

Personally, before I started formal grappling training, I had decent luck applying it live against a variety of grapplers. Now that I've started to grapple seriously, it's an excellent guide to how I want to develop my game in grappling (an aggressive, positionally oriented style, trying to be a bit less static than most guys my size). The more time I spend on the mat, the better I understand what sifu Emin does, and why he's able to do it.

I think the bottom line is that it's a nice set of basics for self-defense if drilled regularly and properly. The more time you spend on the mat the better you'll be able to see how to make it work, and create your own game based on it, and the extent to which it integrates with WT's standup is helpful in making it work.

Later,

Andrew

[reneritchie]

Great stuff!

[planetwc]

Andrew,

Thanks for taking the time to share the details and your personal insight into Emin's anti-grappling approach. Between you and folks like KenWingJitsu we get a real sense of the effectiveness based on your crosstraining in WT and BJJ.

[AndrewS]

David,

that post comes off as derogatory and catty. I'd suggest you rephrase things, unless you're looking for a fight.

If you are looking for a fight, I'm up for it- I'll go at 235 in 2 months or 245 tommorrow. If that's too big for you, I'm sure we can find someone in your weight class.

As I said in my post- my experience, prior to formal training in grappling, going out and using the antigrappling against a variety of resisting opponents from various disciplines has been positive, and the approach taught by Emin is commensurate with that which I have found in good ground work elsewhere. Amazingly, grappling schools are good places to refine groundwork, kinda like boxing rings do nice things for learning your timing.


Andrew

[Ernie]

andrew
If you are looking for a fight, I'm up for it- I'll go at 235 in 2 months or 245 tommorrow

meet me down at 195 , and we can have a party :D
what's up bro and congrats on your last victory , keep up the good work ,
see you around the way soon

[AndyM]

Originally posted by AndrewS
I think the bottom line is that it's a nice set of basics for self-defense if drilled regularly and properly. The more time you spend on the mat the better you'll be able to see how to make it work, and create your own game based on it, and the extent to which it integrates with WT's standup is helpful in making it work.



Thanks for commenting Andrew.

Emin did stress that it was no use unless people put some time into it.

I wanted to ask if he encouraged his students to go test it outside of the WT environment, but bottled it as I was something of a 'ringer' primarily interested in reviewing Emin for another website.

I've got a mate who's forgotten more about grappling than most people know, so I hope to get his thoughts on it all soon.

I've only just found out that BJJ has also landed in my area. I don't really have enough time to become accomplished at this, but I aim to look into it soon.

Andy

[planetwc]

Huh? You talkin to me willis?

I meant that sincerely. I've wondered about Emin's approaches to deal grappling based on what I've heard of the German WT anti-grappling approach and comments from BJJ guys on that.

Again, what I like is that you and Kenwingjitsu actually train in BJJ and grappling so you can actually GIVE a meaningfull response on the subject. Meaning that you guys are really training in BJJ and in the EBMAS system and have enough experience in both to say how things are.

I'm also aware of Emin's own crosstraining in Muay Thai and Turkish Oil Wrestling combined with his amazing physical attributes and training regimen.

Too often folks will speak dismissively about people cross training especially WC folks with regards to grappling. You would be surprised some of the grief *I* get within our group about discussions on the topic. I've talked briefly with folks from Kamon Wing Chun about their experiences with BJJ and WC which were quite positive. I've heard other BJJ guys feel that WC and BJJ would be counter intuitive, and not mesh well, which seemed surprising to me.

That said I am glad to see people training on dealing with grappling in whatever context, be it anti grappling of EBMAS or via BJJ or GCW.

Anyway, I'm around 235 or 240 myself, but probably not QUITE close to the condition you are in. :P

Go back reread my post, I wasn't being sarcastic--I wouldn't be that subtle. :)


Originally posted by AndrewS
David,

that post comes off as derogatory and catty. I'd suggest you rephrase things, unless you're looking for a fight.

If you are looking for a fight, I'm up for it- I'll go at 235 in 2 months or 245 tommorrow. If that's too big for you, I'm sure we can find someone in your weight class.

As I said in my post- my experience, prior to formal training in grappling, going out and using the antigrappling against a variety of resisting opponents from various disciplines has been positive, and the approach taught by Emin is commensurate with that which I have found in good ground work elsewhere. Amazingly, grappling schools are good places to refine groundwork, kinda like boxing rings do nice things for learning your timing.


Andrew

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by AndrewS
David,

that post comes off as derogatory and catty. I'd suggest you rephrase things, unless you're looking for a fight.

Hi Andrew,

I didn't respond to this because I couldn't believe you were talking to PlanetWC. His post was sincerely complimentary.

Regards,

[AndrewS]

David,

cool, misunderstanding clear. A lot of the antigrappling stuff is really only starting to click for me now that I have more grappling experience and good partners to work with. I think grappling can blend very nicely with Wing Chun, approached properly.

AndyM,

sifu has actively encouraged people to go make friends from other arts (notably boxers and wrestlers) and work with them for as long as I've known him. He also enjoys grappling for fun and encourages the people who already put in good work on our Wing Chun to grapple for conditioning and understanding.

Ernie,

Thanks man, my work schedule is mellowing a little now. Let's get some time in.

Gotta run,

Andrew

[planetwc]

It's all good dude. No Worries.

I already lost an NHB match with my son's bedframe. Ripped a nice gash on the top of my foot on Friday. The match was called due to blood loss on my part.

5 stitches and a tetnus shot later, and I eye that thing warily when I enter the room. I was doing some cleaning of the room and moving the bed to clean under it when it attacked me. I thought I must have hit a vein the way blood was pouring out of me. No pain, just lots of blood.

So I'm 0-1 against that particular bed. :p :eek: :rolleyes:

I met a real iron bridge and came up short.

:D

[yuanfen]

Sorry to hear about injury David. My sled pulling dog pulls me into an encounter from time to time witha mesquite tree with head knocking out growths very very early in the morning-when I venture out to tilt at windmills... i have lost several of those encounters.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Fellas:

Still can't figure out for the life of me why some wing chun people still don't get it about crosstraining - even if it's just adding some anti-grappling (although going the whole nine yards and also adding grappling...such as BJJ, Catch Wrestling, etc...is even better because more complete).

What striker/kicker in this world can guarantee that they could NEVER be grabbed, or taken down, or put into some sort of submission???

Likewise...what grappler can guarantee that they could never be hit be some heavy knockout-type punches? That they could never be caught with a heavy kick to their legs or lower body?

Real fighting (unarmed) is about five things, it seems to me:

1) Striking
2) Kicking
3) Grabbing
4) Takedowns
5) Submissions

And being able to transition at the blink of an eye from one to three, to two, over to five, back to four, etc. etc ...depending upon the opportunities your opponent gives you and/or the way he reacts to your moves...is the WHOLE GAME IN A NUTSHELL !!!

And the best fighters can do this kind of transition as if it is second-nature to them...because they crosstrain.

This is the reality of today's martial arts world...is it not?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Before anyone gets the idea that the categories are too simplistic...just want to clarify that there are sub-categories within the five I just mentioned...ie. - striking, kicking, grabbing would also have to include sub-categories such as footwork, bridging the gap, attacks, etc...

and takedowns and submissions...would also have sub-categories such as throws, positioning moves, reversal manuevers, etc..

Anyway - back to the original point of my previous post...despite the shortcomings of such events - the UFC, PRIDE, etc. have done the martial arts world a great service by demonstrating the importance of the five categories (or whatever amount of categories you prefer to have) in terms of WHAT IT TAKES to prevail against a formidable fighter WHO IS ALLOWED TO DO ALMOST ANYTHING.

I think that the door that Bruce Lee opened some thirty plus years ago (the eclectic approach of JKD) has led to some great leaps and strides for the whole martial arts world - in terms of realism...for it's hard to hide behind a "mystique" when rules and protective equipment are brought down to a bare minimum (as in the UFC).

Do you recall how convincing some people were...back in the wingchunner day...about the efficiency of the straight blast on the centerline? (by way of one example)...Like the old Peggy Lee song: "Is that all there is?"

Sure...the straight blast (roll punches, chain punches, whatever) is a good manuever when the opportunity presents itself...but it is only one of many moves that can be used in a fight. And once again...before anyone gets the wrong idea...of course wing chun is more than chain punching....but wherever your particular approach to wing chun begins and ends...it is still primarily a strking/kicking (mostly striking) art....

so I'll end this post pretty much where I began the previous one...What striker (ie.- wingchun practitioner) can guarantee that no grappler could ever grab him, tie him up, bring him down, put him into a submission from which he couldn't escape? Who can say these things?

Only someone who has NEVER fought/sparred a high-level grappler type martial artist...that's who !!!

So discussions concerning anti-grappling are helpful because they bring one's "pure" wing chun one step closer to the reality of today's streets.

[AndyM]

Doesn't it all depend on what you train for?

Don't we all have physical limits marked by our age/build/circumstances/experience?

A clear divide for me is whether or not I'm training to deal with Joe Public, or to take on a fellow combat athlete.

[Block]

Hi Victor,

I'm a non grappler (except for WC kum na and fa kum na) and have had no exposure to genuine grapplers. I was wondering, as you seem to have had real experince with grapplers, what do grapplers do to defend themselves from the street tactics of biting, groin grabs, small joint manipulations etc.

I don't wish to start a deep discussion on mixing in grappling with stand up fighting but I have been wondering for some time how grapplers handle these threats.

Cheers
Block

[KenWingJitsu]

lol. I heard about this thread. Glad to see everything's been cleared up.

A little digression: Andrew just fought his first MMA fight...and won. And he trained HARD for it. :) Holla at my boy!!!!!!

As for the 'anti-grappling', (I prefer "counter-grappling" myself, because that's what it really is). everyone has pretty much said what needs to be said. It's basically a quick & easy way to 'survive' a grappling situation/encounter, with emphasis on escapes, striking from anywhere and getting back to your feet. You won't win the Pan Am's with it or out submit seasoned grapplers, but.............if you train it enough & play with a grappler and you're both allowed to strike, it evens the odds tremendously. At the very least it makes it so you're not a fish out of water on the ground.

And if you play with it enough, it just might make you interested enough in that "grappling stuff" to actually try it out seriously. Next thing you know you might be winning BJJ tournies ;)

[PaulH]

Hey KWJ,

I heard Ernie mentioned briefly about this as well. I understand Andrew faced an experienced and very quick kickboxer? on his feet which made the win all the more remarkable. My hearty congratulation on this hard won victory to Andrew.

Regards,

PH

[anerlich]

I'm a non grappler (except for WC kum na and fa kum na) and have had no exposure to genuine grapplers. I was wondering, as you seem to have had real experince with grapplers, what do grapplers do to defend themselves from the street tactics of biting, groin grabs, small joint manipulations etc.

I don't wish to start a deep discussion on mixing in grappling with stand up fighting but I have been wondering for some time how grapplers handle these threats.

There is a BJJ saying: "he who controls, bites."

Grapplers can employ the same strettfighting tactics you can, and if they have you in a clinch or on the ground can do it from a position of superior leverage and control. You know, some grapplers can even punch and kick you in the street! Wow!

It's kind of hard to bite someone who is taking you down with a low single, or has taken your back with an arm drag or duckunder. A street oroiented approach to training will teach any grappler to avoid these tactics.

As for small joint manipulations, these are MUCH lower percentage than the large joint manipultations found in grappling styles (many of which have small joint manipulationsm, thus making your question a bit strange, and practice escapes from them which most fighters don't).

This argument and the multiple opponents one come up all the time. John Danahers's response was best, something like, those stylists who criticise grapping's difficulties with multiple opponents found themselves incapable of beating even one opponent in MMA competition.

Stop *wondering* and find out for yourself. There are good grapplers in Canberra. I think you'll find David Crook form Canberra has quite a good knowledge of such subjects as well, he's been integrating Kum Na from Northern sil Lum and Wing Chun for about 35 years..

If you want to be informed, and not just wonder or discuss imaginary scenarios and tactics, it is not difficult.

Oh yeah BIG PROPS TO ANDREW S!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Block:

Anerlich (Andrew Nerlich) pretty much said it all as regards your questions directed at me.

AndrewS: Congrats !!!

KenwWingJitsu: Good post...maybe some folks just might want to try some grappling after getting a taste of anti (counter) grappling....

Why take the ball to the 3 yard line and kick a field goal when you can go the whole nine yards for 7 points ??!!

[old jong]

Originally posted by AndyM
Doesn't it all depend on what you train for?

Don't we all have physical limits marked by our age/build/circumstances/experience?

A clear divide for me is whether or not I'm training to deal with Joe Public, or to take on a fellow combat athlete.

This is a valid and realistic question.99.999999997 and1/2% in Wing Chun are not training for MMA's events.Those like myself,who do a little grappling on the side are not at the same grappling level that the more fanatical grappling enthousiasts. We content ourselves with some basic positional and escaping movements that could be usefull in a street or self-defense situation not the octogon.The idea is to get back in Wing Chun waters as fast as possible. (IMO)

[AndrewS]

Thanks for the congrats. I had a good bit of size on the guy, so I'm not patting myself on the back too hard. I learned a lot and am very happy with the experience and the perspective it has brought me.

Block,

good grapplers (i.e. not meatheads) have a very methodical approach to position and control. They learn a lot of feeling by going live, but don't always explore it explictly (something I want to work on a bit). If they train to watch for the bite, the groin, etc., they'll control those positions. If they don't they are well-equiped to make up control on the fly, but may be startled by 'foul' tactics.

Later,

Andrew

[reneritchie]

When people ask about this stuff, I always remember an old Q & A from noted JKD/BJJ expert Roy Harris on 'grappling' for the street. His response as to what he would do in a street encounter was roughly as follows:

Take the guy down. Bite him on the nipple. When he screamed from that, he would reach down and crush his groin as hard a possible. When he screamed from that, he would take his chin and jab it in the guy's eye. Then he would get up and either run or curb stomp, as needed.

He also has a great story about biting one of Rickson's students who was unfamiliar with non-sporting aspects of pulling guard. ;)

On the same topic, Harris mentions that while many people talk about 'dirty moves', few actually train them, and thus can't pull off the fine-motor control needed for them under stress. He mentions training just his bite, for example, for years (in a way that minimizes the chance of drawing blood (diseases and all) but maximized pain inflicted).

Whole topic on its own.

[reneritchie]

Congrats Andrew!

Has PrideFC called offering you Matsui yet??? ;)

[Ernie]

rene
on Roy Harris , I have seen and heard great things about this guy he is one of my training partners , fellow instructors from the vunak camp
the art Roy is describing is kina muy Thai , Filipino art of pinching and biting , they blend it in with the bjj control positions, once they lock you or you lock then the commence to '' bite un interrupted '' this is the key it's not just one bite they lock you and train to use the k-9 to rip holes in you they train by strapping steaks under there shirts and time themselves , with in a few seconds they can tear a golf ball size hole in you , there are 12 bite positions on the human body were the nerves are clumped together and they train getting to these spots like we do chi sau , they also incorporate it in trapping and the clinch , in the middle of a punching flurry they have no problem biting a hole in your face ,
I was lucky or unlucky enough to have gone through some of this training and I'll be honest it changes your mindset about combat and the true brutality that one human can inflict on another .

[anerlich]

Hey Ernie,

Interesting stuff!

These guys make Hannibal Lecter sound like a hobbyist.

If there's more to tell on the subject, please do!

[Block]

Thanks Victor and Andrews :)

AN:
I'll definietly check out Crook some time soon.

Cheers
Block

[russellsherry]

hi andy , sorry it took a few day"s to get back to you, it is very good, that yor train in eskrima, i train in eskrima under the top student of guro roland dantes, and though i olny know single and a lttle double stick it has opened my eye"S to many thing"S the more openmined we are the more we learn it is why i respect emin a lot becuase he knows what work:S and what does not . peace russellsherry

[Ernie]

here is something i just found on kina mutai
i do have video on training it , but i'm not sure if i can share have to ask my source

http://www.geocities.com/hellasjeetkunedo/kinamutai.html

[russellsherry]

hi earnie thanks for the information i really enjoyed it peace russell sherry

[russellsherry]

hi andy if you can get a hold of the bruce lee students ed hart The late, mister hart"S ground fighting tape was the best i have seen , mister hart was a unbeliveable martial arts teacher for his age or any ae for that matter peace russellsherry

[yuanfen]

Andrew S. Please accept my congratulations on your win in addition to other posts.

Ernie--There is a guy I know who became a certified instructor with Vunak. For training the student was advocatibg tearing off
- holy cow- raw beefsteak! When he is older- he will probably gum em to death.

[Ernie]

joy
ironically the very same day I decided to start learning wing chun I ran into one of vunaks instructors and for the first few years I trained in both systems ,
even though I have been focused on wing chun for some time now , the experiences and training situations I was subjected to , really forced me to take a good hard look at myself and the reality and horror of combat .
no disrespect to any wing chun system mine included but I have yet to run across a group of individuals with that much honest street fighting ability ,
to this day I am great friends with my jkd friend , even Gary and Hawkins love this guy and often go to lunch and share and compare concepts and training methods , I love listening to those guys talk , and you would be amazed more often then not they find similarities instead of differences ,
many of my views and experiments have come from being a fly on that wall , and witnessing first hand how if you stay true to your basics , on can help the other on a conceptual level , and especially on a emotional level those guys subject themselves to such extremes .

mind you I have also met a few bums , in fact more of them didn't impress men then did but the guys who got it , aren't to be messed with .

as for the training with meat I didn't do that I'm a vegetarian , but I have gone through the main points , and to be honest I have been known to bit people in chi sau , when they get overly aggressive or silly , it really freaks them out .