KFO Conundrum

[Merryprankster]

If 99% of the Kung Fu taught out there is crap, how is it that ALL the posters here are from schools in the other 1%

:D

[Suntzu]

:D ...... but u are going to get alot of these....:rolleyes: ......

:D

[MasterKiller]

For the same reason every MMA thinks they could be Tito if they would put down their cheetos long enough to train.

[Musicalkatachmp]

99% of what's taught IS crap. I am in the 1%. Everyone else on here is WRONG. I have the diploma to prove it. Oh wait, it didn't come in the mail yet, I'll get back to you next week.

[Suntzu]

LOL @ MKC.....
For the same reason every MMA thinks they could be Tito if they would put down their cheetos long enough to train. *puts cookies away*:eek:

[Merryprankster]

Who the hell wants to be Tito?

[Water Dragon]

I'm not sure if I'm in the 99 % or the 1 %, but you're more than welcome to come play and find out. :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Who the hell wants to be Tito?

good question

[Liokault]

Who the hell wants to be Tito?


Not Merry, he wants to be royce.

[Merryprankster]

Not Merry, he wants to be royce.

I don't think so. Not really my taste in style.

[Starchaser107]

When you call him Merry he sounds like an elf or a hobbit.
:p

"I'm not sure if I'm in the 99 % or the 1 %, but you're more than welcome to come play and find out. "

I like that response.
I feel similar...but I'd like to add I don't really care about percentals, I enjoy what I do and it's been good 2 me.


btw , I'm sure there are alot of people here like myself that would be more inclined to subscribe to being "outside the box"

[Chang Style Novice]

Who wants to be Tito? Good question. (http://www.titoville.com/)

[Starchaser107]

tito ortiz

i think that's who they're referring to.

[SifuAbel]

Where did this number come from? I never knew kfo had so many mathematicians.

[Water Dragon]

Tito's first cage fight promo (http://www.addictedtopink.com/pictures/P!NK001.jpg)

[Liokault]

When you call him Merry he sounds like an elf or a hobbit.

LOL a hobbit in white jimjams.

[ZhouJiaQuan]

"If 99% of the Kung Fu taught out there is crap, how is it that ALL the posters here are from schools in the other 1%"


A: they just think they do,
ex. how many shaolin-do guys think there good
:p :)

[Oso]

he-he, finally saw the Ortiz-Couture fight the other night.

maybe he'll shut up for a while.

I now have a new hero and some inspiration for my 36 year old self.

btw, I'm with Starchaser on this one.

MP, why the troll? Just curious.

[red5angel]

LOL! Well about 99% of the schools I have been to have been crap. But if you look long enough and hard enough you might come across that 1%.

[SevenStar]

jow ga, how long have you been in va beach?

[Ray Pina]

The ratio of kung fu guys who think they are getting the good stuff compared to the number that actually are is probbaly somehow related to the number of BJJ guys who always point to the UFC when giving their style credence but just roll around on the ground without training striking.;)

[ShaolinTiger00]

you said Conundrum.... huh huh..

[Liokault]

I sais it bfore and I will say it again, Merry Prankster is just a lame troll who cant cut in on BJJ boards so has to come here for attention.;)

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Hmmm, 99 to 1 ratio.

How many thousands of MA schools are out there, quiet a few I would guess.

1% of those teaching good MA, IMHO, isn't too bad a ratio.

How many soccer clubs, gym's boxing halls, etc are out there and what percentage produce competent people?
;)

[Merryprankster]

MP, why the troll? Just curious.

Oh, I wouldn't call it trolling. Having a little fun, but not without a point.

I've seen it written on here a lot that "Some percentage" of CMA is crap but that there's this "other percentage (much smaller) that isn't. And when I say a lot, I mean a lot. It's SO HARD to find good CMA, etc. A common thing to bemoan around here, yeah?

Well, if it's so hard, how is it that every person here seemed to have found the "right stuff?" It's a pretty good question, really.

The answer to this would seem to suggest that either good instruction isn't as hard to find as people want to believe OR, that the people here aren't part of that "1%."

I use the percentages loosely---just to make a point.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Oso
he-he, finally saw the Ortiz-Couture fight the other night.

maybe he'll shut up for a while.

I now have a new hero and some inspiration for my 36 year old self.


Did you cach the interview in Black Belt Novenber Issue? It was actually a bit lame, as it kept refering to the fight as if it hadn't happened yet, but was printed afterwards. But other wise, very good.

[Oso]

Oh, I wouldn't call it trolling. Having a little fun, but not without a point.

I've seen it written on here a lot that "Some percentage" of CMA is crap but that there's this "other percentage (much smaller) that isn't. And when I say a lot, I mean a lot. It's SO HARD to find good CMA, etc. A common thing to bemoan around here, yeah?

Well, if it's so hard, how is it that every person here seemed to have found the "right stuff?" It's a pretty good question, really.

The answer to this would seem to suggest that either good instruction isn't as hard to find as people want to believe OR, that the people here aren't part of that "1%."

I use the percentages loosely---just to make a point.

or

the 99% aren't smart enough to utilize such a good source of ma info as KFM.;)

the only valid test is the fight of course and whether to fight or not has been done to death.

**edit**

btw, I know you always have a point, and ones that always cause me to think or reevaluate my own thoughts...I just hadn't seen you start out the way you did with this one.

[Oso]

becca: no, I don't even go to the magazine stand for ma mags anymore. JAMA and our own benefactor's mag are the only ones I look at and get both in the mail. I just wish both of them came out more often.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
The answer to this would seem to suggest that either good instruction isn't as hard to find as people want to believe OR, that the people here aren't part of that "1%."

Or that alot of people are wrong in their self-assessment. :eek:

[jon]

Becouse a fair percentage of people in kung fu are generaly elitist snobs, who cannot accept the idea that someone may understand something they dont.

Becouse many of the people in kung fu are not interested in actualy aquiring applicable skill but are very interested in 'tricks'.

Becouse more often than not they believe that what they are doing is the 'right' way. Usualy out of compleate ignorence and the inability to accept that someone else may have differing skill sets.

Becouse sadly the cma community is actualy quite a closed little circle and most are not willing to step outside there own school to even watch with an open mind. Let alone actualy train in methods which where not originaly part of there system.

Becouse many people are much happier living a fantasy than looking at what they do objectively.


Of course im learning the real deal and the rest of you plebs are doomed to a life of wasted training - but i try not to harp on it.

[Christopher M]

lol @ "I wonder how they would do against jon's no-tension fu. I bet they'd do REALLY WELL."
- Huang Kai Vun

[KC Elbows]

I can generally tell the people on here who know somethng by their contributions. The others may be in legit schools, but early in their training or not particularly into it, or may be in crappy schools, or whatever. No big thing.

90% of everything is crap. Narrowing this to kung fu is a bit silly, imo, but I know you bjj guys have to proselytize. Thank god your not riding around on bicycles passing out bjj literature door to door in those godawful shorts. "May I interest you in the latest issue of Choketower?" :p

[Brad]

I'd say we have a pretty good/crap ratio here in Columbus as far as CMA teachers go :)

[Christopher M]

They don't do that down there!?

Up here, they're unbearable. I made the mistake of inviting them in once; they seemed so polite and were dressed nice. At first it was pretty basic stuff... you know, "What do you think about fighting?"... "Have you heard about jiujitsu?"... "What kind of answers does your current martial art give you?"

But after a while, their true feelings came out... one of them screamed at me "If you don't study BJJ, when you get in a fight you will get choked out! Do you want that, huh!? Eternity on your back! The mount is only for rollers!!!"

Wow.

I threw holy water on them and they burst into flames.

[Oso]

LOL :D

[KC Elbows]

CM,
Never invite them in. I mean, they're always "have you accepted the gracies into your life?" and "Are you going to the promised ground?" Then you end up getting the whole "Only the chosen one percent or purple belts will know what to do when the ninety percent of fights go to the ground: are you willing to take the risk of being the one of the ninety nine percent caught in that ninety percent chance? Will you be owned, or will you own?"

[jon]

lol i think i actualy miss HKV, that was something slightly endearing about some lunatic screaming ill founded and compleately false information like it was the gospell.

[Serpent]

Somebody probably took him up on one of his challenge offers and now he's dead.

[Serpent]

Somebody probably took him up on one of his challenge offers and now he's dead.

[Ralphie]

I don't think that 99% of kf being taught is crap. KF is a generic term anyway, so stating it as such is incomplete at best. Besides that, many seemingly unimaginative instructors of CMA have tried to adopt an American Krotty like school in order to meet the expectations of the consumer. Good or bad, this has created *many* second generation instructors who have continued to lower certain standards that have killed the spirit of some CMA. No excuse there, just how I see it.

I have a question, can a blue belt BJJ guy fight if there is no gi and the fight doesn't start from the knees? :D I love the idea that at the local bjj/mma gym's are packed with insanely skilled guys training only the most correct methods of fighting. This is a place where you will never see an awkward person who really never advances past a collar choke. You'll never see a soft whimpy guy who never goes to open mat for fear of taking a little punishment, but likes to tell his friends "I do BJJ". Only real techniques that can be tested on a resisting opponent are practiced. You know, like the but t scoot to pull guard move. This real world move, as practiced by bouncers everywhere, would never get you kicked/punched in the knee/nads/ head.

Just in case you didn't know, I respect BJJ/MMA. I just think this conundrum as stated is, well, overstated.

[Merryprankster]

Ralphie,

Nice try, attempting to change this into a style vs. style debate when its just an exercise in critical thinking.

Hyperbole used humorously to make a point...

Problem: According to many here, good CMA is SOOOOOOOO hard to find. Yet, EVERY SINGLE PERSON here thinks they've got the "real deal" when it comes to style and instruction.

Pretty amazing, don't you think? I think it's funny.

It would be like every BJJer saying they train with a Mundial champ who really knows how to transmit the information. It simply can't be true.

(To use an actually good analogy, vice the one you picked, since that's an issue of training focus vice instruction/availability quality. Vale Tudo oriented gyms DON'T train the way you suggested.)

Pick percentages you're more comfortable with. I don't care. I've seen 85%, 90%, 95% and 99% bandied about on this board. YOU may pick whatever you like. Perhaps 70%. Or maybe you believe there are MORE good KF schools than not.

[Musicalkatachmp]

If 99% of the Kung Fu taught out there is crap, how is it that ALL the posters here are from schools in the other 1%

2 words: cognitive dissonance.

I think that is what we can observe in 99% of martial artists. Just like you said, you don't hear many people say "What I am doing is crap" but everyone says I spent years doing crap now I've found the real deal. To some degree, I think we have to allow for the fact that I might want to do something that you are not interested in, and I might think somebody else's style is garbage when it's just what he's looking for. But for the most part: cognitive dissonance.

I paid all this money and spent all this time looking for and training under this great master, This stuff HAS to be good. Otherwise I just wasted a lot of time and money.....PHUG!!!!!!!!!!

[Oso]

Yet, EVERY SINGLE PERSON here thinks they've got the "real deal" when it comes to style and instruction.

I agree with your intent here, MP. But, isn't that just a bit of an exageration?

there are plenty who think that but there certainly are several who don't, more than 1% even.

I think things HAVE changed at least a little in the last couple of years here at KFM. If we continue the grand experiment long enough there will be at least a small core group who are beyond this type of discussion.

or maybe I'm just idealistic.

[fa_jing]

Let's see....in a big city with a Chinatown, like Chicago, there might be 35 Kung Fu schools about 10 of which are good....

But then you go to Oklahoma or Nebraska and most "kung Fu" schools are taught by unqualified instructors....or it's not even real CMA.

But then again, I think that you can practice the Ooga-Buga style, and if you practice it hard enoughyou'll get to be a pretty good fighter....

Yet you can study an established style with an established lineage, a great, skilled teacher, but if the class set-up sucks and it's not geared toward you and not working for you, then you'll still have to look elsewhere.

[Meat Shake]

I enjoy both of my classes. A lot. I feel they are working for me. Im always open to touch hands. I dont really give a flying **** whats working or not for anyone else. Too bad if your teacher/style sucks. Train harder.
"Yeah but if your training the wrong stuff blah blah blah..."
Well you may as well just get in shape and quit *****ing because you never know when you're going to find your kung fu soul mate. ;)
(Right teacher, right style for you)

[Christopher M]

Actually... I don't think good instruction is that hard to find. Regardless of the proportions, I'm sure there's at least some good instruction in any decent city.

The issue I meant to allude to with my tongue-in-cheek reference to self-assessment problems (but which no one seems to be leaning towards) is that the problem is a lack of "playing" with a variety of people; a problem that the more sport-oriented schools have a decent and natural solution to. "Getting the goods" follows naturally from "good self-assessment" which follows naturally from "playing with what you're given." Then "the goods" isn't a matter of lineage, plaques, or funny costumes (or lack thereof), not something you can peer into an empty training hall and see, but simply the approach each individual takes to their art.

[Meat Shake]

Eh, IMO if you're bittching about what other people are doing instead of having intelligent (or stupid) conversation about kung fu or what your favorite beer is, you're spending too much time exploring your feminine side.

[scotty1]

Most people are going to think, and will say, that what they're doing is the real $hit. Only some of them will be right. But that won't stop them saying otherwise.

He!!, most everyone thinks they're a good driver, but the roads are full of idiots.

[apoweyn]

Serpent: HKV is a permanent fixture at the new KFO now. Huang's Academy is his screen name. Personally, I never had a problem with him. But I seem to be in the minority. He already seems to be a controversial figure over there.

Musicalkatachamp: I love you. In a mostly straight way. Cognitive dissonance is the exact phrase I used as well. That and belief preservation.

I don't think the problem is that people think highly of their training though. The problem occurs when we use that sort of reasoning as a substitute for thinking critically about what we do. Watching a standup guy get mauled by a grappler should be cause for standup guys to go, "Huh. How about that. Wonder what I could do about that sort of situation." Instead, we get "Huh. Well that guy must come from a really crappy standup school."

All that said, however, I'll go on record as saying that I've personally attended a neverending stream of lackluster schools and, as a consequence, couldn't outmaneuver a toked-out sloth on the third night of a three-day bender.


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

my school wil beat all of your schools for it is the best and I study the best style. We have secret techniques never before revealed to anyone, until my mastr talked to our long dead style creator in a dream. You cannot beat us.

[Oso]

weak, you can do better than that, I know you can.:)

[fa_jing]

My techniques are so deadly that you can't even use them in a fight - they will rupture the Space-time Continuum and the whole Milky Way Galaxy will be sucked into a wormwhole. Quick, somebody turn on the Heisenberg Compensators!!!

[apoweyn]

Quick, somebody turn on the Heisenberg Compensators!!!


No need, FJ. I stopped wetting the bed months ago.

...

What?

[Tak]

I don't think the issue is one of delusion.

People make their choices based on their opinions, so of course they're going to think their school is best, because if they thought another school was better, they'd have chosen it instead. Ask any guy who just bought a car, and he'll tell you that it's the best car that can be had for the money. Ask any hardcore computer geek what the best distribution of Linux is, and s/he'll explain to you why the one s/he uses (or FreeBSD) is better than all the others. It's the same thing in martial arts. Someone looks around, takes inventory of the different schools available, and chooses the best one. Then, unless/until s/he finds out the school is utter crap, s/he maintains the opinion that his/her school is the best.

Additionally, my school is better than of all yours, and I'll use my deadly hair-grab reversal to teach a lesson to anyone who tries to say otherwise, then grabs my hair just so. No, more like that. No, no, arch the wrist more. There, now I've got you!

[Meat Shake]

Ive got a slightly used flux capacitator if anyone is interested...
And a used but not abused monkey butler.

[apoweyn]

I don't think the issue is one of delusion.

People make their choices based on their opinions, so of course they're going to think their school is best, because if they thought another school was better, they'd have chosen it instead. Ask any guy who just bought a car, and he'll tell you that it's the best car that can be had for the money. Ask any hardcore computer geek what the best distribution of Linux is, and s/he'll explain to you why the one s/he uses (or FreeBSD) is better than all the others. It's the same thing in martial arts. Someone looks around, takes inventory of the different schools available, and chooses the best one. Then, unless/until s/he finds out the school is utter crap, s/he maintains the opinion that his/her school is the best.

If I bought a new car, I'm still going to be able to acknowledge that 1) there are other cars with the same capabilities as mine for a comparable price and 2) there are much better cars than mine for a higher price. Additionally, I could recognize that there are better cars for 1) speed, 2) offroading, 3) transporting a family, etc.

In other words, appreciating your choice in a car doesn't require denigrating the other options available. I don't have to believe I got the "best" car. Only the car I wanted.


Stuart B.

[MasterKiller]

Yeah, but if you spent 5 years fixing up a car, suping up the engine, and turning it into a steet-modified racer, you might openly acknoweldge that other cars are fast, but in the back of your mind you'd always be thinking "I could take them if I had to.";)

[Meat Shake]

I drive a gremlin but I can still kick your ass.





:D

[Tak]

In other words, appreciating your choice in a car doesn't require denigrating the other options available. I don't have to believe I got the "best" car. Only the car I wanted. I agree, but there's a difference between thinking mine is the best and denigrating someone else's. I also agree that different cars can be better for different circumstances, but I'm not about to tell someone, "90% of car trips end up offroad, so the best car for you is a Jeep Wrangler, not a Honda Accord."

I guess I apply the same philosophy to cars/martial arts/whatever that I do to religion: "I don't care if you believe yours is best; just don't waste our time trying to convince me that mine is the worst."

[Tak]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
I drive a gremlin but I can still kick your ass. AMC ruled! The mailman where I used to live in SD drove an AMC ?Eagle?, the 4-wheel drive station-wagonish one, and he'd be out delivering mail out on back roads in 2 ft of snow, when guys with their big, bad pickups and SUVs were stuck in the ditches or afraid to leave their driveways.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Yeah, but if you spent 5 years fixing up a car, suping up the engine, and turning it into a steet-modified racer, you might openly acknoweldge that other cars are fast, but in the back of your mind you'd always be thinking "I could take them if I had to.";)

That's actually a good point. :)

Though however many times I say "I could take 'em", it doesn't change the truth of whether I could or no. Right?

Just like I could say that stylist X is a style hopper with no lineage. And that wouldn't necessarily mean that I could take him. Regardless of how fervently I want to believe (or do believe) that I could.

Or something. :)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Tak
I agree, but there's a difference between thinking mine is the best and denigrating someone else's. I also agree that different cars can be better for different circumstances, but I'm not about to tell someone, "90% of car trips end up offroad, so the best car for you is a Jeep Wrangler, not a Honda Accord."

I guess I apply the same philosophy to cars/martial arts/whatever that I do to religion: "I don't care if you believe yours is best; just don't waste our time trying to convince me that mine is the worst."

Word.

[Meat Shake]

Theres also a pretty big difference in realizing that your stuff works, and thinking its the best.

[MasterKiller]

That's actually a good point.

Though however many times I say "I could take 'em", it doesn't change the truth of whether I could or no. Right?

Just like I could say that stylist X is a style hopper with no lineage. And that wouldn't necessarily mean that I could take him. Regardless of how fervently I want to believe (or do believe) that I could.

Or something. Let's say you suped your car up, and it's ready to go, but Johnny Law is cracking down on street racing. So, you have no venue to test your car unless you want to go to a race track, which requires restrictor plates on the carbuerator, and has limits to the amount of modifications you are allowed to make to your engine in order to provide a level playing field and protect the drivers from serious injury.

You can either sit out and refuse to restrict your car, or you can allow for the rules limitations and race competitvely.

Either way, you are never going to feel like you have opened it up. If you never race, people will talk smack about your car because theynever see it perform. If you do race, and you lose, they will not take into consideration the fact that you had to modify your car in order to compete. Your screwed either way.

Now, I suppose you could find some venue which would allow you to race your car the way you would like, but those venues are usually occupied by professional racers with unlimited time to work on their cars. If you're just some part-time mechanic with a limited budget who only wanted a cool car with some decent speed, you wouldn't stand a chance against those guys, and you know it.


Better to just play Madden 2004 10 hours a day, and forget this MA tomfoolery altogether.

[Tak]

Better to just play Madden 2004 10 hours a day, and forget this MA tomfoolery altogether. What about Dead or Alive? Bounce.....bounce.....bounce.....

[SevenStar]

You're not screwed either way - you're not racing to prove anything to them... it's a personal thing. And, if you race and lose, they will have more respect for you than they would had you not raced at all.

[apoweyn]

This car racing analogy is oddly brilliant. Usually, I'm not a big fan of analogy (even though I slipped into them myself). But this kinda works. :)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tak
I don't think the issue is one of delusion.

People make their choices based on their opinions, so of course they're going to think their school is best, because if they thought another school was better, they'd have chosen it instead. Ask any guy who just bought a car, and he'll tell you that it's the best car that can be had for the money. Ask any hardcore computer geek what the best distribution of Linux is, and s/he'll explain to you why the one s/he uses (or FreeBSD) is better than all the others. It's the same thing in martial arts. Someone looks around, takes inventory of the different schools available, and chooses the best one. Then, unless/until s/he finds out the school is utter crap, s/he maintains the opinion that his/her school is the best.

Additionally, my school is better than of all yours, and I'll use my deadly hair-grab reversal to teach a lesson to anyone who tries to say otherwise, then grabs my hair just so. No, more like that. No, no, arch the wrist more. There, now I've got you!

They pick the best one FOR THEM - not necessarily the best one.

[MasterKiller]

And, if you race and lose, they will have more respect for you than they would had you not raced at all.They would respect you for giving it a go, probably, but they'd still spout off about how your car sucks.

[Musicalkatachmp]

These are all very plausible theories listed here, and I believe most of them to be true in a lot of cases. But that's all they are...theories...the people we are talking about, the one's who think they know everything and talk a lot of trash generally don't train very hard. We can't understand them if we do train hard. It's almost like we're two different kinds of animals. How do I know? Because I use to sit on my @$$ all day reading black belt and talking about why ninjutsu was better than kung fu. I don't remember how my mind worked back then, can't understant why I acted the way I did. Now that I do train a little bit I am a completely different person. Training does that.


I love you.

Yes


In a mostly straight way.

Darn!

[Suntzu]

:D

[apoweyn]

Sorry mate.

Long distance relationships rarely work out. And Baltimore is like... an hour away.

[Meat Shake]

"And, if you race and lose, they will have more respect for you than they would had you not raced at all."

Not always so... in fighting terms in particular... you talk sh!t, and you dont fight. You're a *****. You talk ****, then you get your ass kicked. You are now a ***** who talked **** and couldnt back it up.

[Daredevil]

It's not like there aren't illegal street races.

Or just some slightly reckless fun between friends and cars.

The point being, there's always a venue.

ps. Meat Shake - thanks for the latest signature addition. Heh.

[Ray Pina]

Two people can say the same thing, but its their background that gives it merit:

Devil Advocate example: Wing Chun sucks!

Now, I turned to Wing Chun because when I first came across it I thought it was the greatest thing in the world. "You mean, I don't have to karate block and throw a reverse punch? I can stick and follow or lead!?"

It was like reading Jack Kerouac for the first time after reading years of school drivle. I loved it ... 5 times a week. Special classes Friday night because I volunteered to Lion Dance.

Then, 3 years later, I got steam rolled by a Hsing-I guy 20 years my senior, 10 lbs lighter. OK, there was certainly room for improvement with my Wing Chun, but I experienced a foreign technology that was impressive ... as impressive as Wing Chun was. Having got what I needed from Wing Chun, I began to seek out this guy's teacher.

Now, WC is a great style, but I can say its weight distribution can be dangerous, they tend to lean back under pressure and the bong sau can be flipped.

Yesterday's God is today's Devil. Everyone is worshipping their present deity, even BJJ guys.

[Merryprankster]

Everyone is worshipping their present deity, even BJJ guys.

Not true. Only those prone to hero worship and the gullible worship their art, their instructor or an ancient, ultra-powerful master.

Others use their critical thinking skills to try and make some sense of things.

[Brad Souders]

it's a great troll job when u can use a :D and still get flamed


LOL

[Ralphie]

Nice try, attempting to change this into a style vs. style debate when its just an exercise in critical thinking.

Perhaps, but your original supposition left quite a bit to be opened up to creative thinking, no?

Anyway, I honestly don't have a large enough frame of reference in order to declare what you did. I will make some observations based on some relevant personal thoughts on the subject, though:

1) CMA are segmented, as China itself is segmented. North, South, East, West, Urban, Country, Muslim, Daoist, Buddhist, Rich, poor, Han, Hakka, Peasant, Noble, Scholar etc. This pattern is reflected in CMA itself. There were competing groups, but they did not nec. mingle far and wide, as most had a strong regional identity. There were competitions and challenges for proving purposes of course, and even on national levels for those who had the opportunity. This way, the subtleties of fighting were known and used.
2) An appropriate Chinese saying "One Chinese vs. one Japanese, Chinese wins. Two Chinese vs. Two Japanese, Japanese wins". This relates back to statement one. There was never a modern format as decided on by the Chinese so successful competition formats were not agreed upon by a larger body of CMA high level instructors. I think Judo is a good example of how a Japanese art was introduced into a modern context successfully. Of course, the West has boxing and wrestling that has supported both professionally and on the amateur level, and Judo's format has a similar look and feel.
3) Communist China snuffed the fighting aspect of their martial arts, and introduced non-fighting type things like forms to give people an exercise benefit. In the process, many high level practitioners fled or died, further dissipating weakly tied bonds between groups.
4) People in the west have picked up on forms as CMA, and have been misinformed that it translates to fighting. Forms are a training tool, but dead and empty without the how and why of it.
5) The expectation of the modern consumer searching for a MA is the American Krotty Dojo. This has not translated well for the fighting aspect of KF, but maybe for the pocket book of the instructor. A lot of people are happy to punch from a stance, or do a cool kick. They get a sense of satisfaction playing tag in a fighting stance, and this is fine with them.

All this being said, it is not an axiom that CMA or TMA are all bad or mostly so. I have met and trained with some incredibly talented CMAists who are on par with any other type of fighter I've met. I think the failure to create a broad based amatuer to professional forum for testing CMA has been a weak spot for consistant CMA advancement outside tight ethnic circles.
-Steve

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Warning, longish post (might be offensive to some).

Over here we tend to get a lot of the older KF movies on TV.
Last night we had "Game of Death" on, not again was my initial reaction.

But this time I watched the movie with a different eye more in the line as to how this movie has influenced peoples perception of MA.

In one scene when BL first time steps out onto the training round he stills wears his Chinese clothing, one guy asks him why he is not in Uniform aka Dogi.

Lots of the stereo-types that people have of MA come from just such movies as this one, further emphasized by the way the actors and their achievements ar glorified.

Many might still remember the Bruce Li movies after 1973 and similiar, not many might also know that Jackie Chan was in Game of Death and that he was finally choosen as the "successor" to Bruce Lee.

IMHO, Jackie always had a better physique and skill than Bruce Lee and I would rather watch one of his old movies than any BL movie.

So a lot of what many people accept as true TMA is just as accurate as the Hollywood period dramas, aka very little historic value and accuracy to the real events/customs/etc.

So naturally there will be many people Chinese and non-Chinese selling that fantasy to people.
I have heard many a story where a guy in China ended up paying 10 times or more per lesson than fellow chinese students, or the 2yr BB-courses offered to US-Soldiers in Okinawa, or similar.

In the end you get what you want out of your MA study. Is it real? Is it effective? Was it worth the time and investment?

That is something that everybody has to decide for themselves.