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Knifefighter
07-20-2000, 01:33 AM
Based on your post regarding BJJ, you have never trained with or against anyone who knows BJJ. Here is why:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blacktsun:
Mr. Ryman is a certified Tae Kwon Do instructor, and he teaches tkd. As side
classes (no extra charge) he has gracie jiu jitsu,
The instructor's name is Greg Ryman. He has a blue belt and trains under
Horance [/quote] If your story is true, the gentleman you are talking about is not a Gracie jui-jitsu instructor. I train at the Gracie Academy and know all the instructors in the instructor program. Also there is no Horance Gracie.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blacktsun:
Just out of curiousity, is it standard practice at bjj schools to require students
to sign a three year contract with only three days to decide if you like the
class and end the contract? [/quote] No, Gracie Jiu-Jistsu requires no contracts. All training associations that would be run by blue belts would charge a small fee of 10 to 20 dollars per month.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blacktsun:
The first class was a
blast, but Mr. Ryman wouldn't show myself or my friend anything that we
didn't already know.
There are a few differances in actual moves, but they are few and far
between, and not worth arguing over. [/quote] ThatÂ’s because you werenÂ’t training in Brazilian jiu jitsu. I guarantee I could show you hundreds of moves you have never seen before.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blacktsun:
He may consider bjj unbeatable, but I've beaten it. Hell, I beat it in his
school during the interductory course.[/quote] ThatÂ’s because you have not fought against a BJJ trained fighter, but rather students from a TKD instructor who is pretending to teach it.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blacktsun:
If a bjj stylist can force the monkey to slow down to the prefered bjj pace,
then the bjj stylist has it won. [/quote]
Some BJJ techniques are done slowly. Some are done extremely quickly. I also guarantee that I can perform BJJ techniques as fast or faster than you can perform techniques from Monkey Kung Fu.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blacktsun:
I haven't found ANY other bjj schools in the area.[/quote] That is why you have never had the chance to go against a BJJ practitioner, but just one from a fake TKD school.

wisdom mind
07-20-2000, 02:00 AM
sorry knife, but i had to respond.

any seminarz on BJJ in NYC ever?
the classes are like 135 a month which is way to high for I...

thanx

GunnedDownAtrocity
07-20-2000, 02:15 AM
i dont like your attitude. i dont like you.

Chameleon
07-20-2000, 02:32 AM
Knifefighter -

I went to this site (http://www.bjj.org/jjitsu/beltranks.html) to look at the instructors.

No Mr. Ryman.

Could you explain what the different belt rankings mean. There are a couple of blue belt levels in my area.

Also, what is the belt progression in BJJ, and how long does it take to be able to effectively utilize techniques?

Knifefighter
07-20-2000, 03:57 AM
GunnedDownAtrocity:
So? Is that supposed to bother me?

wisdom mind:
Steve Kardanian (sp?) has a training association in New York and often hosts seminars.

Chameleon:
Belt rankings are: white; blue; purple; brown; black. It takes from 2 to 4 years to advance through each level. A person with 6 to 8 months experience will be very effective against someone who is not familiar with the ground, especially if they have some standing art as a base.

DragonzRage
07-20-2000, 04:54 AM
From what I've seen there are too many karate/TKD McDojos around that are trying to jump on the Bjj success by offering some half-a$ Bjj instruction beside the crap that they specialize in. It's ridiculous.

BTW, Horance Gracie??? LOL!!!

blacktsun
07-20-2000, 07:44 AM
Knifefighter,

This is part of the reason I started the string. I wanted to check up on this guy. I wanted to know if this was the real deal. If you check my prior post on the subject, I asked if he was what he was trying to appear to be. Everyone came back with a postive, go ahead. So, I may have had a misconception of what real gracie jiu jitsu is, I at least made the effort to check on what I should be looking for.

When everyone came back with a go ahead, and things turned out the way they did ... well, I hope you can see where the misconception came from. I made my comparisons based on what everyone here said appeared to be good. If I am way off base, as you say I am, then, please, accept my apology.

But, I have fought others who claim to know bjj. My kicking their ass, then saying so, is no differant than others kicking the ass of kung fu wanna be's, and proclaiming themselves the master of all fighting. Granted, the "bjj stylists" I fought were probobly just as fake as the kung fu stylists that many people I've seen on here beat.

Please consider what I said here, and don't misconstrue it as an attack on bjj. It's not. It's just my side of the coin.

GunnedDownAtrocity
07-20-2000, 09:13 PM
kinifefighter, no it shouldnt bother you. the only reason i said that at all was because it appears your putting bjj up on a platform high above kung fu. you said "that I can perform BJJ techniques as fast or faster than you can perform techniques from Monkey Kung Fu." that just sounds arrogant. were you simply defending your art against previous attacks, or were you really trying to say that your bbj shall defeat any kung fu wimp muahahahaha? if i misconstrued what you were trying to get accross i offer my appologies. if i hit the nail on the head then i have to stick with not liking you.

Chameleon
07-20-2000, 09:40 PM
Knifefighter -

Thanks for your responses. I have a few more qestions, if you don't mind?

What is the difference between all the different schools (Liboni, Carlson, Machado, etc.) Is the content all pretty much the same?

What does it mean to achieve belt rankings at the lower level (blue, purple, etc.)? I've heard that it is based on fighting ability, and that you cannot get promoted unless you've proven effective?

Is this also true for the degrees of black? Or are they based on knowing more techniques? Or do the different black levels start becoming an honorary kind of thing?

Thanks.

SifuAbel
07-21-2000, 12:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Knifefighter:
GunnedDownAtrocity:
So? Is that supposed to bother me?

wisdom mind:
Steve Kardanian (sp?) has a training association in New York and often hosts seminars.

Chameleon:
A person with 6 to 8 months experience will be very effective against someone who is not familiar with the ground, especially if they have some standing art as a base.
[/quote]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

Be more specific. Are you saying that someone with less than a year of experience can take out anyone? Without getting seriuosy injured by, lets say, someone who has five years experience in a standing art(whatever that is)?

Knifefighter
07-21-2000, 01:12 AM
GunnedDownAtrocity:
I was addressing the misconception that blackstun had regarding the speed of techniques of BJJ. I wasnÂ’t saying that BJJ could or couldnÂ’t defeat anyone, just that many of the techniques are performed at very fast speeds.

SifuAbel:
To be more specific, it is my belief that a BJJ practitioner with 6 months to a year of training, will beat 90% of fighters who donÂ’t have ground experience -IF- the BJJ player can get the opponent to the ground. A BJJ player who has a standing art as a base, will have a much better chance of getting his opponent down to the ground.

To use myself as an example, I had trained in standup arts for over 15 years before I began training in BJJ. I regularly sparred with a group of other standup artists all of whom were as good or better than me. After about 6 months of BJJ training, I could pretty much take every one of them out at will within a few minutes and some of them outweighed me by close to 100 lbs. It got so bad that they would only spar with me if I didnÂ’t use BJJ.

Chameleon:
The content of most BJJ schools is pretty much the same in terms of the basics. There are variations in advanced techniques, depending on the focus of the particular school. For instance, a school training for Vale Tudo would have slightly different techniques than one that was training for BJJ competitions.

Belt rankings above white are earned from a combination of sparring ability and knowledge of techniques. While most schools donÂ’t require it, doing well in competitions and challenge matches tends to speed up progression through the ranks. I believe the degrees of black are more related to teaching ability.

LEGEND
07-21-2000, 05:42 AM
KNIFEFIGHTER is very accurate in his info on BJJ...
Most standup fighter do not know what to do against a takedown tech...they presume that they can KO a guy attempting a takedown...standup fighters must learn to counter a takedown...by sprawling or so forth to stop a takedown realistically...if a standup fighter is taken to the ground it's OVER within SECONDs! Most "pure" standup guys on the ground would extend a limb or turn their back exposing a neck...of course the BJJ guy would win! There are cases of standup fighter with good anti-takedown techs who have KO a BJJ guy...PRIDE has a fighter named IGOR VORCHIN that has KO several BJJ guys...observed his technique...

blacktsun
07-21-2000, 05:42 AM
Knifefighter,

I agree with part of what you said. A bjj stylist has a good chance of beating many fighters... on the ground. The same can be said for any form of grappling. I wished to learn bjj to add to my monkey, which also has alot of ground fighting.

One last thing, to guarrentee a product with out being properly familiar with the competition only sets you up to look like an idiot.

Knifefighter
07-21-2000, 06:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blacktsun:
...to guarrentee a product with out being properly familiar with the competition only sets you up to look like an idiot. [/quote]

I guaranteed two things, both of which I know quite a bit about.
1- I guaranteed I could show you hundreds of moves from BJJ that you had not seen if you had not studied BJJ. I have studied many styles and have yet to find any style that does not have a plethora of techniques that is unique to that particular style. BJJ is no different . It has literally thousands of techniques, a large portion of which are particular to BJJ only.
2- I guaranteed that I could perform techniques form BJJ as fast or faster than those you do in monkey. I know this because my field of expertise is exercise science and I know that human movement speed has certain parameters. The movement patterns of many BJJ techniques are at the maximum range for speed parameters.

blacktsun
07-21-2000, 06:24 AM
But, Knifefighter, don't those perameters change from person to person? I think this is true because I've known people who, despite whatever training their tried, who could not match my speed. For that matter, there are people that I've never been able to match as far as technique speed goes. I've tried several methods and have gotten faster with each method, but some peoples limits are higher than others.

Knifefighter
07-21-2000, 08:54 AM
Yes those parameters do change from person to person and there is a chance that you could perform your techniques faster than I could mine, in which case my "guarantee" would be invalid. My point wasn't, however, to debate whether or not I am quicker than you are, but rather to point out the flaw that BJJ depends on slow techniques.

laughing tiger
07-21-2000, 01:40 PM
It's a shame that in over a thousand years of chinese kung fu and many hundreds of masters who dedicated their lives to combat study, that none of them even conceived of techniques BJJ guys use. Interesting.......

[This message has been edited by laughing tiger (edited 07-22-2000).]

Braden
07-21-2000, 03:18 PM
Be reasonable people.

I don't hear anyone insisting that there's nothing in Capoeria that hasn't been mastered by the chinese, or that fencing is only watered down jian forms.

So what's the fascination with trying to deny that there is value in BJJ?

blacktsun
07-21-2000, 03:40 PM
Not all of us are trying to deny value in bjj. I've stated my interest in it. However, what I am saying is that there is no end-all-be-all style. If there was, there wouldn't be so many styles around. I am also saying that having to defend kung fu's usefulness against bjj is getting really old. I say that I've beaten it and somebody comes back and says, "you've never faced bjj". It is all just so ridiculous. You're good in bjj. Great. I'm good in kung fu. Instead of beating our heads together to see whos cracks first, should we be exchanging information. Maybe, if that happened, all this "bjj is better than kung fu/kung fu is better than bjj" bs will end. I, for one am sick of it and was sick of it when I started my string. I was hoping a comparison would end some of these debates, but it just seems to have ****ed people off, making it harder to get a proper exchange of information.

SifuAbel
07-22-2000, 01:01 AM
Here! Here! Well said. These ****** measuring contests are getting old. Nothing and noone is unbeatable.

Knifefighter
07-22-2000, 03:39 AM
Laughing Tiger:
The reason that BJJ has so many techniques that are unique to it only is because it is just about the only style where two guys spend 95% of their time rolling around on the floor. The thousands of Chinese masters that you refer to spent the majority of their time developing standing, throwing and/or joint locking techniques, but didnÂ’t spend 95% ot their time rolling around on the ground. When you spend the majority of time doing something that most other people donÂ’t do much of, if at all, it stands to reason that you will develop things that are unique to that only. I have spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours, learning thousands of techniques from the different ground positions that most people would not even recognize, let alone understand, unless they had the same or more ground specific training.

For you guys to say that you know the same techniques is just ludicrous. It would be just as ludicrous for me to say I have seen all the techniques in monkey kung fu when I have not studied it. Unless you have spent hours upon hours with a person laying on top of you from the side, or with one leg wrapped inside the other, or with his feet in opposite directions as your, or sitting out towards your head, or sitting out towards your feet, or straddling your torso, or with you legs around his torso, you cannot even begin to imagine the variety of subtle techniques that are used from these positions. And that is only from the bottom. There are just as many techniques if not more that are done from the top position. And then there is with the gi or without the gi, not to mention pure submission grappling or Vale Tudo. This is why, unless you have extensive ground grappling training, I can pretty much guarantee that I can show anyone many, many techniques that he has never seen before.

blacktsun
07-22-2000, 03:51 AM
Just out of curiousity, what about traditional jiu jitsu? What are the differences between them. Maybe that will help understand the differances between bjj and kung fu

Hey, it's worth a try.

shenden
07-22-2000, 10:01 PM
My friend studies a form of traditional jiu jutsu, and he told me it was all about controlling your opponent, until you can kill him with a technique.

Methods of control and killing include off balancing, throwing, nerve point striking, choking, breaking of neck, back, fingers, arms, legs, heck, just about any bone you can name, dislocation, gouging of eyes, crushing of testicles/eyeballs, stamping on feet/body/head, striking in various ways, using weapons in close quarter combat and grappling situations (a favourite he showed me, he threw me, and on my way down, i felt something cold run across the front of my neck. It was the back of a tanto he'd concealed, which I didn't even know he had on him, if it was the other way round, I'd have been dead before I hit the ground)

They learn flexible, bladed and clubbing weapons, throwing weapons, and improvised weapons. (I ended up being strangled with my own belt in one of our harder sparring sessions. Being foolhardy, I didn't tap out, just continued, kicking and thrashing, but he revived me afterwards...)

The art centres around disabling the person, then killing them as quickly as possible. Alot of set ups include kicking the nuts, clawing/crushing the nuts/eyes, and other brutal techniques.

Advanced techniques teach controlling the opponent without doing too much damage!

Hope that helps,
Shenden

(Now all we need is someone with a good descrition of BJJ, and we're set!)

laughing tiger
07-23-2000, 01:22 AM
Knifefighter, I completely agree with your last post. I think the place where our opinions differ is that (I may be wrong) the BJJ guys I see on the net talk as if geting to the point of having the opponent on the ground is just a given. I don't think they have ever really encountered someone who knows kung fu, I mean the real thing, not one of these combined new age seudo-arts. I think all of those past masters encountered guys trying to talk them down, and found it not so difficult to deal with. And this is the opinion of any serious practitioner I have ever met.
I also think that if one is able to (or somehow lucky enough to) close range on you, enter, grab and throw or bring you to the ground somehow, maneuver.....your kung fu is very poor. Period.
I also agree with you that, once on the ground, well....superior ground skills are necessary...goes without saying.
A while ago, I rented some UFC videos with Royce in them. The two things I saw was...firstly, none of the techniques that would stop him from a takedown would be allowed..and secondly, of course he is amazingly smart and resourceful on the ground. Even though I disagree with you on getting to the ground, I am enjoying reading your posts :-)

chokeyouout2
07-23-2000, 04:42 PM
kung fu i dont like you or you attitudelalalalalalalalalalalalaalalalalaalalalala lalaalalalalalaalalalaal you no fight you not fighter i fight you.valetudo

Chameleon
07-23-2000, 08:37 PM
laughing tiger:

I don't think that most quality bjj practicioners pretend that getting to the ground is a given...It is mostly just these trolls like Reality.

If you go over to Mousels, you will see that there are a lot of posters with respect for a lot of different arts. Most quality martial artists respect other arts, and I don't think bjj is any different in this regard.

I agree that preventing someone from taking you to the ground shouldn't be that difficult, and I think it would be even easier against a lot of these UFC-wannabe newbies who have no appreciation for what they don't know.

But stopping a groundfighter who has a lot of experience against stand up artists from eventually taking a fight to the grond would, IMO, be very difficult.

DragonMaster
07-23-2000, 09:29 PM
I agree with laughing tiger, BJJ has done well against peeps who dont know kung fu, a GOOD kung fu person would destroy someone trying to do takedowns like royce does easy. They wont close the distance enough without getting hurt BAD or killed, otherwise your kung fu is just poor.

Chameleon
07-23-2000, 10:11 PM
I think you guys are underestimating how smart and resourceful a guy like Royce can be on his feet.

JWTAYLOR
07-23-2000, 10:49 PM
Whoa there, reality check time.
Just because you get taken down doesn't mean that your kung fu is poor. It certainly doesn't mean that you are a poor stand up fighter.

Someone earlier mentioned Igor, but lets also think about Maurice Smith. These are two guys who are on top of the world as far as striking skills go. And they have both done very well in no holds barred competition. Both of them show the same basic technique against a takedown attempt. That is, a solid rear hand strait punch to the temple and jaw. Smith was nothing less than amazing in the UFC. Strikers all around the world looked to his fights as a validation of the striking arts. Later, Igor proved again that a strong hitter could rule grapplers.

HOWEVER,
as good as both men are, they still get taken down. (Look at the last pride for Igor, although his was a great fight.) Smith didn't become the UFC champion untill he trained with Frank Shamrock and learned some.. some what, GRAPPLING SKILLS.

Here in the really real world any fighter can be taken down. The best proffessional strikers in the world get taken down. What does that say about you, or me? It says that you can be a very good martial artist and still get your back on the mat.

Of course, I'm sure many of you will argue that Maurice Smith is nothing compared to a real kung fu master. In the wake of such a well informed and thought out argument, I can have no retort.

JWT

------------------
If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

GinSueDog
07-23-2000, 10:51 PM
I think someone here once pointed out, a ground fighter needs only to be successful once to take you down, while a striker must be successful everytime in preventing the groundfighter from taking him down, and still has to beat the ground fighter to boot. Many of you are talking as if a shoot is child's play to stop and it really isn't. I don't think the majority of you have ever even sparred against a average submission fighter, whether it is BJJ, Shooto, or a wrestler etc. If you want to be a multi-dimensional fighter, it is a given that you need to learn the ground game, at the very least don't discount it. I have to agree with Knifefighter, once a submission fighter has someone with little to no real ground fighting experience on the ground the fight is pretty much going to be one sided and the concludsion a given. Some of you also forget that in a streetfight, you are going to be lucky if the BJJ fighter is going to stop and let you go after you tap, odds are and if it were me at the very least I'd choke you out or bust a arm or shoulder to make sure the fight is out of you. A striker without the ground game is pretty much the same thing as a ground fighter without a striking game, one dimensional and limited.-ED

------------------
"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[This message has been edited by GinSueDog (edited 07-24-2000).]

DragonMaster
07-23-2000, 10:52 PM
He is terrible on his feet!

DragonMaster
07-23-2000, 11:06 PM
REAL Kung Fu has never been in the UFC. I have sparred bjj peeps and made them look foolish. I remember reading a while back someone here defeated 3 of them from the Gracie academy! I'm sure there are others here who have sparred bjj people before, am I right? Did they take you down easily? If so you definitely need to work on your Kung Fu. Simple.

ChuanFa
07-23-2000, 11:35 PM
Of course real Kung Fu has never been allowed in the UFC! The gracies stood to lose too much money if they were beaten! Just look at the Pride Grand Prix 2000, Royce Gracie had his a** handed to him on a plate by Kazushi Sakuraba!
As a side note regarding Kung Fu being "ineffective" against BJJ, the Chin Na techniques in Kung Fu could easily take out a BJJ fighter on the ground, if the kung fu guy knows how to apply it properly. I've seen a jiu-jitsu fighter in demonstration get his nose broken by a Kenpo guy, before they even hit the mat. The only thing this BJJ hype has done, is allow teachers of other styles to incorporate new techniques (or those which have been there for ages) into their curriculum that will allow BJJ to be defeated!

JWTAYLOR
07-23-2000, 11:50 PM
It's like playing cards with my brother's kids.

JWT

GinSueDog
07-23-2000, 11:53 PM
Hmmm...there seems to be a them vs. us attitude with some around here. I really do not understand why some people choose to blind themselves to the need of developing an area that until BJJ came to the lime light was pretty much neglected for the most part in this country and most of the world. I suggest trying it for yourself first, then make your judgements.-ED

P.S.-I know what you mean JWT. I give up.

------------------
"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[This message has been edited by GinSueDog (edited 07-24-2000).]

07-24-2000, 12:00 AM
OK, I can't believe I'm responding to one of these threads, but here goes. If you are a striker, and you do not train to both avoid takedowns AND protect yourself if taken down, you have left a gigantic opening in your personal style that may well lead to defeat. On the other hand, if you are a grappler, and do not train for both effective striking, and closing against a qiuck and powerfull puncher, then YOU, my friend, have left a gigantic opening in your personal style, that may well lead to defeat. The six month BJJ vs striker example can be valid, if the striker has no ground experience. But I have seen strikers, with 6 months training and a High School wrestling background, give some fairly skilled BJJ fighters all they could handle. As for me, I train in both striking and grappling, and anything else that looks like fun. If you prefer one over the other, great for you! but keep n mind, it is a personal preference, not the edict of the Lord.


edit those spelling errors, heh, heh.

[This message has been edited by SW (edited 07-24-2000).]

Knifefighter
07-24-2000, 12:07 AM
So where are all of these awesome Kung Fu masters hiding out?

DragonMaster
07-24-2000, 12:17 AM
Its really not so simple to get someone on the ground as you think if they are skilled at kung fu. When I sparred some grapplers before I saw so many chances to hurt them really bad, openings everywhere, but we were just doing friendly sparring so I didnt. Maybe you guys should try taking down a real Kung Fu master then YOU will understand.

Knifefighter
07-24-2000, 12:36 AM
Any good Kung Fu masters in the Los Angeles area that I might try taking down?

DragonMaster
07-24-2000, 12:41 AM
I woudnt recommend it, you might wind up blind, maimed or dead. Not worth it.

Chameleon
07-24-2000, 01:00 AM
Knifefighter:

Just a word of caution to you...If you've never experienced the power of an art like Zen Chi Fa (http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/index2.htm), then I'd suggest you do so before trying to submit a kung fu master.

Trying to take down a skilled Zen Chi Fa practicioner is akin to suicide.

[This message has been edited by Chameleon (edited 07-24-2000).]

GunnedDownAtrocity
07-24-2000, 01:22 AM
this is ****ing ridiculous. i appologize for being part of the childish and pointless thread preceeding this post. the only reason i posted at all was because i thought knifefighter . . the guy who actually started the thread . . wasnt giving kung fu credit where it was deserved. this isn't the case, and after he was question about it by myself and others he made it clear. everyone is going to think their art is the best . . period. it is a natural bias and there isnt a problem with it. howerver, the best fighter wins the fight . . . period. there is no style that is going to change that reality. someone may become a better fighter using bbj or kung fu, but if a bar brawler is a better fighter than these guys he will win. so love your stlye, respect others, and stop acting like pride slapped three year olds.

Chameleon
07-24-2000, 01:37 AM
GunnedDownAtrocity:

You can pretend that it is the person and not the art...But then, you've obviously never seen the deadly art of Zen Chi Fa (http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/index2.htm) either.

Braden
07-24-2000, 01:42 AM
KF - I *KNOW* there's good kungfu guys in LA, it's just a matter of finding them.

I'm way up in Canada, so I'm hardly familiar with the people down there, but you should post a new thread asking for peeps in LA who would be open to some friendly tests of skill.

The only guys I know in California are Mike Patterson, whose fighters have proven in the ring that they're excellent; and Adam Hsu, who is also bound to have some good students somewhere, but his people are in Palo Alto, Sunnyvale, and San Francisco, which are probably no closer to you than La Mesa.

Best wishes.

CommonSense
07-24-2000, 02:10 AM
What have these Kung Fu masters done or proven to make you believe that their techniques are so superior to BJJ? I say if you doubt brazilian jiu jitsu you should just go to a bjj academy and ask for a challenge match. I'm sure you would have no problem finding someone willing to fight you.

JWTAYLOR
07-24-2000, 02:18 AM
Zen Chi FA /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I knew that sounded familiar.


It's true, if ever faced with a true Zen Chi Fa master, Royce would **** his gi pants and run to pappa.

JWT

Brat
07-24-2000, 02:36 AM
I have an idea.....lets get ahold of the moderators and have them add a BJJ forum and when we all come to the conclusion that what we have studied for the past 10-15 years is all crap in the face of a pract with 6 months exp in BJJ, we can all go there and get enlightened

blacktsun
07-24-2000, 04:18 AM
PEOPLE! PEOPLE! PEOPLE!

This is getting down right stupid! I think the whole lot of you need to grow up! You're all acting worse than my two year old niece!

My god! You try to have a civilized conversation, and it turns into a "My sifu can beat your sifu" bs-ing match. Neither bjj nor kung fu is superior to the other. No matter what variable you plug in, it will still come down to the fighters involved.

So... THAT'S IT! YOU'RE ALL GROUNDED! GO TO YOUR ROOM WITH-OUT SUPPER! AND AN EXTRA THREE HOURS OF HORSE-STANCE TRAINING! It's obvious that many of you could use the dicipline.

And people wonder why I don't want kids of my own.....

GinSueDog
07-24-2000, 04:32 AM
Brat,
Hmmm...I don't see how it is different then a Kung Fu stylist saying he can not be taken to the ground, even though taking someone to the ground and submitting them is all that a BJJ stylist trains for. IMHO I really don't feel that anyone here is saying that all your training is crap, only some of it /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Seriously though, it is just a fact that few people train the ground as they should, and that it should be given some credit and not discounted because of a personal bias. Ground work is a very important area often ignored to much by too many. Train it, whether it is with high school wrestling, traditional Judo, Sambo, Shooto, or whatever but it should be trained and not ignored. Hey even three months of BJJ is good enough to allow you to hold your own on the ground.-ED

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"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

laughing tiger
07-24-2000, 12:53 PM
my point is BJJ is great, as are kung fu styles....and if a kung fu man thinks he cant be taken down, he is in for a big (and painful suprise) and if a BJJ guy thinks it's a given that he can just take a kung fu guy down, well...the same thing applies. It comes down to who is doing the fighting, ultimately.

DragonMaster
07-24-2000, 06:48 PM
Brat is right. Why dont all you bjj nutriders go find a bjj forum and go pound your chests there. Also your hero royce got his butt kicked by a little japanese guy, guess why: he couldnt take him down hahahahaha! You think its so hard to believe a kung fu master couldnt do the same? Time to turn off the ufc and wake up.

JWTAYLOR
07-24-2000, 07:22 PM
Has anyone else actually checked out the Zen Chi FA link?
**** funny stuff.

JWT

LEGEND
07-24-2000, 08:05 PM
DRAGONMASTER...Yup...ROYCE did get his ass whipped by SAKURABA...the no. 1 ranked middleweight submission fighter in the world! I like BJJ but it was great seeing someone beat ROYCE( big MOUTH ) down.

Paul DiMarino
07-24-2000, 08:27 PM
Don't forget:

August 27th Pride 10
-Renzo Gracie vs. Kazushi Sakuraba

It will be a great fight.

JWTAYLOR
07-24-2000, 08:29 PM
Wow,that was fast. When did this one get finalized? Any word on the rules?

JWT

Paul DiMarino
07-25-2000, 01:50 AM
Think it was finalized in the past couple days. I figure it will be regular Pride rules.

07-25-2000, 07:55 AM
"I woudnt recommend it, you might wind up blind, maimed or dead. Not worth it."

Well, we're in luck 'cause Knifefighter is already blind, four limb amputee walking zombie, so there's no real risk!
WARNING: Knifefighter's the most dangerous undead, no limbed blind fighter I've ever seen, so watch out. He'll bite your leg off. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Z (edited 07-25-2000).]

@xemili
07-25-2000, 08:30 AM
<Brat is right. Why dont all you bjj nutriders go find a bjj forum and go pound your chests there. Also your hero royce got his butt kicked by a little japanese guy, guess why: he couldnt take him down hahahahaha! You think its so hard to believe a kung fu master couldnt do the same? Time to turn off the ufc and wake up.>


So, basicly, what you're saying is that Kung-Fu is the best there is. Nothing else is needed. Nothing else is needed. Hmmmmmmmmm. I think someone is watching a bit too many Hong Kong KF films.
I don't do BJJ. I've dabbled in a bit of it (About 1 month) but not enough to seriously consider myself a practitioner. I can definately agree with you on the fact that BJJ guys have huge egos, but then again, so do many Kung-Fu guys. I can understand you people getting POed at the BJJers for bashing KF, but then again, how do you think the BJJers feel when Kung-Fu guys jump in and start prancing around, telling that KF can destroy BJJ easily.
I can easily tell you this. A guys that has been taking BJJ for 5 months, versus a guy that has been taking Kung-Fu for 5 months, will lose to the BJJ guy in a heartbeat.
Now, I don't know about the masters of the respective arts, but I do know that BJJ trains you to be effective in a very short time. (Which is something Kung-Fu lacks in)

Laughing Tiger is right though (Now he's a TRUE Kung-Fu practitioner that keeps an open mind) If you 'Kung-Fu masters' think that you can keep yourself from being taken down, I'm just gonna hope that your medical insurance sovers it. On the other hand, if BJJ guys think a take-down is given, and you'll get in unscathed, then you'd better hope those 'taps' on the head don't lower your IQ anymore. (That's the point to cross-training)


PS
I don't like Royce. And Sak will destroy Renzo.

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Any coward can fight a battle when he's sure of winning.
-George Elliot

chokeyouout2
07-25-2000, 10:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Knifefighter:
Laughing Tiger:
The reason that BJJ has so many techniques that are unique to it only is because it is just about the only style where two guys spend 95% of their time rolling around on the floor. The thousands of Chinese masters that you refer to spent the majority of their time developing standing, throwing and/or joint locking techniques, but didnÂ’t spend 95% ot their time rolling around on the ground. When you spend the majority of time doing something that most other people donÂ’t do much of, if at all, it stands to reason that you will develop things that are unique to that only. I have spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours, learning thousands of techniques from the different ground positions that most people would not even recognize, let alone understand, unless they had the same or more ground specific training.

For you guys to say that you know the same techniques is just ludicrous. It would be just as ludicrous for me to say I have seen all the techniques in monkey kung fu when I have not studied it. Unless you have spent hours upon hours with a person laying on top of you from the side, or with one leg wrapped inside the other, or with his feet in opposite directions as your, or sitting out towards your head, or sitting out towards your feet, or straddling your torso, or with you legs around his torso, you cannot even begin to imagine the variety of subtle techniques that are used from these positions. And that is only from the bottom. There are just as many techniques if not more that are done from the top position. And then there is with the gi or without the gi, not to mention pure submission grappling or Vale Tudo. This is why, unless you have extensive ground grappling training, I can pretty much guarantee that I can show anyone many, many techniques that he has never seen before.[/quote] knife where do you train? reality

chokeyouout2
07-25-2000, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Knifefighter:
Any good Kung Fu masters in the Los Angeles area that I might try taking down?[/quote]stay down home boy.check out www.doubleleg.com (http://www.doubleleg.com) or www.intheguard.com (http://www.intheguard.com)