Wing Chun, Yip Man and Sifu Ross

[jimbob]

Not sure who else here visits the Underground forum but for those of you missing it, Sifu Ross has opened a jkd Pandora's box over there, and bless his furry little self, has the jkd population in quite a dither. David if you're reading this - inspired stuff mate!

In amongst it all, he raised some interesting points about Yip Man - his frail health, his "distractions" shall we say, that supposedly curtailed his teaching abilities.

Now - I know very little about wing chun and I have no desire to start more $hit here. But these thoughts crossed my mind in reading Sifu Ross's arguments.

If much of the wing chun we see comes to us through the Yip Man lineage (certainly seems to be a point of some prestige for a wing chun person), and Yip Man perhaps wasn't as capable a teacher as he could have been, and his students perhaps were not taught as completely as they might have been, before they themselves began spreading the word, then what is the true state of wing chun as most of us know it today?

I have visions of Japanese karate - a highly watered down misunderstood facsimilie of something else that has become shackled to tradition and ritual, and which has little bearing on either self defense or fighting. Of course, we could probably apply that statement to a lot of TCMA's too - but it was the wing chun example that grabbed me after reading Sifu Ross's post.

So - knowledgeable and open minded friends, I would love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks

Jim

[Serpent]

Any chance of a link to Ross's post?

[SifuAbel]

"and bless his furry little self"


Laughed so hard my liver jumped out and started picketing against the unfair treatment of my lungs.

[Wingman]

I suggest you take this thread to the wing chun forum. I'm sure you will open another Pandora's box over there.:D

[jimbob]

Wingman

I have no intention of opening another Pandora's Box. What I'm asking, I could ask about a lot of traditional Chinese arts - it's just that Sifu Ross's comments about Yip Man made me curious about wing chun - especially as it is one of the more popular systems of kung fu in the western world. I do hope he sees this thread and drops in to say hello.

And Sifu Abel - glad to put a smile on your face, mate!

Cheers

Jim

[jimbob]

Serpent

I can't seem to post a link direct to that thread. Head over to mma.tv and look for the thread titled "Bruce Lee; The Myth". there's some good interesting stuff there.

:)

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Let see if this works:

Bruce Lee; the MYTH (http://mma.tv/TUF/DisplayMessages.cfm?TID=315244&FID=1)


Seems to work just fine. ;)

[lkfmdc]

Being of Eastern European descent, I am quite furry and quite proud of it, so rock on :)

Sadly, none of the tools over there have been able to address ANY of the legit questions raised over there.

As for Yip Man lineage, the fortunate thing about the opening of China to the outside world over the last 10 years or so has been that we see OTHER lineages of Wing Chun. When you see them, you can't HELP but ask questions.

Of course, when you do, the "true believers" lose their minds...

It's so much fun! :D

[yenhoi]

What does Bruce Lee have to do with JKD or WCK nowadays?

:confused:

Of course, One more :rolleyes: for Lamar Davis.

:eek:

[old jong]

What a troll!...:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

For the "JKD concepts" guys, Bruce means very little these days, they are basicly doing MMA and are so far removed from what he did it isn't even funny

For the rest however, they still every day quote Bruce and do everything based upon what he did, and since he said some pretty silly things, they are a pretty silly lot, and the "cult of personality" surrounding him is pathetic

[SifuAbel]

"I read the "sifu" Lamar thread and had to stop myself from laughing, really JKD people need to officially call what they do a religion since they try and turn Bruce Lee into some sort of god.

Bruce Lee's formal martial arts training? Let's just get down to the facts. Tai Chi in the mornings with his dad in the park and about 8 months of Wing Chun. *( there is no upper case 8 ) months under a man who only taught to support his opium habit, habitually showed disinterest in teaching and who was known to fall asleep during class. After Bruce became a "big star" he went back to the class in Hong Kong and found out he couldn't even hang with the beginners anymore, so he created his own style. Be the big man in your own style as opposed to no one in your origianal school. "

Its a good start, the religion of Bruce is everywhere. In 200 years or so he will replace jesus.

I must say that I've encounted this "Leeism" many times.

I wouldn't say BL was an inferior fighter. But I still don't follow what he says like gospel. Many just repeat what bruce said like a bible passage instead of trying to get to the deeper possibility. "But Bruce said......." Of course, To contradict the "ultimate source" is blasphemy. I tell people that, imo, Bruce needed more time to better structure his explanations of his philosophy. He needed to get a little older and be less the 60's drama queen he was. And they respond like I just dissed jhesus and the bible. When you look at whats happening to JKD you see why I think this. Bruce was the ultimate inclusionist, he tryed to absorb from many different sources. Today JKD is becomeing more and more exclusionist and just trys to reduce what even the paticular instructor teaches down gen. to gen..

[SifuAbel]

Ch, Ch, Ch, Chia............

I think one of us should shave before we fight since we might get stuck together like velcro.

[lkfmdc]

I refuse to shave my legs, they are my best asset...

Anyone notice how I punk'd the queen of sambo on that thread?

"you name the time and place", I did, and then 150 excuses why suddenly he couldnt' do it :)

[Meat Shake]

"I think one of us should shave before we fight since we might get stuck together like velcro."

Thats not a pleasant mental image.
WHeres the eew face when you need it? :confused:

[rubthebuddha]

abel -- dead on on the leeism. me? i'm a frisbeetarian. i believe that when we die, our soul rises up and gets stuck on the roof.

ross -- can't really comment on other lineages of wing chun, as the only ones i've seen and crossed hands with descended from yip man. what i can say is that, regardless of the merit, what he taught changed a fair amount over the years, much of which was because of his aging and failing health. those who are older know that things that came easily in youth aren't as reliable in the elder years.* thus, he changed what he taught as he got older. what i've been taught is that he modified his wc to become softer and less reliant on physical ability. makes sense to me. not everyone's built like emin boztepe, and even emin will get older.





* yes, i'm only 26. at least i didn't call other people old ****s. :p

[yenhoi]

For the "JKD concepts" guys, Bruce means very little these days, they are basicly doing MMA and are so far removed from what he did it isn't even funny

For the rest however, they still every day quote Bruce and do everything based upon what he did, and since he said some pretty silly things, they are a pretty silly lot, and the "cult of personality" surrounding him is pathetic

.....where do you place Inosanto and his kin?

:confused:

[SifuAbel]

thats easy, Penkac Silat

[rogue]

That thread is a masterwork David. I like the guys getting on you about picking on a dead guy but it's OK to glorify the same dead guy. Also like the Vunak remark about "flowing". Too funny.:)

[Knifefighter]

After Bruce became a "big star" he went back to the class in Hong Kong and found out he couldn't even hang with the beginners anymore, so he created his own style. "

Not sure how accurate this account is, but not being able to hang in chi sao has nothing to do with fighting ability. I think lot of JKD was not very practical, but I believe it was still quite a step above wing chun.

[BAI HE]

Regarding Wing Chun, checkout this old thread from Tim Cartmell's ShenWu board.

Start with the post in the middle of the page by EUROPEAN.
Pretty interesting stuff IMO>

http://www.shenwu.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

[BAI HE]

".....where do you place Inosanto and his kin?"

At Pak Vic DeThour's "Ring Of Fire" in Las Vegas last year (Silat Serak anyone?)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by yenhoi
[i].....where do you place Inosanto and his kin?


I think Dan took Bruce's JKD to the next level of advancement by focusing more on Muay Thai, Boxing, and FMA (which was itself moved up another level by the Dog Bros). I believe he got lost on a tangent for a while in the "Silat quest", but returned to reality in his focus on grappling.

[rogue]

I believe he got lost on a tangent for a while in the "Silat quest"...

From what I've read and heard about Dan he's not a dabbler or toe dipper when approaching an art. Better to explore something and see if something really has merit. I think Dan would have surpassed Lee.

[BAI HE]

Depends on what you believe I guess, Silat Serak is a pretty complete system IMO. At the same event Mr. Inosanto pulled my teacher aside after a BaGua demo to say that it was the one of the best IMA demo's he'd ever seen. He's always searching and climbing. To say that researching"Grappling" is a return to reality is pretty funny, It's one range of fighting, unless you mean standing grappling as well.

Either way neither of us speak for Mr. Inosanto.

[BAI HE]

"From what I've read and heard about Dan he's not a dabbler or toe dipper when approaching an art."

Great point. Dan would probably look at the angles and mechanics and just "ingest" them at his level. There are only so many ways and principles in which to move the body.
If you are a skilled piano player, all you have to do is watch and listen to understand what tune is being played.

A BaGua man may look at Silat and say "That's BaGua"! A silat man looks at BaGua nad says "That's Silat!"

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by BAI HE
To say that researching"Grappling" is a return to reality is pretty funny, It's one range of fighting, unless you mean standing grappling as well.

I mean all grappling. Grappling is not a "range" of fighting. It is one of the components of fighting.

[BAI HE]

Thanks for clarifying KF. There seems to be as much diversity in people's thoughts as to what "grappling" is, as to what "striking" is.

With so many mistaking "sub specialties" of H2H with well rounded "specialties" of H2H, you can understand why I pressed for distiction.

[diego]

Originally posted by BAI HE
Regarding Wing Chun, checkout this old thread from Tim Cartmell's ShenWu board.

Start with the post in the middle of the page by EUROPEAN.
Pretty interesting stuff IMO>

http://www.shenwu.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

the link takes me to the site index, what forum is it in?.

[BAI HE]

http://www.shenwu.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

If thst doesn't work go to www.shenwwwwu.con, click discussion, use the search function on the left type in "Ip Man" and in the fields below it where they ask " How/Log days type in "300".

It's worth the hassle for WC guys.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

"The cult of someone who knew very little, talked like a fortune cookie and benefitted from dying early... "

See now this is what grates me about the anti-Bruce Lee crowd. Because, apparently, they all knew him on a personal level. I think most JKD people are full of it and are just trying to milk the name which Lee regretted ever making, but that doesnt mean that Bruce was at fault. Knew little? he spent a major part of his life fighting in the streets of hong kong. I would say that he had more fights than nearly everyone on that (and this) forum, yet they are all experts on what works and what doesnt.

At the end of the day, no one here is any position to pass judgement on someone who they have never met. Apparently by seeing his movies and reading some crap on the internet, you know all there is to know about Lee? sure. And you would think most practitioners of kung fu would have the respect not to diss someone who is already dead. But I guess thats what seperates the frauds from the people who have actually learnt more than how to throw a punch from their training.

[BAI HE]

Ikken said:

"See now this is what grates me about the anti-Bruce Lee crowd.
Because, apparently, they all knew him on a personal level. I think most JKD people are full of it and are just trying to milk the name which Lee regretted ever making, but that doesnt mean that Bruce was at fault."

I've spent a lot of time distancing myself from whay people think is CMAA thanks to his on screen theatrics.

"Knew little?"

Accoding to Yip Man.

"he spent a major part of his life fighting in the streets of hong kong. I would say that he had more fights than nearly everyone on that (and this) forum, yet they are all experts on what works and what doesnt."

Bruce fought no one. He was a contemporary to some of the greatest TCMA fighters of all time ( The Hung Bros., Wang Shu Jin etc...) Did he really seek the truth or did he seek to dazzle?

"At the end of the day, no one here is any position to pass judgement on someone who they have never met. Apparently by seeing his movies and reading some crap on the internet, you know all there is to know about Lee? sure. And you would think most practitioners of kung fu would have the respect not to diss someone who is already dead. But I guess thats what seperates the frauds from the people who have actually learnt more than how to throw a punch from their training."

And you are armed with less facts then the Lee detractors and have served his memory how? So if you are not a Bruce movie fan you are a KF fraud? Because that's all Bruce really did is make a few good movies.

I like his JKD ideas though. These ideas have spawned a legacy of guys who train realistically and work hard. Was he original? No.There is nothing Bruce Lee said that Wang XianJai hadn't said and Bruce's cross training? Done in the 1800's by the Xingyi and Bagua guys.

Bruce was only new to America.


__________________

[Cung-Fu]

Bai He-

So, you are saying traditonal chinese martial art masters advocate cross training? Such as modern strength (weight) training?

From my limited experience most traditional teachers don't advocate that. But then they teach you to use sandbags, weighted concrete blocks,....etc.

Which is the same thing to me, but for some reason that seems to be different.

[BAI HE]

Some did advocate it, some did not.
In the IMA's I study (Bagua and Xingyi) all the
the old guys cross trained in both arts and most had
trained in arts previous to their Ima study.
My BaGua is heavily influenced by SC techniques.

As far a supplemental physical training? Many arts
have it and have had it. From Dynamic tension exercises twisting bundles of sticks (wrist strength) and hanging from trees.

[jun_erh]

oh brother. lmdc or whatever is what he makes fun of: a "type" often found in this or any art. The great uncoverer of traditional lies. Wow I had no idea learning a form didn't make you a super fighter.

Yip man did Opium. so what? Bruce Lee and Yip Man had natural talent. you can follow all the rules you want but you either got it or you don't.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

Originally posted by BAI HE

I've spent a lot of time distancing myself from whay people think is CMAA thanks to his on screen theatrics.

Its true that a lot of people seem to think that all martial artists fight like Bruce Lee. that is irelevant though. I can't think of one movie with kung fu action and a believable fight scene, mainly because a believable fight scene would be boring. He was a fighter, but he was an actor as well who knew what the americans wanted.


"Knew little?"

Accoding to Yip Man. knew little about wing chun you mean- he only studied it for two years. Depends on how you look at it though- Yip Man had probably forgotten more about martial arts than Bruce ever learned, but thats like saying einstein would have forgotten more about science than I have learned. not exactly a put-down.


Bruce fought no one. He was a contemporary to some of the greatest TCMA fighters of all time ( The Hung Bros., Wang Shu Jin etc...) Did he really seek the truth or did he seek to dazzle?
Right.... Of course I dont know either, but apart from being an amateur boxer he was constantly getting into fights when he was a teenager which was part of the reason he was sent to america. I dont really know what else to say, unless everyone who knew him has been lying all these years.



And you are armed with less facts then the Lee detractors and have served his memory how? So if you are not a Bruce movie fan you are a KF fraud? Because that's all Bruce really did is make a few good movies. I serve his memory by not bagging a dead person for achieving so much for modern martial arts. And when did I say anything about having to be a fan of his movies? And he didnt "just make a few movies" He opened the door for westerners into CMA.


I like his JKD ideas though. These ideas have spawned a legacy of guys who train realistically and work hard. Was he original? No.There is nothing Bruce Lee said that Wang XianJai hadn't said and Bruce's cross training? Done in the 1800's by the Xingyi and Bagua guys.

Bruce was only new to America.


Now this is exactly what Im talking about. GASP! you mean Bruce Lee didnt invent cross training!?!?! oh no! Ill let you in on a secret here- no one ever claimed he did. And to be truthful he was new to china as well- they didnt actually have many good chop socky movies and to them, he was a star, an icon of how chinese people can do well in america. Which I think is more important than any fighting ability

[Meat Shake]

"Bruce was only new to America."

Bai He has taken the correct, placed its teeth against a curb, and stomped the back of its neck.

[Cung-Fu]

BAI HE-

Training in another style wasn't exactly my definition of cross training. I was referring more to like, what you said about physical training, tension, twisting bamboo, etc.

Yet these exercises are nothing more than resistance training, for the most part. Some of which, in my opinion, MAYBE inferior to modern strength and conditioning methods.

For ex. dynamic tension, although increases strength quickly, does not increase overall strength as much as max.load training.

[Royal Dragon]

For ex. dynamic tension, although increases strength quickly, does not increase overall strength as much as max.load training.

Reply]
True, but those that have done it will tell you it makes you hard as steel. The extra resistance to impact is an obvious benift to anyone who fights.

I personally like the idea of a good 40 minute run of San Zhen after doing modern weights/strength training. It's more well rounded, and the two methods complement each other well.

[planetwc]

I'm not sure what David Ross's beef is with Bruce Lee or Yip Man.
He studied with neither gentleman, nor apparently has he trained in Wing Chun. Perhaps the Lama guys had a thing against Wing Chun, who knows?

Did Yip Man have an opium habit towards the end of his life? Yes.

Did Yip Man bring Wing Chun to the public eye in HK? Yes.

Did Yip Man have a core group of students he taught the system to LONG before William Cheung or Leung Ting were around?

Sure. Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, Chu Shong Tin, Yip Bo Ching, Wong Shun Leung

Did Wing Chun gain popularity in HK it's challenge matches? Yes.

As Yip Man became famous in HK, did he have a lack of interest in teaching teenagers either one on one or in class? Yep.

Did Wing Chun gain international popularity due to Bruce Lee being a former student? Sure enough.

Is Wing Chun one of the largest and most popular TCMA? Yep.

Did Bruce Lee have a lot of students with either extensive Boxing, Streetfighting or Kenpo experience before becoming his students? Yes.

Jesse Glover
James DeMile
Ed Hart

Dan Inosantos
Larry Hartsell

One has to wonder WHY guys like this who were physically larger and stronger than Lee would have become his students and stayed with him--if he had nothing to offer. The same goes for Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, and Mike Stone.

Has there been a lot of "diefication" of Bruce Lee and JKD? Sure.

Was Bruce Lee's training in Wing Chun incomplete? Of Course!

But as one can see, a lot of this can be said in a way that doesn't sound petty envious or disrespectful. Why be a player hater?

That said, what are Mr Ross's contributions to either Wing Chun OR JKD? Other than sideline sour grapes?

Guys like Matt Thorton or Tommy Carruthers are keeping JKD alive in their active approach of training and doing.

Both Yip Man and his former student Bruce Lee did a tremendous amount of good in terms of general exposure to Chinese Martial arts literally around the world. In the end they were both only human and had their own personal mental and physical frailties.

Even with those, they have influenced and brought awareness to millions of people about martial arts in general. And each had their core set of students with amazing talent and martial skill. Pretty amazing things for two "skinny little" chinese guys.

Perhaps that just eats at the insides of Mr Ross--at this point who cares?

Why spit on two dead men's graves, jealous of their place in history, and what they did and didn't do with their lives?




Originally posted by jimbob
Not sure who else here visits the Underground forum but for those of you missing it, Sifu Ross has opened a jkd Pandora's box over there, and bless his furry little self, has the jkd population in quite a dither. David if you're reading this - inspired stuff mate!

In amongst it all, he raised some interesting points about Yip Man - his frail health, his "distractions" shall we say, that supposedly curtailed his teaching abilities.

Now - I know very little about wing chun and I have no desire to start more $hit here. But these thoughts crossed my mind in reading Sifu Ross's arguments.

If much of the wing chun we see comes to us through the Yip Man lineage (certainly seems to be a point of some prestige for a wing chun person), and Yip Man perhaps wasn't as capable a teacher as he could have been, and his students perhaps were not taught as completely as they might have been, before they themselves began spreading the word, then what is the true state of wing chun as most of us know it today?

I have visions of Japanese karate - a highly watered down misunderstood facsimilie of something else that has become shackled to tradition and ritual, and which has little bearing on either self defense or fighting. Of course, we could probably apply that statement to a lot of TCMA's too - but it was the wing chun example that grabbed me after reading Sifu Ross's post.

So - knowledgeable and open minded friends, I would love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks

Jim

[Tit Sa]

Maybe Ross see's a little of himself in Bruce lee.

Bruce didn't get complete WC
Ross didn't get quality traditional MA training

Bruce tried to "break the mold" of TCMA
Ross is also trying to break a mold (40 yrs. too late though)

Bruce saw himself as a innovator
Ross see's himself as one too

But you can't be an genuine innovator, if someone has already taken the spot. So he thinks why shouldn't he (ross) get as much fanfare and noteriety as bruce.

In short, he is just jealous at bruce, and the fame and fortune he reached.

[Brad Souders]

O man after

a couple national sombo (sport and combat) titles
a couple bjj titles
a couple state judo titles
competing in a san shou match with one week of san shou training
competing in two BAMA shootfights
competing in several submission tourneys
still active training

After all this i'm going to have to redo everything. Alot of what i base my mental game on is the writtings of Bruce Lee. He may be dead but his brain was brillant at the time.

I respect Ross and for sure his bad ass students, but i wish he would have told me this a little sooner so i could be successful in events instead of my crappy results so far.

The one thing people don't understand is if u train in more then one martial art your doing what Brue Lee did like it or not. He at the time may have not been the first but he made it popular. He gavce it a name so when people asked him what he trained he didn't have to rattle off fourty names. Not everyone has to have 100 titles to their name to be a great instructor.

Maybe we should respect someone's mind instead of their "nutsack" level?


Total Martial Training,Jeet Kune Do,Mixed Martial Arts,Freestyle Martial Arts

Call it what u want i call it life, and i respect the mental advantages Bruce Lee's writtings have given me. If u don't want them that's fine, one more advantage to me :D

Brad Souders

[lkfmdc]

Brad

Clearly, if Bruce Lee's writings inspired you then more power to them. HOWEVER, I was commenting in response to the Sifu Lama thread which stated stuff like

1. Bruce Lee was the greatest fighter ever, way beyond "silly" guys like Royce Grace, etc etc blah blah

AND

2. Bruce Lee knew more about martial arts than anyone

Both statements are FALSE and clearly so, but I guess the cult of personality can't accept that. Just like they can't seem to grasp that had he not been a movie star, he would not have had the impact he did

Here's a quiz for the forum

Chan Tai San
Jeng Hsin-Ping
Wing Hong Yip
Thomas Yeung
Adam Hsu
Daneil Weng
Wong Tai
YC Wong

What do all these people have in common?

According to "Tit Sa", NONE know any legit Chinese martial arts :rolleyes:

[Brad Souders]

i'm with you on the cult thing but i think i may disagree a small amount on him not being as popular in MA without the movies. I know very little about aikido and O Sensei but i have read alot of his material for the grasp and the only movie he could have possibly been in was himself and his wife in a porno in their bedroom mirror :D

[diego]

Originally posted by BAI HE
http://www.shenwu.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

If thst doesn't work go to www.shenwwwwu.con, click discussion, use the search function on the left type in "Ip Man" and in the fields below it where they ask " How/Log days type in "300".

It's worth the hassle for WC guys.

cool, found it!.
peace:)

[yenhoi]

The Paul Box Show (http://www.forumco.com/pauljbax/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=30&CAT_ID=7&Forum_Title=1%2DJeet+Kune+Do)