The Purest Lineage

[BentMonk]

As a practitioner of possibly the most debated art on this board, I am curious. There are many well read and intelligent people on this board. With that in mind, what do you consider to be most authentic CMA style, in terms of verifiable historic lineage, current level of modern acceptance, etc.

[norther practitioner]

Ching Woo, BSL, Nanjing long fist, Henan Shaolin are some of the Northern which usually have some impressive lineages, if of course you are imressed with lineage.

[BentMonk]

I started this thread because I figured with all the research some have done to disprove the lineage of my chosen style, that same energy could be applied to verify others. I was just wondering which TCMA's out there had the most supposedly credible lineage. I really don't think any art has a completely pure lineage. I just wanted to look at the other side of the coin so to speak.

[norther practitioner]

I really don't think any art has a completely pure lineage.

Depends on ones definition of, "Pure lineage."

[brothernumber9]

I don't think there is such a thing as the most authentic CMA.

Several or more styles can trace thier lineages back to the founder with little to no argument. Choy Lay Fut is 5 or 6 or little more generations deep and easily traces back to Chan heung or Jeong Yim depending on specifics of beliefs of who actually formalized it.
Hung Ga, regardless of branch traces back to Hung Hei Goon.
Hungfut regardless of branch traces back to Wun Lei.
Bagua has very strong documented lineage to Dong Haichuan.
Bak Mei has strongly documented lineage.

Take your pick they're all authentic and there's lots more.

[norther practitioner]

Oh, try saying that in the WC forum...lol

actually, ask some of the mantis guys, or the monks students, taiji practitioners....

[Ray Pina]

Actually, I don't trust anything Shaolin. Shoalin has been gone along time already. All the real monks had been killed or disapeared a very long time ago.

I would say Ba Gua. It's a relatively new style. My master is fourth generation and can easily trace it back to the founder (check website below).

On the other hand, my master has developed his own style, E-chuan. I never liked hearing something like that before, because it always seemed like a run off of an original, like Yi-Chuan. That's just Hsing-I's little brother. Cliff notes doesn't = newm, to me.

But as far as E-Chuan goes, I've honestly never seen anything like it before. You can see where soe things have Ba Gua influence, or Hsing-I or grandmaster Lui's Flying Dragon system in it, but there's a lot of new stuff in there, especially the kicking (NEVER seen kicking like that before), punching and ground work.

So, in that regard, I'm getting it from the source. I highly recomend anyone visiting NYC to check it out. At the very least it will make you go, hhhmmmmm.

[BentMonk]

NP & BN9 & EF - I've done a lot of reading on this myself both before and after I started studying SD. I agee the "pure lineage' is a loaded statement. Thanks for the good posts though. I hope this thread continues along that line. I love learning anything, but especially about MA. :)

[Shaolin-Do]

Lineage isnt important... A competent instructor is. (and appropriate and worthwhile material)

[count]

The purest lineages are the ones with the least forms.:p

[Ray Pina]

Lineage is a funny thing. I think it IS and ISN'T important.

I don't care about belts or names or who invented what, never had. But at the same time I care about quality.

If I wanted to learn Irish step dancing, should I study with Mike O'tool, the Irish champion from 93' to '03, or should I study with Leroy Shavon Brown from Harlem, who learned from Fernando Chavez, who learned from Xing Ming Han who learned from some guy named Peter Mcturrley, but he only study for a year, and was actually adopted and doesn't know if he's Irish, German or Portugues. Perhaps they are all good dancers. Maybe they are not.

Funny thing is you will already have to know a good deal about Irish step to know. Otherwise they may just have good rythm.

Actually, what I consider good kung fu (no matter style, including Japanese and western) is rare. You don't see it too often. You see a lot of brute strenght, and guys with a lot of ability who train hard. All very good. But there is a certain something that seperates training hard and training correctly and very often folks confuse one for the other.

[norther practitioner]

I don't trust anything Shaolin.
Understandable in some circumstances.. but don't you think you're alienating a large group of viable cmas?





Actually, what I consider good kung fu (no matter style, including Japanese and western) is rare. You don't see it too often. You see a lot of brute strenght, and guys with a lot of ability who train hard. All very good. But there is a certain something that seperates training hard and training correctly and very often folks confuse one for the other.

I agree to a point.. but what does this have to do with lineage?

[Shaolin-Do]

Good point. I trust my competency to determine what works and what doesnt however... Some styles just have a 'feel' that others dont as well...

[Chinwoo-er]

Purest lineage:

I create a style
I teach it to one student
When he die, the style dies with him

No possible space for 'corruption'

:D

[Ray Pina]

I studied Hung Gar and Wing Chun for about 5 years and S. Mantis for about 3 years during that time.

Hung Gar, honestly, I think is poison. Yes, it has power, but it is for the big guy only. If you are 140lbs and studying Hung Gar you are fooling yourself. I know Iron Wire ... IT IS NOT INTERNAL! In fact, anyone who studies internal will tell you it is actually AGAINST internal principles.

Wing Chun I think is pretty good. It teaches economy of movement and sticking, which is very important. It's weakness is how it uses bong sau. It is easily flipped leading to a broken arm. And it's weight distribution is not practical for fighting.

S. Mantis, is you find a good teacher, is very good but not healthy. The way they close their door puts pressure on the heart and their reverse breathing is not healthy. My S. Mantis teacher almost died, had to get opened up and have his intenstines moved back into place. His teacher had skin like a snake about to shed and looked older than he was, as apposed to my master who looks 20 years younger than he is.

Don't know enough Bak Mei to comment.

The main problem I have with Shaolin styles are that they are technique based. They talk too much about what to do instead of how to do it. This is just my experince. My Hung Gar/Wing Chun teacher learned from sifu Frank Yee and Robert Chu. My S. Mantis teacher learned from a Mr. Milton Chin. Those that know that name, know it.

I will also say this about Shaolin. WC and Hung Gar are popular in S. China, with villagers and farmers, the ones that had most reason to leave for the US, this their popularity here. You don't hear about them up north in the capital, certainly never dazzling anyone in tournaments and had zero connection to security at any of the palaces.

This sounds like a pro- internal post. But I am someone who studied external his entire life until getting beaten by an internalist. I saw something different and made the change and can honestly say in just under three years I'm a new man.

No style is perfect and you have to find what works for you. I found shaolin works well under certain conditions but not others. A BJJ guy would have killed me 2 years ago. Now I am succesful against them. A boxer would have killed me 2 years ago, now, I'm doing alright against them.

I know the argument of, maybe it's what you learned. But I consider myself a quick learner and, since this is a lineage thread, it be hard to finder a tighter one concering Hung Gar in the US and even Wing Chun. I enjoyed those styles and learned a lot. With out Wing Chun I could never understand my master now. It would be difficult. WC gave me 4 arms, a prerequisite at my master's school.

I view that time as high school. It was time to go onto college and a PHD.

I mean no insult by any of this. This is just my experience and opinion. I hope I don't get 50 IM challenges now.:D

[NorthernShaolin]

I think your name says it it all for you and your skills. You evolved to another level of understanding of which is neither good, bad or indifferent about how you discovered about different styles as you see from your eyes. Whatever you believe will work for you.

[norther practitioner]

I understand your post E fist...
I'm just playing devils advocat here...
Do you think with that time invested in E chuan that you would have learned maybe not all but some of those skills through your former arts. Do you atribute it to the style, the teacher (and his/her methods) etc....
Can you expand on your thoughts that some things are too technique driven.

[Ray Pina]

I'm lucky about a few things:

One, my teacher has been training MA for about 60 years, with the best of the best the past 20 years or so.

I'm also lucky that my teacher hates bull$hit! No mystical talk, just hard principles that can be/and are put to the test.

He teaches an idea: "This is how you shield." Then you put your shield up and let someone with boxing gloves pound it till you trust it is strong ... at first there is cooperation, where the other does not try to trick.

Then, "This is how you absorb." Absorb the blows.

Then, "This is how you use your elbows to block rounded or low strikes, so you can hit while shielding." Now the other guy can do anything and you block. Both wear headgear.

ALong with that training you learn how to generate power by driving off the back leg. How to use your shoulder/back to punch instead of bicep/tricep. Then how to use the whole body.

Notice how there is no "technique", no do A, then B then C and you win. Just ideas.

Some new guys come from other schools and want to spar after a weak and they are not allowed. They're used to just kicking and punching and dancing around and think the seniors are all armchair. Then they test them in a line drill and get put on their a$$ ... I was one of those new students, too.

It's a bit different in aproach. My master wants to give us the formula, not the product.

It's kind of funny talking about this over the Web. What I do when I meet others is allow them to try and collapse and me and show how I can either A) dump their weight to the side, or B) use mechanics to make me surprisingly stronger and uncollapseable. Then we switch, and I collapse them.

They always get frustrated and start with a, "But then I can do thi...." Then hey get hit. We can both do things. I don't like when people get collapsed and then say, I can kick (shoalin thinking). I can kick too. How do you solve the problem without disengaging?

Again though, I know this is the web and everything should be taken with a grain of salt. E-chuan is new (energy, evolution and change (chinese character). I don't claim energy because I am still mostly at the mechanics level, only know a little about chi development and usage. But it's my goal to take this style to the forefront where it can by discussed and critiqued by the MA community at large. I have found what I've always been looking for and I love it and my master. It has returned that white belt feeling to me. Everytime I think I know something my master shows me something else that dumbfounds me. Everytime I win a tournament or beat someone my master throws me around. It's a healthy environment where one is challenged to think more than act. And more than anything it is very strong without having to be very strong.

Best in your training, and if you study shaolin I won't be offended if you tell me to go to hell:D You have to believe in what you take to battle. Intention is everything.

Ray

[NorthernShaolin]

Am I missing something here....

"This is how you"....translates the same as technique.

Almost had me.

Case close.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
especially the kicking (NEVER seen kicking like that before),


Please elaborate compadre.

[norther practitioner]

So I'd sort of have to agree with NS...
technique is technique my man.. just depends on HOW you train it.

[Ray Pina]

Yes and no.

Most "technique" that I see being practiced out there is of the pluck the punch out of mid air, apply this lock, and twist like so while stepping over there sort. BUT, if he does this, then use the other hand to come up like this, while taking the other hand and bring it around over here and .....

That is an IF/Then scenario. That will fail under duress because it requires reaction speed and timing. All MA do, but I try to minimize them because I know I am not the fastest.

Boxers do not train this type of "technique". Neither do I. I learn how to drive off the back leg. I learn how to shield and hit while shielding. I will do the same move no matter what you do. When I decide to go I go.

Hard to explain over the web. Picture a tight right cross with a left back hand as a guard. If you throw a left at me I'll get inside with the right cross, tucking my chin inside my bicep, bringing the left over a little for support. But, if you came with the right I still punch with the right cross,still tuck my chin, only I raise the left guard a little to protect my head as I slip inside. Same move, stop two diff attacks. Same vs round kick.

One way of training is trying to remember every possible opening move in chess and its counter. The other is learning the principles.

As for the kick, I promised my teacher I'd never teach it. Sorry. School members only. We don;t care about people seeing the movements too much regarding the hands. They are unique, but without the powersource its lacking. The kicking is different.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
That is an IF/Then scenario. That will fail under duress because it requires reaction speed and timing.


Originally posted by EvolutionFist
If you throw a left at me then I'll get inside with the right cross, tucking my chin inside my bicep, bringing the left over a little for support. But, if you came with the right then I still punch with the right cross,still tuck my chin, only I raise the left guard a little to protect my head as I slip inside

:rolleyes:

[Vash]

Dang, E-Fist. Your style must be the strongest of all. ;)

The hell was this thread about in the first place?

[Shaolin-Do]

Im so confused.

[norther practitioner]

So what you are saying is that your If/then isn't overly specialized... wow, how inovative :rolleyes:

I'm sorry I seem skepticle, but it seems everyone has there "special training" of which I give you props for actually stating, but it just doesn't seem all too different to ways that I train.. in omg long fist....

[Ray Pina]

First, let me make it clear that you asked, and that I never said there was anything "special" about what I do. I just said that I keep it simple and do not react.

This is the part of the internet that I hate. I tried to answer honestly and politely, but I get a bunch of :rolleyes: in return.

I wonder how many of you would do that in person, in a school, where I could hand you a pair of boxing gloves and show you? Or would you be more of the, "oh, maybe" type. "O, let me see."

No, here on the internet everyone already knows. Everyone is a fierce warrior.

Let me say this, I'm 29 and have been training since I was 4. I have long walked away from some of the styles you guys are now training. I know their strenghts and their weaknesses. I know their tendencies. More important I know mine, and what I need to improve on.

I strongly welcome you to come visit me if in NYC area. If you can't, but have a MA friend that you respect his opinions, please have him look me up if here. I'm sure I can show you a thing or two you have not seen before in a manner containing no anger or bad feelings. But when I know the sky is blue and a bevel of Shaw Brother fans swear it is kung fu gold what can you do?

[norther practitioner]

I think you read into that a bit too harshly man... I'm not saying you couldn't show me ****, I'm just saying there are prob. more people that think along those lines even among Styles/systems etc. that you knocked... thats all man.


Or would you be more of the, "oh, maybe" type. "O, let me see."

The O, let me see should be part of everyones training experience, especially going to a school for the first time.





That is an IF/Then scenario. That will fail under duress because it requires reaction speed and timing. All MA do, but I try to minimize them because I know I am not the fastest.

I do agree with you here for the most part... I think some if thens are very critical to training though.... which you also touched upon.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I probably look at this differently than most.

I don't care who was the champion five hundred years ago, and personally think claims of being 'very old' are just stupid. Knowledge evolves - and the arguments we have today about sport vs. combat have been in existance for centuries. Doubt me? Get the book Secrets of The Sword.

But I do care about learning from people who can use what they teach, and can teach what they use.

If the teacher only talks about a glorious history, but is not so glorious himself, and has not produced any top players (by general standards, not the closed standards of his own organization) I find myself questioning what they are selling.

MA education is not like schooling. Harvard may or may not be the best university - but the friendships and connections you make there make it invaluable. In MA it is the skills and attributes you develop.

The problem with this is most of the crappy schools have good press. This is why it behooves most good CMA to get out there and prove we desrve to hang.

And don't tell me we don't have to prove anything...

[rubthebuddha]

And don't tell me we don't have to prove anything... if we want our style to flourish, and we want to bring in more hands to cross and perspectives to add, we **** well better prove ourselves. how we do it and how we gauge when we are successful at doing it -- that's the fun part.

[Vash]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
First, let me make it clear that you asked, and that I never said there was anything "special" about what I do. I just said that I keep it simple and do not react.

This is the part of the internet that I hate. I tried to answer honestly and politely, but I get a bunch of :rolleyes: in return.

Dang straight! No :cool: for you!


I wonder how many of you would do that in person, in a school, where I could hand you a pair of boxing gloves and show you? Or would you be more of the, "oh, maybe" type. "O, let me see."

I don't like boxing gloves. And, since you've had 15 more years experience than I've had TOTAL, I'm guessing I'd still get my @$$ handed to me. But, I'd learn. You'd teach. Party on.


No, here on the internet everyone already knows. Everyone is a fierce warrior.
Let me say this, I'm 29 and have been training since I was 4. I have long walked away from some of the styles you guys are now training. I know their strenghts and their weaknesses. I know their tendencies. More important I know mine, and what I need to improve on.

Why did you walk away from your previous styles?


I strongly welcome you to come visit me if in NYC area. If you can't, but have a MA friend that you respect his opinions, please have him look me up if here. I'm sure I can show you a thing or two you have not seen before in a manner containing no anger or bad feelings. But when I know the sky is blue and a bevel of Shaw Brother fans swear it is kung fu gold what can you do? :cool: :cool:

I accept your challenge! And, I've always wanted to go to the big city . . . :rolleyes:

[hasayfu]

This thread brings up some interesting topic. Here is my POV

I find it hard to find a style that has remained unchanged for more then 100 years. Even Bagua changed drastically after 2nd generation. I also think this isn't a bad thing. Lineage serves, then, not as a measure of greatness but as a bar of excellence. Meaning, if I come from a "new" lineage, then I only have to live up to myself. If I come from a history of champions, if I'm not GREATER then the historical champions, can I claim I am promoting the lineage? Sure I am part of the lineage but not a promoter.

For evolutionfist, I believe I understand where you are come from and agree that what you describe is "poison" I'm glad that you have found a good teacher. I think you agree to that your journey has made your current teacher more valuable and appreciated.

So this is not for you but for others looking at the great art of Hung Gar, I submit it isn't poison. Everything you have stated in this thread is part of Hung Gar. True it starts as what appears to be a technique based systems but that's really a US adaptation since everyone wants applications. Also, you need to have the basic building blocks to apply the concepts. That's why most "internal" styles can't fight their way out of a bag.

The 12 bridges, 5 animals and 5 elements all expound the concepts covered. Read the ancient texts. So like Northern Practioner said, just because a bunch of people don't teach the higher level concepts doesn't mean the style doesn't have it.

[David Jamieson]

Gotta agree with Hasayfu on his pov. mine is relatively the same.
would also add in regards to the Hung fist, that it has definitely refined my skill in martial arts and brought new dimension to my approach to others in potentially confrontational situations.

Now, I don't practice Hung Gar proper (as I call teh Hung hei gwoon or more precisely the Lam sai wing lineages), but what I was taught of Southern Shaolin Black Tiger is heavily flavoured with the same Shaolin principles and techniques as are found in the aforementions "Hung Gar proper" style.

I've always known how to take the fight to someone, but with these principles and techniques, i consider that I have really rounded out that knowledge and my personal attitude towards those also aforementioned potentially confrontational situations.

There is a lot to be said for old methods. They do indeed work.

cheers

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Lineage isnt important... A competent instructor is. (and appropriate and worthwhile material)

i guess that's why you still do SD :D

just to add to the list, i'm surprised someone hasn't mentioned 7 star praying mantis. it has one of the most documented lineages that i've seen in my opinion. check out the family tree. most 7 star guys around the world can trace themselves to a teacher on this tree. of course there are a few gaps after wang lang...oh well.

http://www.geocities.com/mantiscave/frame.htm

click on 7 star on the left.

[diego]

Dan Inosanto's Jeet Kune Do!!!!!!!!!!!.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Good post HSF and others.

To add another point...find the art that suits you best, for in that way it will work for you best. To become good at your chosen art, master technique. To Master your chosen art, transcend technique.

GHD

[David Jamieson]

This (http://www.davidjamieson.com/olly.htm) is where lineage REALLY matters :D

cheers

[Mr. C]

E.F you may not know me, but I'm a friend of the school you attend and just a little concerned with the damages your posts may have on Master Chan's reputation, especially since he's always been a kind and friendly man in a field of con-artists, quacks and downright ego-maniacs

First, please speak for yourself, dont involve others who may of told you things in confidence or may of expressed their opinions to you only. I doubt if they wanted you to be their spokesman on the web or if they wanted their opinions inacurrately published.

Second, Please publish your own address and not someone else's webpage where they can find a school address to bring forth their displeasures with you and ultimately cause trouble for people who have nothing to do with what you post.

Third, If you truly had found kung fu gold, then you would spend all your time polishing it up and not foolishly giving others directions to it.

Fourth. please learn Cantonese (Toisan dialect) or Mandarin to best learn the opinions and beliefs of your master, as english is a second language to him and although his is good , he still can express himself in much clearer detail speaking his native tounge.

Fifth, be kind to your fellow martial artist and dont burn bridges behind you, you may want to change directions again.

__________________

Mr.C