Stupid things 'experts' have told me...

[MonkeySlap Too]

"It is better to learn external arts first, because ki is like a battery, and it does no good to have a battery if you can't hit something with it's juice."

-- As told to me early in my MA training by a 'kenpo master' who obviously new not of which he spoke...

Share your own!

"Size and strength don't matter..."

"you can learn to fight from forms alone...."

"90% of all fights end on the ground..." (This is partly true, as 90% of the people I fight DO end up on the ground ;)

[Water Dragon]

Muay Thai is low level

BJJ is not dangerous

It takes years before you can use Kung Fu

[CrippledAvenger]

"You can't spar until you've put in years and years of training"

"Boxers all fight the same"

"Competetion just teaches you how to play a game."

et cetera.

[lkfmdc]

Somewhat related but not necessarily 100% on point

Muay Thai people who say they will simply parry the side kick, that it will never land...

BJJ people who will "just shoot off the punch" and "take you right down without getting hit"

A kung fu guy who was sure "one palm" and he'd KO anyone

The "Pankration" guy who was sure the regular class would be "too easy" and had to sit out half the class

The guy who "cross trained" and was going to "just enter the San Shou nationals and win"

The same guy who just wanted to spar with the NYKK team to "get ready", then told a non-team member student in the locker room afterwards "they beat the crap out of me, what was that about?"

Oh the memories :)

[Xdr4g0nx]

what is pankration?

[lkfmdc]

it's a made up word for cross training with no real methodolgy at all... sort of like the underwear gnomes of the fighting world

[Xdr4g0nx]

o haha
:D

[rubthebuddha]

the TKD guys across town who made fun of wing chun based solely on the idea that "it looked weird."

the genius who said that turning one shoulder closer to an enemy is better because it hides your targets off to the side (apparently he had never thought that there are targets on someone's back side :confused: )

[Becca]

... Once had a co-worker inform me that TKD was really a Philipino style that Americans stole and gave to the Koreans as an apolagy for starting "that war"...

[Chinwoo-er]

One day, KFM will RULE THE WORLD !!!!!

[rogue]

Rorion Gracie: “One man can’t defeat two.” but then says, "If an inmate refuses to peacefully cooperate with a command and threatens injury to any who approach, the prison guards now form a small squad of officers. " But if one man can't defeat two?...
:rolleyes:

"That sport stuff won't work on the street."

"This sport stuff is all you need on the street".

"When that BJJ fad is over..."

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
sort of like the underwear gnomes of the fighting world LMAO

Cross-hand blocking is the safest way to deal with an overhead knife/stick attack.

If you're blocking a stick with a stick, you should meet it at right angles to force your attacker's energy through the stick and back along his arms. (My ex-kroddy teacher schizzing out... shortly before me shattering my right-angle blocking opponent's stick and ending my strike in his hair... :eek: :cool: . Actually, most of his stuff was quite practical, but his weapons work was scarily Robin-Hood-moviesque.)

One of the best ways to deal with a shoot, and the way aiki people do it, is to step out of the way and use your hand on the back of their head to guide them into the ground. (A kungfu older bro, demonstrating his appalling lack of knowledge of (a) aikido (with his 0 years' exp vs my over 10 at the time), (b) shooting, and (c) real life... with an option on (d) his own style of kungfu... ).

You should use a tan sao against a hook.(Any number of ****wits, presumably with false teeth...!)

Jesus, come to think of it, I've had so much bad advice, I'd better stop before my post needs a new site... anybody had any good advice...?!!! :D

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Mat
... anybody had any good advice...?!!! :D

Stay away from KFM!!!

Pity, I didn't listen to it and now my MA skill and IQ have dropped. :D

[Mr Punch]

Bite an artery out. They will let go. If a ball sack presents itself bite that off as well. (Just gargle a gallon of mouthwash afterwards) Any of the pressure point areas can be bit out as well...I didn't mean hitting pressure points, I meant biting them out. I didn't mean biting, I meant biting out. Grabbing the biggest hunk of flesh in your mouth and doing your best to totally rip it from the body...

against, well, anything really... this is pretty laughable.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha

the genius who said that turning one shoulder closer to an enemy is better because it hides your targets off to the side (apparently he had never thought that there are targets on someone's back side :confused: )


lol. My guess is that that one came from a point fighter.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
it's a made up word for cross training with no real methodolgy at all... sort of like the underwear gnomes of the fighting world

The name actually had merit at one point in time though

[SevenStar]

"When a grappler tries to double leg me, I'll just sidestep out of the way."

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

try this gun defence.

[SevenStar]

Welcome back, dude.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

thanks.

it's good to be back.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

holy **** your almost at 5k posts now. i imagine serpent is up there with you too.

edit: lmao ... he's got over 6k. i need to reclaim my position in top 20.

[Felipe Bido]

"You just have to squeeze the guy's throat...he won't do anything to stop you"

- Some KFM expert

[rubthebuddha]

lol. My guess is that that one came from a point fighter. seven, your guess would involve some sort of flaming night of passion with the correct -- and her sister, the truth.

"my bong sau is strong enough and my root is strong enough to block any kick."

[Vash]

Welcome Back, GDA.

"When someone does an overhead stab with a knife, icepick, whatever, stand directly under it and use the X-Block."

Apparently, this TKD instructor was a member of the xmen at one time.

[jun_erh]

Pankretian is greek grappling. very very old style. There is one guy in particular who has sort of brought it back. It's not bs at all

[Chang Style Novice]

"Long-range kicking is the key to defeating multiple opponents."

"Trap the knife with your belly"(!)

"Bob Dylan wrote all of Jimi Hendrix' songs."

"Windows will be kaput in just a couple of years."

"Cell phones are just a passing fad."

"We'll be in and out of Iraq in just a few weeks."

[X_plosion]

"My kid's karate school is better than your kid's. They gave him a black belt in three months, while your son is still stuck at Green Belt "

"Master the deadly art of Kung Fu in just six easy lessons!"

[chingei]

Originally posted by SevenStar
"When a grappler tries to double leg me, I'll just sidestep out of the way."

wonder how many times that one has been repeated on forums like this...

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

yeah but i could just do this

[Serpent]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
holy **** your almost at 5k posts now. i imagine serpent is up there with you too.

edit: lmao ... he's got over 6k. i need to reclaim my position in top 20.

Yep, 7* will always be my b!tch. You know that. He knows that. Hell, everyone knows that.

Welcome back, GDA.

On-topic:

"When someone tries to stab you, whip off your coat and wrap it around your hand so that you can grab the blade without getting cut."

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Mat

One of the best ways to deal with a shoot, and the way aiki people do it, is to step out of the way and use your hand on the back of their head to guide them into the ground. (A kungfu older bro, demonstrating his appalling lack of knowledge of (a) aikido (with his 0 years' exp vs my over 10 at the time), (b) shooting, and (c) real life... with an option on (d) his own style of kungfu... ).

Slightly off topic - how DOES an aikidoka deal with a shoot? I've asked a couple of friends who do aiki and never got a satisfactory answer.

PS - Welcome back, GDA!

[TAO YIN]

"short power doesn't work."

"a phoenix eye is not good for "REAL fighting."

"pressure points don't work in REAL situations."

"kung fu takes too long to learn how to fight with."

"it won't work if you soy kuil my neck as i go for the shoot."


and so on

:D

[fa_jing]

Many years ago, I had a bright spot come and tell me at the Keystone State games in Pennsylvania that his style, entitled "American Karate," was preferable since it was "American"

[Merryprankster]

"Have 'faith' in your system."

As though FAITH is what I want, rather than empirical knowledge.


And some of my others...


"I'll hit this exact pressure point in the middle of an active knockdown dragout. You'll vomit/let go/go numb/die/look at me like I'm an idiot for trying that and then stomp my guts out, etc."

"I'll just hit you on the back of the neck on your way in if you shoot, rather than pay attention to my balance. It's easy... HEY! How did I wind up on the ground? Sifu said that was supposed to work!"

"What grappler can resist an eyegouge/flesh tear/throat grab/oilcheck, etc....OH CRAP! HE moved his head/body and then did it BACK and he's in a better spot to do it well. How did that happen?!!!"

"I'll just lower my stance and... ummm.... apparently get put on my back when my opponent just turns the corner to take the angle."

"Tit Sa isn't a mewling little snot."

[MonkeySlap Too]

One of my favorites:

"First you cross your legs to protect your groin-then you are ready to defend yourself." - Tom McGee, A Chung Moonie who the former beleivers tend to classify as 'still okay and the 'one knowledgeable guy.'

"You can't stop my shoot without going to the ground."

"All I've got to do is flop into my gaurd, and you are done."

"No one can beat multiple attackers."

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by FatherDog


Slightly off topic - how DOES an aikidoka deal with a shoot? I've asked a couple of friends who do aiki and never got a satisfactory answer.
Answer in ORA.

Welcome back GDA. Where the hell's my beer while your at it?

Fajing, doesn't the name 'Keystone State Games' tell you anything to start with?! Can't believe you *******es named a state after those crazy guys anyway... what, is the capital Harold Lloyd Ville?:groan:

[TAO YIN]

LMAO


I figured my subconscious rhetoric would at least get something out of you Merry Prankster...............or maybe it didn't.

In any event, nice Disraeli quote.


tao

[Leimeng]

~ (Said to anyone that does not get a woody rolling around the ground a la BJJ) Royce will choke you out...
~ Qi is not real....
~ I will just use dim mak on him...
~ Kung fu don't work
~ TKD does not work
~ Karate does not work.
~ The President spent all our money and created the deficit
~ Fighting is bad
~ There is no GOD...
~ You come from Monkeys...
~ White and Jewish American males are the cause of every problem in the world.
~ 'They' are out to get you.

Peace...

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

Flatulo Ergo Sum

[SifuAbel]

"the genius who said that turning one shoulder closer to an enemy is better because it hides your targets off to the side (apparently he had never thought that there are targets on someone's back side "

elaborate on this one, I don't get it.

Why would his backside be faceing the opponent?

as opposed to haveing shoulders square and chest/belly faceing opponent?

[themeecer]

I like the way you think Leimeng. :D

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Where the hell's my beer while your at it?

i'm sorry man .... it took some pleading for them to finally let me back on and i drank it.

[brothernumber9]

anything posted by HKV

[Brad]

"I can use my qi to make you go to the bathroom in your pants"
-old Karatefushu teacher

"I can hypnotise any woman to have sex with you"
-Same teacher shortly before loosing all 100+ of his students :D

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by jun_erh
Pankretian is greek grappling. very very old style. There is one guy in particular who has sort of brought it back. It's not bs at all

Hmm... I think "brought it back" is a bit of a misnomer. Jim Arvanitis (sp?) has synthesized a style from what looks like muay thai, JKD, and freestyle wrestling.

He took inspiration from pankration (based, I'd guess, on his own greek roots). But his modern pankration is not the same thing as the very, very old style you cited. He didn't resurrect it.


Stuart B.

[Black Jack]

Second that Ap,

I think his stuff is a mixture of greco-roman wrestling, folk style wrestling, muay thai and western boxing coupled with the study of pics found on ancient artwork and the power of his old hairdo.

But heck, there is nothing wrong with that:D

[Shaolin-Do]

"You dont need grappling"
"Ground fighting is useless"
"I can just do this and knock you out..."
"You know kung fu? I bet I could still kick your @ss."
(dont hear that very often at all... but have a couple times) :rolleyes:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Second that Ap,

I think his stuff is a mixture of greco-roman wrestling, folk style wrestling, muay thai and western boxing coupled with the study of pics found on ancient artwork and the power of his old hairdo.

But heck, there is nothing wrong with that:D

Nothing at all. :)

To quote the sage Undercover Brother, "You mess with da fro, you gots to go!"

[lkfmdc]

Nothing wrong with mixing some stuff together and calling it a system....

Unless you show stuff wrong and when people point it out, instead of trying to fix it, you insist it's the "real way" that other people don't know

Insist your made up collection of stuff is an original system ONLY YOU inherited..

Insist only people of a certain ethnicity can do it

And finally, subject the public to a hairstyle that frightens women and small children:D

[Tak]

it's a made up word for cross training with no real methodolgy at all... sort of like the underwear gnomes of the fighting world LOL...does the training plan go like this?
1) Create your own fighting system by watching practitioners of various styles play Tekken
2) ?
3) Win tournaments and successfully defend old ladies from multiple armed attackers

On topic:
"You don't need to learn all that twisty stuff."
"Bruce Lee was the greatest martial artist who ever lived."

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!! @ the Tom Mcgee comment!!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by apoweyn


Nothing at all. :)

To quote the sage Undercover Brother, "You mess with da fro, you gots to go!"

I haven't read the replies on the previos page since I last posted, but just by reading this and BJ's quote - you gotta be talking about Arvantis!

[Meat Shake]

The monkey on my back isnt doing his job.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by apoweyn


Hmm... I think "brought it back" is a bit of a misnomer. Jim Arvanitis (sp?) has synthesized a style from what looks like muay thai, JKD, and freestyle wrestling.

He took inspiration from pankration (based, I'd guess, on his own greek roots). But his modern pankration is not the same thing as the very, very old style you cited. He didn't resurrect it.


Stuart B.

I knew it... I knew you had to be talking about arvantis!

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by SevenStar


I haven't read the replies on the previos page since I last posted, but just by reading this and BJ's quote - you gotta be talking about Arvantis!

Either that or Tom Baker has taken up NHB. :D

[rogue]

"the genius who said that turning one shoulder closer to an enemy is better because it hides your targets off to the side (apparently he had never thought that there are targets on someone's back side "

elaborate on this one, I don't get it.

Why would his backside be faceing the opponent?
as opposed to haveing shoulders square and chest/belly faceing opponent? Abel, it's pretty common method for point fighters to hide a legit target by turning their lead shoulder so that the back of their shoulder and lat is exposed. I've sparred with guys who do this and I just hit them in the back. Now there is a method to reduce exposure by turning the hips while leaving the lead shoulder in place. This keeps the hands in a ready position and the lead arm can protect the ribs and doesn't expose the back.

[LeeCasebolt]

Since no one answered FD -


Slightly off topic - how DOES an aikidoka deal with a shoot? I've asked a couple of friends who do aiki and never got a satisfactory answer.

Badly. My best friend's a long-time (10-15 years, depending on how you'd count the training time) aikidoka who had considerable faith in the system. Last summer he and I started training at an MMA gym. His aikido responses, which had been terribly succesful in thwarting my inept takedowns and throws, were just plain terrible at stopping guys with actual wrestling experience in an MMA context.

The theory is to step off line and circle around, taking an arm for lock or throw if it's available. In practice, they simply don't have an appreciation for the sheer suddenness of a good shot, and the upright stance and lack of sprawl made it relatively easy for the shooter to snag an ankle even when he managed to avoid the initial shot.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by LeeCasebolt
The theory is to step off line and circle around, taking an arm for lock or throw if it's available. In practice, they simply don't have an appreciation for the sheer suddenness of a good shot, and the upright stance and lack of sprawl made it relatively easy for the shooter to snag an ankle even when he managed to avoid the initial shot.

I think the bit in bold is the key here above all else.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by apoweyn


Either that or Tom Baker has taken up NHB. :D

Baker by scarf hold :D

[rubthebuddha]

abel -- sorry i didn't answer earlier, but rogue seems to have gotten most of it for me.

i just know people who, particularly due to point-fighting habits, turn one shoulder more than just slightly to hide their front targets, then get ****y when i take their back or even flank them and strike to their back. it took a while before they realized that their whole "it's not legal to hit to the back" argument was useless, since we had agreed that any non-soft-tissue area (no eyes, throat, ears and nads) -- was open season (it was a friendly match, so we kept it that way).

anyhoo, once they realized that certain rules of point fighting weren't practical outside of that specific environment, they squared up and i took their back less and less.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by FatherDog


Baker by scarf hold :D


Tom "Jelly Baby" Baker: "I'd like to thank the Time Lords, Leela, and K-9. I couldn't have done it without you guys! And kids, stay off the drugs. Only losers and Cybermen do drugs."

This piece of blatant geekery brought to you by Dr. Who, longest running scifi show in history. Long live the king.


Stuart B.

[bodhitree]

"try this gun defence."
GDA

Dude right on.

technique is all that is important

Kicking someones legs will surely bring them down

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by LeeCasebolt
Since no one answered FD -


Post 5 posts after FD's -


Originally posted by some twat
Answer in ORA.


:rolleyes:

But otherwise, some valid points. So I've stolen them all. Bwuha. Bwuhaha.

[SifuAbel]

"Insist only people of a certain ethnicity can do it"

Yeah, everybody knows only Cubans have the real deal.


" Abel, it's pretty common method for point fighters to hide a legit target by turning their lead shoulder so that the back of their shoulder and lat is exposed."

This isn't just turning one shoulder closer, this is turning 2/3 the way around, there is a huge differenece.

Which brings me to:

People misrepresenting one thing for another and creating a bias that points to something completely different.


I LOVE Dr. Who!!!!!!!!!!!

[apoweyn]

I LOVE Dr. Who!!!!!!!!!!!

Tom Baker unites us. That's beautiful. *sniffle* :)

[Chang Style Novice]

You guys are d@mn lucky I can't find a good photo of Donald "Ogre" Gibb on the internet.

[SifuAbel]

Tom Baker was the MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chang Style Novice]

Here we go...

[Liokault]

Tom Baker unites us. That's beautiful. *sniffle*

I have met Tom Barker......He was wearing the scarf to.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Here we go...

That's a 'good' picture of Don Gibbs? :)

Well, at least it's not the one of him getting stomped in the head by Bolo Yeung.


Stuart B.

[Chang Style Novice]

A good (ie - attractive) picture of Don Gibb is probably a scientific impossibility. But this one is at least recognizable and large enough to photoshop a word balloon into.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Tom Baker was the MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No question about it.

Followed closely by John Pertwee, in my humble opinion. Hey, the man knows Venusian Aikido. Can you handle that, Royce?!!

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Liokault


I have met Tom Barker......He was wearing the scarf to.

Man. Best I've ever done is meeting Taimak from The Last Dragon. That ain't bad. But Tom Baker is better by far.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
A good (ie - attractive) picture of Don Gibb is probably a scientific impossibility. But this one is at least recognizable and large enough to photoshop a word balloon into.

Agreed. And bonus points for a RotN reference.

[FatherDog]

Actually, when I visited the UK, I went to the Dr. Who Museum, which is in Wales for reasons unclear to me.

http://www.princeton.edu/~moraski2/Scotland/high6/img16.jpg


It was closed, but I was able to buy a talking Dalek for my mother. She keeps it on her desk at work and uses it to shout "EXTERMINATE!" at coworkers.



And Mat did put up an answer on the ORA board, which received no replies since no one reads ORA. :D

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26278

[fa_jing]

Doo woo dooo! Doooo woooo! Dooo doo do woo dooo, dada dooo....dundadadun dadadun, dadoo, dundadadun dadadun, dadoo, dun......Doo woo dooo! Doooo woooo!

ehem....err....

You guys didn't hear that did you??! :o

(walks off grumbling about Daleks, the Tardis, and bending light cones...)

[apoweyn]

LOL

[Serpent]

Tom Baker is the man.



Originally posted by apoweyn


No question about it.

Followed closely by John Pertwee, in my humble opinion. Hey, the man knows Venusian Aikido. Can you handle that, Royce?!!

apoweyn has taken the correct and rubbed a gold sherriff's badge into it's chest plate, thereby asphyxiating it into submission.

Of course, this is assuming that the correct is a CyberMan, which it obviously is. I mean, how could it not be....

Shut up, all o'yas.

[rogue]

My drummer was a ringer for Tom Baker.

Here you go geeks! (http://my.ohio.voyager.net/~abartmes/console.htm)

Leela is still my favorite Warrior Woman! (http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/lot/9501/leela2.jpg)

Leela: 'Discussion is for the wise or the helpless and I am neither.' I love that line. :D

[WannabeWarrior]

*MMA/TMA will enable you to win any street fight.
*bjj is the ultimate sd martial art
(said by prominent brown belt 10 minutes before being chocked out by an untrained bouncer in a public place)
*He's great fighter 'cause he learned to kill people X amount of ways in the military super secret special ss death squad forces.
*God is on our side
*Police rape defense classes work.
*TMA can't defeat a boxer
*no boxer can win against TMA
*Rush Limbaugh is not a hipocrit...he's sick:o

[SevenStar]

Without trying to start a HUGE religious discussion... why would God not be on our side? provided that the 'our' in question is composed fo believers, that is.

[WannabeWarrior]

Well, God is always on every football teams side, country's side no matter how selfish and brutal the actions commited. God also seems to be a big lover of the status quo it would seem by looking back on history.

He was on the side of:
slavers
folks who burnt scientists
various brutal regimes through out history
the guy that hit that 3 pointer at the buzzer
****phobes
racsists such as white supremicists, Zionists, etc.
and so forth.

I of course speak of the Judeo/Muslim/Christian family and their God.

[Serpent]

This "god" of which you speak. Show me some evidence of him.

[rubthebuddha]

after all this conversation about the Tardis and Tom Baker, you dare question the existence of an all-power being?

moron. :mad:

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

god is a cruel child (http://www.theonion.com/onion3726/video_game_character.html)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

but at least he answers the prayers of a small crippled boy. (http://www.theonion.com/onion3622/god_answers_prayers.html)

[cerebus]

Heh, heh! Yeah, many years ago a friend of mine commented that god always answers EVERY prayer directed to him. The only problem is that his usual answer is "Bugger off!" :D . (This obviously falls more under the"Good advice" thread than this one, but I had to comment on those links). T.:p

[cerebus]

Oh and god is probably less like a cruel child and more like "Azathoth", the blind idiot god of H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos (which would be a good symbolic representation of the blind, unthinking forces of nature which resulted in the creation of the universe). T.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by WannabeWarrior
Well, God is always on every football teams side, country's side no matter how selfish and brutal the actions commited. God also seems to be a big lover of the status quo it would seem by looking back on history.

He was on the side of:
slavers
folks who burnt scientists
various brutal regimes through out history
the guy that hit that 3 pointer at the buzzer
****phobes
racsists such as white supremicists, Zionists, etc.
and so forth.

That's exactly the problem with "believers" today. They think that no matter what they do, it's right in His eyes, which simply isn't true. If they understood what they were claiming to believe in, then they would know that.

I of course speak of the Judeo/Muslim/Christian family and their God.

I won't touch this, as that would likely start the huge discussion I mentioned earlier.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Serpent
This "god" of which you speak. Show me some evidence of him.

Why do people think the way they do? Regardless of religion, people know that killing someone is wrong. Where does that come from? Society? Sure. But that society was molded by something. Something inside that let's us know what's right and what isn't. Any idea what that something may be?

[cerebus]

Instinct. You realize that going around killing people will make you a target. The instinct to survive causes one to realize that peace is better than war. T.

[MasterKiller]

You guys need to watch Matrix Reloaded a few times.

The problem is choice....We have free will, and having the ability to choose between believing and not-believing, and action and inaction, creates glitches in the system. Sure, we could all be programs, and simply "do what we were created to do," but that would mean the purpose of our lives was predetermined and that we would simply be following a script. Life is about choice, and the choices we make affect others and the choices they make, which creates and endless string of variables beyond our control.

Be responsible for your own salvation and your own choices. The rest will work itself out in the end.

[apoweyn]

Serpent,


apoweyn has taken the correct and rubbed a gold sherriff's badge into it's chest plate, thereby asphyxiating it into submission.

Of course, this is assuming that the correct is a CyberMan, which it obviously is. I mean, how could it not be....

Shut up, all o'yas.

LOL again. :)



Rogue,

Leela was probably my first celebrity crush. And yes, still queen of the warrior women.

Xena?! Please. :rolleyes:

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar


Why do people think the way they do? Regardless of religion, people know that killing someone is wrong. Where does that come from? Society? Sure. But that society was molded by something. Something inside that let's us know what's right and what isn't. Any idea what that something may be?

The essential human trait of empathy. We know we wouldn't want to be killed, and due to empathy we are able to imagine ourselves in the situation of others, and feel bad to do something to them that we would not want done to us.

When a human being, through abuse or faulty wiring or both, develops without empathy, then we get a sociopath. And they don't 'know' that killing someone is wrong the way the rest of us do.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by cerebus
Instinct. You realize that going around killing people will make you a target. The instinct to survive causes one to realize that peace is better than war. T.

Instinct doesn't tell me that. I could go kill 50 homeless people right now... who cares about them? who would look for me? IMO, man's instinct isn't peace. Man's instinct is war. As babies, we cry when we are p!ssed, we don't laugh. As kids, when another kid angers us, we fight them. we have to be taught to share, taught to be nice.

[fa_jing]

The evidence of the Creator is Creation.

Beyond that, I'll bow out.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Originally posted by FatherDog


The essential human trait of empathy. We know we wouldn't want to be killed, and due to empathy we are able to imagine ourselves in the situation of others, and feel bad to do something to them that we would not want done to us.

When a human being, through abuse or faulty wiring or both, develops without empathy, then we get a sociopath. And they don't 'know' that killing someone is wrong the way the rest of us do.

you saved me much time and thought.

[Meat Shake]

Empathy and morality is taught, is learned. Ones perception of right and wrong more or less comes from their upbringing. If you are taught something for your whole life, thats what you are going to believe. Those who question what they have been taught are few and far between, and those who do something about it are even fewer. War, hate, love, greed, contempt, jealousy, happiness.... All are human nature, part of what makes us man. The ability to control said emotions is what we call behavior, which is learned.
I agree with father dog that empathy is the main thought process that keeps people from killing people... that and knowing and understanding the consequences.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FatherDog


The essential human trait of empathy. We know we wouldn't want to be killed, and due to empathy we are able to imagine ourselves in the situation of others, and feel bad to do something to them that we would not want done to us.

When a human being, through abuse or faulty wiring or both, develops without empathy, then we get a sociopath. And they don't 'know' that killing someone is wrong the way the rest of us do.

agreed, but where does that come from? WHY are we wired to have that empathy?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

agreed, but where does that come from? WHY are we wired to have that empathy?

i think its a natural human trait that developes and is influenced by personal experiences much like arrogance. due to circumstances some people have a lot, a little, or in rare cases none at all.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

.... i guess that doesnt really answer your question though, save to say that we have it just because we do.

[Meat Shake]

it keeps us balanced? The ability to think cognatively is what seperates us from 'animals'. CPA and myself were discussing the other day, that it is strange that man has no natural defense. (I.E. stink spray from a gland near your anus, spikes on your back, armor, ect...) But we have the ability to think, which defeated all natural defenses and made us more or less, 'king of the jungle'.

[Meat Shake]

On the same respsect, many animals seem to be able to identify, and respond to emotions. Those who have dogs should know this to be completely true. When you are sad, the dog will respond in one of several ways... IME, louie will sit and whine in front of you, try crawling into your lap, ect. When you are happy, he knows, and just wants to play. Does this not demonstrate some sort of thought process beyond basic 'kill or be killed' thinking methodology? Doesnt that prove some sort of conception on the dogs part, past instinctive action and thought?
So I kinda made my first response wrong.
:)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Empathy and morality is taught, is learned. Ones perception of right and wrong more or less comes from their upbringing. If you are taught something for your whole life, thats what you are going to believe. Those who question what they have been taught are few and far between, and those who do something about it are even fewer. War, hate, love, greed, contempt, jealousy, happiness.... All are human nature, part of what makes us man. The ability to control said emotions is what we call behavior, which is learned.
I agree with father dog that empathy is the main thought process that keeps people from killing people... that and knowing and understanding the consequences.

yes, your upbringing, but who told your parents to be nice? and who told them? and who told them? and for what reason? What is it that gives humans that compassion? Could it be because you have a soul? could it be a small impression - a likeness you share with a being greater than yourself?

[Meat Shake]

Hmm... Good question.
Man has to have instincts... otherwise back when, man wouldnt have survived. Mesopotanians are one of the earliest documented societies... One of the first to begin codifying laws into a system. Morality I guess has to more or less come from earliest civilization, changes occured through history from religion and war, and other minor influences.
And Like I said... some animals show compassion. That cant really be taught... So it must be an 'instinctive emotion'.
Hmm... Gives me a lot to think about.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
On the same respsect, many animals seem to be able to identify, and respond to emotions. Those who have dogs should know this to be completely true. When you are sad, the dog will respond in one of several ways... IME, louie will sit and whine in front of you, try crawling into your lap, ect. When you are happy, he knows, and just wants to play. Does this not demonstrate some sort of thought process beyond basic 'kill or be killed' thinking methodology? Doesnt that prove some sort of conception on the dogs part, past instinctive action and thought?
So I kinda made my first response wrong.
:)

yes, and dogs are commanded. A tiger in the wild doesn't give a flying d@mn about your sadness. Humans, by natrue are also commanded. Could we not share the emotions of our main commander, in the same way a dog shares ours?

[MasterKiller]

yes, your upbringing, but who told your parents to be nice? and who told them? and who told them? and for what reason? What is it that gives humans that compassion? Could it be because you have a soul? could it be a small impression - a likeness you share with a being greater than yourself? It could be that people who did not empathize with one another did not successfully propagate their species. Empathy for one another forces us to protect others, which, in turn, allows for more people to survive and create children themselves.

There have been many species of ****-sapiens. I doubt all of them empatized with one another to the extent we do.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

What is it that gives humans that compassion?

there is no other logical way if you want to live in a society. you have to live crammed in with other people, you have to work togeather, and you have to rely on eachother. over time people have just found it to make more sense as it does ultimately benifit the self.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

beat me to it mk

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
It could be that people who did not empathize with one another did not successfully propagate their species. Empathy for one another forces us to protect others, which, in turn, allows for more people to survive and create children themselves.

There have been many species of ****-sapiens. I doubt all of them empatized with one another to the extent we do.
I'm sure they didn't - they likely weren't mentally capable. That proves it's not instinct.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity


there is no other logical way if you want to live in a society. you have to live crammed in with other people, you have to work togeather, and you have to rely on eachother. over time people have just found it to make more sense as it does ultimately benifit the self.

as I said earlier, society is a construct created by humans. Humans felt it easier to rely on one another, work together, etc. but WHY? Now we go into the need for fellowship - the new testament talks plent about fellowship.

[MasterKiller]

Chimps have fellowship, as do army ants. I would suggest one has the ability to empathize more than the other, though neither would suggest a direct link to a Spiritual being.

[Meat Shake]

"Humans felt it easier to rely on one another, work together, etc. but WHY?"

Same reason lions have prides, geese have gaggles, birds have flocks, cows have herds.... Safety more than anything, and the ability to operate and function as a group/society ensures that each part will get what it needs to survive, procreate, and thus continue the evolution of said species. Which brings us back to the 'instinct' question.

[Chang Style Novice]

It wouldn't have to be biological evolution that led to our current level of social empathy - in fact I'm pretty sure it wasn't. I think it was more a matter of social evolution, since different societies have different levels of empathy based on different criteria. Most folks on this board would never expect a widow to commit suttee on her late husbands funeral pyre, for example, nor would we consider it appropriate to "ethnically cleanse" our cities and neighborhoods of folks unlike ourselves in religion or ethnicity. Both of these still happen around the globe, however.

Personally, I believe that empathy for others strengthens a society by broadening it and giving it a larger and more diverse population from which to draw assets. In fact, I believe that this philosophy of inclusiveness is responsible in large part for European post-Enlightenment domination of global politics and economics.

[MasterKiller]

I'm sure they didn't - they likely weren't mentally capable. That proves it's not instinct. All it proves is that the ones who did probably empathize more survived. That's all evolution is, really, a weeding out of what works and what doesn't. Babies have a natural instinct, if you pull their arms up and let go quickly, to throw their arms out and away from the body. This instinct probably served people well when babies had the chance of falling out of trees. Those who didn't have it fell through the limbs and were eaten on the ground and didn't live long enough to make more babies, thus ensuring that trait was passed on by those who survived, Eventually, the only people who were living long enough to make babies had this instinct...the others were weeded out.

[Meat Shake]

Hehe... he said weeded.
:rolleyes:

This is actually a really interesting conversation.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar


agreed, but where does that come from? WHY are we wired to have that empathy?

Primates that are empathic are more likely to cooperate with others and work reliably in groups. Since humans and their ancestor primates have few natural weapons or defenses, the ones that operated in groups had great survival advantages, which led to the empathy gene being favorably selected and passed down.

[Chang Style Novice]

Just to repeat - I don't think it's a gene, but a meme. Or put another way, empathy is taught rather than innate.

[fa_jing]

Of course the selection factors for empathy could have occured or begun to occur far up the line from humans.


Don't forget the selection factors for aggression, either - less strong overall but still present.

I don't know how evolution works, but I am reasonable sure that it happens for whatever reason - we've already done this topic on a few other threads.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
"Humans felt it easier to rely on one another, work together, etc. but WHY?"

Same reason lions have prides, geese have gaggles, birds have flocks, cows have herds.... Safety more than anything, and the ability to operate and function as a group/society ensures that each part will get what it needs to survive, procreate, and thus continue the evolution of said species. Which brings us back to the 'instinct' question.

not really, because none of those have anything to do with empathy. knowing right from wrong is not instinct by any means.

[CaptinPickAxe]

My MC's name is Empathy...

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, except that empathy - the ability to relate to the plight of another - is the basis for almost all morality. The golden rule or categorical imperative or whatever you want to call it is based on the idea that others have the same needs, rights, feelings, etc. as you do. Empathy by it's nature creates communities - people, rats, ants, dogs or whatever want and need to be around each other, so they form these social units. The social units expel members that don't fit in - ie: show empathy toward other members. Hence, the community is stronger than the individuals and morality is born as a code of social empathy.

It's not that killing your brother is "wrong" - it's that killing him is bad for your family, town, state, nation, etc.

[Becca]

Originally posted by SevenStar


not really, because none of those have anything to do with empathy. knowing right from wrong is not instinct by any means.

At a basic level, it is. Whether you follow those inborn directives is not. Woves kill pack members who steal meat from pups. So I guess you could say that while knowing right from wrong may be instintive, honesty and morallity are not.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

its funny that i discuss empathy considering ... you know....

<----------------

[rubthebuddha]

:D

GDA -- this comic (http://kirkjerk.com/spacemoose/olympics.gif) has empathy written allllllll over it. ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Becca


At a basic level, it is. Whether you follow those inborn directives is not. Woves kill pack members who steal meat from pups. So I guess you could say that while knowing right from wrong may be instintive, honesty and morallity are not.

nah, that's not morality, it's survival. The older wolves know that the pups are too young to fend for themselves.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

nah, that's not morality, it's survival. The older wolves know that the pups are too young to fend for themselves.

i think that's basically what we're saying. what i'm saying anyway. that morality developed from basic instinct once we decided to to place more value on it. it was instinctual to protect the community, we evolved to consider that others feel the same things we do, and eventually placed value on that consideration and became compassionate and moral.

[MasterKiller]

GDA has swallowed the correct, sent it through his colon, and has sprayed it in a diahreah fashion all over this thread.

[fa_jing]

So what causes sub-atomic particles to behave themselves? There seems to be a remarkable agreement among the particles to interact in a certain way. As far as we know, not a single particle has needed to be reproached or spanked for mis-behavior.

Then again, you can never tell what those pesky sub-atomic particles are doing when you aren't looking!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[MasterKiller]

Who said they are behaving at all? The buddha said that chaos is inherent in all compounded things. The appearance of order is an illusion.

[fa_jing]

The Buddha wasn't a Physicist, bro. I'll take my cup of Tao and a pint of compassion, a liter of No-Mind and move on down the road, thank you.

[MasterKiller]

Name a physicist who claims minute particles behave in perfect unison.

[Merryprankster]

**** brownian motion dude.

[MonkeySlap Too]

So I take it I'm not the only one who thought it was funny when they started talking about 'Heisenberg Compensators" on Star Trek?

[Chang Style Novice]

It's no dumber than the rest of their science.

Which is to say, really fu(king dumb.

[fa_jing]

Brownian Motion:

The effect, being independent of all external factors, is ascribed to the thermal motion of the molecules of the fluid. These molecules are in constant irregular motion with a velocity proportional to the square root of the temperature.


That's a far cry from Chaos. The particles aren't jumping out of the pan, and as noted above, operate under one or more constraints.

MasterKiller straw-manned my argument (actually it was an observation) by saying "particles move in unison." Where did I claim that? I said that they obey laws governing their interaction. Statistical laws, to be more precise.

[dwid]

MasterKiller straw-manned my argument (actually it was an observation) by saying "particles move in unison." Where did I claim that? I said that they obey laws governing their interaction. Statistical laws, to be more precise.

So what is your point? That the apparently ordered behavior of subatomic particles implies some higher power?

Not trying to be an a-s-s, I just don't see how this has any relevance to a discussion about human group behavior.

Please explain.

[MasterKiller]

MasterKiller straw-manned my argument (actually it was an observation) by saying "particles move in unison." Where did I claim that? I said that they obey laws governing their interaction. Statistical laws, to be more precise. Actually, I said behave in unision, which doesn't mean quite the same thing as move, since behaviour doesn't necessarily imply motion.

[fa_jing]

hmm, I didn't really have a point. So I'll make one now. Laws of Physics are thought to be universal, that is to say, they apply equally here as they do in the Crab Nebula or anywhere else. So as far as physical laws are concerned, there is this aspect of Unity throughout the Universe. If you choose to call this a "higher power" or not, it's really up to you.

What does "higher power" mean anyway? More powerful than us? If that's what you mean, then certainly the laws of Physics are more powerful than us.

I'm not claiming that there is or is not something as universal as the laws of Physics. I could share some of my other ideas, but they are pretty nebulous and would not lend themselves to any of you identifying me as a "believer" or "non-believer"

Caught in the cracks again, I guess....

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Actually, I said behave in unision, which doesn't mean quite the same thing as move, since behaviour doesn't necessarily imply motion.

Sub-atomic particles behave uniformly. To say "in unison" doesn't really illustrate the fact that the uniformity is in some cases statistical.

[Becca]

I had nothing better to do than re-read this thread... How on earth did we get to the laws of physics, theology, and behavioral science?!?:confused: :p

[dwid]

Well, the behavior thing seemed a natural progression at the time.

The physics thing was like a curare dart in the neck of the thread. (By which I mean that it was sudden, confusing, somewhat random, and now the thread is slowly dying by paralytic poison.)

:D

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

I just don't see how this has any relevance to a discussion about human group behavior.

better yet i don't see how our discussion has anything to do with stupid things experts have told me.

yes, i know becca beat me to it, but i wanted to say it anyway. i was looking for a hijacked photoshop pic to post earlier and got sidetracked by calls. stupid customers. act like im at work or something.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by dwid
The physics thing was like a curare dart in the neck of the thread. (By which I mean that it was sudden, confusing, somewhat random, and now the thread is slowly dying by paralytic poison.)

:D

LOL.

:D

This is a perfect description of so many threads here!

[MasterKiller]

Empathy is hard-wired into us. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=571&ncid=571&e=5&u=/nm/20031106/hl_nm/brain_empathy_dc_1)