The real Shaolin-Do techniques thread [Archive]

fa_jing

10-23-2003, 11:35 AM

Serpent had a good idea. Why don't some of you SD pracs. let us in on your basic fighting techniques:

1. Under what situations do you move from one range to another?

2. For a knockout, do you generally prefer a single strike or multiple strikes?

3. Do you have any advice for dealing with a knife fighter?

4. How would you deal with a Thai Boxer? A western Boxer?

5. Name your 5 personal most reliable empty-handed techniques.

6. How do you feel about attacking the front gate versus the side gate?

7. Under what circumstances will you attempt a throw?

8. Since you practice in bare feet, what adjustments do you make in order to express your art with shoes on?

These are just some suggestions. I'm going to turn the thread over to you guys and hopefully it will make for a good read later. I'm always interested in how different styles deal with different situations.

Judge Pen

10-23-2003, 11:59 AM

Although there woudl be some common denominators, the answers to these questions would depend as much on personal fighting styles as it would SD. In other words, my teacher would probably answer these questions somewhat differntly then I would as would themeecer, or BentMonk, Bluesman, shaolinarab, SD, etc. We are given differnt techniques to explore put the choice from these techniques is often a personal one:

1. I try to move to 0 range as quickly as possible. I want to crowd my opponent and stick to then so I can use conter-punches and low kicks to drop them. I will, however, move to kicking range in hopes of baiting them inside in hopes that they will not only play my game, but they will feel like they chose to move inside. I will often kick into their guard in hopes that they will attempt to counter-attack and leave themselves open in the process. If I am fighting in this mode, my lateral steps are larger. When I'm inside my steps are smaller and I rely more on hip and waist rotation to evade techniques.

2. :confused: As many as it takes.

3. Chances are that you will get cut if you deal with a knife fighter. Limiting the area that you expose is the key.

4. I've never fought a Thai Boxer. They appear to be equally strong at the outside and inside range. I suppose I would work on evasiveness and mobilty and not allow then to close the distance to where the clinch and knees and elbosw are effective. I would keep my hands up and elbow in against a western boxer and try to use lower kicks to his legs while minimizing their reach.

5. Pi Chuan, Tsuan Chuan, Peng Chuan, Pao Chuan Heng Chuan (my personal five most effective empty hand techniques)

6. I'll attack what is open. I prefer to attack one's centerline, but depending on what targets they present I'll either rely on quick punches toi open the door or I'll try to flank my opponent with footwork to open up their guard.

7. I dont' try to throw often, but I will attempt foot sweeps if one places too much weight on their front foot. If my opponent over etends a punch or kick, then I have been known to use a basic hip toss in sparring.

8. I practice in shoes. When I practiced barefoot I was taught to turn my toes back on front and round kicks and focus on the ball of the foot. This is more difficult in shoes plus the added stability and padding in shoes allows one to focus on the top of the foot for front and round kicks.

These answers are off the cuff and bare given the format. I'd be glad to meet with anyone and talk about fighting theories in person.

Evad

10-23-2003, 12:03 PM

Unfortunately I cannot speak representatively for all other SD schools in regards to some of your questions. I can however offer what I show my students.

Concerning shoes - I have my students train both with and without shoes. I have experience with teaching gymnastics formally, and I try to incorporate that into my martial art program. It's very dangerous to tumble seriously while wearing shoes, so that could be a safety issue for one. As for it being a possible taboo, I can't say, as my teacher has always worn shoes more than not. From spring through summer we usually get outside to train and then shoes are mandatory.

The type of shoe is versatile, everything from tennis shoes, to the little 'kung fu' shoes that are popular.

Are we going to take off our shoes in a situation, heck no. The sole of a shoe is harder than my foot, and as such can become a nice weapon. I teach my students to brace the bottom of their shoes for impact. In barefeet a front kick using the ball of the foot with the toes peeled back is proper, but when a shoe is added then you would want to 'point' the toes inside the shoe. This has the effect of 'flattening' out the sole of the shoe and make it more rigid for a strike. Also, the tread on the shoe can leave some 'skid marks' on someone, even through your average blue jean attire, try raking a shin with some good hiking boots on:D

Also, shoes can provide some extra dimension to our practice, with added weight, mild elevation from the ground (the thickness of the sole0 and ankle supprt. So I have all my students practice their forms with shoes on, I feel that it adds to their training.

The inverse is true as well, if your training in shoes of whatever design, would it be worthwhile to express what you do in barefeet? ;)

Skummer

10-23-2003, 12:10 PM

1. Under what situations do you move from one range to another?

* Always move to biting range

2. For a knockout, do you generally prefer a single strike or
multiple strikes?

* Biting Que Pan is the best means of achieving a KO

3. Do you have any advice for dealing with a knife fighter?

* Dodge the knife and bite the qianzhang point

4. How would you deal with a Thai Boxer? A western Boxer?

* When he tries the inevitable roundhouse kick, bite it

5. Name your 5 personal most reliable empty-handed techniques.

* Splitting bite, chopping bite, drilling bite, crushing bite, and the coveted 10,000 bee bite

6. How do you feel about attacking the front gate versus the side gate?

* Front gate, side gate, it makes no difference as long as I can bite with powerful jing

7. Under what circumstances will you attempt a throw?

* Only if I've failed with a bite to Feng Fu or Yin Tang

8. Since you practice in bare feet, what adjustments do you make in order to express your art with shoes on?

* Fighting barefoot makes it very possible to bite your opponent's feet if he grapples or kicks you

:D :D :D :D

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Golden Tiger

10-23-2003, 12:15 PM

Hmmm, lets see what I can offer here....

Note: Some of the terms used in your questions may be interpreted differently.

1. Range ( inreference to distance from an opponent): Me personally, I always stay at about 1.25 distance (kick and a 1/4) until i am ready to throw an attack. This includes when on the defensive, after an initial attack from my opponent, I will move that that distance so that I control the tempo of the fight.

2. Unless you get really lucky, single strike KO's don't happen unless its a sucker punch or a weighted glove. Therefore, multiple strikes are needed IMO. At zero distance, going the the KO, you should hit as fast and as hard and as many times as you can. When (of If) they fall, you shouldn't be able to tell if it was strike 1 or 15 that did the job.

3. Empty hand vs. knife: Ignore the knife. It can't hurt you, only the hand holding it can. If you concentrate on the weapon, you will ignore to many other things. So, go offensive and try to imobilize the hand or wait till an attack is made and do you best to block it. Best advice, Run!!!!!!!!! It isn't worth it.

4. Thai boxer: Never been in a match agaiinst one before but I would imagine that I would do my best to stay out of the range of the leg kicks (****, that has to hurt) and then work my way inside, easier to block the knees and elbows and work my magic.

Boxer: Keep them at my prefered 1.25 distance and kick the doo-doo out of them if they got any closer. No way that I could go hand to hand with them.

5. 1. Front punch 2.Front kick 3. Front smash 4. invert kick to groin 5. Front kick (I used it twice, I like it so much)

6. Not sure about the gate reference, is this as in to the opponent body open head on vs. from a side stance (ony one side exposed)

7. Only when i am stuck to my opponent will I try to throw them or perhaps sweep the leg. IMO, to throw, you have to get pretty darned close to someone and I would prefer not to get that close. Too many chances for mistake.

8.No adjustment. We do it in our bare feet because Master Sin first started teaching in Ky and no one had any shoes......

They you go.....

BentMonk

10-23-2003, 12:26 PM

1. Everything I do is zero distance.

2. As many as needed

3. Attack the hand and arm, not the weapon. Limit my exposure.

4. Thai boxers are renowned for toughness and strength. I have no choice but to fight in his range, but would attempt some sort of vital area strike. ie: eyes, throat, temple, etc. I would have no choice but to box a boxer and hope I was stronger and faster.

5. Right jab, Left jab, left cross, upper-cut, rising elbow.

6. I immediately attack the center line, hopefully forcing my opponent to play my game.

7. I only attempt a throw if my attacker is more off balance than me, which is rare. I grab, pull, and climb, pummeling with fist, elbow, or knee as I go.

8. I wear shoes when I train, and throw knees instead of kicks. No adjustment required.

I train and condition very hard. My goal is to keep a real confrontation as short and simple as possible. In reality I would probably land one or two shots before being hit with a counter. Surprise is my best weapon, given the fact that in street clothes I look like a good victim. My hope is to punch, elbow, or knee hard enough to be able to get away. I suck at tournament sparring. I have a blast doing it though. JP has seen this. In my last tournament match I ate quite a few kicks, but landed several punches to my opponents head. The fight ended with my hand clutching the guys wind pipe. He won in the gym, but would've died in the street. I'd rather win on the street any day. There's my two cents. Peace.
:cool:

Judge Pen

10-23-2003, 12:41 PM

BentMonk,

I have your fight on tape. I loved the surprise in the guys face when you hit him square in the face. You could see that he realized it was a mistake to think this was going to be an easy win. :p

I didn't realize that you were a Tool fan too. More to you then meets the eye.

fa_jing

10-23-2003, 12:45 PM

Judge Pen: a one-punch knockout would be to clear a big path and take a powerful swing. A multiple punch knockout would be to use faster, less powerful strikes and rely on the effect of bouncing the brain around inside the skull. Many styles will actually emphasize one or the other or both.

Evad: Yes, I do train some without shoes as well as with shoes. I'm thinking of balance considerations and the details of kicking with the toe, which were mentioned.

Skummer: LOL, I'm sure we all got a kick out of that (I did). However hopefully we've got the humor out of our systems now and can focus on the subject matter.

Golden Tiger: I like the front kick too. I prefer the thrusting variety with the heel or whole foot making contact. For the invert kick, is that like a twisting kick? If so I'm suprised to see it on your list of basic techniques.

For the gates, front gate means approach them directly and side gate means maneuvering to out flank the opponent and entering from their side, usually in combination with a controlling hand technique OR doing this while they are stuck in a committed motion like some kicks.

BentMonk: Looks like you have a solid awareness of your abilities and limitations. That's good to see. We can't all be carbon copies of one another.

Chang Style Novice

10-23-2003, 12:47 PM

"I only attempt a throw if my attacker is more off balance than me, which is rare."

There's a really impolite comment to make wrt this statement, and while I'm not going to make it, I'm not going to just let it sit there either.

BentMonk

10-23-2003, 12:52 PM

JP - I'd be lying if I said I didn't get a kick out of his shocked expression myself. It works for me if people want to underestimate me though. ;) A Perfect Circle is playing here Nov. 29. I can't wait. I wish Tool would play here again, missed 'em last time.

BentMonk

10-23-2003, 12:56 PM

CSN - Since I'm a natuarl smart azz myself, go ahead and crack the joke. Trust me, I've had 12 years of school, and 34 years of living, my skin is pretty thick where humor is concerned. :D

Chang Style Novice

10-23-2003, 01:00 PM

I didn't mean a joke - although it's easy enough to do that.

What I meant was that if you're often less balanced than you're opponents, you're probably in trouble. If you're rarely able to break your opponent's balance, that's definitely something to work on. But the way you phrased it made it sound as if you're constantly about to fall over, and I hope we all agree that would be about the worst possible trait for an MA to have.

BentMonk

10-23-2003, 01:12 PM

CSN - My balance when I'm stationary sucks. While I'm moving is another story however. If I get a hold of my opponent I can use my strength and body weight to my advantage pretty well. I am constantly working on ways to improve my balance. I have a thread on here that addresses this issue to the Judo and BJJ guys. I've gotten some really good advice and training techniques. The phrasing of my original post was a joke on myself.

Judge Pen

10-23-2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by fa_jing
Judge Pen: a one-punch knockout would be to clear a big path and take a powerful swing. A multiple punch knockout would be to use faster, less powerful strikes and rely on the effect of bouncing the brain around inside the skull. Many styles will actually emphasize one or the other or both.

I try to punch hard and fast. I always throw multiple combinations so I don't rely on a one punch knockout.

Chang Style Novice

10-23-2003, 01:23 PM

When I'm working out with Denzel, my steadiest training partner, I often find myself trying to overpower him with my size and weight. Crafty SOB that he is, he usually just gets out from under me and tells me "Stop leaning on me! I'm holding you up."

Bad habits suck.

Golden Tiger

10-23-2003, 01:50 PM

Invert kick: If we are side to side my left, your right, imagine a kick where I kick to your stomach or groin striking with the ball of my left foot. Leg pivots at the hip socket, in essence making it horizontal and then striking out . Very effective and fast.

themeecer

10-23-2003, 01:50 PM

1) I normally stay out of range moving left and right. If I see a broad opening I will dart in to attack. I prefer to attack on the defensive.
2) I don't train 'knock outs,' I train 'cause as much damage' as fast as I can and remove myself from the situation. If I was actually going for a knock out I would prefer to do it with multiple strikes versus a punch intended to knock a person out. The latter one is more risky than the former one, in my opinion.
3) I like the other person's comment. Run. If you can't run or if the guy was stepping to you and needed the smack down :D I would first off realize that my hands will get cut. Better them than my chest or head. We do have some techniques and short forms that deal with a knife attacker. Either kicking the arm and hand that holds the weapon, (only when they are not in close range, in case you miss) or waiting for the attack and blocking the arm while you evade with your body. (Easier to show than to explain on here)
4) Thai boxer? Never sparred one of those but can admire their invulnerable shins. I am still advancing in my iron shin training but eventually would block their low kicks with my own shin. Western boxer? Do my best to keep him out of close range, use my feet a lot. This might possibly be a rare case where I would use a throw.
5) 1. 1st favorite is the automatic groin kick, I just love to see high kickers. 2. Side kick, this works well for me, I have good timing with it and can stick it in their ribs as they move to attack. 3.
6) I prefer the side gate. I like to corner a lot and evade the attacks, then come in from their blind side.
7) Don't use throws that much. I will use a sweep and normally do it from an advancing position from medium range. I will also use it anytime someone allows me to grab their kicking leg.
8) I train both in bare feet and shoes. I really don't have to make an adjustment since I am comfortable in both. Or I should say my body naturally makes the adjustments.

Fu-Pow

10-23-2003, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Skummer
1. Under what situations do you move from one range to another?

* Always move to biting range

2. For a knockout, do you generally prefer a single strike or
multiple strikes?

* Biting Que Pan is the best means of achieving a KO

3. Do you have any advice for dealing with a knife fighter?

* Dodge the knife and bite the qianzhang point

4. How would you deal with a Thai Boxer? A western Boxer?

* When he tries the inevitable roundhouse kick, bite it

5. Name your 5 personal most reliable empty-handed techniques.

* Splitting bite, chopping bite, drilling bite, crushing bite, and the coveted 10,000 bee bite

6. How do you feel about attacking the front gate versus the side gate?

* Front gate, side gate, it makes no difference as long as I can bite with powerful jing

7. Under what circumstances will you attempt a throw?

* Only if I've failed with a bite to Feng Fu or Yin Tang

8. Since you practice in bare feet, what adjustments do you make in order to express your art with shoes on?

* Fighting barefoot makes it very possible to bite your opponent's feet if he grapples or kicks you

:D :D :D :D

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

That was the funniest post I have ever read rolflmao!!!!

Ralphie

10-23-2003, 02:43 PM

1. I try to move to 0 range as quickly as possible. I want to crowd my opponent and stick to then so I can use conter-punches and low kicks to drop them. I will, however, move to kicking range in hopes of baiting them inside in hopes that they will not only play my game, but they will feel like they chose to move inside. I will often kick into their guard in hopes that they will attempt to counter-attack and leave themselves open in the process. If I am fighting in this mode, my lateral steps are larger. When I'm inside my steps are smaller and I rely more on hip and waist rotation to evade techniques.

Since there is so much negativity towards SD guys, I wanted to say that this sounds like a good overall strategy. I've seen this to be effective fighting. Thanks JP for that insight.

Judge Pen

10-27-2003, 03:08 PM

Thanks Ralphie.

It's funny that as soon as someone compliments an SDer for displaying a scintilla of martial knowledge, the thread dies immediately! :p

fa_jing

10-27-2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Invert kick: If we are side to side my left, your right, imagine a kick where I kick to your stomach or groin striking with the ball of my left foot. Leg pivots at the hip socket, in essence making it horizontal and then striking out . Very effective and fast.

How is this a bread and butter technique? Seems that it would require considerable set-up. BTW I know this kick from TKD, where it is used as a deceptive kick...as well it is a kick in the Wing Chun system, but is only used in one special situation that I can think of.

fa_jing

10-27-2003, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by themeecer
1) I normally stay out of range moving left and right. If I see a broad opening I will dart in to attack. I prefer to attack on the defensive.
2) I don't train 'knock outs,' I train 'cause as much damage' as fast as I can and remove myself from the situation. If I was actually going for a knock out I would prefer to do it with multiple strikes versus a punch intended to knock a person out. The latter one is more risky than the former one, in my opinion.

I'm missing something as far as the consistancy of this approach. If your objective that you train for is to remove yourself from the situation, than I don't see why you wouldn't just run if you are out of range. As for not training "knock outs" - well what if you do need to incapacitate the opponent, for whatever reason? How do you plan to go about doing so? You say you aren't too into throwing, and you aren't training yourself to go for a knockout - so that leaves us with infliction of a joint break or eye/nut gouge - all of these things which are harder to pull off than a knockout, IMO. Please elaborate.

themeecer

10-27-2003, 04:00 PM

I'll gladly elaborate. I was speaking of two different situations, as I think others were ... sparring and real combat. Number 1 was answered for sparring, number 2 more for real fights. The original poster didn't specify what he wanted. Which way do you want me to answer these questions?

fa_jing

10-27-2003, 07:27 PM

Well do you train to knock someone out, for sport?

trilobite

10-27-2003, 07:50 PM

I'll answer for him, we do train to knock out, for some reason though our teachers our sticklers on insurance and we don't hit each other very hard unless a full contact division has been set up.

But even in the 3 white cranes only taught at 3rd brown sash, each one of them has SOME DEFINITE way of knocking someone out.

Even in Lohan Ch'uan there's a technique that shatters an opponents ribs. As well as throws

We can knock people out, that is a most definite YES.

themeecer

10-27-2003, 09:03 PM

Well do you train to knock someone out, for sport?
No matter what I say a few of you will attack me for my comments because I have become your poster boy for your pent up angers and inadequacies and also to you sick puppies that actually take joy in trying to bring others down.

For sport no. We practice full contact from time to time but not full force. My goal in training is not to beat a fellow student so hard that he looses consciousness. I am concerned how my opponent counters a committed punch that has the potential to knock him silly if we had not been wearing pads. I am also concerned how I recover after my attack is countered. I know what areas to hit for increased chance for a knockout and am pretty well trained in landing my attacks there as well. I have also played with sequences of knockout points using sharp strikes with varying successes, on my own.

In answer to your previous question about what I would do if I had the need to incapacitate someone, I have never been in that situation. All of the real fights I have been in over the years have never been life or death situations, to the best of my knowledge. I saw no knives or any other weapons drawn. The worst I would have recieved if I had failed would have been a beat up body and maybe some cracked ribs or other broken bones. I never had the need to leave a person laying on the ground not moving, I am afraid to do so. The only time I can forsee the need to do this is in a life and death situation for me or most importantly a loved one. I would not have reservations of leaving this type attacker on the ground, not moving. I pray that neither I nor any of you will ever be in that situation.

Serpent

10-27-2003, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by themeecer
We practice full contact from time to time but not full force.

What does this mean?

themeecer

10-27-2003, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by Serpent

What does this mean?
You honestly don't know? Full force is what you see in real fights and also in UFCs, you are physically trying to hurt the other person. Full contact, at least in my definition, is about the same force as a totally untrained fighter would use. Yes, it could hurt someone while sparring but with the gear on real damage would be kept to a minimum. This is enough force to better simulate real combat because of the need to have comitted attacks. I know that is a rough definition, maybe someone that utilizes that definition and concept can elaborate further. I am getting pulled away from the boards for a bit.

CrippledAvenger

10-27-2003, 09:25 PM

In the boxing world we call that "sparring".

themeecer

10-27-2003, 09:27 PM

But we are not talking about boxing. Boxers do try to hit each other till they knock the other person out.

Water Dragon

10-27-2003, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by themeecer
But we are not talking about boxing. Boxers do try to hit each other till they knock the other person out.

Not in sparring.

themeecer

10-27-2003, 09:30 PM

Ok then .. we are talking about sparring then.

You are saying my definition of full contact but not full force is what boxers call sparring?

Water Dragon

10-27-2003, 09:32 PM

sparring is generally 50 - 70 % power. Why would you want to injure your training partners? Who ya gonna play with then?

CrippledAvenger

10-27-2003, 09:34 PM

Yup. Boxers have many different intensity levels for sparring. You can go fifty percent (usual, run of the mill sparring), you can go seventy five percent power (e.g. training for an upcoming bout), etc...

It's not ever broken down into two different styles of fighting, it's just controlling how hard you're hitting. You don't want to seriously injure your sparring partners, but you don't want to tap them either. The closer to the bout you are, the harder you go up to a point. You want to get used to getting hit hard and hitting hard, while avoiding needless injury before the match.

Your definition of full force matches what a boxing match is essentially.

Same goes with Muay Thai or MMA.

themeecer

10-27-2003, 09:40 PM

Cool, I learned something here. We are on the same page then on our definition.

Some may feel that only sparring of this caliber and not full force fighting in the ring is bad training, for CMA. I do not.

Serpent

10-27-2003, 09:59 PM

OK, I better understand what you mean now. In my mind, full contact is full force, using your definition. Anything else is sparring with a pre-determined level of force decided beforehand. And I'm CMA, not a boxer, so this would appear to be a fairly generic terminology.

Bluesman

10-28-2003, 12:06 AM

I counter fight, when I do attack it is setup most of the time with a fake or a feign. The invert to the groin/stomach followed by a round house with the same leg to the head is one that I do for real or will fake or feign. Intentionally missing with a kick, spinning hook is a good example, so that they will rush in to attack because they think I am off balance. This makes it easier to catch them with a counter on the way in. But really what I use depends on them.
Worked out at a Thai fighters house with four of his students for about 2.5 hours on Sundays for 6 months. Would remember to watch for leg kicks and block them the way they showed me as we do not do leg kicks. Found that side kicks were something that they did not see when sparring. Liked their pad work. Would not spar under their rules.
As for what I rely on when sparring, side kick, invert kick, round house, break up my timing. But most important, don't force a technique that I want to use but what is most usefull that is being presented to me.
I try not to rely on speed or power as the person I may be sparring with may have greater speed and power.
Left out the boxer,
Never sparred with one so I would not try to trade punches. Would keep hands up and kick when an opening presented itself. Try sweeping front foot followed with a side kick. Again you can not have preconceived notions what you are going to get away with. I would have to feel them out to see what I can and can not do.
My older brother wrestled in high school so I can do a ok hip toss. The front leg sweep either front or reverse. I do better with the reverse.

CaptinPickAxe

10-28-2003, 01:46 AM

I want to crowd my opponent and stick to them

That would put you in a world of hurt against practioners of a throwing art. Thats exactly where I want my opponent, in the clutch.

I used to be primarily a striker, but as of lately I've been trying to think like all my fights will eventually end up in the clutch (as most do). I'll point out some of the habits I'm working to break. In Shuai Chiao a lot of the throws end up with you on one leg. My problem was that I was used to the backwards sweep from shaolin-do. It is okay to keep your feet on the ground as a novice, but as I advance through the system I need to become more comfortable on one foot. Keeping my feet on the ground takes so much power out of my throws. I used to box with my friends when I was younger. Now days I do bookoos of heavy bag work, focus mit training, and 75% sparring. I have to point out that staying fruther away puts my opponent in range for my jab. I used prefer to keep opponents out of the inside with low kicks and jabbing, but now days I'm impartial. I belive it is important to have a great jab.

Judge Pen

10-28-2003, 06:03 AM

CPA,

"That would put you in a world of hurt against practioners of a throwing art. Thats exactly where I want my opponent, in the clutch."

Maybe, but, in the words of Chris Berman, "That's why they play the game." I've free sparred against some Aikido peeps and found success. I'm interested in SC and would like to train with some of you guys too. Everytime I fight, I learn something new.

fa_jing

10-28-2003, 09:53 AM

"Intentionally missing with a kick, spinning hook is a good example, so that they will rush in to attack because they think I am off balance. This makes it easier to catch them with a counter on the way in. But really what I use depends on them."

I could see this working from time to time, but once you reach a certain level of opponent this is not going to work. Despite the fact that you have intentionally missed and are prepared for the rush, you still have left yourself in a compromised position with your missed kick. You are basically stationary and unable to generate momentum in any direction.

As for the invert kick, I say to you guys, do you really think an invert kick will stop a grown, angry man? You cannot count on it reaching the groin, and it is a weak kick, only making use of the quadriceps muscles and not the stronger glutes. To those that would use this kick as a setup for another kick, it sounds like you think the person will be frozen by your invert kick. That's not necessarily the case.

fa_jing

10-28-2003, 09:57 AM

theMeecer: Let's imagine a street fight, where, say, if you let the guy go, he would attack someone else - thus you are forced to incapacitate him. You said that you would leave him lying on the floor. So how is this accomplished? Knockout, chokeout or some other method? You can wear him down with strikes for a time, but eventually you're in the end game. What is your final goal?

Judge Pen

10-28-2003, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by fa_jing
To those that would use this kick as a setup for another kick, it sounds like you think the person will be frozen by your invert kick. That's not necessarily the case.

No it's not necesarrily the case, but the first kick will stun and probably bring your opponents attention down allowing a clear access to the stronger kick. In Aikido they would call it an 'atemi.'

fa_jing

10-28-2003, 10:22 AM

I think alot of people could just walk right through that kick - remember that the chances of having perfect alignment on any strike are low. The kick can be blocked with one hand. Also if you miss with it, you body is in terrible position as you have contorted yourself to be able to deliver the kick. As a non-thrusting kick, there is no structure behind the kick. At least with a round kick you can put your body momentum into it.

Now if you are throwing this kick based on an opening or based on setting up a clean blow with it somehow, that's a completely different story. But remember, I'm asking for bread-and-butter techniques and it sounds like some people may be developing an unhealthy over-reliance on this kick.

Mr Punch

10-28-2003, 10:27 AM

Now we have an aikido vs SD scenario being played out on the main board of kungfu magazine forum.

Now before we all ask the mods to move this whole caboodle to Other Related Arts, can we gather round and chant cripple-FIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!! ...

:D :D :D

I do like fajing's questions though, and they are worthy of being asked of any style...

BentMonk

10-28-2003, 10:31 AM

Did somebody say cripple fight? Where? I'll fight Timmy and Jimmy two on one dang it! They are no match for my Bent Style. I am the only master of Crip Fu. See it says so under my name, so you know it must be true. (all done in best poorly dubbed god awful Chinese accent) lmao Mat :D

Mr Punch

10-28-2003, 10:48 AM

Oh no Mr Monk! It says in your profile that you study SD... and you're a master of Crip-fu...

so
that
must
mean...

Sin The also dismembered himself to incorporate the Iron Chariot, Two Sticks, One Big White Foot, Minamata Monkey Claw, and the Black Knight Yellow ******* forms of the Original Very Secret School of the Kentucky (China) Central Shaolin Temple (TM) into his unique brand of kempo...

cue dramatic lightning flashes... yawn, snooze, coma etc...

Have I denigrated this thread enough yet!? :D

themeecer

10-28-2003, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by fa_jing
theMeecer: Let's imagine a street fight, where, say, if you let the guy go, he would attack someone else - thus you are forced to incapacitate him. You said that you would leave him lying on the floor. So how is this accomplished? Knockout, chokeout or some other method? You can wear him down with strikes for a time, but eventually you're in the end game. What is your final goal?
Quite simply I pull some twist ties from my utility belt and I tie his wrists together. :)

You are speaking of a super rare case. I'll assume some crazed, person that would attack other people after you leave. This is the one time I would stick around till some authorities got there. I would keep him checked on the ground and if he struggled punch him a couple more times. Heck I don't know .. this is a funny question to answer.

BentMonk

10-28-2003, 11:02 AM

Mat - I'm actually the reincarnation of Liu Ti Kwai, but don't tell anybody. :D

Golden Tiger

10-28-2003, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by fa_jing
"
As for the invert kick, I say to you guys, do you really think an invert kick will stop a grown, angry man? You cannot count on it reaching the groin, and it is a weak kick, only making use of the quadriceps muscles and not the stronger glutes. To those that would use this kick as a setup for another kick, it sounds like you think the person will be frozen by your invert kick. That's not necessarily the case.

Actually, I doubt that there is any single technique that will stop an angry fellow except a blind sucker punch. I tend to use the invert more like a jab rather than a finishing move. I thought the original question was more of a "what do you use" type rather than "what is you meanest move". Of course, a side or front thrust would do much more to stop someone or at least slow them down. If we are talking all out, me or you kinda stuff, I would have to say that other than perhaps a sweep or a throw, I would probably use my hands more than anything else.

fa_jing

10-28-2003, 12:50 PM

GT - good answer. Thanks for clearing that up.

dragon797

10-28-2003, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by fa_jing
....As for the invert kick, I say to you guys, do you really think an invert kick will stop a grown, angry man? You cannot count on it reaching the groin, and it is a weak kick, only making use of the quadriceps muscles and not the stronger glutes. To those that would use this kick as a setup for another kick, it sounds like you think the person will be frozen by your invert kick. That's not necessarily the case.

In the early-70s, the Thè brothers took a group of students to compete in a tournament in Chicago. During a discussion of the rules in the center ring, one of the tournament's organiziers said an invert kick would not be counted as a score during the sparring competition because it did not have enough power. After a bit of disagreement, the judge invited Sin to demonstrate the invert kick on him to show Sin and Hiang that he was correct in his assessment. Sin then invert-kicked him in the chest with his instep and knocked the judge out of the ring.

Invert kicks were then scored as legitimate points in the tournament.

Judge Pen

10-28-2003, 02:27 PM

dragon797

Very nice story. That's one that I hadn't heard before. Which students went to the tournament?

JP

MasterKiller

10-28-2003, 02:29 PM