what do you guys think????

[barkatthemoon]

Every Chinese teacher I meet has laughed at the idea of a of student starting 'internal' martial arts before well grounded in a 'external' system. I acknowledge that this is how they were trained and trained to think..... but what do you guys think????

(I'm posting this here because I've already heard many opinions from shaolin people.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

IMO, you are better off having done an external art first.

OTOH, it also really depends on your teacher.

[GLW]

In almost 30 years, I have never met a person that can USE Taijiquan that has NOT done another External style before learning Taijiquan....

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It is mostly dependent on the quality of the instructor and the dedication of the student.. I have trained several students that placed well in push-hands (restricted step and moving), and that are competent san shou players.. though, i do agree that some external training makes it easier to grasp the Martial "intent".. it sometimes makes it difficult to break undesirable habits..

I do believe that Taiji is, by itself, a complete and effective Martial Art.. too few explore its potential, though.. i have even found that Taiji principles work well when the play goes to the ground.. the "mantra" we use is.. "relax and return to center", all things flow from the center..

Be Well...

[Ray Pina]

Have learned sticking and trapping before meeting my present master has made things a lot easier. Those things are understood, a given, so the focus is on power, how to get it, where it comes from.

On the other hand, the actual movements, the external aspect of the art, is also more refined and what I would consider to be of a higher level.

[The Willow Sword]

or some purely external martial art and then go to the internal.
those teachers that you say laugh about it make me laugh at THEM:rolleyes:

You must remember that in internal martial arts you are not just sitting or standing there. THERE IS the external part to it.

Tai chi is an internal art but you have external movements that are designed for self defense and fighting(teachers that dont teach this are just teaching you a new age form of interpretive dance) with the exception of the eldery who use tai chi to keep thier bones and joints in order.

Pa kua is an internal martial art YET there are external movements that are quite effective in fighting and self defense.

Xingyi is an internal art and you see how external the movements are, i mean it is a boxing style.

i laugh at those who say that you HAVE to start on the external road and then work to an internal one. heres a better idea
why not start within and work your way OUT to the external?
its what we do in the internal martial arts all the time.

TWS

[bamboo_ leaf]

Taiji starts out much as any other art developing the body, the practice itself wont be really internal work until a lot of hard work is put in developing the outer frame, the internal aspects will come of itself with proper practice and a good teacher to help lead you to it.

Playing something called internal doesn’t make your practice internal. There are many aspects that must be developed before your practice can really be called that.

Bringing a view point from another practice IMO will not help the development and in fact my actually block it, as you may always be comparing what your working on against known experiences instead of allowing new ones to develop. Many teachers wont teach you because its to much trouble changing habits that have been ingrained. This is also true of people who learn different taiji styles.

Learning taiji is a process of letting go not adding to, I have met many who after playing a hard style just couldn’t or wouldn’t let go of what they had learnd, for them the door was closed.

Like any art, not every one is suited or as the ability to reach the higher levels of the art, its important that one really knows what one wants and expects and chooses a way that fits them best.
nothing is better only differnt, leading in differnt directions.

[scotty1]

So true Bamboo_Leaf. It feels like that to me as a beginner anyway. At the moment, apart from just trying to stay relaxed, there are no internal aspects to my training at all.

Just trying to move in the right way. Which is pretty external.

Once I can move in the right way, and start the internal training, then I can imagine the results. :) :cool:

[barkatthemoon]

I've been studing southern chinese m.a. for three years or so, with a year or so up in atlanta under Allen Pittman with the ba gua, and the general feedback from you guys is what he expressed as well.... but the chinese teachers tend to laugh and I'm just courious weither you guys interpertate that as tradition or what?

thanks to all:D

[Ray Pina]

Some people can skip a few grades and go right to college. Others need grade school, HS then college. Depends on each case, but some internal teachers have a prerequisite. At our school: you must have four arms.

[MusicalGirevik]

I asked my Bagua teacher a similar question about prerequisites for studying Bagua. The most time I ever put into a previous MA was 2 years in Arnis. The rest of my MA time was just trying different styles.

My teacher's answer was that there is a foundation, specific to Bagua, that must be laid no matter what the student's background is. We all have to learn circle-walking, the basic hand techniques, the qigong, etc.

I have only been to 3 classes so far in Bagua, so I cannot claim I am doing so great at Bagua without a strong external MA foundation. My approach is not to worry about it and just do the work, day in, day out and keep going to class.

-MG