Quest about korean TJMHPM clip

[shaolinarab]

Tainan and others,
I once asked about a Shaolin-do mantis form called Tze Sua Chien-pick and play fist/form. On the Korean mantis site there is a clip on here that looks very similar to our form, especially the beginning. there are some similarlities in the rest of the form, although this one seems to be a more ‘wushu-ized’ version of whatever form pick and play may have derived from (edit:now i know it isn't a wushu version). I was one wondering if someone could please translate the text for me to see what it is called or how it is described.

http://www.mantismartialart.com/demo2.wmv

and if you would like to compare to the beginning of SD’s pick and play, please play this clip:
http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/avi/
and click on 'mantis pick and play.' u may need the divx package, but you shouldn't.

thanks a lot for any comments! :D

note: at this hour the website is not working for some reason, but to see the text under the form link, just remove 'demo2.wmv' from the url, and it's on the right side.

[MantisifuFW]

SHaolinarab,

Good to hear from you again!

It is the Taiji Meihua First Route of Essentials. However I would advise you that the "Wushuized" appearance, if it is in the Shen Fa or method of moving the body and generating energy is not, in my opinion, a result of the influence of Modern Wushu. Instead it is the method of generating short Jing used by practitioners of this style. They are the same line as those on the clip provided by mantis 108, if you note there is the same Shenfa used by those practitioners to the obvious effective degree. If I were to critique his set at all I would say that his stance was not as low as I usually see practitioners of this style but that could be a difference in teachers.

Normally modern Wushu as I know it will have less combat body energy be more clearly stylized for asthetics, and have the necessity of running to gain height for leaps, (I am open to correction by those better educated than I in these matters).

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[RAF]

Shaolinarab:

Here is a clip of Zhang Wei Fu's son, Zhang Maochang (Mark), playing a piece of meihua mantis. The clip is from Qingdao where Zhang Wei Fu is one of the top dogs in Meihua mantis.

Mark is about 13 or 14 in the clip. It will give you point of reference for comparing the performance of the clip you posted.



http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/index.html

First go into: Trips and then to 2002 Qingdao China Kungfu Tournament

Scroll down to the picture with the below caption and click on the clip.

Godson Zhang Maochang playing Praying Mantis at the tournament

[shaolinarab]

sifu cottrell,

thank you for the clarification. i was speaking based upon what i've seen with bung bo. i know how it is done by 7 star folks, and i've seen competition versions in which many of the hand techniques seemed to be 'sloppy' in the sense that the person was focused on speed and fluidness without definition on some of the steps. so i incorrectly took the above form as a competition version.

and i remember tainan saying that in master Wei's babu book the Zhai Yao character for Zhai-essential- was incorrectly written as Play and that the character for Play looks very similar to Essential.

RAF, after looking at the son's clip (which was slower so allowed me to see the individual steps, thanks), i strongly believe that the SD form is related to it. i know the form and can see where the variations come in. do you know zhai yao, RAF? did you take a look at the SD clip i linked to see how it compares? thanks again

[mantis108]

Yeah, the first link is Yilu Zhaiyao which has 4 roads altogether. This verson is pretty "uniformly" done today in mainland. The CCK TCPM version has 2 more roads. The title of the form is, as Sifu Cottrell and others pointed out, known as essentials not pluck and play. Tainan is correct in pointing out that the word "Yao" (important) is very similar to "zha" (play) which is missing one stroke. One stroke and the whole meaning changes. It is not entirely incorrect to say that this form is a competition form because of its "uniformality". I have seen different flavors uses by different Mantis stylists to accent this form which in turn express their styles. The clip in question IMHO does not resemble modern wushu. There is not flamboyant moves nor is there any photo opps posturing. If one understands the applications of the form, he is giving you WYSIWYG a la his style. HK 7* has a different mind set when it comes to form interpretations. It is not a "which is better" type of question. It is just that it is all different.

I can not down load the second link so I could not tell whether there is a relationship between the forms in the links.

Regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

I can't see the clips, but if the beginning of Zhai Yao starts like your form, then it seems all the more likely tht your form is Zhai Yao.

Mantis108,
I asked my shrfu about your Zhai Yao and he said it is first and second Zhai Yao combined.
I myself don't see it, but of course he has made it his life to look at every version of all the Zhai Yao forms, so it seems that a new discovery has been made.

[Oso]

it appears that the censoring software here at KFM is at it again.

in the link to the SD site mantisp ick&play runs together and apparently spi ck is censored. add the letters back in and you'll get it.

or, just remove the form name from the address, leaving '.../avi'
and you get the back door to the files list.

[shaolinarab]

i fixed the link for the shaolin-do site in my first post above. thanks for the comments everyone. tainan, do i understand that you're saying that the zhai yao linked above is based on a combined version of the first two roads, so that the first road alone actually looks slightly different?

also, is zhai yao found in other mantis styles besides meihua and eight step (since it was listed in the babu book)? and are there variations of it in each style?

[B.Tunks]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW

and have the necessity of running to gain height for leaps

[/B]

Hi Sifu Cottrell! Yes, generally any more than two steps taken (or a skip/shuffle followed by two), to leap is a good indicator of performance enhancement. Though sometimes when kids perform, occasionally more leeway is given.
B.T

[Tainan Mantis]

shaolinarab,
I still can not view the video.
All I get is a blank quicktime screen.
I don't know how to fix the prob as my comp says I don't have the right compressor program.

Maybe some other zhai yao people can recognize this form.

Zhai Yao forms are found in Taij, Meihua, Taiji Meihua, 8 Step, 7*, Mimen as well as others.

Shaolin's circa 1930's' book called breaking down the wall, a term found in the oldest of PM manuscripts has 360 zhai yao techniques.
That is interesting since some zhai yao schools say that all the zhai yao forms together have 360 techniques

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
I still can not view the video.
All I get is a blank quicktime screen.
I don't know how to fix the prob as my comp says I don't have the right compressor program.


sorry, evidently you need the divx bundle file which can be downloaded here:
http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/bundle/DivX502Bundle.exe

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
I can't see the clips, but if the beginning of Zhai Yao starts like your form, then it seems all the more likely tht your form is Zhai Yao.

Mantis108,
I asked my shrfu about your Zhai Yao and he said it is first and second Zhai Yao combined.
I myself don't see it, but of course he has made it his life to look at every version of all the Zhai Yao forms, so it seems that a new discovery has been made.

If I compare with Hong Kong 7* the form got techniques from the first and second Ja Yiu / Zhai Yao Form.
The techniques of the second are for me most obvious in that shown form.

Not to mention, that our form looks very different... ;)

[Tainan Mantis]

shaolinarab,
Thanks for going to the trouble of posting that link.
I use an Apple computer and lack the application program to open that bundle file.
So I still can not see your video.

[Tainan Mantis]

I Had a chance to see the Shaolin Do version of Pick and Play.
Unlike most versions this one has 3 roads instead of 4.
The ending of the form is still there, and it is not the LI KunShan version.

I have seen others do the 3 road version and I wonder if it is a little older than some of the 4 road versions.

[Judge Pen]

Nice thread Yazen. I wish I knew enough of PM to constructively contribute to it. The forms look similar and its nice to see people comparing the forms and not automatically assuming its a fraud or a fake. :)