If you don't compete....

[rogue]

Where do non-competitors fit in todays martial arts scene?

[Royal Dragon]

We don't

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by rogue
Where do non-competitors fit in todays martial arts scene?

Hmmm, not sure what you are asking.

AFAIK, the MAJORITY of MA are non-competitors may it be forms or fighting comps.
Neither do I think that the people entering competitions are the best either, the same way with ANY form of competition may it be beauty or whatever.

For me entering/winning competitions does not equal skill or understanding of the material.

There are many "crouching tiger, hidden dragon" Masters and practicioners out there.
;)

Said that I took part in a competition last Sunday, didn't even know that we were going to be judged till 30 min prior to the event.
:eek:

[Starchaser107]

ahh the leather wearing vegetarians.

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, I'm one of those much abused, limp-d!cked, beer gutted, uncommitted, Depends wearing hobbyists.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Well, I'm one of those much abused, limp-d!cked, beer gutted, uncommitted, Depends wearing hobbyists.

:D

[Oso]

I'd forgotten a bit of the addiction till just earlier this month.

you don't have to compete.

there shouldn't be any pressure to compete.

and

no, you can't use your super secret kung fu/karate/shuai jiao/bjj/muay thai/jeet kun do/shaolin do/old school fighting/boy scout staff/fairbain-applegate knife techniqes/tae kwon do/ninjitsu/capoeira/hwarangdo/taichi/bagua/xingyi/chikung/judo/kicheondo/pencjatsilat 'too deadly for competition' moves but screww that shiat.

but, if you want to compete

find a school that competes in a decent venue train with them some and learn the ruleset. then see what you have that can work within that ruleset and see what you can do.

it's really pretty simple, imho.

[CrippledAvenger]

Personally, I have no problem with people who don't wish to compete, and I even acknowledge that some may be decent fighters without having to train the way I do.

However, these same people should respect the fact that I wish to compete and recognize there are benefits as well as disadvantages to my choice of training. I'm sick of hearing that "sport" will not provide any sort of useful feedback and that one interpretation of how past masters must have practiced is the only way to gain the same skills.

If I can be pragmatic and see past the dogma, is it too much to hope for others to do the same?

[Royal Dragon]

Personally, I'd like to compete in the Kuo Shou. I like the rules, and the use of open finger gloves. It's also geared for traditional Kung Fu practiioners. I think the Tai tzu would adapt quite redily to the format. It would also give me a good bench to test my ideas for the system to see if they are plausible or not.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
If I can be pragmatic and see past the dogma, is it too much to hope for others to do the same?

Unfortunately most people get the following shoved down their throats.
"If you don't compete you will NEVER be prepared for ......"
"How do you know it will work if you don't test it in the ring."
etc.

Kinda like the TCMA and MMA discussions on the Net.
;)

Personally, I think that competition can provide a lot for the right people.
Some are very competetive and feel the need to test what they do, may it be work, MA or whatever.

Competition can also be used for setting goals to achieve.

It all depends on the practicioner and how he uses the available tools.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey


Unfortunately most people get the following shoved down their throats.
"If you don't compete you will NEVER be prepared for ......"
"How do you know it will work if you don't test it in the ring."
etc.

Which, essentially is the crux of the whole problem of the "sportive" vs. "Traditional" argument anyway. No-one likes having stuff forced down their throat. What you have to realize, LC, is that the TMAs are just as guilty of this as the MMA types. At the core, I think most (there'll always be some outlying schmucks in any camp) MMA's would readily admit that the venue isn't about proving their particular practice superior, it's about being accountable for the claims you make-- something that most legendary fighters out of Chinese history would tend to agree whole heartedly with. Hell, most challenge fights I head of ended quite non-fatally, so I'm guessing the concept isn't very far removed from tradition in the slightest.


Personally, I think that competition can provide a lot for the right people.
Some are very competetive and feel the need to test what they do, may it be work, MA or whatever.

Competition can also be used for setting goals to achieve.

It all depends on the practicioner and how he uses the available tools.

I still think you're not quite grasping what I mean by competition. It's not really about winning or losing (except to the fans), but for most fighters, figuring out how they can make their training work and work consistantly in as close an approximation to live hand-to-hand combat as humanely possible.

That reason, to figure out how I can adapt to fighting under pressure and against a determined opponent, is why I'm training for the Arnolds. I could care less if I win or lose, but if I can pull just 3 throws off while in pain and under duress, I'll consider myself satisfied.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

CA.

I am not disagreeing.

If you make a claim than you need to back it up.
Personally, I have never heard anybody saying that "what they do is too dangerous", etc.
Maybe the MA scene is different here or I am simply not in touch with that side of it. ;)

I understand what you are saying about competition, hence, my last sentence of using the available tools.

For me there are many ways to test your skill and competition is simply one of them.

[Water Dragon]

Here's te way I see it. If you want to be able to use your art, you must compete for a period of time. Competition does not mean it must be the UFC, or Pride, or Pro San Shou or Muay Thai. It doesn't even have to be in public. You can compete within your own school.

In Shuai Chiao, te ability gained from competition is know as Shuai Kung. It's the ability to pull off your throw against anyone at anytime. It comes from lots and lots of free wrestling.

I think the problem is that a lot of people think they can learn how to fight without fighting. That they can gain a useable grasp of their art without ever facing the risk of a busted lip, a black eye, a broken bone, or a badly bruised ego. This is just not true.

Competition not only provides a venue to gain the Gung Fu of fighting, it gives you a very good gauge of where you stand. I can handle a lot of amateurs, but had my @ss handed to me by a Muay Thai guy a few weeks ago. It let me know how much harder I need to work.

That being said, no one is going to be out there competing their whole life. It's something you do and then move on. If you don;t want to compete, that's cool. Just understand that there will be limitations as to how good you can become.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

WD.

Great post and I fully agree especially with the following:


It doesn't even have to be in public. You can compete within your own school.

Many styles and kwoons hold internal competitions between schools and different branches.

My style lists "San Shou" as an integral part for reaching fighting skill.
We normally only go there after we have reached a good level of Tui Shou skill.

[Water Dragon]

That's cool Bro. If youlike to compete, I'd strongly advise you to check out other schools though. Even if it's just to play. Some of the best things I have learned have been from the Boxing/BJJ/Muay Thai/MMA crowd. It's a lot of fun and you can make some great friends.

[CrippledAvenger]

And by the same token, playing with other schools only helps CMA get recognized and appreciated. I've changed my mind about a lot of my preconceptions of CMAs by playing with and learning some Shuai Chiao, as are some of the other MMA guys after they see WD.

You get much respect by dishing out a good beating and taking yours like a man in my circles, and thus far I've been lucky to find gung fu guys interested in doing those two things.

[Water Dragon]

Awww shucks, it's not me. It's the big

BOOM

sound that you keep making when you hit the mat.

[CrippledAvenger]

:D

The Raise = best recruiting tool ever!

[Ikken Hisatsu]

to be honest I feel that getting in the ring is an integral part of any martial art training. not even so much for developing your techniques (which does come into it but most places bar a lot of moves because they are quite dangerous, so it tends to be just throws/punches/kicks, not learning how to break someones arm on your leg) but to learn what it is like to be in a fight. how to read other people, how to react without just flailing your arms, how to keep control when the adrenalin is pumping- things that simply cannot be taught any other way.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
to be honest I feel that getting in the ring is an integral part of any martial art training. ... things that simply cannot be taught any other way.

Are you talking the ring like in a tournament competition or a good sparring session?

Sparring is a tool that can be applied in a variety of intensity levels and for a range of benefits.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

you know what's sad ... when thinking about possibly competing i worry more about performing in front of a large crowd than facing a skilled opponent. it makes me nervous.

i have been able to perform fine once i got going in other situations, but i dreaded it most of the day. wierd coming from someone who is such an attention *****.

i don't really consider where i fall in since i dont compete. when im not sick i train hard, spar hard, and do my best not to be comepletely ignorant of reality. i may compete one day but it's not a real big deal to me. i have no desire to ever be a pro fighter or anything so ill be happy if im always able to kick my own ass from a year ago.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

GDA.

I fully understand your feelings.
On Sunday I did a forms demo in front of about 6000 people and plenty of teachers, granted I was one of 112 people in the group. ;)
Doubt if I could have done it solo.

Personally, I think doing a form publicly is more emotional stress than fighting someone.
OTOH, I think I gained something from having done it.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I have to say Im more worried about the other guy when im competing. I mean, the crowd isnt going to start hitting me (I hope)

As for "competing" I should clarify that as sparring. competing in tournaments is great and all but you dont need a medal to know you're a good fighter.

GDA hit the correct spot on- if you can kick yourselfs arse from a year ago then you're on the right track. hard to measure that though ;)

and yeah i get a bit anxious before I start doing a form as well, but once I start it goes into autopilot.

[Kristoffer]

I also feel more nervous coz of the crowd watching me fight than the guy infront of me. It's different in sparring when everyone is there to fight themself.....

[apoweyn]

For me, it's not necessarily about competition. I've never competed much. Performed abysmally at a couple of open point fighting tournaments. (Never was much good at the point fighting.) And fought in a handful of WEKAF stickfighting tournies in the 90s (Catonsville, MD; Jersey City, NJ; and San Francisco, CA).

To my mind, it's more to do with critical thinking. Nothing we do in practice is ever going to mirror the reality of personal combat (thankfully). But we do try and simulate it to one degree or another. The way we simulate it varies considerably among individuals, schools, and systems. But personally, I think that requires sparring. The more permissive in terms of range of techniques and contact level, the better (within reason).

The advantage of a venue like competition is (in my opinion) simply the level of motivation. Sparring in class can often get very cooperative. People trying to help one another. Or simply not going all out on their mates. Whatever. But in competition, the opponents tend to feel no such obligations. Quite the contrary, they're generally very motivated to maul you. That particular condition is something that I think people should have some exposure to (myself included).

Basically, you can't train every variable at the same time. That would be a fight. You can't train kicking to the knee at full power. You can't train eye pokes at full intensity. Etc. You can train those things at low power and intensity with the right safety equipment. But then, to get some exposure to higher contact and intensity, higher motivation to win, etc., competition is a good way to round out your options.

I'll never be an avid competitor. I'm just not that driven to compete. But in terms of breadth of experience, I believe it'll teach you some things that other methods won't (and vice versa).


Stuart B.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger


Which, essentially is the crux of the whole problem of the "sportive" vs. "Traditional" argument anyway. No-one likes having stuff forced down their throat. What you have to realize, LC, is that the TMAs are just as guilty of this as the MMA types. At the core, I think most (there'll always be some outlying schmucks in any camp) MMA's would readily admit that the venue isn't about proving their particular practice superior, it's about being accountable for the claims you make-- something that most legendary fighters out of Chinese history would tend to agree whole heartedly with. Hell, most challenge fights I head of ended quite non-fatally, so I'm guessing the concept isn't very far removed from tradition in the slightest.



I still think you're not quite grasping what I mean by competition. It's not really about winning or losing (except to the fans), but for most fighters, figuring out how they can make their training work and work consistantly in as close an approximation to live hand-to-hand combat as humanely possible.

That reason, to figure out how I can adapt to fighting under pressure and against a determined opponent, is why I'm training for the Arnolds. I could care less if I win or lose, but if I can pull just 3 throws off while in pain and under duress, I'll consider myself satisfied.

good post.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
Personally, I have never heard anybody saying that "what they do is too dangerous", etc.

I have.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
you know what's sad ... when thinking about possibly competing i worry more about performing in front of a large crowd than facing a skilled opponent. it makes me nervous.


Trust me - once the match starts, you forget they are there until after it's over.

[Chris_McKinley]

I like a lot of the sentiments which have been posted so far. I think it might even reflect a maturity that's happening to the combined MMA/TMA world overall. When NHB style competition first emerged, it was brash, silly, prone to exaggeration and irrational.....AND, it had a point to make. What I see starting to happen is, as the dust settles, people from both camps are starting to calm down their knee-jerk emotional reactions and give thought to what the other side is saying. As a result, some logic is starting to creep through.

Personally, of the hundreds of martial artists I've met in 29 years of practice, I've known only three who could fight with skill who didn't (to my knowledge) compete at some point in their careers. I competed for several years when I was young in partial and then later, full-contact matches, complete with KO's and serious injuries. However, I'd like to introduce something that many will think of as merely a sematic difference. Namely, there is a difference between competing and pressure-testing. A lot of TMA practitioners react with uneasiness to the idea that, if they don't compete, they won't have functional skill. Not always, of course, but sometimes this reaction is not based in the fear of actual contact but rather to the idea of competing to determine a winner and a loser. Like it or not, competition is a prime example of judging oneself by comparison with others rather than against oneself. The ego gratification that this breeds is objectionable to the TMArtist.

The solution is often in reframing how such training is viewed. Instead of competing, which requires a winner and a loser, one can simply pressure-test what they do in full-contact training without regard to points scored or wins and losses. Depending on the intensity of such training, it can often be continued beyond where many competitors stop. That is, you don't fight until one of you wins...you fight until you can make your skills work, or until one or both of you are simply too tired to continue the session. Such training has nothing to do with winning and losing, which are as relevant to real combat as empty, flowery kata. It has to do with calibrating your ability to realistically evaluate your FUNCTIONAL skill, which is often a different animal from your CLINICAL skill.

Pressure-testing can also be done at a very wide range of intensity, unlike competition. Pressure-testing can be done full-out like NHB tourneys, or it can be focused and isolated to develop a single skill within an environment of resistance.

[Water Dragon]

The ego gratification that this breeds is objectionable to the TMArtist.

I don't know about this. In my experience, it's the sport fighting crowd who tend to be humbler. Most of the TMA guys I have met love to talk about how much @ss they can kick. Most of the sports fighters love to talk about who kicked their @ss and how bad they got schooled.

[CrippledAvenger]

WD has tag-teamed the Correct and her equally hot twin sister.

Most fighters are humble outside the ring. However, let us make a distinction between the MMA/sportive fan and the fighter (a distinction that is rendered almost unnecessary through the lack of any sort of competition). Fans can be *******es, granted.

Fans also don't have anything but boasting put on the line, so it's a lot easier for them create a dogmatic party line and toe it like a drunken idiot.

Now, let the discussion continue.

FWIW, I agree with Chris on pressure testing, but I vehemently disagree with the idea that competition breeds ego.

Okay, gotta run. Time to look at mug shots.

[Chris_McKinley]

Originally posted by Water Dragon


I don't know about this. In my experience, it's the sport fighting crowd who tend to be humbler. Most of the TMA guys I have met love to talk about how much @ss they can kick. Most of the sports fighters love to talk about who kicked their @ss and how bad they got schooled.

That simply hasn't been my experience, so no biggie. While I have known bungholes in the TMA who let their egos flap in the open like they'd forgotten to zip their fly, I've met far more, percentage-wise, from arts which are considered part of the modern MMA camp. This most definitely includes even the instructors of these arts. Often, half the class is spent training and half is spent deriding the TMA as useless and silly and talking about how much more badass "we" are for practicing our MMA style.

The worst example IME was a school I visited in Texas in '96 which taught BJJ, Muay Thai and Boxing. I walked in and the students and the instructor, a Gracie brown belt, were engaged in a loud conversation before class about how TMA suck and can't fight, etc. The instructor stopped the denigration long enough to greet me and we arranged for me to participate in an introductory BJJ class. I explained that I was only a TMA guy so not to expect too much. As some MMA places are stereotypically wont to do, these guys started ramping up the intensity to embarrass the new guy. Eventually, the instructor called me over to "show me the difference in how BJJ would respond to how TMA does it". This meant that he intended to rough me up and embarrass me into converting to MMA from whatever I was.

He started out by having me throw a Karate punch (why Karate???) and he tossed me on my face and got the rear naked choke on me from top back. Nice. He says, "that's what we do to traditional Karate...it's bullsh*t". I let him use me as a dummy once more while he did a double leg on me and knocked the wind out of me with the takedown. He then told me, "see...you don't have sh*t...you need to train with us if you want something real". I said it was very impressive and that I could see how a typical Karate guy would be in trouble. He smiled, thinking he had made his point and had me go again...this time he said he'd show me a submission. Anyway, after I choked him out, I hurriedly grabbed my bag and took off, not wanting anymore to do with this kind of crap. His students, fortunately for me, gave me a wide enough berth to get out of there when I said that all I wanted to do was leave.

I realize that this is an extreme example, but only in behavior. The attitude is just as strong at most other MMA schools I've been to.

[Water Dragon]

So your saying you choked out a BJJ Brown Belt? Cool! What was his name/name of school. Or if you don't remember, what city were you in?

[Chris_McKinley]

His name was Grundy or Gandy or something like that. It was in north Dallas area, maybe Richardson area. That's about all I remember about it. The place was in a strip mall on the east side of the highway by a car dealership. Anyway, it was nowhere near as impressive as it sounded. He simply underestimated me and didn't see it coming. However, he also had something similar planned for me as far as I could tell, so I simply took the surprise and got out. Had he known I was anything but his stereotype of a Krotty guy, he most certainly would have dusted me, if my experience with other BJJ browns, even purples, is any measure. I suck at it...I just think it's cool to study.

[Suntzu]

Often, half the class is spent training and half is spent deriding the TMA as useless and silly and talking about how much more badass "we" are for practicing our MMA style. :rolleyes:

[Merryprankster]

There is something a bit more important re: competition that nobody has touched on--we've talked around it, but not right at it.

At its core, fighting is a relationship. It's not necessarily a positive one, but it IS a relationship between two people about WHO BEATS WHO. It IS comparative. It's not about "attaining your potential." It's about winning. It's about who is better that day--perhaps even on any given day. I mean, kick him in the jimmy and run is nice and it's what we all strive for--but some time, you may run into a situation where issuing a beatdown is the only way to go.

If some TMA types don't like that, it's because they bought into a great deal of bull****.

Now, this doesn't mean that you can't do the MA's for some other reason--but if you want to have fighting skill then it's vital to get into "who beats who" at some point. You've got to be exposed to that environment (within reason--no barfights! :)). Sparring often just isn't the same. You really have to have a special set of training partners that can make sparring like a competition without letting ego become involved.

You don't HAVE to compete...but I think the benefits outweigh the negatives.

[Chris_McKinley]

Merryprankster,

RE: "At its core, fighting is a relationship. It's not necessarily a positive one, but it IS a relationship between two people about WHO BEATS WHO. It IS comparative. It's not about "attaining your potential." It's about winning. It's about who is better that day--perhaps even on any given day.". This is only true in a non-lethal combat context. REAL life-or-death combat is not about relationships, self-actualization, or attaining your potential. It isn't about beating somebody. It's about neutralizing the threat, period. If this includes "winning", letting someone know they've been beaten, killing someone, maiming someone, poisoning someone, or whatever, that's fine, but it's merely a consequence of neutralizing the threat. In real combat, fixating on beating someone can get you dead. For military personnel, it's about accomplishing the mission objectives. For civilians, it's about surviving as intact as possible long enough to return to the safety of a normal life.

RE: "I mean, kick him in the jimmy and run is nice and it's what we all strive for--but some time, you may run into a situation where issuing a beatdown is the only way to go.". Absolutely agreed. And of course, even then, it's not about beating somebody. It's about neutralizing the threat. If this can be accomplished by nancying up in a dress and running down the street in high heels, so be it. If it must be accomplished by severing his carotid artery, so be it.

RE: "If some TMA types don't like that, it's because they bought into a great deal of bull****.". Once again, agreed. For years before the UFC came along, I went around claiming that most martial arts, as practiced, were absolute bullsh*t in real combat. They still are, unfortunately.

RE: "...but if you want to have fighting skill then it's vital to get into "who beats who" at some point.". Close, but not quite. It's vital to get into pressure testing your skills until you can successfully use them against full resistance. If this means "beating" someone else in the process, that's fine, but it's secondary.

RE: "You've got to be exposed to that environment (within reason--no barfights! :)).". I more or less agree. I've been in situations that make barfights look like warmup practice.

RE: "Sparring often just isn't the same. You really have to have a special set of training partners that can make sparring like a competition without letting ego become involved.". I agree 100%....if maximizing your functional combat skill is the primary objective, this simply HAS to be done. There is no mystical or osmosis-based substitute.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Here's te way I see it. If you want to be able to use your art, you must compete for a period of time. Competition does not mean it must be the UFC, or Pride, or Pro San Shou or Muay Thai. It doesn't even have to be in public. You can compete within your own school.

I think the problem is that a lot of people think they can learn how to fight without fighting. That they can gain a useable grasp of their art without ever facing the risk of a busted lip, a black eye, a broken bone, or a badly bruised ego. This is just not true.


That being said, no one is going to be out there competing their whole life. It's something you do and then move on. If you don;t want to compete, that's cool. Just understand that there will be limitations as to how good you can become.

Agreed...with but with some clarification...the way I teach free sparring (no equipment, full speed, everything goes except for eye/throat/groin contact...but still targets, just no contact to these areas) is you are not competing against anyone...but you are practising to make the art work for you instead of resorting to a 'brawl'. Your partner is your feedback...it is a learning situation and not a competition. It is an opportunity for the Sifu and the student to find the student's strengths and weaknesses (and to improve on them) in as close to a real streetfighting situation as possible. This is the closest senario to prepare the student for the harsh realities of defending oneself on the street. My Sifu prepared me this way and it works (saved my life on more than one occassion). I continue to teach my students this way. On the otherhand...tournament competition with tag matches, rules such as no head hand strikes, no strikes to the back, groin etc. do not prepare the student for successfully defending themself on the street. Even with the new 'no equipment matches' such as the Gracies promoted, there are rules that put the match into the realm of 'not being prepared for the street' and also favoured the grappler, although it was a lot more realistic than regular tournament competition, however based on priniples...I am not in agreement with the concept of these matches.
Yes there are some techniques which are too dangerous (every art has them) and cannot be used in anything but life and death street self-defense.
The only one a student really has to compete against is himself...to be the best he can be physically, spiritually and mentally and to do so with integrity and honor.

GHD

[rogue]

Some good stuff guys.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon


Agreed...with but with some clarification...the way I teach free sparring (no equipment, full speed, everything goes except for eye/throat/groin contact...but still targets, just no contact to these areas) is you are not competing against anyone...but you are practising to make the art work for you instead of resorting to a 'brawl'. Your partner is your feedback...it is a learning situation and not a competition. It is an opportunity for the Sifu and the student to find the student's strengths and weaknesses (and to improve on them) in as close to a real streetfighting situation as possible. This is the closest senario to prepare the student for the harsh realities of defending oneself on the street. My Sifu prepared me this way and it works (saved my life on more than one occassion). I continue to teach my students this way. On the otherhand...tournament competition with tag matches, rules such as no head hand strikes, no strikes to the back, groin etc. do not prepare the student for successfully defending themself on the street. Even with the new 'no equipment matches' such as the Gracies promoted, there are rules that put the match into the realm of 'not being prepared for the street' and also favoured the grappler, although it was a lot more realistic than regular tournament competition, however based on priniples...I am not in agreement with the concept of these matches.
Yes there are some techniques which are too dangerous (every art has them) and cannot be used in anything but life and death street self-defense.
The only one a student really has to compete against is himself...to be the best he can be physically, spiritually and mentally and to do so with integrity and honor.

GHD

As has been pointed out though, you can't really get the full effect merely from sparring in your school. That is a group of guys that you train with regularly. They tend to cooperate way more than someone from another school, especially in competition. Also, when you train with the same people, you begin to know them, and it makes fighting them somewhat predictable, as you know what to expect from them. This is where you can see high value in competition.

[Serpent]

Or open sparring nights. It doesn't have to be competition.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

They tend to cooperate way more than someone from another school, especially in competition.

that's true, but if it's really as hard core as he says im not cooperating nothin when the dude's about to blast me bare fisted.

i don't really spar like that though. without gloves it's always been considerate to the head even if it's full contact to the body.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon


I don't know about this. In my experience, it's the sport fighting crowd who tend to be humbler. Most of the TMA guys I have met love to talk about how much @ss they can kick. Most of the sports fighters love to talk about who kicked their @ss and how bad they got schooled.

I've had the same experience. It seems to me that the ones who aren't testing themselves are the ones who tend to have ego probs, and that's because they've neve actually put their ego on the line. I've met more TMA than sport fighters who fall into that category.

I've told the story of when I left CMA and started in bjj. The guys at CMA were all "bjj is crap, we grapple too" (even though with the limited judo I had, I could take most of them easily) "boxers just stand there and slug eachother, there's no skill involved", etc. From previous experience with grappling and muay thai, of course I knew those comments were bunk. When I got to bjj, I expected the same thing from the bjj guys, but they were actually eager to see what my CMA was about, then started sharing things from their traditional backgrounds. They acknowledged that there is alot of crap out there, but if you have something that works, then by all means use it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Serpent
Or open sparring nights. It doesn't have to be competition.

open sparring nights are great. I still give competition the edge though, because there's that drive to win, which will make both fighters try that much harder.

[red5angel]

Competing for medals or honors is most certainly not the definition of a good martial practitioner. All the guys claiminig their arts are more then anyone elses because they compete and take medals are as bad as any other artist who claims his art is too deadly to practice in the ring.

The only key is at some point you must test your skill, in the ring, on the mat, in the kwoon/dojo, it doesn't matter to me, just test it and become confident in it.

[Water Dragon]

Personally, I'm hoping to score a big phat trophy for the living room.

[Shaolin-Do]

Of course trophies are great. Nothin like a big shiny piece of metal on the mantle that says "I can kick your weak ass." to all those who visit.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Personally, I'm hoping to score a big phat trophy for the living room.

Actually, I really do look forward to them... but only for my parents' sake. My parents display every trophy they have and mine also. The six foot 1st place sparring trophy sits in the living room, and all the judo medals, grappling trophies, forms, etc. are displayed with my (and my parents') bowling trophies

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel
Competing for medals or honors is most certainly not the definition of a good martial practitioner. All the guys claiminig their arts are more then anyone elses because they compete and take medals are as bad as any other artist who claims his art is too deadly to practice in the ring.

The only key is at some point you must test your skill, in the ring, on the mat, in the kwoon/dojo, it doesn't matter to me, just test it and become confident in it.

Who mentioned medals? If you were responding to me, I said

"open sparring nights are great. I still give competition the edge though, because there's that drive to win, which will make both fighters try that much harder."

it's not because of the medal though, it's because we are in a contest of skill, and I am going to prove that you are not better than me. The medal is merely a by product of that.

[Water Dragon]

lol @ this turning into a trophy thread :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

bah!

Competition is human nature, it is hard coded in our brains to compete and succeed.

In regards to martial arts, it is at points in your training necessary to test what you have in order to learn the truth about yourself. You will NEVER know if you do not test.

Competition venues are one way to test your training and whether the skills you have are valid and applicable martially.

Also, exchanges with fellows are a great way to do this as well.
One does not need to kill their opponent to know they have defeated them. Unless of course you're a samurai, which I sincerely doubt, lol.

In regards to insular competition, as in only facing those in your same school, this actually helps you to understand the art you're being taught. But at more advanced levels, this becomes redundant, the best student acquires and maintains dominance over all others through this process and in effect stops learning from the experience and it becomes mere drudgery and a waste of time.

Time to move out and try the art against completely different elements at this point. There you will find new challenges and will eb able to further refine your art.

It's a martial art afterall isn't it? Not a chess game, not a friendly tag match. Training is not the same as the bitter reality of true combat against an unknown strength. But it certainly does help to refine the skills asssociated with the art so that the art can be used in combat.

Adjustments nee dto be made for some venues, and other venues are what the training revolves around, IE: the rule set.

imo, the best competitive venue for martial arts in the 20th century is vale tudo. especially the early iterations of it. That was as close as you could get to real combat without guns, knives and bludgeoning weapons being pulled on you.

ufc, nhb et al all try to measureup to the early vale tudo model that blew people away when it was first introduced.

the lei Tai matches would have had some similarity to this. Man, that's some dirty business. :D

so, do we need to compete : yes, you need to compete at some point in your training to help you truly understand the fighting applications of what you are learning

do we need to continally compete: no, in fact it is unlikely that you will gain anything from it other than a beating when you are too old and lose strength and power and speed. This doesn't mean you can't pass along what you know to someone else. Let the next generation in to keep the traditions going I guess, or just for the sake of giving the knowledge to others for no reason other than that.

cheers

[red5angel]

7* - Why would you approach your fight night any differently from a competition? Why if you are fighting against someone you aren't giving it your all? Don't get me wrong I can understand at first what you mean but I don't give competition the edge because it has its own set of restrictions and attitudes. For some it can hurt more then help, just look at what karate and TKD have become because of tournemant fighting. This doesn't invalidate competitions as a place to learn and a place to test yourself, it just means that like all training situations, competition isn't the end all to be all.

If you're in it to win then how is it not about the medals and the trophies? Does competition somehow validate your skill in some way that training or fight nights cannot?

[fa_jing]

To me, the *benefit* of competition takes place in three stages: 50% pre-comp training, 20% the fight(s) themselves, and 30% post comp rehash.

When you are training for a comp, you KNOW you're going to fight someone and you know that he or she is training just as hard as you are, if not harder. That causes you to drive yourself much harder in practice than you otherwise would. Now if your life was in danger from non-firearms on a regular basis, you would also train this hard. But most of us don't fall into that catagory.

Obviously you gain "experience points" during your matches and come up with stuff on the fly -

Then you have the post-comp analysis, hopefully you have it on tape, and can verify strengths and weaknesses.

The difference between a comp and friendly inter-school competition, is that I'll still try out stuff on people when it's friendly. But when it comes down to a comp (point-sparring excluded), I'll automatically use ONLY my most reliable techiniques

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
lol @ this turning into a trophy thread :rolleyes:

We're tired of hiding the fact that this is what motivates our training. Thank you, WD for allowing us to expose this.:p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel
7* - Why would you approach your fight night any differently from a competition?

I don't.

For some it can hurt more then help, just look at what karate and TKD have become because of tournemant fighting. This doesn't invalidate competitions as a place to learn and a place to test yourself, it just means that like all training situations, competition isn't the end all to be all.

competition didn't hurt those styles, the promoters did. karate wasn't always point like that...there used to be pretty hard contact. different times, liability, blah, blah blah changed that, not the competition itself.

If you're in it to win then how is it not about the medals and the trophies? Does competition somehow validate your skill in some way that training or fight nights cannot?

sure it does. There's pressure there - audience, etc. it's not about the medals so much as it about beating you. In some cases, there is money at stake, which drives you more. In those instances, then yes it can be about that. Does it validate your skill in a different way? nah. but, IME, there's more pressure in a competition than a fight night, which is why I weight it more.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fa_jing
The difference between a comp and friendly inter-school competition, is that I'll still try out stuff on people when it's friendly. But when it comes down to a comp (point-sparring excluded), I'll automatically use ONLY my most reliable techiniques

key point right there. open nights have a more friendly overtone than a competition.

[Meat Shake]

Dont want to lose face in front of the crowd in a competition as well... Sucks to take a beating in front of 150+ people.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Maybe it's because I started MA in Judo, but I always beleived in the value of some form of sportive activity. It serves as a drill for identifying flaws in your training goals - as long you don't start playing the 'game' invented by the rules.

While I have won more than I have lost, I never collected my trophies or medals - to me the real reward was the insights into training. Fortunately, there are a few records around, so my students know I am not full of BS...

Shuai Chiao has always had a sportive aspect to it. This is perhaps why it is widely respected, because the use of that sportive aspect allows you to develop realistic expectations and skill in real free-fighting, Something you cannot get from more controlled training.

Personally, I am of the opinion that many schools that develop 'amazing' skills do it under the controlled circumstances of the classroom that allow for the perfect set-up to be given to the 'master.' I think this is true of most, but not all Aikido and Taiji schools to cite two good examples. I always go back to that Jim Carrey Karate teacher skit from 'in living color' - stuff cracks me up because it is SO true.

Then in the TMA, you have situations where the teacher isolates himself from challenge. This invites stagnation of skill. While I do not expect every teacher to be a superman - you don't see many boxing coaches climbing in the ring wiith thier protege's - your teacher should have obvious skill and a willingness to play with it. My Shuai Chiao teacher would never fight us - but we never expected him too. A.) He was much older and b.) he is a very, very busy physician - he has no where the training time we have. But his skill was evident in his lessons and in the product he produced - his students are all good fighters - and they compete.

In the MMA - you do have a lot of smack being talked. While there IS some truth to it, it does negatively impact the less well adjusted of the students. I've had to hurt pretty badly some poor whelps who beleived the smack and thought they would have some fun with a TMA guy. It is irresponsible behavior - but with the poor training methodology of most CMA, the tendancy for secrecy,and the unwillingness to take advantage on environments to test those skills against resisting opponents - what do you expect.

If you call yourself 'sifu' - and you have never tested your skill outside of your club - do you really have the 'kung fu' in MA to call yourself that?

If you isolate yourself along ethnic or cultural lines do you not limit your experience? I'll never be a BJJ guy - heck I've got knives - but it is good to know how to fight them. Ground grappling has evolved - remember what Sunb Tzu said "Know your Enemy, and Know Yourself" This means KNOW them, not fantasize about what you'll do to them.

In my fighting prime I sought out the 'top' perceived schools of the day and played against them, with thier rules if need be. If you have Kung Fu, you should not be concerned about playing with a MMA guy. Period. Let me tell you, they are not all Frank Shamrock...

This is a wake up call for all who call themselves 'teacher' or 'coach' or sifu or master. The world today has become like the days of old. Fighters are willing to fight, test thier skills, and learn from each other. If that life was good enough for Chang Tung-Sheng, Wang Xangzhai, and Li Ciun Yi - it is good enough for us.

So go out and live the martial fantasy, instead of just fantasizing about it.

[Water Dragon]

best post ever

[Chris_McKinley]

Monkey Slap,

That was one of the most intellectually honest posts I've ever seen on KFM. It doesn't reactively take sides with either camp. I wish I had more guys like you around to train with.

[MonkeySlap Too]

CM - thanks. Where do you live? I'm in the SF bay area.

[MasterKiller]

Be careful MST, you are close to saying something nice about a person in Oklahoma. Your punishment will surely be swift. ;)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Ah, Oklahoma...you know what comes from Oklahoma...??

Only kidding....besides the second thing from Oklahoma all seem to live here!?!

[Merryprankster]

It's about neutralizing the threat.

This is winning. Winning is contextual.

[Meat Shake]

Only kidding....besides the second thing from Oklahoma all seem to live here!?!

[MasterKiller]

We've got plenty of them here, too. Lots of Army and Air Force bases in OKlahoma, and lots of Don't Ask, Don't Tell going on.

Besides, steer burgers are good.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Maybe it's because I started MA in Judo, but I always beleived in the value of some form of sportive activity. It serves as a drill for identifying flaws in your training goals - as long you don't start playing the 'game' invented by the rules.

While I have won more than I have lost, I never collected my trophies or medals - to me the real reward was the insights into training. Fortunately, there are a few records around, so my students know I am not full of BS...

Shuai Chiao has always had a sportive aspect to it. This is perhaps why it is widely respected, because the use of that sportive aspect allows you to develop realistic expectations and skill in real free-fighting, Something you cannot get from more controlled training.

Personally, I am of the opinion that many schools that develop 'amazing' skills do it under the controlled circumstances of the classroom that allow for the perfect set-up to be given to the 'master.' I think this is true of most, but not all Aikido and Taiji schools to cite two good examples. I always go back to that Jim Carrey Karate teacher skit from 'in living color' - stuff cracks me up because it is SO true.

Then in the TMA, you have situations where the teacher isolates himself from challenge. This invites stagnation of skill. While I do not expect every teacher to be a superman - you don't see many boxing coaches climbing in the ring wiith thier protege's - your teacher should have obvious skill and a willingness to play with it. My Shuai Chiao teacher would never fight us - but we never expected him too. A.) He was much older and b.) he is a very, very busy physician - he has no where the training time we have. But his skill was evident in his lessons and in the product he produced - his students are all good fighters - and they compete.

In the MMA - you do have a lot of smack being talked. While there IS some truth to it, it does negatively impact the less well adjusted of the students. I've had to hurt pretty badly some poor whelps who beleived the smack and thought they would have some fun with a TMA guy. It is irresponsible behavior - but with the poor training methodology of most CMA, the tendancy for secrecy,and the unwillingness to take advantage on environments to test those skills against resisting opponents - what do you expect.

If you call yourself 'sifu' - and you have never tested your skill outside of your club - do you really have the 'kung fu' in MA to call yourself that?

If you isolate yourself along ethnic or cultural lines do you not limit your experience? I'll never be a BJJ guy - heck I've got knives - but it is good to know how to fight them. Ground grappling has evolved - remember what Sunb Tzu said "Know your Enemy, and Know Yourself" This means KNOW them, not fantasize about what you'll do to them.

In my fighting prime I sought out the 'top' perceived schools of the day and played against them, with thier rules if need be. If you have Kung Fu, you should not be concerned about playing with a MMA guy. Period. Let me tell you, they are not all Frank Shamrock...

This is a wake up call for all who call themselves 'teacher' or 'coach' or sifu or master. The world today has become like the days of old. Fighters are willing to fight, test thier skills, and learn from each other. If that life was good enough for Chang Tung-Sheng, Wang Xangzhai, and Li Ciun Yi - it is good enough for us.

So go out and live the martial fantasy, instead of just fantasizing about it.

nice.

[fa_jing]

CM - MStoo knows, therefore he need not assume. He is mostly apart from the business aspect of the MA, therefore he need not obfuscate.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
best post ever

Didn't you give this award to sifuabel a few months ago?

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by SevenStar


As has been pointed out though, you can't really get the full effect merely from sparring in your school. That is a group of guys that you train with regularly. They tend to cooperate way more than someone from another school, especially in competition. Also, when you train with the same people, you begin to know them, and it makes fighting them somewhat predictable, as you know what to expect from them. This is where you can see high value in competition.

Has not been my experience...as stated in my post this is the way I have trained and it has stood me fast in the street against someone attempting to do me in with a weapon on more than one occassion...the method has been tested, tried and proved. Remember, in the kwoon you have many brothers whom you will spar against...all types, different approaches, body types, aggression, tactical emphasis etc, etc. As well, your brothers are not static and will be doing different techniques and strategies from one time to the next. Nothing wrong with sparring someone from a different system though...just not necessary to be effective in self-defense on the street. The student can use this method of training for as long as he is in the kwoon and the benefits of training this way will continue for the student...those who say nay are usually those students who due to their own ego, stop learning from the instructions from the Sifu, from the system and it's method(s). Instead the student is stuborn or thinks too much of himself in that 'he knows better than the Sifu and his fellow students' and insists on doing his own thing time and time again even though it does not work too well and he is advised it is not the way to do it. At this point the student is no longer able to learn due to his own mind set and ego. Unless he can overcome this it would be best for him to leave the kwoon and stay away until he can be open to learning.

GHD

[Meat Shake]

Another thing... Your kung fu brothers in the kwoon will train more safely with you, try harder to avoid injury. In competition its not that people dont care (some dont) but care much less wheather you get hurt.

[CaptinPickAxe]

MS,
check your PMs

[fa_jing]

My sifu instructed me to seek out practicioners of other styles and spar them.

To be fair, I studied semi-privately and there weren't too many sparring partners to choose from at our spot- just Sifu, my junior classmate, and my Sifu's friend once or twice.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Cap'n I didn't get your PM - did you send it to MonkeySlap Too or just MonkeySlap? MonkeySlap disapeered a few e-mail addresses ago, which is why I added Too into the mix.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Another thing... Your kung fu brothers in the kwoon will train more safely with you, try harder to avoid injury. In competition its not that people dont care (some dont) but care much less wheather you get hurt.

Yes...but you will always get those one or two fellow students that will want to hurt you...and will take an opportuity to do so and then outwardly be all sorry about it. It is about doing your best and caring about your fellow student so that you pull a punch etc that he missed to block, avoid, trap....the skills and tests are still there regardless of whether or not he tries to hurt you. He is trying to do his best so that you will do your best as his partner.

GHD

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Gold Horse Dragon ..........

those who say nay are usually those students who due to their own ego, stop learning from the instructions from the Sifu, from the system and it's method(s). Instead the student is stuborn or thinks too much of himself in that 'he knows better than the Sifu and his fellow students' and insists on doing his own thing time and time again even though it does not work too well and he is advised it is not the way to do it. At this point the student is no longer able to learn due to his own mind set and ego. Unless he can overcome this it would be best for him to leave the kwoon and stay away until he can be open to learning.

what you say might have some truth to it, but it sounds like you are completely denying the benefits of competitions. are they absolutely necessary to make a good fighter? i'd say probably not, but that doesn't mean you should completely dismiss any possible gain from it. it's like saying push ups might not be necessary to make you a competent fighter so don't bother with them at all.

if you spar half as hard as you say, you will make good fighters, i don't doubt that. but these guys have a point in that no matter how hard core the sparring is you're still going to be more comfortable up against someone you know even if you don't like them. i'm not speaking from experience, but common sense tells me its a whole different ball game when your fighting someone you have never met before and who's personal style you are not familiar with. and im sure it doesn't help that you're doing so in front of a bunch of people, some of whom are counting on you not to embarrass yourself.

i may never enter a single competition and i have no doubt that i can hold my own especially for my level. but i also accept that i could have been a better fighter if i had. maybe i'm off base on the way i think you view them, but that's what i have gotten from your posts in this thread.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity


what you say might have some truth to it, but it sounds like you are completely denying the benefits of competitions. are they absolutely necessary to make a good fighter? i'd say probably not, but that doesn't mean you should completely dismiss any possible gain from it. it's like saying push ups might not be necessary to make you a competent fighter so don't bother with them at all.

if you spar half as hard as you say, you will make good fighters, i don't doubt that. but these guys have a point in that no matter how hard core the sparring is you're still going to be more comfortable up against someone you know even if you don't like them. i'm not speaking from experience, but common sense tells me its a whole different ball game when your fighting someone you have never met before and who's personal style you are not familiar with. and im sure it doesn't help that you're doing so in front of a bunch of people, some of whom are counting on you not to embarrass yourself.

i may never enter a single competition and i have no doubt that i can hold my own especially for my level. but i also accept that i could have been a better fighter if i had. maybe i'm off base on the way i think you view them, but that's what i have gotten from your posts in this thread.

Yes you are off base :D ...I did not say there would be nothing gained...just said it is not necessary to be highly effective in street self-defense - just like push ups will not make you effective on the street :) but they will give you somewhat stronger arms and bigger pecs :D
As you said you are not speaking from experience whereas I am. But I appreciate you view.
I agree with you that mind set is very important - but this can be gained totally in the kwoon if the teaching method is proper.
To recap: yes sparring others outside the club will give you experience with different styles, techniques etc. - but this can also be gained just in the kwoon as well....'thats all folks'.

GHD

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

As you said you are not speaking from experience whereas I am.

if you have done competitions and still feel the same way then i respect your opinion more.