What does it take to be a "Master" [Archive]

Judge Pen

10-23-2003, 11:07 AM

Are you a master if you have mastered a single technique?

Are you a master if you have mastered a single form and the techniques contained therein?

Are you a master if you have mastered several forms in a system?

Or are you a master when you have mastered a single system?

We talk about mastering a technique or mastering a form, but we don't call them masters. What is a master?

Starchaser107

10-23-2003, 11:13 AM

you are not ready yet young grasshopper. in time you will know what a master really is.

a master in my mind is someone who has reached a level of proficiency wherein he no longer needs to consult with anyone regarding his skills. a master is competent and adaptable, and understands the way things work from all angles, inside and out, and from other peoples perspective.

Fu-Pow

10-23-2003, 11:14 AM

There is no such thing as a "master" in Chinese kung fu.

"Mastery" implies an end.

There is always room for improvement and refinement.

There are Sifu's and students.

You are either a Sifu or a student.

A Sifu has been designated by his teacher to teach the system that he has learned.

A Sifu has a firm grasp of all fundamentals, theories, techniques, applications and usually oral history of the system.

However, he still has much room to grow and learn.

To say you are a Sifu does not mean that you are a finished product. Rather it means you know enough to start on the path of handing down the system to your own students.

Judge Pen

10-23-2003, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
There is no such thing as a "master" in Chinese kung fu.

"Mastery" implies an end.

There is always room for improvement and refinement.

Fu Pow, I think I agree with you in theory. :eek: BUT:

Even the styles that you train in has those they refer to as "Master." Have those individuals reached the point where there is no room for improvement or refinement?

MasterKiller

10-23-2003, 11:24 AM

Master is something other people call you out of respect.

No self-respecting CMA would call themself "master," or "grand-master." It's presumptuous.

Chang Style Novice

10-23-2003, 11:28 AM

"the point where there is no room for improvement or refinement?"

I don't believe there is such a point, personally. You might reach a point where you are effortlessly superior to most, easily superior to a few, and substantially superior to a tiny elite, but there would still be a few weak points, at least in relation to one's most focussed specializations.

MonkeySlap Too

10-23-2003, 11:35 AM

My Shuai Chiao teacher used to like going around calling his top students (of which I was one) 'master.' He always smiled when he did this, because I think he did it knowing that if he did call us 'master' we would get CHALLENGED MORE - and therefore get more fighting experience.

I always wondered if my classmates noticed this. Some of them took the 'title' seriously, a few of us saw what the crafty fellow was doing...and accepted the training opportunities...

fa_jing

10-23-2003, 11:40 AM

Well with all of the baiting that goes on around here (insert joke)

brothernumber9

10-23-2003, 11:47 AM

what does it take to be a master?

a slave

Fu-Pow

10-23-2003, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Judge Pen

Fu Pow, I think I agree with you in theory. :eek: BUT:

Even the styles that you train in has those they refer to as "Master." Have those individuals reached the point where there is no room for improvement or refinement?

No, they still have room to improve and are constantly modifying and refining movements. If you look at film of my CLF Sifu when he was 26 vs. now, he is better now even though he is 2x as old. His movements are more graceful and refined.

My Taiji SiGung is 75 yrs old and we are still getting refinement coming down the pipeline through my Sifu. The principles remain the same but he keeps getting a clearer and clearer picture of those principles. So the form and intention change ever so slightly. In addition he understands how better to teach the principles so he might modify a section of the form so that the nuances of that movement are easier to discern.

Also, Master is an english word not a Chinese one. Kung fu teachers, or teachers of any trade in China are simply referred to as Si Fu.

Si Fu means teacher-father literally in Chinese. It implies a sort of apprenticeship relationship. The closest English words for this is Master (ie Master and Apprentice.) It doesn't imply "mastery" which I stated before implies a finished product.

The whole idea of being "finished" is more of a Western idea than than Eastern. In Eastern thought the ongoing process is just as important as the outcome. Things go in cycles, nothing stays the same.

Judge Pen

10-23-2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Fu-Pow

My Taiji SiGung is 75 yrs old and we are still getting refinement coming down the pipeline through my Sifu.

I understand Master implies an end of development, but isn't Sigung the Chinese equivilent of Grand Master? What does that mean. Have they reached a point where refinement and improvement are no longer needed?

MasterKiller

10-23-2003, 12:13 PM

Sigung is your teacher's teacher....not really "master" as such.

norther practitioner

10-23-2003, 12:40 PM

There is usually chances that you have more than one sigung via a single teacher too (especially if you are learning multiple styles or systems).

rogue

10-23-2003, 12:44 PM

If you need to be a master you could always make up your own system, make up a lineage, (I'd trace my art to Sifu Abel) and then make yourself the head of it.

I wonder what ever happened to the Wan King Fist guys?;)

Ray Pina

10-23-2003, 12:46 PM

Kelly Slater is a master of surfing.
Mike Jordan a master of basketball.
Salvador Dal a master of painting.
Master Chan a master of martial arts.

In my eye each of them have taken an art form to a new level, have refined their techniques and create magic whenever they perform their craft.

Is their a cap? They wouldn't have reached that level if they themselves thought there was one.

Dark Knight

10-23-2003, 12:53 PM

Go here http://www.bushido.org/~whfsc/

Clickmembership

Click Master Division

Follow directions and pay a fee

MonkeySlap Too

10-23-2003, 01:20 PM

EF - you make a great point.

There 'master' in the term of mastery and 'master' as owner.

In ma most people refer to the former, but for may it becomes the later, as they get 'owned' by a goofy teacher.

Frankly, I am uncomfortable with titles and accolades being used in martial arts. It tends to get rather silly in my opinion. But I was raised as an American, and I question anyone who is raised here who feels the need to define themselves through a title in martial arts. Something just seems wrong.

But there are plenty of players I would refer to as having mastery in what they do...

Water Dragon

10-23-2003, 01:27 PM

shiiit. MonkeySlap has own3d me more than a couple of times

OWN3D (http://a4.cpimg.com/image/CA/61/25049034-869e-016700EF-.jpg)

shaolinarab

10-23-2003, 01:47 PM

don't you remember the part where the sifu taps leroy on his head and says,

"It is there, only there, that you shall find, the master."

pearls of wisdom, indeed! :p

Fu-Pow

10-23-2003, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Judge Pen

I understand Master implies an end of development, but isn't Sigung the Chinese equivilent of Grand Master? What does that mean. Have they reached a point where refinement and improvement are no longer needed?

Si Gung simply means your teacher's teacher. Again Grandmaster again is an english term. My Sifu explained to me that many "Masters" of kung fu take on the name "Grandmaster" because why be simply a Master when you can be a GRANDmaster.

So you see how ridiculous this quickly becomes when there is no official organization that sanctions these names.

I'd say if we stick with the original terms we'd be better off:

Sifu- teacher who was sanctioned by his teacher to pass on the system. Would also say that in order to be a Sifu you need to have your own students. What is a teacher without students?

You could also say "Lineage Holder." But if you are calling yourself a Sifu then it already kind of implies that you are a lineage holder.

Sigung-teacher of a Sifu

Jeong Mun Yun- "Watcher of the Door", "Keeper of the Style" or "Standard Bearer", a person who is designated by his peers in his style as the best at that style or has the most complete knowledge of the style. He is held as the standard to be judged against. More common in lineages that have close family ties.

Judge Pen

10-23-2003, 02:35 PM

I understand what you are saying, but doesn't your own school have a "Grand Master?"

Grand Master Mak Hin Fai

It may be an American thing, but one that is adopted easily by our teachers that allow us to call them that out of respect.

One of the SD criticisms is that How can you learn from someone that is not a Master of that style. I wanted to know what your definition of a master was and if everyone here was learning from a genuine master. I guess I still don't know what that term means.

David Jamieson

10-23-2003, 02:36 PM

you are master to the guy lying at your feet unconcious and bleeding from the beating you just gave him.

Later, you are still his master as he cries to you for water from the place in teh basement where you have chanied him. Muwahahahahahaha.

Who cares anyway. You'll never know when you've "mastered" anything. All you'll know is that you like doing it and you seem to be getting better with practice.

cheers

Fu-Pow

10-23-2003, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I understand what you are saying, but doesn't your own school have a "Grand Master?"

Grand Master Mak Hin Fai

It may be an American thing, but one that is adopted easily by our teachers that allow us to call them that out of respect.

One of the SD criticisms is that How can you learn from someone that is not a Master of that style. I wanted to know what your definition of a master was and if everyone here was learning from a genuine master. I guess I still don't know what that term means.

Yes...yes....my Sifu calls himself Grandmaster but it's for the reason that I stated before. He realizes how silly it is but for "marketing purposes" why would you call yourself master when other people that are your junior are calling themselves grandmaster?

I guess you could think of "grandmaster" as a similar term as Si Gung. It usually implies that you have taught someone to Sifu level and now they are teaching their own students (which my Sifu has).

But its not exactly the same because the only people that call
Si Gung by that name are his student's students. Where as someone on the outside might call someone Grandmaster.

There seems to be some language/cultural barrier which has yet to be overcome in these "titles." Because Si Fu simply means Si Fu, it doesn't translate well to a perfect English equivalent.

Brad

10-23-2003, 04:21 PM

One of the SD criticisms is that How can you learn from someone that is not a Master of that style.
Just thought I'd correct you a bit... the question was how could you master a style when your teacher is not a master of the style your trying to master ;). There's a difference :D You can learn anything from anyone... I can teach someone to be fairly competent in longfist, but I'd never call myself a master :p

I really don't know of to many quality teachers that refer to themselves as master or grandmaster within' their own school. Maybe for advertising to strangers, yeah. There's a few people that use the term master in our school when talking about our teacher, but that's usually because they either brought the term over from their Karate school, or they're going by the "master/disciple" type relationship and are very close to teacher. In the later case, we usually say "sifu". Most call him teacher or "laoshi" when talking to him directly.

Also, I think occasionally you come across someone who's just obviously so **** good, people will call them a master of (insert system/style here).

I allways feel wierd saying the word "master" though because my first wushu teacher admonished me for it. His exact words were "it makes me feel like some southern plantation owner" :D

MonkeySlap Too

10-23-2003, 04:36 PM

WD - so I'm goofy now, eh?

Fu-Pow

10-23-2003, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by Brad

I really don't know of to many quality teachers that refer to themselves as master or grandmaster within' their own school. Maybe for advertising to strangers, yeah. There's a few people that use the term master in our school when talking about our teacher, but that's usually because they either brought the term over from their Karate school, or they're going by the "master/disciple" type relationship and are very close to teacher. In the later case, we usually say "sifu". Most call him teacher or "laoshi" when talking to him directly.

southern plantation owner" :D

Bingo!

neigung

10-23-2003, 06:19 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Water Dragon

OWN3D (http://a4.cpimg.com/image/CA/61/25049034-869e-016700EF-.jpg) [/QUOTE

BAHAHAHAHAHA
That rules.

Serpent

10-23-2003, 06:55 PM

Master as a title is something other people call a teacher for whom they have the highest respect. Nothing more.

Gold Horse Dragon

10-23-2003, 07:19 PM

What FP has posted re: translations and meanings of Sifu and Sigung are correct. I would add the following:
I run a Mo Gwoon in Chinatown with the approval of the elders there. The elder (and others) who is the leader, refers to me as Sifu (Cantonese) or Master (in English). He equates them...so I do not argue, but I prefer to be addressed as Sifu and not master.
I believe you do master an art wherein you know it inside and out. But because you have mastered an art does not make you a Sifu...on the otherhand...to be a Sifu you MUST have mastered the art. Sifu implies you teach the art and are a master of it. Because you have mastered something does not mean it is the end to your improvement and learning...no one knows everything. To have mastered an art implies a high level of knowledge, expertise and insight. Consider it equivilent to a PHd. But PHds' continue to be involved in research and discoveries...so because one has mastered his art does not mean 'thats it and no more'! If you are not moving ahead, you are falling behind. I have a saying "To become exceptionally good at an art, master technique. To master an art, transcend technique".

GHD

CrippledAvenger

10-23-2003, 08:11 PM

In the realm of martial arts, I respect people who fight and fight well. I don't respect people who only have title or lineage, nor am I that impressed with martial artists showing good "character".

People who have both a lineage and fighting skills are to be respected indeed. And if they're decent human beings to boot, I buy them a beer when I see them.
;)

joedoe

10-23-2003, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon
What FP has posted re: translations and meanings of Sifu and Sigung are correct. I would add the following:
I run a Mo Gwoon in Chinatown with the approval of the elders there. The elder (and others) who is the leader, refers to me as Sifu (Cantonese) or Master (in English). He equates them...so I do not argue, but I prefer to be addressed as Sifu and not master.
I believe you do master an art wherein you know it inside and out. But because you have mastered an art does not make you a Sifu...on the otherhand...to be a Sifu you MUST have mastered the art. Sifu implies you teach the art and are a master of it. Because you have mastered something does not mean it is the end to your improvement and learning...no one knows everything. To have mastered an art implies a high level of knowledge, expertise and insight. Consider it equivilent to a PHd. But PHds' continue to be involved in research and discoveries...so because one has mastered his art does not mean 'thats it and no more'! If you are not moving ahead, you are falling behind. I have a saying "To become exceptionally good at an art, master technique. To master an art, transcend technique".

GHD

I agree, and think that EF gave one of the best analogies I have heard so far - the one of master and apprentice. And really, the notion that mastery implies an end is incorrect. You can be a master but you can always expand the boundaries of your art. When you stop developing your art will die.

Ray Pina

10-24-2003, 06:45 AM

I always adress my teacher as Master, and don't feel silly about it. I used to call him sifu and he asked me to stop because I don't live with him and he doesn't support me.

Simply put, my master is the best MA I've ever met. His teachers weren't too bad either: http://www.chan-internal-martial-arts.com/imperialpalacebagua

So I think master in his case implies and I consider it a privelege to learn from him. My master doesn't care if you call him teacher, coach or master, just don't call him by name ... some used to, and I wanted to put them through the wall.

But I have to admit, I had just as much respect at the time for my karate sensei and later two of my kung fu teachers. I wouldn't think of learning from someone I didn't respect. In college there was an isshin-ry club. The teacher was a Jersey City cop with a **** poor attitude ... I never went back.

My teachers have been the most important people in my life.

Judge Pen

10-24-2003, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by Brad

Just thought I'd correct you a bit... the question was how could you master a style when your teacher is not a master of the style your trying to master ;). There's a difference :D You can learn anything from anyone... I can teach someone to be fairly competent in longfist, but I'd never call myself a master :p

That's my dig. I have the confidence that Master Mullins has "mastered" the forms and techniques he is teaching me, but he isn't considered a master in the indivdual styles (as we dont teach complete systetems with some exceptions) Can I trust what he is teaching me if he has masterd the forms, but doesn't know every form in the system? What is a master (beyond the title)?

Shaolin-Do

10-24-2003, 07:00 AM

'mastery' involves precision of technique and the ability to apply techniques efficiently and quickly against a resisting opponent.
I call sifu kirk sifu and kirk. Call Shifu Sal Shifu or Sal.
:)

shaolinarab

10-24-2003, 07:33 AM

and i call SD shifu because he is a master of drinking ;)

Shaolin-Do

10-24-2003, 07:53 AM

Drinking and....?
;)

Edit: as far as drinking goes... Im a college student. Im a Texan. Need I say more? :eek:
(Actually I havent gotten drunk in a month or so... thatll probably change soon however.)

Ray Pina

10-24-2003, 08:21 AM

I like what Judge Pen said. If your teacher has masterd a few moves that work for a lot of situations, that is great and all that is needed. Forget how many forms he knows.

Being a "master" is kind of relative. How deep is their well? Internal knowledge? Stand up, ground? How long can they keep it (age?) How long can they extend (how big of a guy does it work against? 50lbs bigger? 150 lbs bigger?)

Sort of like a great art teacher can teach one a lot. But relative to Picasso, Dali, ect. Sticky situation.

All that matters is that one learns and can apply what they learn.

MonkeySlap Too

10-24-2003, 08:36 AM

Crippled - to me character is everything, as the best way to win a conflict is by having the wisdom to not put yourself into stupid positions. I will not teach someone to fight, if I don't think thier mind is right. Period.

And I do not respect someone just because they can fight. I run a fighting school, but there more to it than just pounding someone down.

Water Dragon

10-24-2003, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
WD - so I'm goofy now, eh?

How is it that I always manage to get myself into trouble :confused:

MonkeySlap Too

10-24-2003, 08:47 AM

I'm just f@cking around - sorry, I thought you'd see the joke...guess I've been spending too much time at work. Sorry, WD.

CrippledAvenger

10-24-2003, 08:53 AM

MST--

Maybe I didn't make that clear enough. I respect people who can fight, because I have to. It doesn't mean I'd associate with them or teach them, but I am aware of the damage they can cause to me and others. That's as far as my respect goes. Unsavory people are a given in any martial or combative tradition, but it doesn't mean that they can't kick my ass.

If you can fight and you're traditional, it's the same thing. It's more that I'm impressed and make a note to watch myself around person in question.

Finally, if you're a good person and can fight, I not only respect you, but I'd bring you in, close, you know? You become a friend, a mentor, a brother, a sister, what have you. It's a rare thing, but to find someone who's truly a good person and can fight, well, hell, I'd not only buy them a beer.

MOST people who claim mastery though through "good character" ala a strip mall karate dojo, just irritatate me, as it's a very cloying brand of false humility. If they actually are good people and do help out around the community, that's a whole different matter. However, I haven't met all that many who were in my short time on this earth. :(

We on the same page, for the most part?

Water Dragon

10-24-2003, 08:59 AM

I know MonkeySlap, I was just playin' too. Besides, I can outrun you now. You can't beat up what you can't catch :p

Shaolin-Do

10-24-2003, 09:04 AM

I throw rocks like a master. Bow before my l337 rock throwing skillz.
Yeah.

MST, WD, or whoever you guys practice with... what does your conditioning usually consist of?

MonkeySlap Too

10-24-2003, 09:15 AM

Crip - we are exactly on the same page...

WD - I'll just chase you down hill so when I fall from wheezing I'll just roll over you and squish your skinny in-shape punk @ss!

Tomorrow I return to my training regimin full time. 3 Weeks of unemployment before the new gig. Which means a good four hours a day of training. Can't wait.

rubthebuddha

10-24-2003, 09:18 AM

crippy's right -- it's what the person exudes in both technique and behavior, not what the person puts on their business card.

and to break down the respect part, if someone can fight but is an anus, i'll respect their skills and what it took to get him or her there, but that doesn't mean i'll regard the person with any high esteem.

i think it boils down to control -- they can control their technique easily and control themselves easily. they may have a desire to improve and test themselves (which they should), but they shouldn't feel they have to do so to impress others. they should also understand the line between friend and teacher, and blur it in the most subtle way possible. example:

my instructor occasionally draws the line between friend and teacher. a friend is someone comfortable, to whom you go to to feel at ease. a teacher is someone who pushes your buttons, whether it's comfortable or not. it's their duty to train you, with all the sweat, pain, humility and back to sweat that training brings. he said he likes that we think of him as friendly, but his duty to us is as a teacher. one time after a class in which he said this, i told him privately that i'd consider anyone that does push my buttons with the intent on improving me is probably a better friend than one who doesn't push me.

the grin he had on his face as i figured this out was just infuriating. :mad:

:D

Water Dragon

10-24-2003, 09:19 AM

Check the training Blog over at Emptyflower MS. I've been listing my workouts over there to keep me motivated.

MonkeySlap Too

10-24-2003, 09:20 AM

Sd - I studied my Combat Shuai Chiao under Dr. Brian Wu. I am one of his oldest active students. I live and teach in SF Bay Area. My students are largely in the Chicago area, as that is where I lived for most of my life.

Shaolin-Do

10-24-2003, 09:36 AM

oops. Already sent a PM. Oh well.
?
So who teaches in the Chi town now?

Ray Pina

10-24-2003, 10:21 AM

Crip, you have a great attitude. Luckily, most of the martial artist I have been associated with have been cool, relatively kind people. I think if you're going to bang around with a group consistently there has to be some level of trust -- you're putting your healthy in their hands. Occassionally someone would bring outsiders in with too big an ego and it ruins things, they were never welcomed back.

It's the untrained street kids that are really dangerous. They'll kill ya to save face. As much as I emphasize the martial side of martial arts here, its the other side that comes through everyday for me. I have to say, in some respects, Karate is superior to Kung Fu in that regard. When I started at 4 my sensei made me sit on my knees, hands and feet folded, for about a month before he showed me anything. Discipline and respect were a must ... lots of pushups on the knuckles.