Fook Sau

[Train]

I have seen many lineages do their fook saus and every single single one of them does it differently in their forms and chi sau. How do you guys do it? and why do y'alls do it like that?

[Phil Redmond]

Please scroll to the chi sau section on this link.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/woodchi.asp#chi

[Mckind13]

Hi Train/Phil

Phil I looked at the explanation of the Fuk Sao you have and it looks good. I really like the images as well as the but I do not agree totaly with your description.

The way I explain the detaining hand, is that it has to function in a manner that gloms onto an opponents bridg and helps maintain control of that bridge, It also has to, should an opponent press or strike with the Fuk'd hand, be able to equalize the presure or disperse it in much the sam way Tan energy disperses an attack. Please note that I do not mean Tan Sao just a similar energy.

This may not be the same way every one explains it but it is functional and I can demonstrate it and then quickly have a new student get it to work.

See ya all
David

[Phil Redmond]

Remember, I probably taught the way you are talking about. If you are in a dan chi sau position and your hand is in the fook sau and there is a path leading to you center you have to do some sort of movement to deflect an oncoming straight line attack. If the path leads away from the center you don't. When I chi sau with someone using a fook sau with the path leading the center, ie. hand parallel to the floor, I simply fake a strike because I know they have to move, (usually downwards). I take advantage of this downward push by immediatetly going on top. This is onlyone example. Anyway, since we teach that the fook is patterned after a Fox's paw we keep it like any canine would do while sitting up. Canine's don't hold their paws parallel to the ground. (The Chinese character for Fook is a man with a dog). I appreciate what you are saying but after 30+ years of doing chi sau I prefer the way I do it and I teach my student this way.

[Mckind13]

Phil,

Doing something for 30 years does not mean you are doing it correctly so that is a poor argument.

I do not think you are doing it wrong BTW I am just pointing this out.

In regards to this: Anyway, since we teach that the Fook is patterned after a Fox's paw we keep it like any canine would do while sitting up. Canine's don't hold their paws parallel to the ground. (The Chinese character for Fook is a man with a dog).

---What leads you to believe it is patterned by a fox's paw? I have never heard this expressed this way is it something you added or does it come from your WC Family?

I believe the character is that of a man holding down a dog, thus Fuk is detaining, controlling or subduing.

Finally, I do not point my fingers at the ground nor at the opponent, but at a functional midpoint between the two. The function for me of the relaxed wrist and forward intention relies on the stickiness of my wrists and ability of my forearm to stick, equalize and disperse energy.

Perhaps we do similar things but are using different words.

David

[Phil Redmond]

I never said I was doing it correctly or that anyone else was doing it wrong. Maybe I should have written that I have 30 years experience in chi sau and the way I do it now works better for me than previous methods I have learned. I will add though the way I do it now always works for me. You are correct that the fook character is a man holding/controlling a dog. That's my point exactly. TWC and some others teach that WC is Snake, Crane, and Fox.

[reneritchie]

The way I learned, Tan and Fook are like Yin and Yang. If you understand the qualities of one, you understand the qualities of the other as the match.

Since Fook does not describe a physical position (look a Luk Sao, you have 2 different looking physical positions for fook--one on Tan, one on Bong (unless you choose to differentiate that as Kai)), but an action, I learned a few different major variants.

It is used as the name implies--to tame or subdue the bridge of another.

If Tan sheds from the inside out, uprooting and opening, the Fook constrains from the outside in, collapsing and closing.

If you and a partner stand with one in Tan and the other in Fook, neither of your bridges should be able to move without exposing yourself. If one of you can, the other's position is probably off.

BTW- We use the legend of the snake & crane, so no fox or paws of any kind in our analogies. We also use the Yi Jin idea in all our moves, so like Tan, Fook has specific twisting and turning all its own.

[Phil Redmond]

I can say this for sure. If you hold your hand in a fook sau position with the bottom of your hand parallel to the floor with an opening to the center line you will HAVE to move your arm in order to stop a straight attack from your opponent's tan sau arm in chi sau. Of course this is only chi sau but this is one reason we advocate making a tunnel away from the body. The way I do it the controlling shape of my hand doesn't require me to move in the instance I described above. My position alone will redirect the incoming straight attack from below. It is very simple to test out.
Rene,
Poutine at McDonalds?.....sweeeeet.

[anerlich]

David,

What you said in your first post is pretty much the same principles taught on any TWC school, including Phil's, I'm sure.

Phil can make his work, I can make mine work. I'm sure you can make yours work too.

Making it WORK for thirty years isn't a bad argument. Different people's anatomies and preferences still count for a lot. Celebrate diversity.

[russellsherry]

hi guy'S i agree with anerlick at first when t leart the wong way . sil lim toa the flat, fook sau was taught, then i learnt william"S way of doing thing"S then i met sifu chan:S top student,and he tuaght it a little driffent then i met my sifu randy and now i train his way it does not matter much if the hand postion is raised or not what work"S foryou matter"S peace russellsherry

[Keng Geng]

As with tan sau, fuk sau takes varying shapes/angles.

[Mckind13]

Hello Phil and all the rest of the merry band :P

Thanks for your explanation. Looking at your posts I would say that Anerlich is correct. It sounds like we do it close to if not the same.

There are some fine points I would love to discuss if we ever meet in person.

With thirty years I am positive there are thing you know and have experienced that I have not yet encountered. I appreciate and respect everyone’s experience except when used for an argument. I liked the bit about in my experience.

Thanks much.

Rene, what is the translation of Kai anyway, and would you explain the twisting a little more in regards to the YKS energy in Tan and Fuk.

Thanks

David

[reneritchie]

Phil,

Yeah, Poutine at McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, etc. (for the non Quebecois, Poutine is french fries with gravy and cheese curds, the defacto provincial dish ;)

You can match a Tan with a Fook that is pinky side down, you just have to have developed the Mai Jarn and inside forearm from the twisting, as well as be using the Sao Hung. If you just try to take one element and stick it in another overall approach, it will fail, either way you slice it.

David,

Kai is 'standing', it's a Cho'ism to help differentiate the bridges in Chi Sao.

The twisting turning is difficult to describe, its a way to develop without excess muscular tension. Its *very* similar to what I've seen in some Bagua systems (I think they call it spiral turning). Robert can show you, and probably explain it better as he knows all 'dem fancy words and things.

[Mckind13]

Rene Wrote: The twisting turning is difficult to describe, its a way to develop without excess muscular tension. Its *very* similar to what I've seen in some Bagua systems (I think they call it spiral turning). Robert can show you, and probably explain it better as he knows all 'dem fancy words and things.

Rene, I an sure I have learned this as part of the YKS system Robert teaches. I was just hoping to hear your side as well. I will ask him to cover it in depth next time I see him.

David

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Interesting topic.


The basic way we look at it is Fook subdues with the inner bridge. Just like Tan contacts on the thumb side bridge and Bong connects with the pinky side bridge. These are the basic contact/reference points of the bridge and also whymost call them the 3 Families. The hand shape in Leung Jan's Koo Lo teaching does not point downward but is flat to the ground. We also work the tendons (yi jin type stuff) with all our skills.


See ya,

[Void Boxing]

The fuk sao we use is just a training aid.

You curl your hand around their arm, without tension of course, you push your elbow into the centre so as to get the stick and block the straight path to you - holding this position you apply some forward energy and viola! Fuk sao.:D