Separating Lion Dancing from Martial Arts

[LionDancer]

I have heard from various people that there is a view to separate lion dancing from the martial arts. I am curious as to what some of the practioneers thoughts are on this subject and the reasoning for their thoughts. Can anyone share their thoughts?

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[Gold Horse Dragon]

Northern lion dance is not associated with kung fu. On the other hand southern lion dance is strongly associated with southern kung fu systems. Anything is possible...but to separate it...what would it look like...they would not be able to continue to use the stances and power movements from kung fu...if they did...then it would still be associated with martial arts.
Personally...I do not think southern lion dance should be separated from it's roots.

GHD

[SevenStar]

Hop Gar master Ku Chi Wai says:

"if you understand kung fu, you understand Lion...no understand kung fu, no understand Lion"

interpret that as you wish

[firepalm]

I have noticed that there are some clubs (via what I have seen on the net) that list themselves as Lion dance clubs with no mention of Kung Fu. Further here in Vancouver there are some classes offered that only teach lion dance. Then of course there are the lion dance competitions that do not have any kung fu side to them. To me it just indicates that lion dance is coming into it's own as an art form, and this is good in that it will help to preserve this art form.
:cool:

[LionDancer]

Firepalm....

interesting perspective...I agree that lion dance is maturing and becoming its own art form whch is a good thing. But can it be possible to truly separate the two? Or is it possible that for those clubs mentioned, they have 'closed door' students?

[firepalm]

IMHO it can never be completely separate, as the stances & footwork of lion dance draws so heavily from south style KF. However from what I have seen of the recent competitions (Malaysia Genting) it looks as if they are requiring more & more skills specific to lion dancing ie; some of the crazy stuff they are doing on the posts, the leaping, wire walking etc...

I saw one video where the lion dancers were doing stuff jumping onto benchs & chairs (knocking them over as they landed on them) that reminded me more of the Chinese acrobatic groups I've seen.

Personally I look forward to seeing where lion dancing will go in the next several years to come!:cool:

[brothernumber9]

The "competition" styles apparently require no kung fu training and in some cases not much to associate visually either. There's a bunch of groups all over S.E. Asia especially in Malaysia and Singapore that do only lion dance and no martial arts. There seems to be either a new style of lion dance developing all together or one version of an old style that has proliferated quite a bit

what I refer to as "competition" is a southern looking lion with what seems to me to be northern movements. For example a jogging type of relaxed prancing footwork as opposed to firm low shifts between kay lun bo, ma bo, jing bo, etc. And a constant triangle movement of the head which I think is good as an initial training tool but In advanced learning the lion should look with intent and focus so that if the lion is looking around for something, people watching can tell it is looking for something, If the lion is looking AT something, people can tell it is looking AT something. There seems to be two major sides of the fence now concerning what is "traditional" lion dance, in specific regard to movement, but the ettiquette still seems consistent either way.

[LionDancer]

your perspective is quite interesting but I should point out that there are high stances & moves (jumps, rolls, tosses, etc.) in addition to the low stances. Further, the triangular movements as I recall are basically for entry level students while shortly after that stage, training for lifelike movements combined with proper stances is the norm and requirement. But your idea/question of the two sides of the fence, I would say the traditional one is the first method of Lion Dancing that existed/taught.

I whole heartedly agree that in either style, ettiquette is mandatory and can not be lost.

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[brothernumber9]

I agree about the jumps, high stances, rolls etc. I just didn't want to over elaborate. I was primarily just trying to describe how the modern competition style is more and more void of kung fu footwork, at least in my opinion. I would very much like to see what these teams do for demonstrations where they cannot use a set routine and don't have exact pre arranged cues on where to pose and such

[LionDancer]

Ahhhh...I see. It seems you and I are on the same page with regard to this.

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[brothernumber9]

Liondancer,

I see from your profile you study or studied jook lum. Did you perhaps learn from Sifu Poo Yee and if you did or even if you didn't were you at his 15th anniversary demonstrations? I only mention it because my sihing and I did a short lion dance using his school's lion there so it might give you a little insight into the "style" or whatever of lion dance we typically do. It was not flashy at all and we didn't do any jumping on the tail or flip type tricks (mainly because I'm small and would barely be able to lift my sihing) just as best we could do with fundamentals, at least as we learned them.

[LionDancer]

Unfortunately I did not study under teacher Poo Yee but rather in New York many years ago. But it is good to hear of your participation and I'm sure you are too modest regarding your performance.

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[sn0w8lade]

I was lucky enough to recently train a little with the malaysian lion team (world champions 2002). They practise only lion, no kung fu @ all. Their form of lion dancing was very diff to @ my club. They hav more emphasis on the life like movements and pole work.

Very different but @ the same time VERY impressive. These guys were amazing !!

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Any form of lion dance MUST focus on life like movements showing the various emotional states of the lion. In traditional LD this will be accompanied by martial art type movements...stances, power generation etc.

GHD

[David Jamieson]

kungfu and lion dance go together pretty good, the kungfu training helps the lion dancer be strong, but ultimately, the kungfu lion dancers do look like kungfu guys doing lion dance :D

Whereas those lion dancers who exclusively do this cultural art form noticeably have different expression.

Lion dance is very old and it's history is so far back in time that no one really knows where it came from except from legends and myths. From Tang dynasty emperors having a dream fo the beast, to Han dynasty recollection of the "year animal" coming and being scared of by a likeness of itself.

The Kungfu connection is quite recent in terms of the actual amount of time that lion dance has been performed.

Pretty much every asian country has their own form of lion dance as well which is interesting in itself. The koreans, the Japanese, the vietnamese, the laotians, the cambodians, everyone, everywhere has their own form of the art.

There are Kungfu schools where i am that also teach Lion dance and the classes are seperate from teh kungfu classes. So basically someone can learn the Lion Dance without learning Kungfu.

And yes, I see the difference in these performers compared to Kungfu lion dancers.

I learned in a Kungfu environment and that's teh lion dance I know and like. But I also like the non-kungfu lion dancers too and their various forms of expression with the puppet.

More is good! it really is fun to watch and even more fun to be involved with.

cheers

[Gold Horse Dragon]

In the 22nd year of Yuan-chia during the reign of Emperor Wen-ti in 446 A.D. the Sung were at war with Lin-i. During this war a general named Tsung Chieh had his soldiers defeat an army using war elephants by have his soliders dress and act as lions and charge the enemy to the roll of battle drums and percussion instruements. This frightened the war elephants and the elephants and ememy were in confusion resulting in the Sung and general Tsung Chieh having the victory. "Therefore, this historical incident may serve as the genesis of the Lion Dance as a branch of the martial arts" - Taken from 'Chinese Lion Dance Explained' by Dr. William C. Hu 1995.

So Lion Dance and martial arts/artists have been closely linked for a very long time. Martial arts essentially gave rise to the Lion Dance that we have known and this has been at least from the Sung Dynasty (Northern Sung 960 A.D/Southern Sung 1127 A.D.)

Further from the book "Various elements of maked dance existed in china prior to the Sung dynasty. In the Sung, lion dance became popular and the final form of lion dance resulted from the merging of two forms of dances: exorcism ritual dances and the court entertainment that had a martial aire. These were later incorporated as a folk dance with the skills and technques of the martial arts which have given rise to lion dance as we know it today". Repeat - with the skills and technques of the martial arts which have given rise to lion dance as we know it today.

All the Kung Fu guys I have seen really bring the lion to life and they have to do so with many variables thrown into the dance rather than on a memorised jong routine. But the jong competitions of late are bringing life to the movements much more than they have done in the past. The bottom line to how life like the lion is - is how well the dancers are taught and the skill that is brought out of them by the Sifu.
A real test of how life like the lion has is when in traditional Lion Dance on the street, the lion meets a dog. I have had some excellent Lion Dancers (all kung fu guys) who have had dogs cower in terror and ones that wanted to fight our lion...pretty life like and realistic to that expert - another animal :D

GHD

[LionDancer]

I would have loved to seen the dogs cower from your Lions...what a sight that must have been! I agree with what you say GHD.... the Lion must be played as lifelike as possible... the added uncertain factors when playing without the pre-set jongs truly challange the lion dancers' skills. But it is true as Kung Lek says, that if I were to look at the evolution of the 'freestyle' lion dancing, the players have progressed tremendously in terms of lifelike movements in their Lion playing. It is a tribute to their Sifu/teachers and their dedicated training... may it be that this freestyle form will eventually evolve to incorporate the martial arts? If this is the case, it is as you stated earlier, "with the skills and technques of the martial arts which have given rise to lion dance as we know it today", then one can say that the fate of Lion Dancing is truly circular and will never disappear..... some theory huh?

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[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by LionDancer
I would have loved to seen the dogs cower from your But it is true as Kung Lek says, that if I were to look at the evolution of the 'freestyle' lion dancing, the players have progressed tremendously in terms of lifelike movements in their Lion playing.

Just to clairify and be accurate:

If you look at my above post you will see it was I who said that "But the jong competitions of late are bringing life to the movements much more than they have done in the past". Whereas KL said "But I also like the non-kungfu lion dancers too and their various forms of expression with the puppet".

GHD

[TenTigers]

When my students ask me what kind of suplementary training can they do to improve their Gung-Fu, I tell them Lion Dance.
Then they roll their eyes and say, "No, really." Like they were hoping I'd have them lifting water jugs, or jumping out of holes with weights or something out of "36 Chamber" nope.
Lion Dance develops stamina, stances, back . shoulders, waist, and faht-ging. Every move in our lion dance is extracted from the forms. The three star walk we do is the footwork for kay-lin bo and butterfly palms and develops power throuought the movement. The ability to snap the head side to side during the high walk develops short power in punches, etc. The horse is everything. Too many people hold the horse too high and you can see the upper body showing, but with a low horse, all you see is from the knees down-a lion with feet, not a guy holding a paper mache' head and jumping around. The lion becomes more lifelike, and the illusion is maintained. The stance changes are leg attacks, brushing the beard uses crescent kicks from a crane stance=balance especially when standing on a chair or table, etc.
I do like the malaysian style, but I'd like to develop it in our school while still maintaining Gung-Fu technique.
ok, that being said...here's the big $24,ooo question:
How do you get students to WANT to Lion Dance? How do you get them to devote time to dancing for your school during New Year at resteraunts? I personally was totally devoted to my Sifu and di everything in my powwer to help his school. But I am one of the few. One of my loyal Chinese students says that it is a Chinese attitude and that most gwailo students are not that devoted or loyal, as they look at the school like a health club. any ideas?

[LionDancer]

GHD... pls accept my humble apologies. In my haste I have erred in my response. But I would still have loved to see dogs cowering from your Lions! BTW do you think my theory has any merit to it?

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[Gold Horse Dragon]

LDR...no offense taken...just wanted to clairify :)
To answer your question...I think that to do martial art type stances other than the crane would be difficult on the competition type jongs. What I have mostly seen is jump, jump, jump and more jump...not really like the lion should move in LD, but it fits with the jongs configuration. I understand that now they are attaching some bridges to the jongs, so it is starting to become like the traditional competitions in the 80's, but I do not think it will ever get there. If they do a floor routine prior to and/or after the jongs, then I think they can bring in the martial art movements...but will they want to spend the time on the stances and power generation to make it work?

TT...I agree with your post and think it was very good except for the gw**** thing. We do not call Asians Ch**** on this form because it is racist...so is Gw**** racist to Non-Chinese. I do not agree with your Chinese friends assessement...I have had numerous Chinese students in my Kwoon and they are no different in loyalty or interest or devotion to the Sifu, Kwoon and Art than Non-Chinese students.
As far as getting your students interested...let them watch and see the benefit the students get from LD and how much fun they have...as well as getting some perks such as a meal at New Years or treats after any Lion Dance. That might get them interested enough, but the bottom line is they have to want to do it because they enjoy it! :)

GHD

[bodhitree]

I just started a lion dancing class a couple weeks ago, I really enjoy it and I've learned a lot about the gongfu I've been practicing from it. The teacher teaches gongfu in class also, and there is no seperation. Like I said, i'm a fresh beginner, but they seem to go together like George bush and stupidity!

Heres a link to the school
www.steel-dragon.org
not to much info there yet.

[David Jamieson]

they seem to go together like George bush and stupidity! LOL

"you got George bush in my stupid!!!!"

"you got stupid in my george Bush!!!!"

"mmm, chocolatey"

"mmmm, peanutty"

"mmmmm...stupid" :D

*with apologies to reeses for stealing their advertising theme

[LionDancer]

Hey Bodhitree.... nice front page you've got there.....

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[bodhitree]

Its not mine, its my teachers.

[Fen]

Hi LionDancer

Sorry for the OT. But Wen aka Wushu Chik has posted to you in the Lion Dance Forum at Fu-Ragz (http://www.team-fu.com)

And again i'm sorry for the OT.

~Jason

P.s. Good post!:)

[LionDancer]

Thks TOW....will look for Wushu Chik....

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