Shaolin-Do Techniques - no history arguments

[Serpent]

OK, a lot of SD people like to say that as their stuff works, who cares about the history. Fair enough, let's critique some techniques.

This is from Mullin's board:



I know that I personally am dominently a striker, probably because I've been taught so. I know we have some grappling in later forms, and chin na is always good when you need it. But, what's the most effective way to fight off a grappler for know.

Just curious, I got to thinking about it when I saw a guy at school today with a wrestling team shirt on and it made me wonder.


Now, there were a lot of suggestions, including some very good ones about learning to sprawl, etc. But there was also this:



Bite an artery out. They will let go. If a ball sack presents itself bite that off as well. (Just gargle a gallon of mouthwash afterwards) Any of the pressure point areas can be bit out as well.


and, from the same person a couple of posts later



I didn't mean hitting pressure points, I meant biting them out. I didn't mean biting, I meant biting out. Grabbing the biggest hunk of flesh in your mouth and doing your best to totally rip it from the body. If an eye exposes itself, stick your thumb into it down to the knuckle.

Note: I am speaking of extreem self defense situations ... not your normal school yard fight, since we have some younger readers here.


Someone then responded with:



don't expect biting and gauging(sp) to help you...your arm will be broken long before you can do either.


to which the reply was:



I guarantee you that I would get my bite in before this happened and/or have blinded the guy. But even if I couldn't ... I am still left with over 9 weapons to use, after my arm has been broken.


The person then simply said:



You're a fool then, but that's really your problem, not mine.


To which the biter replied:



My advice was sound and is the same advice my teacher gives. So in calling me a fool for my comments you were in a way saying the same about him. This grappeling fad is one of the most useless bunch of garabage I have seen in the MA community. That stuff is totally useless in a fight with more than 1 attacker. It is useless in situations where you don't have the floor space to waller around in. About the only place it is effective is in a UFC fighting ring. Because a) You have 1 attacker, b) You have a big open area to lay around and grope each other (No cars in the way nor tables or other people) and c) biting and eye gouges are not allowed.

Have I actually bit out a pressure point? No I have not. Do I know which ones to bite out? You're darn tootin.

<snip>

I will take my teacher's or any of our other master's 30+ years experience over your limited experience.


So this is the crux of the issue.

I've tried to avoid naming any names so that we can just discuss what is being taught within SD. This guy talks bout his teacher and is also a teacher himself.

Off you go, all.

[Bluesman]

In my humble opinion, you're a waste of good cyber space.

[Serpent]

Thanks.

Anyone want to discuss the topic?

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Whats' there to discuss??

Same rant and discussion as on this Board, in short:

Boring, boring, boring, boring, boring did I mention boring already.
;)

[Serpent]

Well, there's a lot of SD debate at the moment and a lot of argument about their history and lienage claims. SD practitioners keep saying to look at their techs not their history and discuss that.

So that's exactly what I'm offering here.

If you think it's boring, bugger off and read something else.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Serpent
Well, there's a lot of SD debate at the moment and a lot of argument about their history and lienage claims. SD practitioners keep saying to look at their techs not their history and discuss that.


Claims are claims every style has some dubious claims.



So that's exactly what I'm offering here.


All I saw over at the Mullins forum was some stupid bickering and the same arguments I here and on other boards
between a few TMA & MMA guys.

It's just talk(Mouth-fu) and ego's being aired.



If you think it's boring, bugger off and read something else.

Naah, I will pop my head in from time to time to see who got something worthwhile to say.

[Serpent]

OK, so discuss. You agree with the biter? You think this is valid techniques for teachers and their teachers to advocate?

Or do you agree with the guy that thinks it's completely foolish?

Or do you have naother opinion all together?

Or are you just posting for the sake of it?

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Serpent
OK, so discuss. You agree with the biter? You think this is valid techniques for teachers and their teachers to advocate?


Depends on what you train for and who you are up against.
For the ring I would say NO.



Or do you agree with the guy that thinks it's completely foolish?


I also don't fully agree with him.

There is nothing that is 100% useless if used at the right time and under the right circumstances.

In a fight situation there are no absolutes, one tech(bite) might not work on one opponent but will get a result on the next.



Or are you just posting for the sake of it?

Naah, I don't have either an agenda or a post-count that I worry about.

[joedoe]

I view biting along with eye gouges and pressure point strikes. Yes, it is a valid technique and it can work, but it is fairly low percentage. Add to that the fact that the attacking weapon is part of your head, and the issues surrounding blood etc it really makes it an attack of last resort.

As for biting pressure points - good luck ;)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe
I view biting along with eye gouges and pressure point strikes. Yes, it is a valid technique and it can work, but it is fairly low percentage. Add to that the fact that the attacking weapon is part of your head, and the issues surrounding blood etc it really makes it an attack of last resort.

As for biting pressure points - good luck ;)

Exactly what I was thinking. And this extremely low percentage tech is being stated as the main defence against grappling in a real self defence situation.

And what about this bit?



I am still left with over 9 weapons to use, after my arm has been broken

[Starchaser107]

there are deseases that travel by blood, if its a life or death thing maybe biting is your Only option , but i wouldnt recommend it, and there are plenty more. no one needs to train a martial art in order to learn how to bite , and eye gouging is not so much a skill as it is basically within the realm of any person under a stressful circumstance to think of.
that being said ...you're not the only person who can bite , or eye gouge, why would you attempt this against a wrestler of all people...someone who has trained in joint manipulation and submission? has this person ever attempted to bite an artery or tear skin off living flesh before? is it as easy as it sounds? how do you know you won't end up giving your attacker a hickey?
just based on the blood transmission thing alone biting is a stupid idea..its risky enough trading blows.
I dunno maybe its just me but I find those comments odd.
I think I see what you're trying to do serp. I hope you get the type of responses you are looking for.

[Starchaser107]

"I am still left with over 9 weapons to use, after my arm has been broken"
I'm under the impression that a broken arm might be a bit painful, and restricting of movement.

[themeecer]

Amazing Serpent ... you actually had a mature moment there friend, by not naming the source of those comments. Let’s see how long this lasts. Those comments were mine. I have read the arguments on that board and here in various threads about biting but I stand by my comments. Of course I am not talking about tactics to be used in the ring, I hardly ever talk about what can be used in a ring.

I have a teacher that specializes in monkey, and as you know ... monkeys tend to bite a lot.

I'm not really worried about diseases that flow in the blood in a life or death situation. My main goal is to incapacitate my attacker.

Ok this is boring. I'll wait till tomorrow when this thread gets lively.

[Skummer]

I saw these comments on the Mullins board a few days ago and tried to reply, but my email address has been banned(?).

Anyway, I think these comments smack of inexperience with proficient grappling. I mean come on, biting chunks out of people?

Meecer, please visit your local bjj, judo, or wrestling school and spend a few months sparring with them and learn why and how they do what they do. I can assure you that biting is probably not the best course of action against a skilled grappler and I think you will learn this as well.

More importantly than the usefulness of these types of "anti-grappling" techniques is the legal ramifications of using them in a typical fight.

I think we can all agree that the typical fight in our adult lives is most likely going to happen in a place with lots of people and lots of alcohol. Given that, most fights that occur are going to be same ol everyday scuffles, not life or death situations. If a drunk tackles you because he thinks you looked at his girl, will you gouge his eye or bite his jugular? If so and are successful, you'll probably end up in prison or being sued.

We don't live in the old west. If somebody attacks you first, you don't necessarily have the right to maim him. Particularly if you have a MA background and he doesn't. Our martial arts must be functional not only physically, but legally as well.

[themeecer]

Given that, most fights that occur are going to be same ol everyday scuffles, not life or death situations. If a drunk tackles you because he thinks you looked at his girl, will you gouge his eye or bite his jugular?
If a drunk tackles me I seriously doubt he is going to break out some BJJ. I would only use my tactics if he was trying to break a limb or seriously hurt me.
Last fight I was in I was a little worried that I would have to use more force than I preferred because I had been in a head on collision with a drunk driver the week before. I got light headed just tilting my head down and knew I would probably fall from just one punch. Fortunately I was able to walk away from that situation with only minor force used. Had there not been other people in the vicinity I probably would have been more precautious and used more force. Point is, all of us should only use the force needed in a situation.

Your email address was banned? It may be because you are using a 'free' email service. You have to use something that you pay for, so you can be tracked.

edit: I hope my above account didn't come off c ocky or anything. I was just agreeing with the previous poster and making a point. I really don't go out looking for fights in real life and have talked my way out a few. (Which I prefer to do) However when it comes to you guys, I'll fight with you all day long. :D

[apoweyn]

Tearing out an artery seems really unlikely to me. Have you tried, in sparring with a grappler, to even get the positions necessary to bite a major artery?

Now, I've got a picture in my head of adapting the knifefighting drill where you put lipstick or chalk on a practice knife to see where you cut the guy. Except in this case, you actually use the lipstick "normally" and see where you could've bitten the guy.

That image is going to haunt me.


Stuart B.

[brothernumber9]

yeah and then your partner goes home to his wife and tries to explain why there's lip stick and mouth prints all over him because of a "martial arts" drill.

[apoweyn]

Exactly :)

[Internal Boxer]

Why use a bite??? surely a chi blast would be more effective, every good SD practioner knows how ineffective grappling really is against their leathal fighting methods!

[brothernumber9]

how about a chi bite? OH SHNAP! I think I just coined the perfect name for a martial arts snack food!

[apoweyn]

"From the people who brought you Ninja Snaps come Chi Bites!"

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Skummer
I saw these comments on the Mullins board a few days ago and tried to reply, but my email address has been banned(?).



Skummer, try a different e-mail address. We've been havinf difficulty with hotmail, yahoo addresses etc. not being approved.

As for the debate: Biting is a last resort and only if life is on the line. It goes both ways and may not work as a good ground fighter will incapacitate you before you have the opportunity. If it's there and you don't have the option you do whatever it takes to live. To the meecer's defense, I don't think he meant biting was the grand end-all-be-all to grappling defense, but it could work in a pinch.

[KC Elbows]

Someone who is familiar with the methods and tactics of groundfighting, and on positioning, will have a far greater number of chances to bite and eye gouge than someone who merely knows how to bite and eyegouge. They are not a defense against ground fighting, they are merely weapons that one might use if they knew how to ground fight, and if they don't, weapons they might get lucky with.

I'm pretty sure there's not one documented case of ANYONE successfully biting off a gonad in a ground fighting situation. But if they did, in some weird comic book sort of world, they should follow it up with:

[IN BEST MACHO MAN RANDY SAVAGE VOICE]: Now Bite Out a Chi Bite! Yeaaaaah!

[brothernumber9]

most people wear clothes, chances are if you try to bite someone in a fight, life or death or whatever unless it's biting them in the hand, neck or facial appendage the biter will probably get a mouth full of fabric and then have their teeth F'd up from the fabric getting wrenched away. Biting someone on the ear seems to only get them mad i.e. holyfield tyson. Biting someone in the nose doesn't seem practically applicable in any scenario.
That leaves pretty much just the neck and hands (and arms if short sleeved or wife beater). Now since the notion was biting against grapplers and targets have been limited by clothes and since grapplers practice protecting their necks and hands/arms all the time, biting, in conclusion seems impractical.

[Judge Pen]

Impracticable? Probably. If the opportunity presents itself would you try it? If your life was on the line.

I think any martial artist should find some good graound fighters and play around to see what it's like to play their game. I have and learned enough to know I don't want to go to the ground (I actually got to where I could go a good 2 or 3 minutes without being forced to tap out, but I had no offense against a good grappler)

Of course there are grappling thechinqes that work in the ring that may be impractibale on the street as well (depending on the clothes worn by you opponent) Techniques the rely on hooking a belt or a "gi choke" come to mind.

[Ray Pina]

Biting, eye guaging, pinching, tickling, licking, whatever, is no different than kicking and punching. You know how to do it and so do I ... IT'S HOW YOU DO IT AND CAN YOU PUT YOURSELF IN A POSITION TO DO IT.

If you have no ground game, a good ground fighter is going to tie you up real well, pin your arms, and you may bend your head at your neck a bit and try to bit the one forearm that pinned you but the other arm will begin beating your senseless.

But, if your training is of the, get mounted, reverse it, pin them, and then bite his neck apart, then OK.

It's just sounding like an emergency tactic. And usually, if the other guy is better than you, he'll get past your emergency tactic as well ... there's a reason you're in trouble.

[Judge Pen]

Exactly. And I think that the meecer was saying this in his own tactful way. ;)

[MasterKiller]

If you read his entire response, I don't think that is what he was trying to say at all. Basically, he said any ground-fighting is useless in 'real' encounters and ground fighting schools are a fad.

[Judge Pen]

Well he was saying that people who only do groundfighting are limiting themselves to one-on-one situations. To that end, I'll agree with you MK.

[ninthdrunk]

I think the name of this thread should be "themeecer techniques- no history arguments".


In that same thread, there was really only the two people "debating" for the longest time. The fact that no other shaolin do students chimed in should mean that most of us would try something else first. Why werent any of the other responses to ground fighters carried over here?

For the record, there was no bickering or petty arguments on the shaolin do forum before folks from over here started to post there. I have to wonder if the poster "debating" with meecer isnt one of our more tenacious detractors from over here. It is funny how that thread is the one being posted over here.

Lets discuss shaolin do techniques if that is the point of this thread.

Ben

[apoweyn]

Fire away. What technique do you want to discuss?

[Chang Style Novice]

My arms are about two and a half feet long and have 360 degrees of movement in two joints (shoulders and wrists) and 180 degrees of movement in a third (elbows.)

My legs are about three feet long, have about 180 degrees of movement in two joints (hips and knees) and about 180 degrees of movement in a third (ankles.)

My neck is about 8 inches long and has a total of about 180 degrees of movement, left and right and up and down.

Let's assume that my opponent has similar proportions and flexibility.

If he's using his arms and legs to control me, and I'm trying to bite him, who's got the advantage in terms of strength, mobility, and reach?

[KC Elbows]

It's funny watching Judge's Pen revise meecer's statements for him.

THEMEECER: I hate blue cheese

POSTER: But you're eating a blue cheese sandwhich.

JUDGE'S PEN: What themeecer was saying is that blue cheese, when improperly aged, is not pleasant. It was in the subtext.

POSTER: There's subtext to [i]I hate blue cheese?

JUDGE'S PEN: Clearly. Next question?

It is correct that this thread has nothing to do with SD other than a few members being on it. However, the lack of disagreement to themeecer's statements on ground fighting on mullin's board do not attest to a higher consciousness of its members- it just says there are less people who ground fight there than here. His statements, despite the revisionism going on, have serious flaws, because they don't relate at all to fighting, but to a couple moves. It's like a ground fighter saying "I don't need to learn standup, if they try to fight me stand up, I'll just rip off their testicles and bite their jugular". It's silly. It's totally ignoring the how and skipping right to the what.

Hey, I'm gonna try.

I don't have to worry about good kickers. I'll just remove their pituitary gland and ruin their credit.

That's fun. Let's try again:

I don't have to worry about the Gracies, I'll just give them Legionnaires disease and drop heavy weights on their hands before committing them to mental wards and causing all of their paperwork to be lost mid IRS audit.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by apoweyn
Now, I've got a picture in my head of adapting the knifefighting drill where you put lipstick or chalk on a practice knife to see where you cut the guy. Except in this case, you actually use the lipstick "normally" and see where you could've bitten the guy.
That's actually a cool idea. I just have to find the right shade for myself, something that brings out my eyes. :D

[themeecer]

KC .. you're dealing with an attorney there, what do you expect. :D He gets paid to argue.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by themeecer
That's actually a cool idea. I just have to find the right shade for myself, something that brings out my eyes. :D

Better yet if it brings out their eyes. *pluck*

[Judge Pen]

KC: Thanks for the laugh. :D Call me the SD spokesperson.

[Brad]

Bite an artery out. They will let go. If a ball sack presents itself bite that off as well. (Just gargle a gallon of mouthwash afterwards) Any of the pressure point areas can be bit out as well.

I don't see how you could possibly BITE out someone's ball sack, unless they're naked, lying down in front of you uncouncious ;) GRABBING can be done(read news stories about women killing abusive husbands/boyfriends this way), but against an experienced grappler... good luck getting yourself in a position to use this. It's this kind of attitude that got that San Soo's(not San Shou) guys arm broken against John Marsh(who emerged from the fight 100% unharmed). These kind of dirty tricks are good to keep in mind, but generally aren't going to work against skilled grapplers. Not to mention, these things are pretty un-neccesary to train and impossible to train with in a safe situation. The most you can do is keep this stuff in mind. I did have a friend who's school would allow biting in their sparring... safe to say, they're all still alive and well ;)


I guarantee you that I would get my bite in before this happened and/or have blinded the guy. But even if I couldn't ... I am still left with over 9 weapons to use, after my arm has been broken.
9 other weapons... Yup. You got your other hand, other elbow, shoulders, head, hips, knees, feet... though, these really don't seem to tie into the original discussion.


My advice was sound and is the same advice my teacher gives. So in calling me a fool for my comments you were in a way saying the same about him. This grappeling fad is one of the most useless bunch of garabage I have seen in the MA community. That stuff is totally useless in a fight with more than 1 attacker. It is useless in situations where you don't have the floor space to waller around in. About the only place it is effective is in a UFC fighting ring. Because a) You have 1 attacker, b) You have a big open area to lay around and grope each other (No cars in the way nor tables or other people) and c) biting and eye gouges are not allowed.

Hmm... lets see... one group uses techniques that work and can be tested daily... the other person advocates using techniques that can't be tested safely and has never used live before... I wonder who knows more about fighting? :D



Have I actually bit out a pressure point? No I have not.
Then you have no place telling someone this is a valid defense against groundfighting. As a teen, I got in a fight taking my oponent to the ground. His mouth and arms never got anywhere near any exposed arteries or my face to use any of the techniques you mentioned. I had 0 training in ground fighting at the time too.



I think the name of this thread should be "themeecer techniques- no history arguments".
Agreed, though if meecer is telling the truth, his idiotic views are being backed up by a fairly high ranking Shaolin-Do instructor... so if I were you guys, I'd be a little worried :D

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Brad
Agreed, though if meecer is telling the truth, his idiotic views are being backed up by a fairly high ranking Shaolin-Do instructor... so if I were you guys, I'd be a little worried :D
Watch it there Brad. You can argue, rib, insult me if you like and it makes you feel like a bigger man, but that comment is down a road that needn't be taken.

[norther practitioner]

Best post by KC ever....lol


I'm sure in 900 forms, you'll find just about any technique that is in any asian art.... Just a thought.

[Brad]

Watch it there Brad. You can argue, rib, insult me if you like and it makes you feel like a bigger man, but that comment is down a road that needn't be taken.
Hit a nerve, did I?

[Brad]

BTW, just read KC's post... LOL :D

[KC Elbows]

Oh, so he's a lawyer. I'll have to rephrase my post then.

THE BELOW POST IS PURELY SATIRICAL, AND IN NO WAY MEANT TO DISAPARRAGE THE MEMBER JUDGE'S PEN, WHO AS FAR AS THE POSTEE, KC ELBOWS, IS AWARE, IS A MAN OF SUCH STRENGTH OF INTEGRITY AS POSSIBLE WHILE STILL PRACTICING LAW.

The poster in the second case, KC ELBOWS, in referrence to the poster in the first case, JUDGE'S PEN, inferred a public representation purely meant to be seen as satirical based on the behavior of the poster in the first part, and not in any way legally binding or in other ways limiting to the lawyerly right to act for the law and in no other way within it.

The poster in the second case then made reference to the postee to the poster in the first case, themeecer, who stated that the anatomical part in the first case(AP-A) could heretofore be removed through judicious overrepresentation of the anatomical part in the second case(AP-B). In thus stating, the poster in the second part failed to adequately cite Mr. Meecer by disregarding Mr. Meecer's caution to readers to use mouthwash, yet not floss or brush, to which the poster in the first part interpretted in a manner not legally binding and again, in no way limiting to the lawyerly right to act in whichever way most closely related to the ancient primates that need not have been our ancestors for the intents and purposes of this case, vis a vis COCHRAN VS. COMMON SENSE.

The poster in the second part then continued by extrapolating a tendency to confuse effects for causes, which for the purposes of this document, need not be seen as any limitation upon the judiciaries'(including, but in no way limited to those with quills) rights to freely and openly toss or fling bodily mass one(BM) in the manner most closely approximated as "practice", as per VON BULOW VS. THE MISSUS.

This document written this day, the 23rd of October, 2003.

The lawyers for Mr. Karl Carruthers Elbows

[Judge Pen]

:D :p :D :p :D :p

My side's hurting I'm laughing so hard from that KC!

[Fu-Pow]

I think Meecer had some valid points.

When I block an attack I try to do it with my teeth.

Yeah...that's right....I just catch the punch in my mouth and bite the hand off.

I call it alligator style. Golden alligator style....you know....like they used to teach in the University of Shaolin system.

Waff abuth tha ethect a ya teef ya athk?

[Starchaser107]

lol:D

[Ralphie]

Since I was the one arguing with "themeecer", I'll add my .02

The advice to bite out a pressure point or a testicle was given as a legit defense against a ground fighter, not as something to use as a last resort or at an opportunistic time. I brought it up because it is bad advice(btw, I said you could do it, but it has a very low possiblity to work). If it's a full on fight, a grappler will try to gain position on the ground, and pound you in the face from either mount or knee on stomach. themeecer was giving this advice to people from a teaching position. It is/was foolish advice. I said there are better ways to defend against a grappler; ones that rely on practicality. He stated that, after gauranteeing that he could gouge and bite before anything could be done to him, if it didn't work he still had his 9 deadly weapons available to him even if his arm was broken. Again, it is beyond foolish to tell the people that you rank over, that they can be effective with a broken arm. Can you fight with a broken arm, yes, but you will be at a severe disadvantage, and your other 9 deadly weapons will be impacted by this as well. it almost seems stupid to be arguing these things, but not as much as offering them as legit defenses.

Monkeys are known to bite, but they are built to more effectively deliver a bite. Monkeys throw crap at each other and masturbate in public, but it would be stupid for a human to mimick this behavior, too.

[themeecer]

I'm curious fu-pow .. what training have you had in ground fighting?

[KC Elbows]

Thank you Judge's Pen, I consider laughter the greatest compliment. I learned that in the shower at gym class.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by themeecer

Watch it there Brad. You can argue, rib, insult me if you like and it makes you feel like a bigger man, but that comment is down a road that needn't be taken.

I'll go down it right now. If your post was, as it claimed to be, a representation of your teacher's views on groundfighting he is an idiot that knows nothing about fighting on the ground. Period.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by themeecer
I'm curious fu-pow .. what training have you had in ground fighting?

None. I try not to take it to the ground if I can. Actually, one of the overriding prinicples in CMA is to stay on your feet.

I have taken a 16 hour Chi Na seminar from my old Hung Ga Sifu but never specifically ground fighting.

You got me there Golden Alligator maybe your testicle bites of death would work? Who knows?

Hell, I'd even try it standing up, why punch or kick when you can just bite someone in the ballzak?

[Serpent]

Agreed, though if meecer is telling the truth, his idiotic views are being backed up by a fairly high ranking Shaolin-Do instructor... so if I were you guys, I'd be a little worried


This is why the thread was entitled SD techs not themeecer techs. meecer is a black belt in SD and an instructor and he maintains that his teacher, a SD Master, also advocates this advice. On the Mullins board it was being "taught" as valid technique.

meecer, I was happy to leave names out of this. You chose to step into the light.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Serpent
meecer, I was happy to leave names out of this. You chose to step into the light.

Pull the other one.

You specified where it was posted and therefore knew that people would go and see who said it.

Nice attempt, but it don't float. We all know that you got an agenda with SD and themeecer especially.
So drop the "I am so holy routine" we ain't buying it.
themeecer came here and said that it was him and I give him credit for that.

IMHO, if you have a problem with what he said YOU should have replied on THEIR forum, rather than bring the issue up over here trying to make yourself look superior where YOU knew that you would get more support than on the other forum.

I say it as I see it, don't like it? Tough luck.

[KC Elbows]

I don't think support is the crux of the matter here. I think it's somewhat unrealistic to expect a forum devoted to a particular school to foster direct criticism of techniques of that school, criticisms that aren't based in the idea that "all criticism is acceptable as long as it finds the school's techniques to be sound". The fact that Sd proponents didn't comment on the inefficiencies of said proposal, despite there being several I know of who are smart enough to know better, suggests that debate in that case is not possible there because of mutual respect issues/political considerations.

In fact, the main support of the comments here essentially changed the context and meaning of the comments themselves in order to agree with them.

By the same token, anyone that is willing to expose their ideas to others and hold debate that way will do fine in the long run, and probably not merely accept things on face value because that is what they're told.


On the flip side, more than a few people here just a few years back were proposing the same ideas as valid approaches to ground fighting, and some of them learned since then.

[Serpent]

Thanks KC - that's exactly why I posted it over here.

TaiJi Monkey - you really are a cock.



You specified where it was posted and therefore knew that people would go and see who said it.


Yeah, I stated my sources without providing any links or anything else. I deliberately tried to direct the discussion to the content, not the poster.



We all know that you got an agenda with SD and themeecer especially.
So drop the "I am so holy routine" we ain't buying it.


Yeah, I have an issue with them and I think the meecer is a complete tool. I've said as much before. But in this case I left all that aside in order to concentrate more on the reasons for those impressions. The fact that meecer chose to identify himself was up to him. And I don't give him any props for it - he thinks he's great and repeatedly spouts his opinions here that are usually in contradiction to the large majority, about SD and just about everything else.



IMHO, if you have a problem with what he said YOU should have replied on THEIR forum, rather than bring the issue up over here trying to make yourself look superior where YOU knew that you would get more support than on the other forum.


Read KC's post again, imbecile.



I say it as I see it, don't like it? Tough luck.


Looks like you have more agenda here than me.

Once again - I'm trying to draw attention to things that are being taught by SD black belts and their Masters, in an effort to discuss the content of the teachings. I'm deliberately trying to stay away from anything personal so that we can look at SD with purely analytical eyes.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

KCE.

Good post.

Actually, if you read the thread over there you would have seen the same pro- and con- arguments that happened here a few years ago. ;)

Serpent quoted out of context and to be honest I think themeecer somewhat misunderstood what his teacher meant and thus the posts he made.

I see SD as a fairly closed community that until recently was not open to much outside influences and opinions, nothing bad in itself in that if that is what they want.

Said that I still think that the points I made about Serpent starting the thead here are still valid.

[KC Elbows]

Serpent's passionate about certain things, I can respect that, I am the same way, though not about the same topics necessarily.

As far as themeecer, I cannot assume he just misunderstood his teacher, because the only information I have about his teacher to judge from is him. I can't draw any conclusions about his teacher's position that are counter to his, though any conclusions I draw would be pretty limited due to a lcak of sources. However, to assume a higher level of understanding on his teacher's part based off of no information is something I don't tend toward, simply because I believe too many martial arts expect you to view teachers as beyond their actual capacities.

A minor point, I know, but nonetheless, an excuse for me to practice my typing.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Serpent

TaiJi Monkey - you really are a cock.

Read KC's post again, imbecile.



Yes, I can see how misdirected my posts where, when you need to resort to name calling.

Admit it already you got something up your arse about SD and are looking for any chance to proof them wrong and show everybody how wrong they are.

Sd ain't doing anything that hundreds if not thousands other schools are also doing and teaching.

But I can only see more name-calling and insults coming from you, very mature and good debating skills there.

Seen the likes of you on many boards and usually they get the boot fairly quickly.

On one board they recently removed all the non-MA post-counts and the guy with the highest count ended up with a very low post-count. ;)

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

KCE.

No problem with what you said and I kinda agree.

Unfortunately NOBODY asked themeecer to clarify what he exactly meant and under which context he was taught that.
People simply went onto the offensive and attacked the messenger.

Imagine I go onto the IMA forum and start talking that we need to develop Dang Jing (Crotch force) without explaining what I mean, I would get stoned there too and I am an IMA guy.

My point still stands that serpent wanted to stand SD and themeecer up and was NOT interesting in discussing what was said or similar.

[KC Elbows]

Heated online debate and self abuse to internet porn are commodities that need to be carefully balanced in order to come to online harmony. Too far toward one direction and you find yourself sleeping with midgets in front of a steady cam, too far the other way and you're calling in late night AM radio complaining about government weather control. Choose the center path: sleeping with midgets on the radio. Because momma can't recognize your moans.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
Yes, I can see how misdirected my posts where, when you need to resort to name calling.

I call it like I see it. Don't like it, tough luck. Hmmm... where have I heard that before?


Admit it already you got something up your arse about SD

You wanna rephrase that please! :eek:


and are looking for any chance to proof them wrong and show everybody how wrong they are.

Not at all. Everybody accused me and others of having a personal agenda against SD and not looking at their actual techs and the validity of their style for fighting. So I addressed that here.


Sd ain't doing anything that hundreds if not thousands other schools are also doing and teaching.

Quite right. And myself among many others like to pick that up too. It's just that right now there's SD practitioners across these boards like fleas on a stray dog, so they're flavour of the moment.


But I can only see more name-calling and insults coming from you, very mature and good debating skills there.

Don't be like Chris M and start to look at the debate rather than the content. Name calling or otherswise, the points are still valid and/or worthy of addressing.


Seen the likes of you on many boards and usually they get the boot fairly quickly.

Yeah, I'm sure I won't last a minute. I've only been here longer than just about every other person currently posting.


On one board they recently removed all the non-MA post-counts and the guy with the highest count ended up with a very low post-count. ;)
Yeah, as if anybody would have the time to do that. Oh wait, maybe you do?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
My point still stands that serpent wanted to stand SD and themeecer up and was NOT interesting in discussing what was said or similar.

Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But you're wrong. I tried very hard to only address the technique.

[FatherDog]

A note on insults in debates:

If Person A says "The world, sir, is flat, as should be quite obvious. I can demonstrate how quite handily; simply look around you. Do you see a curve?"

And Person B "Look, you stupid ****ing windowlicker, the world is round. Look at the god**** horizon; the reason you can't see forever is because of the earth's curvature. Retard."

Guess what; PERSON B IS RIGHT.

So let's knock off this retarded notion that someone being insulting automatically makes their argument weak.

[KC Elbows]

tai ji monkey,

I understand where you're coming from. At the same time, some arguments I think need to happen, for reasons both sides are privy to, and both sides will seek those arguments despite what anyone else does. Serpent takes the offensive here, themeecer has taken the offensive on mullin's forum, it seems that they are in agreement in wishing to conduct this argument. To choose one to defend is pointless, because you can only act as a shield for one while they go on the offensive.

That's my opinion of course.

I am frankly glad that the SD members are involved in a larger martial arts community than just their own schools. Closed schools have some bad side effects, ime.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

KCE.

My opinion being.

If you want to discuss a technique do so, regardless of where it came from or who proposed it.
I am sure that this teaching is NOT unique to SD alone.

Thus I take objection to the title thread and the way that the thread was started.
Especially given the history of SD on here and the arguments that happened between serpent and themeecer.

I am neither pro- nor con-SD, but the continous X vs Y arguments are getting old and very boring.

Like many here I would like to see more MA-related threads regardless of style or lineage.

So I would say lets discuss the validy of biting an opponent and list all the possible pro and con points, without involving any styles, lineages or other non-essential references.

[jon]

Matrix Fu.

When will people just accept the fact that some people will be more skilled in other areas. It should be a given that if you dont practice in a particular area you should just shut the hell up when it comes to talking about it.
The idea that you can beat a skilled groundfighter (or even someone with basic knowledge) by simply biting them is an obvious flaw in basic commen sence. How on earth are you ever going to get into a postion to bite anything when there going to be controlling you like a child anyway? Say you do manage to get in a postion to sink a bite, they will also probarly have the knowledge and skill to readjust and avoid it happening again.

Why cant some people just accept that if they do end up on the ground vs a skilled grappler they are going to be in a world of trouble?
Why do some people need to always have to look for some kind of magic pill solution?
Why wont some consider that if someone was a specialist in the ground game they would probarly be pretty aware of what is and is not possible down there?

[joedoe]

when Laughing Cow and Serpent, two allies in the US-bashing threads, are now divided over Shaolin-Do. :D

In all seriousness, I think Serpent did have all the right intentions when he posted this thread. And in all fairness, he did make it clear he did not want to discuss the lineage questions about SD but rather the techniques and fighting philosophy. themeecer chose to reveal who the quoted poster was.

It is not unusual for people to post thread on KFO that relate to discussions on other forums. In fact it happens fairly regularly. Personally, I think Serpent has done nothing wrong and infact I thought it was a very good topic.

[themeecer]

Dang, there really isn't anything here for me to say. Honestly after fatherdog's comments I reasoned that I wouldn't be able to say anything constructive in this thread anyway. (Open myself up for a flame there, but oh well. The ones that aren't trying to down me every moment will know what I meant there) Anyway, carry on.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Joedoe.

I am just tired of the ongoing prosecution of SD and it's members here.
As for serpent he can be fun and sometimes he has good things to say. ;)
OTOH, I don't think that themeecer or his opinions speak for all the SD community.

Having read a few threads over on their board(yup, a member there) it looks like there are some splits and different opinions within the SD community.

Not surprising at all, look at the divisions in any style and their arguments.

I guess I will now crawl back to the IMA forum and continue in our endless debates. :D

[joedoe]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
Joedoe.

I am just tired of the ongoing prosecution of SD and it's members here.
As for serpent he can be fun and sometimes he has good things to say. ;)
OTOH, I don't think that themeecer or his opinions speak for all the SD community.

Having read a few threads over on their board(yup, a member there) it looks like there are some splits and different opinions within the SD community.

Not surprising at all, look at the divisions in any style and their arguments.

I guess I will now crawl back to the IMA forum and continue in our endless debates. :D

LC, I understand and for a long time I got tired of it too. In the end however, I realised that without SD bashing, this forum was too quiet :D

A few months back this forum was very quiet. Why? All the SD threads had died a natural death. Then a bunch of SD practitioners jumped on and fired up all the old arguments again. So in a way they made the rod for their own back.

Personally, it doesn't bother me. SD does not affect me that much, and in a way it is entertaining to see watch the discussion go back and forth and often recycle. In a way it is a microcosm of the circle of life :)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe
when Laughing Cow and Serpent, two allies in the US-bashing threads, are now divided over Shaolin-Do. :D


I could probably agree with some of the things Saddam Hussein would say, but that doesn't mean I'm his ally! ;) :D



In all seriousness, I think Serpent did have all the right intentions when he posted this thread. And in all fairness, he did make it clear he did not want to discuss the lineage questions about SD but rather the techniques and fighting philosophy. themeecer chose to reveal who the quoted poster was.

It is not unusual for people to post thread on KFO that relate to discussions on other forums. In fact it happens fairly regularly. Personally, I think Serpent has done nothing wrong and infact I thought it was a very good topic. [/B]

Thanks Joe. I really did try to post this as a genuine KF related post with the best of intentions. If I'd found it on another board I would have done exactly the same thing!

Sometimes ya just can't win.

[themeecer]

Ok ... T'ai Ji Monkey = Laughing Cow? I'm confused. Dang it ... don't tell me that he dogs the US ... I was really getting to like him. Oh well, I'll just not discuss those matters with him and I can still like him. :D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by themeecer
Dang, there really isn't anything here for me to say. Honestly after fatherdog's comments I reasoned that I wouldn't be able to say anything constructive in this thread anyway. (Open myself up for a flame there, but oh well. The ones that aren't trying to down me every moment will know what I meant there) Anyway, carry on.

So does that mean that you realise that your advice and that of your teacher is without merit outside of the most extreme, low percentage of situations? Or are you just not prepared to defend your viewpoint any longer?

[themeecer]

No just saying .. what's the use? You are going to believe what you believe and I'm going to believe what I believe, period.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by themeecer
Ok ... T'ai Ji Monkey = Laughing Cow? I'm confused. Dang it ... don't tell me that he dogs the US ... I was really getting to like him. Oh well, I'll just not discuss those matters with him and I can still like him. :D

Nahh, I am just anti-US goverment and it's policies, capitalism and a few other things.
:D

Don't have a problem with the US-citizens, heck, one of my country-man made it BIIIG over there.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
Nahh, I am just anti-US goverment and it's policies, capitalism and a few other things.
Yikes!!! I am pro all those things. Guess we won't be having any discussions on that then. Hehe

Thanks for the links by the way.

[trilobite]

(off topic)

I'm with you Monkey. Our government blows and our officials are retarded. The original foundation of the country wasn't too bad, (though George Washington was a drunken, wife-beating, slave owner/Freemason.) :) :) :)

[themeecer]

Now dang it trilo .... you are attempting to stir up exactly what I didn't want stirred up. Grrr I'll be looking for you at the Mullin's tournament. Hehe

[trilobite]

<__<

>__>

:eek: :eek: :eek: NO!:eek: :eek: :eek:


<__<

>__>

AHHHHH DON'T HURT ME!

[themeecer]

Hehe .. what the heck was that?!?!?

[trilobite]

>__>

<__<


:eek: :eek: :eek: I DON'T KNOW:eek: :eek: :eek:


>__>

<__<

AHHHHH DON'T HURT ME

[themeecer]

Whatever it was it was scary.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by themeecer
No just saying .. what's the use? You are going to believe what you believe and I'm going to believe what I believe, period.

Yeah, but you're wrong.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by trilobite
(off topic)

I'm with you Monkey. Our government blows and our officials are retarded. The original foundation of the country wasn't too bad, (though George Washington was a drunken, wife-beating, slave owner/Freemason.) :) :) :)

Wow, if there's one way to derail a thread, it's to make it a Yank basher!

If this carries on I'm going to be agreeing with trilo AND TaiJi Monkey. What a funny old world.

Still vehemently opposed to themeecer though, of course.

:)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by trilobite
<__<

>__>

:eek: :eek: :eek: NO!:eek: :eek: :eek:


<__<

>__>

AHHHHH DON'T HURT ME!

Don't be scared of themeecer. Just take him to the ground and ram a sock in his mouth and he'll be both defenceless and unable to harm you.

;)

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Ok, I checked a few of the SD TJQ clips.

Very interesting I must say.

I am refusing to give an opinion as the clips were short and I don't know of the skill level of the people doing the forms and I am not versed in some of the forms/styles being shown.

Naturally I can only judge against my personal experience and based on the styles I studied, which might not be accurate.

[themeecer]

Actually I'll use my alligator biting technique. That comment earlier was probably meant to be derogatory, but I like it ... I think I am going to change my title to it. :D

[themeecer]

I can't post too much here taiji or at least anything I found negative. Not good business to put down any other SD practitioners or schools, which I have learned from experience. Not that I am saying there is much to put down. You are right, the clips are very short. The only tai chi I know from that site is the yang tai chi and the tai chi sword. The yang tai chi clip wasn't long enough to really show anything. The gal showed pretty good balance, not utterly rock solid but not many of us are. (Including me) The tai chi sword clip I won't comment on, but once again not a very good part of the form.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by themeecer
The tai chi sword clip I won't comment on, but once again not a very good part of the form.

Well, you obviously don't think it's any good then. You can critique it politely can't you?

[themeecer]

Umm .. well honestly, it isn't a very exciting part of the form. Nor is it very indicitive of the other parts.

Did I avoid that enough?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Serpent


On the Mullins board it was being "taught" as valid technique.



It wasn't being "taught" on the Mullins borad. Themecer said it would work. Ralphie said he was a fool and I said if it was available then use it, but don't rely on it as a good ground fighter would give you that opportunity. It was a discussion, nothing more.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
I don't think support is the crux of the matter here. I think it's somewhat unrealistic to expect a forum devoted to a particular school to foster direct criticism of techniques of that school, criticisms that aren't based in the idea that "all criticism is acceptable as long as it finds the school's techniques to be sound". The fact that Sd proponents didn't comment on the inefficiencies of said proposal, despite there being several I know of who are smart enough to know better, suggests that debate in that case is not possible there because of mutual respect issues/political considerations.

In fact, the main support of the comments here essentially changed the context and meaning of the comments themselves in order to agree with them.

By the same token, anyone that is willing to expose their ideas to others and hold debate that way will do fine in the long run, and probably not merely accept things on face value because that is what they're told.


On the flip side, more than a few people here just a few years back were proposing the same ideas as valid approaches to ground fighting, and some of them learned since then.

I said the same thing here as I did there: Biting and gouging might work if the oppourtunity is there, but you should not rely on it as your only defense to a ground game. I just defended themecer more here as I felt like he was being singled out.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by themeecer
Umm .. well honestly, it isn't a very exciting part of the form. Nor is it very indicitive of the other parts.

Did I avoid that enough?

Yes. ;)

[Shaolin-Do]

So what are we arguing about now?

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


I said the same thing here as I did there: Biting and gouging might work if the oppourtunity is there, but you should not rely on it as your only defense to a ground game. I just defended themeecer more here as I felt like he was being singled out.

I guess that's an accurate portrayal. I just think that debating with other members of a chain of schools is a headache rarely worth the effort simply because of politics. It's much easier to debate with those you don't have things you must agree with, imo. It's like students only sparring their classmates: inbreeding leads to stagnation of ability/ideas.

As an aside, thus far, this thread has taught me that some branches of SD have an oral tradition.

I must apologize for that last statement. Truly, it was uncalled for. I am a worse man for it.

Forgive me.

[Mr Punch]

KC is hilarious.

Fatherdog is hilarious has jumped right in on the correct with both feet (in his mouth - hopefully not to be bitten off) and is treating its desperately flailing teeth to a kerb-stomping in a typically direct manner.

Themeecer is hilarious, the incorrect having taken him, swept him, pinned him, stripped him ugly-white-naked, bitten off his nutsack, taken it to a corner to be chewed and further worried until it's even smaller. As usual.

Judge Penn is diplomatic, in the same way as trying to bite out somebody's artery whilst studiously NOT using any of your more useful weapons, including the bloodied bone-stump of your broken arm... is diplomatic. New meaning: diplomatic = incorrect, or at least such low percentage as to be ludicrous. Unless of course, one of KC's least trained midgets is attacking you mini-turkey-waving-naked with the famous 901st groundfighting form of Shaolin-do (the Golden Balls Presented to Big Sharpened Gnashing Teeth set).

Serpent is correct for a change, in his presentation of a crock unto the hallowed boards of KFO.

Red Shadow Laughing Monkey is plain old multifarious.

Did I miss anyone?

Nice to see nothing's changed... :rolleyes:

[themeecer]

And Mat is still his obnoxious self. (I edited what I really wanted to say. :) )

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


It wasn't being "taught" on the Mullins borad. Themecer said it would work. Ralphie said he was a fool and I said if it was available then use it, but don't rely on it as a good ground fighter would give you that opportunity. It was a discussion, nothing more.

Not true. The question was asked about what to do with a grappler. meecer said, "I would do this" and he is recognised there as a black belt with students. That makes him a teacher of sorts to all SD. When challenged on it he said that his Master taught this method also. So while it wasn't a lesson as such it was being "taught" (notice the use of quotes!)

Pen, your diplomacy and lawyer like avoidance is infuriating. Your ass must be full of splinters from the amount of time you spend on the fence. ;)

[Bluesman]

When I saw that you started this thread, I knew what you were doing and that is why I replied in the maner that I did. I am glad that others can see through you as well.
Instead of using this forum in a positive manner, we will just go back and forth. It is as if we are playing Tic-Tac-Toe, no one can win, we just start over and play the same game untill one of us doesn't want to play anymore.
I think many of us waste too much bandwidth on bickering. Everyone else just drops by to laugh at us.

The post below was directed to serpent by someone else who shares the same feelings about this thread as I do.



Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey


You specified where it was posted and therefore knew that people would go and see who said it.

Nice attempt, but it don't float. We all know that you got an agenda with SD and themeecer especially.
So drop the "I am so holy routine" we ain't buying it.
themeecer came here and said that it was him and I give him credit for that.

IMHO, if you have a problem with what he said YOU should have replied on THEIR forum, rather than bring the issue up over here trying to make yourself look superior where YOU knew that you would get more support than on the other forum.

I say it as I see it, don't like it? Tough luck. [/B]

He will not reply on that forum as he would have to give his real e-mail address rather than the Hotmail or Yahoo. But I actually agree with serpent as to his point of relying on biting.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Serpent


Not true. The question was asked about what to do with a grappler. meecer said, "I would do this" and he is recognised there as a black belt with students. That makes him a teacher of sorts to all SD. When challenged on it he said that his Master taught this method also. So while it wasn't a lesson as such it was being "taught" (notice the use of quotes!)

Pen, your diplomacy and lawyer like avoidance is infuriating. Your ass must be full of splinters from the amount of time you spend on the fence. ;)

Hey thanks Serpent. In another post you said I was open minded and considered everyone's posts. I was worrying about you, but I see you're back to form now. ;)

Just becasue a black belt teacher and his master advocate a technique doesn't mean it is taught by all SD teachers and Masters. We can disagree amongst ourselves you know.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Did I miss anyone?"

:mad:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Bluesman
I think many of us waste too much bandwidth on bickering. Everyone else just drops by to laugh at us.


To laugh at you guys? Absolutely.

;)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Hey thanks Serpent. In another post you said I was open minded and considered everyone's posts. I was worrying about you, but I see you're back to form now. ;)


Heh. ;)



Just becasue a black belt teacher and his master advocate a technique doesn't mean it is taught by all SD teachers and Masters. We can disagree amongst ourselves you know.

I understand this, but it's on the main SD message board. Imagine new students coming in and reading that stuff. They'd say, "Well, this black belt said it and he was taught that technique by a Master!"

That makes it canon in SD, at least to some degree. The fact that anyone holds that view is just a joke, let alone those at such a supposedly high level.

Anyway, it's becoming a moot point. I'm very pleased to see that even a lot of SD people don't agree with it!

[trilobite]

Serpent, I doubt anyone under the age of 12 would think that.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by trilobite
Serpent, I doubt anyone under the age of 12 would think that.

Then you'd be very much mistaken. People, even seemingly sensible grown ups, will believe stuff they read about a subject on which they have no prior knowledge.

It's easy for you to say that it's hogwash as you have some exposure to the subject in general, even if not its specifics. Joe Bloggs that's just seen Kill Bill and decides to do some martial arts classes is gonna get himself killed pretty quickly because he'll believe sh!t like that. And why shouldn't he when the only true and pure Shaolin way purports it to be the truth, as evidenced by black belts and Masters? :rolleyes: