Got short power?

[Ray Pina]

Curious as to how many styles here train it as part of a core requirement.

E-Chuan focuses on power from contact, being able to generate a strike if the palm is already resting on the target. We have a few ways of training this. At first it's finding the mechanics to do it utilizing a domino affect from the upper back/shoulder down the elbow and finally into the palm. Later the whole body, and some internal dynamics with the rib cage area go into it.

[Oso]

yep

we start with bigger motions/circles
swinging arm exercises utilizing waist movement to propel the arms
this is refined into actual striking movements and the movement gets smaller and smaller over time.

[Water Dragon]

Yup. It's a 'trademark' of our school.

[norther practitioner]

Yup. It's a 'trademark' of our school. Yeah, but you're hitting with the ground...lol

taiji seems to have a lot of this, but so far I've only used it to really open up some space.

[Ray Pina]

Big to small;) ... as in most things MA.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Yeah, but you're hitting with the ground...lol

taiji seems to have a lot of this, but so far I've only used it to really open up some space.

Well yeah, but I gotta GET the throw first don't I ;)

[norther practitioner]

True...:D

In longfist also, our twist and strike, when in close, feals a lot like what you describe.... not quite the same, but still using the whole body, especially your core strength.

[Chang Style Novice]

Oh, some. I have the idea that this stuff works better, generally, for people with short limbs, and I'm a lanky SOB.

[Oso]

CSN, your short range/power strike is just longer than a shorter persons short range/power strike. Doesn't mean it isn't a short range/power strike or effective as such.

[David Jamieson]

short and long power are not about range

they are direct references to force applied over "time"

short power > power lasting for a short time

long power > power lasting for a long time

ranges, distances et al are a different thing.
1 step close , 1.5 step medium, 2 steps long 3 steps out of range time to close gap, make bridge and cross.

pretty simple stuff really.

root is key, stance is key to grounding. Physics dictates a lot of the principles of power generation and force.

actually a lot more simple when looked at with realism.
No mystical whodo voodoo about using force at all.

cheers

[Ray Pina]

Another way to understand its use is like this:

This of the arc your elbow travels when throwing an uppercut. The longer your elbow travels along that imaginary circle the more momentum it generates and power.

Try to shorten its path to were the elbow only has to mobe from the 6:00 o'clock position to the 7:00 o'clock position and get the momentum and weight from somewhere else.

I can rest my palm on an object and move the elbow from 6:00 to 6:30 without raising the palm from the object and still deliever a blow that will hurt. Good for the chin, neck, soft ribs, even the biceps when crossing arms and the chance to go all the way in hasn't presented itself. Good for ground figthing as well.

[crumble]

Sigh... Still laying the foundation.

Thanks for the description E-Fist. Any more details on how you train it? The stuff we're doing seems to be more rooted in the lower back and mid spine, but I'm still a relative newbie (2ys).

-crumble

[Merryprankster]

The longer your elbow travels along that imaginary circle the more momentum it generates and power.

This is completely unlike any uppercut I've ever heard of.

[David Jamieson]

:rolleyes:

force is force, no matter how you want to present it.

MxA=F (mass times acceleration equals force)

speed applied to mass creates force.

You can increase mass, you can increase speed. generally, you can't make your hands much bigger than they are, but you can use proper alignment and practice to increase the speed they travel and the force that is issued.

Strength development will allow you to issue long power that will in turn have more compression force applied to the object it is pushing.

cheers

[Golden Arms]

This is completely similar to the uppercut we use however. To each their own..I think that uppercut you know maybe different than the one we do MP because of possible differences in the way footwork is used between western boxing and some CMA. Possible?

[Merryprankster]

Ummm..

You throw an uppercut allowing the elbow to travel a long arc?

[Ray Pina]

Actually all my punchign is based on that arc: uppercut, straight, hook, overhand. We believe that mosition -- the same one used in hammering, pushing the poles in cross country skiing, pulling the rope on a lawn mawer, is more powerful than bicep/tricep punching. That is the power base and the hand can be turned over as needed. If you have a bridge, the elbow can control and press down, then dig in along that arc.

Again, how we train this is kind of privy to school brothers ... but, uh, remember that game where you rest some quarters on your elbow .... that arc, that circle can travel up, like an uppercut, or down, like when hammering. When you train it, the elbow can travel that curv for power but the fist can go straight -- I know, it looks like WC sun/moom punching -- but it can also start straight and curve out to biceps, or start to look like an uppercut and change to hook or over hand. I know boxers do the same thing. But again, it's not what you do but how. I haven't seen boxers incorporate this type of short power YET! I already see them picking up their elbows to cover the sides of their heads when coming in against the hook though. Technology is contagious.

[Ray Pina]

Just saw your last post.

No, the whole point is its a very short arc. To explain it thought I use a circle. Think of a hammer in your hand and run the elbow along the full range of motion. I keep my hands up when banging. My fist are guaring my head, elbows down at 6:00. When striking an incoming blow from a relative distance, I'll go all out 6: 00 to 8:00. But after bridging, getting that hand it, short power is used so as not to draw back the hand.

This is very hard to explain over the internet. And lots of times I explain things and either A) people don't believe me, or B) say they have it too. So I kind of don't care anymore. I enjoy to come here and poke around. Sometimes someone posts a good article like that Darren Laur guy.

I know it works for me, and I've played with Hung Gar, Wing Chun, S. Mantis, multiple karate, TKD, Judo and TKD guys in NYC, arguably one of the largest cities in the US containing one or the largest and greatest selections of MA. I haven't seen this ever before, thus the two hour drive to Chinatown twice a week ... it be a lot easier to train at one of the Japanese or Korean schools up the block, or even my old Kung Fu place two towns away. There's a reason.

[Merryprankster]

Sigh. Boxers don't arm punch.

Nevermind. I'm done here. I'm going to get into a pointless argument that ends with "Just come see it/feel it. You'll understand what I'm talking about. It's unique! It's special!"

I'm reminded of the conversation I once had regarding "spine compression" power generation. I said "gee, that sounds like when wrestlers do a snap over. Same movement, different use." I was told by several that it couldn't POSSIBLY be the same. It was special! It was unique! They posted clips. It's exactly the same. Then Oso confirmed it for me.

Boxers have been raising their elbow like that for years. But shouldn't. It's a bad habit. Body shot city when they feint and then throw to the ribs. But whatever.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

I'm reminded of the conversation I once had regarding "spine compression" power generation. I said "gee, that sounds like when wrestlers do a snap over. Same movement, different use." I was told by several that it couldn't POSSIBLY be the same. It was special! It was unique! They posted clips. It's exactly the same. Then Oso confirmed it for me.


Uh, excuse me?

[ShaolinTiger00]

This is true:

Physics dictates a lot of the principles of power generation and force.

actually a lot more simple when looked at with realism.
No mystical whodo voodoo about using force at all.



This is false.

ranges, distances et al are a different thing.
1 step close , 1.5 step medium, 2 steps long 3 steps out of range time to close gap, make bridge and cross.


STOP THE MYTH!

"range" doesn't exist in these fantasy increments!! Stop saying there is a difference in the insignificant distance between a kick and a punch or a jab and an uppercut because it's all completely and utterly crap! Anyone who knows anything about actual fighting knows this. (Which is also an indication as to the credibility of the sources that spew this ****.)

You are either in

1. a free motion phase
2. a standing clinch
3. on the ground

that's it! It's that simple!

When you're able to move freely (meaning he or you haven't grabbed each other yet, and rest assured that it will happen due to forward pressure *contrary to point sparring naysayers..*)
With each person able to move, these "ranges" do not exist. either you're hitting or you're not. you're avoiding or your not. it takes a fraction of a second to span the gap between these mystical ranges...

MP is dead on about the uppercut. James, you have to see some of these dreadful wide stanced, arcing "uppercut" punches found in kung fu to appreciate their absurdity..

oh here's one. (http://www.wutancanada.com/martialartsgala/dave3.jpg)

another (more upright but still goofy) (http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:khQL7nAQD9MC:w3.blackbeltmag.com/bbkids/yourage/kong/kong1.jpg)

guy on the right (http://www.hkfilmweb.de/features/kungfu/hunggar.gif)

Of course they'll now say I'm wrong and how ridiculous those pics are, but remember kids. I've been there. I've done this. I know for a fact how rancid cma is with these foolish techniques..

[ShaolinTiger00]

Sigh. Boxers don't arm punch.

but kung fu guys do!!!

and sure they'll tell you that their root is incredible but the truth is is so spread out and unaligned, not to mention poor for mobility, that it makes practical use of it pointless..

But what do I know... :rolleyes:

*can do jow ga and northern shaolin forms in my sleep*

[Ray Pina]

MP. I hear what you're saying.

All I'm saying is that I'm giving you an example of the path the elbow travels. It travels along the arc, and keeping in topic of short power, you try to decrease the travel lenght while mainting speed and power. As for how it looks in conjunction to what you are seeing in your mind, I can't say.

As for special and inque, I didn't use those words. But I do say I haven't seen this type of technique (not this topic, E-chuan in general) until I was beaten by one of my master's students.

I know that means little to anyone here and I personally don't care. I have a pretty good amount of MA experience and have studied some of the more popular styles as well as a few more underground methods, and I've studied them with top name people.

I've found something that works really well for me. And it sounds like you have found something that works reallt well for you, I can tell by your posts you are a dedicated martial artist. At the very least I agree with your aproach to training and testing though our methods differ.

Not much more to say. And when I offer for folks to come pay a visit in NYC I don't do it with a chip on my shoulder. I do it out of general hospitality. I've had a few guys come out to stay a long weekend in New York and see some stuff they couldn't from there homes. We spar, we enjoy the opportunity, then get a bite to eat. Maybe a bruise or two but no malice ever. I try not to play with guys like that because it always leads to problems. I save that for the ring.

Best in your training
Ray Pina

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

I'm reminded of the conversation I once had regarding "spine compression" power generation. I said "gee, that sounds like when wrestlers do a snap over. Same movement, different use." . . . They posted clips. It's exactly the same. Then Oso confirmed it for me.


Me want to see... me want to see...

So, is this clip still on the web somewhere?

wm

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
This is true:



You are either in

1. a free motion phase
2. a standing clinch
3. on the ground

that's it! It's that simple!



Nope. It's even more simple than that.

Range 1 Not Fighting
Range 2 Fighting

Or to make it even more simple (and quote Monkeyslap)

Range 1. Hey! You're standing in my spot!

[David Jamieson]

st00

stand 1 step away from someone. you can touch them, move back a half step, you can still touch, 2 steps you gotta reach, 3 steps back you're out of range, nothing false about it at all man.

1.a free motion phase < what is this? moving around circling each other and throwing punches and kicks?

2. a standing clinch < grabby grabby, this is also called toe to toe

3. on the ground < :rolleyes: yeah, I forgot it always goes to the ground LOL.

You wrestle a lot don't you?
Dude, 1 1 1/2 and 2 step ranges have been used across several martial arts forms for years, including american boxing which is where i picked up teh idea of how to range myself.

Most peoples freeform fighting is just sloppy.

as for your pics, those are static pics from forms, big deal. empty and uselss? yes, they are static pics! again >:rolleyes:

uppercut and cannon fist are also 2 different punches. Cannon punch is like a piston, comes off the hip upper cut swings from the shoulder, both start at the ground.

anyway, I'm done here too before this thread goes the way of what mp says, it's special, it's unique. It's Bull to put that crap to straight up techs.

Wd, I like the simple "you are fighting/not fighting" :D that is a truth.

[Merryprankster]

WD,

you were kind enough to post clips as I recall. But I've been told more than once in other conversations that "spine compression" was unique, or "insert thing here." Strangely enough, there's been a 90% similar movement somewhere else....

Not you. You're a bit to eclectic and exposed to other things to buy into the "special and unique," crap.

This idea that we're all doing something really different has got to stop.

EF--my frustration wasn't exactly directed at you. Just one too many arguments on stuff like this.

[MonkeySlap Too]

"Special and unique."

Are there some special and unique things in some CMA?

Sure there are.

Does that mean you can't find anything like it anywhere else? No. But the meaning is probably different. I've seen some genuinely wierd and useful stuff in CMA that I have not found elsewhere. Is there maybe a similar movement? Sure. But is it's usage and training methods creating the same result? Often not.

When the idea of 'special and unique' is used to lull people into an insular approach to thier training, then it is a poison.

When it is used to understand the a priori principles of your school, and how that evolves into defining your training goals and fighting strategy, then it has a valid meaning.

Does it mean you are automatically better than anybody else?

No.

It is not just the movement ideas themself, but what they mean in combination and linked with your assumptions, goals, and strategies. And occasionally when that happens, unique things happen.

Then the rest of us who aren't so clever quickly adopt it if it is any good...


FYI - Most of the CMA people I've met found the Shuai Chiao 'blocking' (I don't use that idea) to be rather unique. Muay Thai guys don't as thier stuff is incredibally similar. No surprise, since the ideas behind the moves are similar...

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
WD,



Not you. You're a bit to eclectic and exposed to other things to buy into the "special and unique," crap.



OK, I thought youwere trying to throw me in with 'those guys' for a second. Simple misunderstanding :D

[Ray Pina]

I actually think the middle pic wasn't too bad if you tighten the whole thing up a bit. The first and last look too "kung fu" for me.

The range of motion in my uppercuts is very close to that if I was running or speed walking. The important point I wanted to make was to pay attention to the line the elbow travels. And in keeping with topic, that distance can be decreesed while maintaining power. Somewhere along the threed my words were misinterpreted to "a long arc" instead of along the arc. The circle is the natural one, like doing curcles, close to the body.

Good thing I'm happy with my technique and have a room full of trophies to stroke my ego. Otherwise I'd start to question myself when guys with a few years of MA training imply that I suck.;)

[Water Dragon]

I don't understand this whole arc thing. It sounds like arm punching. I was taught that on the uppercut, you want to be down a little first then push up with your legs and thrust your hip forward. The arm only moves forward about 10-12 inches (from your chin to 10-12 inches in front of your face. the elbow stays in tight to the ribs the whole time. The motion of the uppercut comes from the body rising and the pelvis moving forward. There's no 'arc' to the elbow. That would seperate the arm from the body.

The uppercut is my new favorite punch. I was making my mitt holder wince all night last night.

[Shaolin-Do]

Ah.... Boo. From the title of the thread I thought it was about midgets that kick ass.
:mad:

[Ray Pina]

(edit to see below instead)

[Ray Pina]

Just saw your post. That is an uppercut. The arc is not out. I keep the elbows down neer the ribs too. But turn yourself sideways in a mirror. Look at the plane your elbow travels. Of course it only travels a small section of what could be a large circle. I'm saying it can travel a smaller section. I'm saying I can be touching your chin already, and from their deliver a KO: Elbow moves from 5:30 to 5:00 position ... if facing you in a mirror, me on left.

PS

Uppercut is my favorite blow too. It's the most powerful punch. I think there's just a lot of miscommunication going on ... and ... of course ... all punching comes from the foot.

[Shaolin-Do]

Hmm... But the circle would distort on firing the punch depending on how close/far your opponent is. More of a funky oval.
:)

[Ray Pina]

No. There is only so far out you can send your elbow by manipulating your shoulder.

Also, in the Hsing-I book it says, fighting is like sucking a tit. We fight close, very close. I don't like to extend my arms because that leads to collapse. I'm almost punching myself in the chin it's so close.

This can break out into a side Hsing-I discussion. Tiger Hands/Head ... my favorite "technique". Everything I do comes from that movement. Sort of like a double uppercut pick up to guard myself (palms facing me) and then from there, from coverage, driving off the back leg, the forearms turn out to bite their way through. Hard to explain.

In regard to short power. On the internal forum Count had something nice to say about my teacher's short power -- and I apreciate it. He seen it. Very hard to explain. I know he has internal experience, and though our school may differ, a good eye is a good eye. Thank you.

[Shaolin-Do]

:confused:

[Mutant]

short power generation, or fa li (pinyin spelling?), is a core of the system taught by my sifu, mr. yu.

the principles are very similar to what kung lek described above.
not entirely sure what he meant to convey in describing the ranges though.

we were taught to generate the same explosive short power for short or longer range techniques, just the explosive 'twitch' occurs later when contacting the target. its like an accelleration curve, where you place the peak just before or on contact, or when you go for the uproot, whether its a long range cross, a short palm, a throw or chin na.

achieved by root, correct body alignment/form, timing/coordination and developed fast twitch response.
neat stuff, no magic, just physics. getting it all to work in sychc is the challenge.

[Mutant]

to elaborate on above, all together with proper breathing, mind and 'energy', mr. yu does call it 'internal'. but theres no mysticism involved the way he teaches and understands it. after all, he works as physicist when not teaching kung fu.

[Daredevil]

An entire thread about short power and no talk of Baji? What's this?

Training in Bajiquan aims at achieving and utilizing short power and the entire fighting strategy and the singular techniques demonstrate this clearly. Stance training and single moving punches (very short forms, ala Xingyi's 5 Elemental Fists) are the core of training.

Strikes are done with relaxed explosiveness, accelerating into the attack and initiating 'fa li' at the point of contact and not before as is typical. This is why Bajiquan is a close-in art, you stay close and I mean close, in almost body to body contact. The striking hands are not withdrawn or retracted once a strike is made, instead you just flow directly into another attack from wherever your hands happen to be at the time. The use of short power particularly makes this possible. It's not just hands though and shoulders, the body and especially the elbows are used widely.

Speaking of what's unique and what's not, I dare say this type of use of force is different from the way (for example) boxing (and most other combat arts for that matter ) does things. Correct me if I'm wrong, please. All good MA have relaxedness, whole-body-power, etc, but I haven't seen short power all over the block.

[Merryprankster]

Speaking of what's unique and what's not, I dare say this type of use of force is different from the way (for example) boxing (and most other combat arts for that matter ) does things. Correct me if I'm wrong, please. All good MA have relaxedness, whole-body-power, etc, but I haven't seen short power all over the block.

Any grappling style. Different purpose, but there it is.

Any good infighter in boxing/MT, etc.

[Lowlynobody]

I guess short power has nothing to do with the wrist? Its not like the wrist is the last joint through which most strikes are released or anything.

Most developed styles of fighting include many similar things, all be it done differently or used for a different purpose. Boxing uses stomping to generate power from the ground (eg a boxer circling and jabbing while stomping with lead foot), they use joints in alingment, and have similar theories on over-reaching etc to many arts.

Merry I'm interested in seeing a clip of a wrestler using compression, is there any about that you know of? Are you talking about rounding of the back/spine, pulling the tailbone in and pushing the pelvis forward?


LN.

[Merryprankster]

Yes. It's how you do a snap over double leg from double inside control.

[Merryprankster]

I spent a lot of time looking for a vid or pic series, but can't find it.

I like to be in a staggered stance for this.

Step 1. Have your training partner stand in front of you, in a square stance, just to make things easier for everybody.

Step 2. Training partner places both hands on your shoulders. This is just so everything is in the right position to really see and feel this movement.

Step 3. As the attacker, you get your hands on the inside of his arms. Make your hands like meat hooks around the back of his triceps near where the muscle insertion for the triceps near the shoulder is. Your forearms will be pressing/resting on his biceps.

Step 4. Give him a little snap down, hunching, bending over slightly as you do it.

Step 5. As soon as he responds, go for the snap over. The spine straightens out, your hips thrust forwards to get into a proper back straight leverage position. You may or may not take a step in as the situation warrants. As you are doing this, your arms whip upwards and towards you (and I do mean whip, like a beat boy), throwing his hands clear of his center. IMPORTANT!!! Do NOT leave your arms UP. As soon as his arms go up from your whipping motion, use the "crack of that whip" at the end to bring your hands underneath his arms. Otherwise you get extended and will take a quick trip to your back.

Step 6. Attack the double leg. His balance should have been thrown forwards and you should have been moving towards him a bit so they should be right there. Finish the take down.

The snap over is a set up. It can be used with one arm to set up a duck under or can be used to attack the body for a lock as well as the legs. You don't have to have him square, it's just easier to see.


But hey, wrestling's all muscle, remember? ;)

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by Lowlynobody


Most developed styles of fighting include many similar things, all be it done differently or used for a different purpose. Boxing uses stomping to generate power from the ground (eg a boxer circling and jabbing while stomping with lead foot), they use joints in alingment, and have similar theories on over-reaching etc to many arts.



Of course, this is digressing into a whole new discussion, but we'd (the Internet Warrior(tm) community) would have to agree what is different enough, ie. how much needs to be different for something to be, uhh, different. That looks like useless semantics, but it is very easy to take a position in nearly all instances that reduces everything to an essential sameness.

The trouble is that in diffrentiating one from another, people perceive you're reducing the other's value. Can't we just agree that some things are different (and I sure as hell don't claim any MA to be superior to another in all instances -- everything has its proper use), for instance the training methods used in Bajiquan and boxing are sufficiently different to be considered two things apart?

It's not a big deal, because ultimately I'm one of those reductionists too. Fighting is fighting. To paraphrase Bruce Lee (he had some good things to say): "learning a system of fighting is still learning a system and that system is not fighting."

I see systems as glorified training implements. You get various things from these systems and then you can carry that something over to fighting. That -- I think -- is the very essence of kung fu, whether acquired in training Bajiquan or boxing.

[Oso]

yet another testimony of uniqueness


Speaking of what's unique and what's not, I dare say this type of use of force is different from the way (for example) boxing (and most other combat arts for that matter ) does things.

DD, not trying to bash you personallly so please don't get offended.

But, this is an attitude that just needs to stop, most especially from the TCMA side. The only reason I see for CMA people to keep thinking this is that they are not out there mixing it up with people from other disciplines. I'm not talking about trying to do a mma/nhb event. But find some other peeps to work out with. And just don't go into one class but try and establish a relationship with martial artists (boxers, etc.) and train/spar/compare techniques & theories...whatever, long enought to get past whatever bias you may have. Granted, this is not easy as this attitude can be found more often then not amongst any style/group. Contrast/comparison with other ways can only improve your own way IF you are egoless enough to jump in.


Are you talking about rounding of the back/spine, pulling the tailbone in and pushing the pelvis forward?

nice description

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by Lowlynobody
I guess short power has nothing to do with the wrist? Its not like the wrist is the last joint through which most strikes are released or anything.



Speaking from the Bajiquan perspective, it has very little to do with the wrist in itself (except in the sense of maintaining the Six Harmonies - specifically, wrist coordinates with ankle).

The power comes from the body, though that's being a bit vague. You can use short power on a shoulder strike, an elbow strike or a fist (and other things, but using the arm and going through it for an example). That pretty much removes the necessity of any "wrist magic" to accomplish 'fa li'.

[Merryprankster]

for instance the training methods used in Bajiquan and boxing are sufficiently different to be considered two things apart?

True...BUT....


but it is very easy to take a position in nearly all instances that reduces everything to an essential sameness.

They ARE essentially the same. One head, two arms, two legs, one body. And that body must obey Kinesiological/physiological principles.

My favorite example is the throwing events in Track and Field. The glide step in shotput, the discus spin, the heel-toe spin of the hammer and the run-up of the javelin... but at the moment of release, THEY ARE IDENTICAL except for arm movement. Why? Because this is the only way to get the body to generate maximum power for throwing an impliment.

If I took a picture of them throwing, from their ankles to the top of their heads, eliminating the throwing arm only, you'd be hard-pressed to tell them apart...well, you might be able to get hammer. The lead arm stays extended on the release, to generate a proper flight path, where as it's bent, elbow pointing back in the other three to increase rotation speed LOL :D

The delivery system is slightly different, but at the moment of truth, the release--and release is EVERYTHING in the throwing events--they're the same.

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by Oso


DD, not trying to bash you personallly so please don't get offended.

But, this is an attitude that just needs to stop, most especially from the TCMA side. The only reason I see for CMA people to keep thinking this is that they are not out there mixing it up with people from other disciplines. I'm not talking about trying to do a mma/nhb event. But find some other peeps to work out with. And just don't go into one class but try and establish a relationship with martial artists (boxers, etc.) and train/spar/compare techniques & theories...whatever, long enought to get past whatever bias you may have. Granted, this is not easy as this attitude can be found more often then not amongst any style/group. Contrast/comparison with other ways can only improve your own way IF you are egoless enough to jump in.



Not offended at all.

I'm familiar with other methods of training and different arts, being a fan of both boxing and mixed martial arts. I count a fair share of boxers, muay thai guys and wrestlers as friends just as I do 'traditional' (now there's a loaded word) ones and I've exchanged ideas. I've also trained at length in a gym where I was exposed to mixed martial artists on a regular basis.

Yes, we're all doing the same thing. Fighting.

[Oso]

DD, just read over your other posts on this thread. I like and agree with what your saying.

semantics do matter.

I just spent 2 hours last night training with a karate guy ( not sure of his dan rank but he's the sensei of a school ) and the comparisons between our approaches to particular techniques were more the same vs. different. I've been training jujitsu under him for the last 7 months but last night was the first time the class was small enough for he and I to play. It was a blast.

[Daredevil]

Now that I've explained how I pretty much agree with y'all .. I'll reiterate the point which raised the contention, perhaps giving it a more easily digestible form:

I've yet to see a style that trains short power as exclusively as Baji does it and by the same methods of training.

I don't mean to say or imply that this is what makes the style greater than something else or anything, I mean exactly what I say. If you're looking for an art to train short power, this is one good example and the only one I've seen (Xingyi and Taiji perhaps not withstanding, but my understanding -- and ability -- on those two is as of yet premature to make a statement).

To demonstrate what I mean, let's try this. When you're taught a punch in (for example) boxing, I assume you're not told that you're to apply it from the point of contact? This is what is done in Baji. That is different. Now if I'm indeed wrong here, correct me again.

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by Oso

I just spent 2 hours last night training with a karate guy ( not sure of his dan rank but he's the sensei of a school ) and the comparisons between our approaches to particular techniques were more the same vs. different. I've been training jujitsu under him for the last 7 months but last night was the first time the class was small enough for he and I to play. It was a blast.

Maybe my point is that once we all agree that we're doing the same things and that there are huge similarities (ie. we get past the "boxers aren't relaxed, only Taiji hippies are relaxed!" crap), we can start to talk about the differences again. See my point?

[Oso]

Maybe my point is that once we all agree that we're doing the same things and that there are huge similarities (ie. we get past the "boxers aren't relaxed, only Taiji hippies are relaxed!" crap), we can start to talk about the differences again. See my point?

indeed. ego is the main hindrance to that imo.

[TAO YIN]

Yeah, ego is hard to overcome ((because not many martial artists could possibly fathom the idea of being wrong, unless their teacher or training partner or whoever, said so, or handed their arse to them, and still then it sometimes doesnt matter))....especially in something such as the mind of a martial artist. mainly because most people already know for sure; either because they won a couple of fights, got told so by someone they feared, or joined a club. but they still question whatever reality may be because they have never killed anyone straight up murder style (sarcasm)....Since it's halloween, take the time to go out and kill someone today, just to make sure "you" are full aware of something "working."

This thread is funny.....

It's like, yeah all styles do this short power, its basically the same thing across the line of martial arts....but at the same time (of course implied over the vast threads of discussion) arguements still go on (and always will and we must love it) about , kung fu (and ever other style that could possibly contain the audacity train forms) styles have no groundfighting whatsoever, but bjj, jj, and judo do....and they are the only ones that do.

there is nothing new under the sun,,,its all the same, yes all of it, in the end.

oh, I need to add some egotistical evidence here...short power works good for the bridge, clinch, feel, grap and trap, dududu, works good in the mount or guard,,,dudududud, works....pretty good....pretty good.


hahahahaha

happy halloween, have some opiumieeeea...it's on the house, seriously.

Michael Myers can type.

[scotty1]

what?

anyway...

different styles train using different methods, because their strategy emphasises different things.

the differences in method and results can be appreciated, noted and compared, but in a friendly open minded fashion that doesn't assume that one way of doing things will yield any better results than another way, or be found modified in a different system, without actually having checked it out.

I think that basically, I've just repeated what Daredevil said.

$hit.

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by TAO YIN
Yeah, ego is hard to overcome ((because not many martial artists could possibly fathom the idea of being wrong, unless their teacher or training partner or whoever, said so, or handed their arse to them, and still then it sometimes doesnt matter))....especially in something such as the mind of a martial artist. mainly because most people already know for sure; either because they won a couple of fights, got told so by someone they feared, or joined a club.


Luckily in this art we're practising, it's very easy to test your skills. Get out there and fight. You'll find out what works and what doesn't very fast.

Us internet warriors are a whole breed apart, of course. ;)

[Meat Shake]

Joe C. had short power, R.I.P., but then it burned out. Bless his little 3' tallness.

[Lowlynobody]

Heh, Tao Yin I think you got it in one. Funny thing is the first reaction from people is - what the hell is he talking about!? Nothing conception of your own perception. Its a disease and most people have it.

Merry my man you are actualy one of the reasons I came back to check out KFO after a few months of could not be bothered. You talk in circles of logic and reality and its a nice change. Thanks for the description and the effort in looking for some clips. I got your description fine and am completly amused by it due to the fact it described exactly a use of fau chum tun tou (the movement of the body) and the posture used in many southern fist styles (hum hung bart boy). Chum would be the sinking of the body over the arms through the use of elbow conectivity to the shoulder, not by lowering your legs so much but by straightening your spine out of its normal S looking shape. Fau would be the rise as you uncompress the spine/body, and open up his centre.

What sort of breathing method would you be using with this technique?


Oso - its a nice descrition because that is one way I punch with short power.....or part of the way.


Daredevil - I agreed with one of your posts down there somewhere :)

I agree that short power can be used on any strike including a kick. Thus I clarified my statement with the word "most" referring to those through the hands. Lazyness just makes my expression of thought bad tis all me thinks.

Have you checked out any southern hands? Short power is what they are all about. You might even turn that short power of yours into shock power.........hummm lets not get into that one ;)

As for Tao Yin he is certainly not an internet warrior knowing how much he goes about sparing with people from all different styles as I do.


I'm off to train.

LN.

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by Lowlynobody
As for Tao Yin he is certainly not an internet warrior knowing how much he goes about sparing with people from all different styles as I do.



Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply Tao Yin is an internet warrior. Just joking about the relatively absurdity of even discussing these very practical things on a forum ...

[David Jamieson]

Just joking about the relatively absurdity of even discussing these very practical things on a forum ...

That's what the forum is here for. :)

As for people discussing stuff across styles, I think that the information each of us has is limited in scope.

Most of us haven't tasted outside our style. Some of us have tasted a little.

To make a commentary that one style has more of this while another has less of that is egrigious at best. For the simple fact that each style differs tremendously in it's flavour from school to school never mind style to style.

THere are very few styles that claim the same name that are presented and taught in the same manner acrosse every branch of school.

The concepts of Chinese martial arts do travel across styles and systems. There really is nothing unique or special about any one given style.

A style is an empty shell that a person fits into. In and of itself it is nothing. BUt when a style is given life by a person, it becomes something.

So, getting back to short power. This is a concept in many martial arts and it is trained in all of them. Not necessarily calling itself "short power" some might call it percussive, some might call it sharp shocking, doesn't matter. It's the same idea.

Oh and as an aside, I think that ego is absolutely necessary. But one can have an overabundance of it, which is not such a good thing :p

CHEERS