Let's Try This Again-Hey San Shou Guys!

[Water Dragon]

Break down the side kick for me, yeah? I asked over on mma.tv but all I got was the Muay Thai guys saying it wasn't good and lkkmdc being silly :p

[ShaolinTiger00]

it isn't good for muay thai.


but it is for san shou.



and lkfmdc is silly.


ummm.. (how do I describe this?) I always think of a Piston. BOOM! the more power - the more you draw your knee across your body and then explode out and then back in and down fast!


follow with a right cross.

[Water Dragon]

Does the leg come out straigjt, like a TMA, or is it more bent, like a Muay Thai back kick?

And how do you deal with it? I doubt I'll be using it in a fight much, but I would like to know how to deal with it. Which menas, When do I use it? What's the point?

[Shaolin-Do]

Depends on what you want... Where its comming from... best bet is to get to the side of it and shoot in...

[lkfmdc]

Lead leg side kick
As the lead knee is raised, the rear foot turns outward and the front hip is thrust forward. The side kick then shoots out in a STRAIGHT line (do not hook it like a round kick). The power comes from the locking of the hip. The buttocks must be tucked in. Also, the locking of the kick keeps the opponent at a distance. The lead leg side kick can be used as a “stop hit” against a rushing opponent or an opponent launching a rear leg kick. The lead leg side kick to the knee can also be used to distract an opponent and set up a clinch.

angle side kick
This is a side kick with your rear leg. Your lead leg steps outward slightly and the kick travels at a 45 degree angle

steal step side kick
The steal step side kick is a method by which the side kick can be used offensively. While in the fighting stance, the rear leg slides forward behind the front leg and the hip is turned to face the opponent. From this position, the knee is raised and the side kick extended.

Now, immediately forget this info and do not distribute it

[Shaolin-Do]

"the kick travels at a 45 degree angle"

To the side or down?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by lkfmdc

steal step side kick
The steal step side kick is a method by which the side kick can be used offensively. While in the fighting stance, the rear leg slides forward behind the front leg and the hip is turned to face the opponent. From this position, the knee is raised and the side kick extended.


This is the one I learned in Muay Thai.

Thanks for da info, Coach.

[Tak]

Lead leg side kick
As the lead knee is raised, the rear foot turns outward and the front hip is thrust forward. The side kick then shoots out in a STRAIGHT line (do not hook it like a round kick). The power comes from the locking of the hip. The buttocks must be tucked in. Also, the locking of the kick keeps the opponent at a distance. The lead leg side kick can be used as a “stop hit” against a rushing opponent or an opponent launching a rear leg kick. The lead leg side kick to the knee can also be used to distract an opponent and set up a clinch.Can also be used offensively in the mid distance if you slide/shuffle your rear leg up just behind the front leg before the kick. Unobtrusive this way too, since your shuffle doesn't look different than any other shuffle as you're moving around.



steal step side kick
The steal step side kick is a method by which the side kick can be used offensively. While in the fighting stance, the rear leg slides forward behind the front leg and the hip is turned to face the opponent. From this position, the knee is raised and the side kick extended. If you have a good steal step you can close a lot of distance very quickly. Plus the footwork comes naturally if you're used to the (chan si chin?) takedown. If you start this one from in too close, though, it's easy to end up off balance.


ummm.. (how do I describe this?) I always think of a Piston. BOOM! the more power - the more you draw your knee across your body and then explode out and then back in and down fast!
Argh, drawing your knee across your body is terrible. It slows the kick way down, telegraphs your intent, and really reduces the power, since this way it only comes from the "pistoning" of the raised leg, and not from the ground and hips. Finally, it tends to lead to poor balance. The foot should begin traveling upward and outward as soon as it leaves the ground, so the path of the foot is really a hyperbolic arc, rather than an up-in-out zigzag.

[norther practitioner]

I've been kind of waiting for this thread to come up.. I have a question for those of you who use this a lot... I've been finding I get more power out of that kick if my planted foot gets turned all the way around (facing away from opponent = 180 degrees from kick). How far around do most of you turn your foot? Where do you find the most power? Is it an individual thing or is it the pure mechanics?

Thanks,

NP

[Tak]

I turn my foot 180 degrees, or nearly so, with all my sidekicks. It helps me align my hips correctly. It also helps with turning/spinning/back kicks, because it's easy to just plant my heel facing the target and keep with my usual form.

I dunno if this is individual or universal.

[Mutant]

boston school fighters have used the side-kick very effectively while fighting matches against muay thai under muay thai rules. they don't fight them with their game, they fight them with ours.
its a bread & butter technique in san shou. yes the kick pistons in & out and support leg turns fully around.

[Golden Arms]

From personal experience: Bringing the kick up in an arc from the ground is prett much asking to have elbows repeatedly driven into the foot you kick with. Chambering and driving in allows you to punish them instead of them punishing your foot.

[SanShou Guru]

Thank you Golden. If you don't chamber the kick you can get jammed by a advancing fighter of the Muay Thai kick block. We train our fighters to think of kicking over a chair with the seat facing away form you. We also use a saw-horse and have people stand with their lead leg almost touching it and make them kick a pole bag over the saw-horse.

Now Tak would say you cannot get power this way and all I will say is this is how Marvin Perry kicks and although I don't know you, he kicks harder then you do. You can see the side kick being used on our web page. Look at the clips of Marvin, Albert Pope and Mike Norman, they use them the most.

[lkfmdc]

- "Now Tak would say you cannot get power this way and all I will say is this is how Marvin Perry kicks and although I don't know you, he kicks harder then you do."

Guru, don't hold back, tell us what you really think :D

[MasterKiller]

We train our fighters to think of kicking over a chair with the seat facing away form you. That's the same way we teach it.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
That's the same way we teach it.

And yet, despite this, it is STILL the correct way to execute the technique :D

Oh, relax, I'm just ribbing you, end of a long day, and weather sucks here in NY right now :(

[Tit Sa]

Wha......you mean Chan tai san actually remembers how to teach you to kick?

[lkfmdc]

Tit Sa, you are a pathetic loser looking for attention. By now EVERYONE here knows you are a joke.

[Tit Sa]

Hey.....buddy......Im surprised you remember me :)

Somethings aren't, "like sifu like student" I guess.

[lkfmdc]

Dude, ANYTIME you want to see what my kicks are like, just let me know

[Tit Sa]

I've seen your kicks before, up at the white crane school. Where Chan tai san taught you.

I guess it is a good thing you learn hapkido in the past because your sifu definately didn't know what he was teaching you.

[Water Dragon]

Tit Sa, we were having a good thread here. How's about a nice cup of STFU?

[Tit Sa]

Nah.....I don't like that cup.....

Perhaps Ross, likes some more cream in his coffee...shall I get the usual for you davy.

[lkfmdc]

Put down the crack pipe Tit Sa, I never trained in the White Crane school and it's been proven here beyond a shadow of a doubt. You might as well talk about how you saw me training when I was on the moon..

You're beyond a loser, you're a fa gg ot and a PU ssy who hides behind his keyboard, like you hid behind your mother's skirt, that was when you weren't dressing in her clothing.

If you ever were even in the same room with me, you'd crap your pants.

I will GLADLY smack the crap out of you any day of the week, three times on Saturdays.

Just post next time you are going to be in NYC dude....

[Tit Sa]

Actually you are right fatty, I did crap my pants from laughing though.

Just like nearly everyone else did during the 1991 chinatown kungfu demo. When you and your goofy team were getting screamed, and CURSED at in chinese, ON STAGE, AND BY YOUR OWN TEACHER.

Are you that out of touch with reality? Didn't you guys feel embarrassed at all?

Now I know how, Koresh, Jim Jones, Hitler....can get hundreds if not thousands of people to live a lie.

[lkfmdc]

Wow, it took you an HOUR to think that up, what a brilliant mind :rolleyes:

Dude, which upset you more, dressing up in your mother's clothing or when you dad and uncle touched your special places?

It's good to act tough from the safety of the keyboard ****.... because you know I'd smack you silly in person

[fa_jing]

Esteemed SanShou peeps:

I have a question that is along the lines of what WD was asking:
What is your opinion of the cross-kick and does it exist in San Shou? Is there a reluctance to use this kick and other kicks aimed at stomping down on the knee? I remember that was one thing my sifu asked us not to do in sparring.

[chingei]

Originally posted by lkfmdc

If you ever were even in the same room with me, you'd crap your pants.


That sounds bad for both...

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Tak
Argh, drawing your knee across your body is terrible. It slows the kick way down, telegraphs your intent, and really reduces the power, since this way it only comes from the "pistoning" of the raised leg, and not from the ground and hips. Finally, it tends to lead to poor balance. The foot should begin traveling upward and outward as soon as it leaves the ground, so the path of the foot is really a hyperbolic arc, rather than an up-in-out zigzag.

Oh lordy! Tak didn't even notice as the correct swiftly bolted from the room, palming off this piece of misinformation as it left.

[Water Dragon]

'nuther ???? my MT coach recommneded throwing the kick with the knee pointing down, kicking with the heel. I played with this, and I kinda like it. What does the San Shou crowd think about knee position on this kick?

[Mutant]

tit sa = funniest troll here in a long time :D :D :D

fa-jing; not sure what a 'cross-kick' is by your definition...probably has a different name in different schools.

in san shou you can't directly attack against a joint, ei. stomp a knee. you can hit a joint from the back or side though. san da in asia i think its legal to attack the joints though, not entirely sure.

oh wait, you said 'esteemed' san shou peeps. never mind then.... hehehe:p

[Suntzu]

stomping out someones knees would not be beneficial to both fighter careers....

[Liokault]

I have been in a san shou contest where the stomping of knees from the front was in the rules. But there was also a rule stating that you may not try to hurt your oponent.....someone trying to cover their ass I feel.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
And yet, despite this, it is STILL the correct way to execute the technique :D Oh, you! :p

I'm supposed to be in the Bronx again this summer. We should be staying for a week, so I'm defintely gonna try to pop in sometime and see what your gym is all about, coach. Maybe I'll bring you a cup of coffee if Tit Sa doesn't get there first.

[lkfmdc]

you are more than welcome to drop by, especially if you bring coffee :D

I am not a master though, so you can not kill me :cool:

[Suntzu]

i heared of attacking the knee of the bent leg being allowed.... but not being allowed to attack a staightened leg...... i've seen sidekicks and 'stomp' kicks delivered to the front of the thigh....

[fa_jing]

To me a cross kick is a 45 degree downward stomping kick with the foot turned out. It could be used effectively to the front of the thigh, especially against the opponent's base leg if he's in the middle of a kick. You can also apply it at punching range, to attack the knee, especially if your hands are tied up with his. If you are behind the opponent, you can kick out his knees from behind.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by fa_jing
To me a cross kick is a 45 degree downward stomping kick with the foot turned out. It could be used effectively to the front of the thigh, especially against the opponent's base leg if he's in the middle of a kick. You can also apply it at punching range, to attack the knee, especially if your hands are tied up with his. If you are behind the opponent, you can kick out his knees from behind.

We call it Dragon Stepping. a la Xing Yi

[Tak]

From personal experience: Bringing the kick up in an arc from the ground is prett much asking to have elbows repeatedly driven into the foot you kick with. Chambering and driving in allows you to punish them instead of them punishing your foot.My experience is the opposite, my reasons being the ones I stated before. Also, I don't know if you understood me about the arc. First, the foot comes mainly up, but slightly out, until it's just underneath the level you want to strike, then it moves mainly outward, still slightly rising, through contact. This, however, is not the same as up, then back, then out.


Thank you Golden. If you don't chamber the kick you can get jammed by a advancing fighter of the Muay Thai kick block. We train our fighters to think of kicking over a chair with the seat facing away form you. We also use a saw-horse and have people stand with their lead leg almost touching it and make them kick a pole bag over the saw-horse.
OK, wtf can't the kick be jammed if you chamber it? You begin to chamber the leg, the opponent advances, jams you, and you're stuck standing there on one leg with nowhere to go.

We train similarly to the sawhorse as well, and we don't have problems. Chambering the leg doesn't get you any height, it just takes time and makes you look like you do TKD. Plus, how are you supposed to chamber the leg on a crossover (not cross-behind/steal step) sidekick? Do you bring the leg all the way around the body to chamber it? For that matter, how do you chamber effectively on the steal step sidekick? The leg is already drawn back as you step; it's pointless to pick the knee way up.


Now Tak would say you cannot get power this way and all I will say is this is how Marvin Perry kicks and although I don't know you, he kicks harder then you do. You can see the side kick being used on our web page. Look at the clips of Marvin, Albert Pope and Mike Norman, they use them the most.Sure, and there are guys that pull buses with their genitalia, but I'm not going to advocate the practice. The question is not whether Marvin Perry kicks harder than I do, the question is which way Marvin Perry could kick harder. Also, Royce will choke you out.

[Tak]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
'nuther ???? my MT coach recommneded throwing the kick with the knee pointing down, kicking with the heel. I played with this, and I kinda like it. What does the San Shou crowd think about knee position on this kick? That's how I tend to throw the back kick (which is essentially a sidekick), as well as sidekicks at some angles. In lots of cases, though, it puts extra torque on the hips, and makes my upper body lean more (for kicks above thigh level), rather than remaining CMA-upright.

Disclaimer: I'm not a member of "the San Shou crowd," and my opinion on sidekick technique is currently in disfavor on this thread.

[SanShou Guru]

Tak if you had said this the first time

"My experience is the opposite, my reasons being the ones I stated before. Also, I don't know if you understood me about the arc. First, the foot comes mainly up, but slightly out, until it's just underneath the level you want to strike, then it moves mainly outward, still slightly rising, through contact. This, however, is not the same as up, then back, then out"

I would have agreed with you. This is mostly how we want the kick to go. We do not want up then chamber then kick. Up and chamber are one move. I thought you were saying out as you come up.

All sidekicks can be jammed but the better the camber the harder it is to jam well. If you chamber well you should be able to throw a lead leg side kick with your hand on their shoulder, that close.

As far as heel up (mule kick), is a strong kick but it tends to leave you out of position to do much else afterwards.

[Tak]

I would have agreed with you. This is mostly how we want the kick to go. We do not want up then chamber then kick. Up and chamber are one move. I thought you were saying out as you come up. I'm saying nearly straight up, maybe a little out. As opposed to up and intentionally drawing the leg and foot way back across the body and turning so that you look like a Scooby Doo[tm] character getting ready to take off running.


All sidekicks can be jammed but the better the camber the harder it is to jam well. If you chamber well you should be able to throw a lead leg side kick with your hand on their shoulder, that close. I would almost never throw one from further (LOL @ blocking far ther) away than that anyway.

[fa_jing]

I think both ways of kicking are valid, and a few more. My Sifu would explain it as "The Chinese like to kick from every angle."