Tam Tui Jut Sow PM

[CaptinPickAxe]

I found a teacher here that recently opened up a Mantis School in San Antonio, Tx. I haven't really found time to check out any classes, but It sounds sorta shady to me. Does anyone know of this style or has any heard of Enrique H. Alverez, D.Sc.?

BTW, The school is called "The Little Praying Mantis Kung-Fu Academy".

[Tainan Mantis]

Hey Capt'n,
Sounds fascintaing.
My guess is that this is an uncertified Wah Lum person who really likes the WL form called Little Mantis.
Keep us posted.

Ask him to show an example of the Wrestling hands(jut sao) and Tan Tuei.

[Meat Shake]

d@mn tainan, you're good.
Think you are completely right.
So we are looking at another cr@p school, no?

[ursa major]

Why not stop in at "The Little Praying Mantis Kung-Fu Academy" and pay a friendly visit ? That way you could find out first hand what they are about.

Best regards,
UM.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I plan on it. The reason why I ask is because I've never heard of Tam Tui Jut Sow Praying Mantis, but thats not saying much. I'm not a Mantis Coinnisour. Is this a ligitamate Mantis Branch?

[Tainan Mantis]

Meat,
I can't say they are cr@p just yet.
Wang Lang supposedly researched and combined different styles to make a system that would enable him to win fights.
If this "Little Mantis School" can whip my butt it is hard for me to say they are no good.

UM,
I would do what you say.

Captin,
Keep us posted.
Every once in a while someone says they found a new PM school and will tell us what happens after a visit... then we never hear from them again!
I hate that!

[KickingMantis]

Tong Long Jut Sow or wrestling hands is SUPPOSE to be the mantis part of what Wah Lum Tam Tui Pai is composed of as well as the Tam Tui System.

It may just be a another disgruntled former certified insructor of the Wah Lum School that left on his or her own.

Doesnt mean their kung fu is crap just means they chose a different path.

[yu shan]

Tainan Mantis,
What do you know of Jut Sao in America? Outside of Wah Lum, I don`t hear too much about this system in the States. Is there Wrestling Hands in Taiwan?

Like Tainan Mantis and Ursa Major put it, make a friendly visit. Ask to see Tan Tui and Jut Sao. Don`t leave us hanging! I`m with TM, finding a new GF school is important, fill us in on the details.

Possible JSPM teacher`s in this area:
Ruben Lerma
Rob Roy
Wallace Cupp

Unfortunate to the WL system , there lineage did not include the ling side of forms. What I have learned thru the Pong Lai System, I see Mantis in Wah Lum. Too bad they are not being taught.

[Ren Blade]

Tam Tui Jut Sow Praying Mantis is what Wah Lum is supposed to be. I trained Wah Lum 9 years ago. I believe this Little Praying Mantis School is probably run by a former Wah Lum practitioner.

[BeiTangLang]

Talked to him, he sounds like a nice guy.
He is teaching in San Antonio & Bulverde (my home-town).
He took Wah Lum in Boston for 16 years.
Enrique Alverez.
I'll most likely visit him on my next trip home.
Best Wishes to all,
~BTL

[Ren Blade]

That's cool. :cool:

[CaptinPickAxe]

I was waiting for BTL's input. I plan on visiting tommarrow. I talked with him also, and he spoke of his Pig Style Kung Fu that he learned in South America. Very Interesting, I'd say. But, I'll definitly let all of you know how it went.

[yu shan]

CaptinPickAxe

So how did your visit go? You were definitly going to let us know!

[BeiTangLang]

Yes, please let us know how things went as well as impressions.

[Meat Shake]

Kinda cut for time to visit... Will most likely pay a visit to him on wednesday.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'm having a hard time making it out there. His class goes on @ the same time and day as my Shuai Chiao. I'm definitly going, and yes, I'm going to let ya'll know...just maybe not for a short while:D

[Meat Shake]

Hmmm... I dont even know where to start.
Well, nice things first. He was a very nice man. Seemed quite humble.
Ok, on to the bad.
The explanation he gave to us as to why northern styles tend to focus more on kicks and aerial techniques, is that its rockier terrain inthe north and its easier to jump, and the south they were forced to fight close.
We learned "8 chain punches" and "Dropping horse". They moved in square patterns, actually quite similar to the tae kwan do I learned as a youngster. The blocks and strikes were rigid, and the "pig style"... Well... I need to see more to make an accurate statement about it.
Every time he explained something to us, he seemed like he was trying to convince himself as well. He continually improperly corrected us. The mechanics were bad. The techniques were interestingly not efficient...
Stances - 7 star stance - like a cat, but on the heel on the front foot. No explanation was given. Crushing stance, about like standing straight up. No explanation was given. Horse was a high horse stance, and shaky at that. Cat was cat..
Punches - Rigid. Back fist was a 90 degree angle to the upper arm, to attack a person standing directly to your side. He said to "Always imagine you are fighting a person that is the same size as you." Good advice? no. He also took it upon himself to examine the amazing profficiency of an inverted crescent, and how just one could knock someone out... :roll:
All in all, I feel that the best thing about it was that I got to work my stances mildly for a little while. Anything I missed Im sure CPA will cover.
That is all for now,
-Meat Shake:rolleyes:

Edit: Just wanted to reiterate that he was a very friendly person, and seemed a little nervous and most likely new to teaching. I appreciate the respect he gave me when we met him.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Quote of the night:
"Tam Tui Jut Sow has enough material to keep you busy for 5 years."

really...I didn't make this up...5 WHOLE years....

An interesting tidbit of information:

"Tam Tui Jut Sow is the only recognized Shaolin art here in the US."

So you 7 star guys and 8 steppers are outta luck, sorry.;)

He also said a semi-rude things to one of his students. It turns out that the student owns the gym...:eek:

Another point, He said he could knock someone out with a wierd ass twisted arm punch. Which, obviously, could not knock someone out.

He showed us an arm break where you pull the arm behind your head...Sadly, you have to bend the arm the other way which was very hard to do with this particular break.

Oddly, the whole class felt like Karate. I found myself clockwatching (something I don't have time to do in Shuai Chiao)
On top of that, good ol' Shake was yawning constantly.:D
I half-assed my stances and got complimented. Its good to know my 50% is better than most 150%. I'll agree with Shake on this though, the man was very nice and so was Thomas, but his Kung Fu was lacking to say the least.

-The Captin

[18elders]

good old wah lum, sorry you wasted an hour of your time,
I could've warned you but seeing is believing!
Was he certified? Not that it would've made a difference.
Just goes to show what some of us have been saying for a long time.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I have to say again, He was incredibly nice & had nothing but respect for us. So, I wouldn't go as far as to say he wasn't a good Shifu. I plan to go back and check out how his students are doing in a couple of months. Right now, he only has one formal student who is a white belt. I doubt the Martial Art, but I'm in no position to call him a bad Shifu. Only time will tell.

[yu shan]

Like Meat Shake put it, where the h e l l do you start?

Most special quote: "Seeing is believing" and then trying to believe what you just saw... errr, and heard! Go check any of there school`s in the US. If you are a serious PM practitioner, need not make the visit, take the hour and get a massage.

The "bashing of Thomas" is a frequently practiced teaching tool. This is handed down from the top (grandteacher). So some teachers I knew, of course emulate the actions of the GT. In other words, ridiculing of students and instructors, an exceptable practice. Even the Shifu`s are vunerable, umm the convincing of oneself.

And no one in this style can lay a hand on TM. JMHO!

[michael j]

Hi Guys.
This guy isn't Wah Lum. He WAS a mid-level practioner 10 years ago when he stopped studying after approx. 5 years in.( At the time he trained at my school in Concord , Mass.) Five years of study followed by approx. 10 years rest does not a good martial artist make. Sounds like he got the Respect part down well though. As it turns out, that part is in short supply throughout the CMA community. Anyway...
Try another school, where the teacher isn't interpeting what he doesn't understand.
Good Luck.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Mike J

He trained @ your school? Do you know any Pig Kung Fu? He showed us some, but didn't really go indepth with it. To be honest, I'm kinda skeptical it exists. But, then again, theres a lot I don't know:D

[michael j]

CaptinPickAxe wrote:
"He trained @ your school? Do you know any Pig Kung Fu?"

. I try not to eat too much .

[Tainan Mantis]

fascinating!
I enjoyed the critique of the school.
It seems to have been fairly and respectably written considering the outcome of the class.

Pig.
There is mountain pig fist.
A form of the di gong school(if I remember).
You see that was the form I was learning that caused me to pop my eardrum and get the tumor in the first place.
reason for the name is that your entire body gets filthy from practicing this type of ground boxing.
You are as dirty as a pig rolling down the mountain.

[yu shan]

Michael J

Thanks for the clarification, so this guy trained in Concord? Five years of training followed by Ten years of couch potatoe, not good. As for trying another school, try out the south Tampa school. Dying to hear what an experienced MA thinks of this school.

Wooaa, a dirty pig rolling down the mountain? I`m too old for ground boxing... I think.

[Lohan Fury]

Pig Kung Fu..lol

I've seen it before. While watching it I thought of the old man practicing it "What is wrong with this guy?". It's a little to out there for my tastes, but it's there in one form or another.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ok, this one pulled me out of retirement.

No way that guy trained Wah Lum for 16 years. 16 weeks maybe. I'm almost inclined to think the whole story is a setup to 'prove WL is no good'.

yu shan
"As for trying another school, try out the south Tampa school. Dying to hear what an experienced MA thinks of this school."
Send them to my school. You want Wah Lum I'll give you Wah Lum.

18elders
"good old wah lum, sorry you wasted an hour of your time,
I could've warned you but seeing is believing!"
I feel for ya man. Good thing Pong Lai came along because you definitely missed the boat at Wah Lum. I'm still amazed at how people can train for so long and leave so clueless.

Meat Shake, CaptinPickAxe
In his defense (which he may not deserve since he appears to be scamming) I'd say he was going easy on beginners and offering them encouragement. I do that with beginners. But say you have previous experience and it's a different story.

By the way I have a teenager who got a brown belt in TKD. His mom verified this. He has trouble with 8 Chain Punch, Cut Eyebrow Kick, etc. I see NO previous training in him at all.

michael j
How's it going? I think maybe this guy trained a lot of Takes One's Dough. What do you think?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Check this guy out if he's not too far. One of Wallace Cupp's guys I believe.

http://www.jademountain.org/index.html

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ok, I went out and got some lunch and cooled off a little. Sorry if my post was insulting to yu shan or 18 Elders but I just don't believe you guys are so dumb (correct me if I'm wrong) you didn't have a clue what all those funny stances and arm movements were. I also think your WL teacher is in the "I know how to use it" category which makes those comments very insulting to him and I know that is not your intention.

The schools evaluation seemed fair and based on that info it appears the teacher is being less than honest. 5 years of WL training and 10 years of whatever doesn't equal 15 years of WL. He doesn't seem to know Tam Tui Jut Sow (WL) too well and since that seems to be the main style of the school I would hope he shuts down before he corrupts too many beginners plus he's making WL look bad. Now you can see why Master Chan wants only certified teachers and only authorizes those schools to teach the system. And anybody who has trained or even seen WL would be suspicious at the high, shaky stances. 18 Elders and yu shan would have to agree that they got some solid leg strength from their WL training.

Oh well, maybe he is just nervous and never taught before. Maybe he needs time to get back into it after taking 10 years off. I just wouldn't use him or his school as fair representation of the WL style especially since he isn't certified or authorized to teach the system.

[yu shan]

Yup it`s good to keep that blood sugar level. Actually I think I was pretty darned smart for getting out, but dumb for staying in this style for 11 years. But like a friend of mine has put it...The style`s that we train in are often governed by our opportunities. So I went with what was available.

MC is by no means picky, I`ve witnessed some individuals making the level of Shifu, that I wouldn`t trust to teach 8-chain punch. Eight-chain punch teaches you how to fight against mutiple attackers. LOL, this exercise is a joke, and should not be taught.

Yea, WL does put alot of emphasis on leg strength. I found out just how valuable all this leg training got me when I discovered it doesn`t help you much when fighting an experienced Mantis fighter. (my Shrfu) Yup, leg strength right out the window, cause I had my ars handed to me. The leg strength does help with Lion Dancing.

I`m sure this Shifu was intimidated by the visit of CPA & MS. We all know the sizing up of our apponent. You can tell if the dude is wired for inflicting pain. Anyway, if he was in my area, I`d drop by and introduce. We should wish him the best.

HLL

I`ve spent alot of time with your style, Tampa, Orlando and Boston. In no school did I ever see anyone fighting PM. All I ever saw was kickboxing, not that there is anything wrong with kb. Seen some tuff motha`s kick boxing ( err not WL). I never witnessed MC teaching applications-fighting etc. Nor did any Shifu ever get this,that I ever heard of. Just ask tracy sean arthur on and on. We keep inviting you over to see how we train. I would like for you to stand in front of my Shrfu and you do your "made up" techniques. Compared to handed down treasures from our Grand Teachers, coupled with our intensity. You sir are really missing out. Yes you are a tallented Man, but brainwashed. Only the smart ones figure all this out... and leave.

[mantiskilla]

Hahahahahahahahaha! i have to agree with yu shan on this. You keep doing elbow to toe, and i will learn kung fu! :D
________
N02 vaporizer (http://no2vaporizers.com)

[18elders]

i like a nice debate now and then!!

Ok, my responce on clueless.
Here is a comparison of our different teachers bio's.

Your Master: Master Chan- Trained under wah lum's LKS when he was 6 years old for 3 or 4 years. Then continued training with his kung fu brothers(what did they know????)



Our Master: Master Shr Zheng Zhong-
His main teacher was shifu Zhang De Kui from Qi Xia County in Shandong province who taught him Mi Men Tang Lang Quan (Secret Door Mantis Boxing). In addition to his training in Mi Men Tang Lang Quan studied other tang lang quan styles under the following masters:
* Shifu Sun Rong Zhai from Mou Ping County (Shandong province) taught him Qi Xing Tang Lang Quan (Seven Stars Mantis Boxing) and Mi Zong Quan (Lost Track Boxing)
* Shifu Zhu Jing Chang from Qing Dao (Shan Dong Province) taught him Qi Xing Tang Lang Quan (Seven Stars Mantis Boxing)
* Shifu Luan Xing Fu from Qing Dao (Shan Dong Province) taught him Mei Hua Tang Lang Quan (Plumb Flower Mantis Boxing), San Hui Jiu Zhuai, Yang Qi Gong and Pai Da Fa conditioning methods.
* Shifu Hao Geng Sheng and shifu Wang Yan Yi from Shan Dong Province taught him Qi Xing Tang Lang Quan (Seven Stars Mantis Boxing)
* Shifu Li Hong Jie taught him Mei Hua Tang Lang Quan (Plumb Flower Mantis Boxing), Da Qiang (Big Spear), Qi Gong and Tai Ji Quan. Shifu Shi Zheng Zhong would drive his motorcycle 2 hours North every weekend to study under shifu Li Hong Jie.
* Shifu Zhang Xiang Shan from Shan Dong Province taught him Liu He Tang Lang Quan (Six Harmonies Mantis Boxing)
* Shifu Wei Xiao Tang from Shan Dong Province taught him Ba Bu Tang Lang Quan (Eight Steps Mantis Boxing)
* Shifu Gao Dao Sheng taught him Chang Quan Tang Lang Quan (Long Boxing Praying Mantis).
* Cui Song Shan, elder brother of shifu Li Hong Jie, from Ji Long (a port city that is located in north of Taiwan) taught him Mei Hua Tang Lang Quan (Plumb Flower Mantis Boxing)
* Shifu Zhao Zhu Qi in Hong Kong in 1990, taught him Tai Ji Tang Lang Quan (Supreme Praying Mantis Boxing).

In addition to tang lang quan he studied other gong fu styles, for example when he was 10 years old he started learning from 80 years old master, shifu Chen Kai the Bai He Quan, White Crane Boxing. Shifu Shi Zheng Zhong also studied:
* Bei Shao Lin Chang Quan (Northern Shao Lin Long Boxing) under shifu Jiang Xun Shi from Qing Dao (Shan Dong)
* Tai Ji Quan, Xing Yi Quan and Ba Gua Zhang under shifu Zhang Shi Rong from Hebei Province
* Bei Pai Luo Han Quan, (Northern School of Luo Han Boxing) under shifu Gong Wen Dou; and
* Chang Quan (Long Boxing) and San Da exercises under shifu Wang Jue Zhen from Si Chuan.
Shifu Shi Zheng Zong has original notes written shifu Li Kun Shan as well as his medal that shifu Li won in the spear competion in 1933.
Shifu Shi Zheng Zong is renowned in Taiwan for his extensive knowledge on the history, theory, and application of Tang Lang Quan. He prepared a study of tang lang quan and make some adjustments and revisions, worked on tang lang quan body exercise training method and unified the applications and the use of the techniques. His favorite forms are Mei Hua Tang Lang Zhai Yao Route 2 and Mi Men Tang Lang Lan Jie.
Shifu Shi Zheng Zong graduated from the Taiwan Police Academy and later served with the Taiwan police force for several years.
He is quite active within the Kuoshu Association and has been sent several times overseas as delegate and head coach of the Chinese Taipei wushu team from 1990 to 1998.




Lets take a poll: who would you rather train with and who do you think has more kung fu knowledge?


Myself and Yu spent over 10 years each in WL, so we have that to compare to Pong lai. You have no experience in Pong lai so how can you compare your training to ours?

One of my WL kung fu brothers has been in WL for 13 years, he met Master Shr and trained with him for a weekend, he said he learned more in one weekend with master shr than he has in 13 years of WL!

I know many wah lum sifus, the don't learn crap except form after form.
I know you think your supposed to dream up the drills and applications. If that is so why pay master chan to learn a form? you would save more money buying tae bo tapes and dreaming stuff up.
You guys are missing out on so much stuff it isn't funny.
Every sport has a coach or trainer, they teach the person the execution and body mechanics or techniques of their sport, they dont say go dream it up yourself.
Imagine our air force telling our pilots, "here is your fighter jet, turn it on and knock yourself out"
They are taught the ins and outs of the jet, what it can do, how to do it. theory in dog fights etc.

I have taken many a wah lum seminar, only form after form, we never learned a drill, application or anything. Never made any contact with each other at all.
Now they scam you by having to go on a cruise booked by MC's wife's travel agency to go to a seminar and learn another form. Or do their sifu testing at a resort in tampa, what a scam.
I think i would rather do my testing at a kung fu school or better yet the Wah lum temple. Not a hotel resort.

Your good friend MS was at the temple for many years, he agrees with us abouth the training, we get so many PM from ex wah lum students who left on their own(no grudge against wl) and say the didn't learn anything, just forms.

You all think if you stay in wah lum long enough he will teach you guys the secret wah lum techniques, yes, they are so secret NOBODY knows them!

How long have you been there? 12 years of support to wah lum yet they can't even send someone over to help you out in a demo, or even come visit your school?

We have a student who trained wah lum in gainesville(he lives there), he would rather drive 3 hours(one way) to Pong lai and train with us. Why would anyone do that? Think about it.

It is like being in a bad relationship, you know it sucks but don't get out of it because you feel like you spent so much time in it.

Master Shr will be here in the beginning of the year, i suggest coming to see him(if Wah lum allows it). Even if you can't do a seminar with him, come talk to him.
As far as i remember we have soldiers dying for our freedom but you guys can't do what you want. Very odd?


I like you and have nothing agains you personally HL, and we have known each othere for a long time. I just hate to see people waste their time and get the shaft in WL when they have a good interest in kung fu.

But if you are happy with what you are doing that is great.

Have a nice Thanksgiving and i hope your school is doing well.

[michael j]

Hey boys,

To my new-to-this-forum viewpoint, you guys are making a classic 'apples to oranges' comparison that is inherently flawed.

From what I know of the Pong Lai style it relies on extensive ling form training to develop the classic CMA attributes in their practitioners. I hope I'm right on that. It's an 'apple'.

Wah Lum goes about it a more solitary way, much less reliance on the 'ling' side to develop the attributes. That doesn't mean they do not develop, but certainly in a different 'style'. It's an 'orange'.

But that is supposed to be the beauty of the CMA, isn't it? Many different styles that diverge at the beginning and middle, only to converge again at the end. Only thing is, one can't rush to 'get' there. Otherwise you just end up looking foolish,... later.


18 Elders:
Your Master's bio looks fantastic,.. but now he has students in the U.S.... like Master Chan, who has had American students for close to 40 years. Some who even choose to talk of him and his style like you do. Western students are funny that way... will Pong Lai be spared the onslaught of the disconnected Western mindset and its need to create diversion before understanding? Just read the Forum in 40 years, or better yet...
don't.

[CaptinPickAxe]

So Wah Lum is a "closed door" school when it comes to showing techniques? If this is true, then that may explain why I didn't see anything I haven't seen before when visiting the school. I'm still wet behind the ears when it comes to Mantis, but I'm learning.
So, please, correct me if I'm wrong.

The TTJS shifu is having a belt exam on monday. His son will be testing. This seems like a good time to get a grasp on what kind of shifu he is. Its a shame that it falls on Shuai Chiao night, so I won't be making it.

[bung bo]

glad to see you still have your edge yu shan. just kidding. never lost it that i know of. 18elders--awesome to post GM Shr's bio. he's got a lot of experience we can all benifit from. definately going to be in tampa when he comes over.
i never studied wah lum but i've heard enough to know i don't want to.(i.e. apps) really though, how do you learn to fight without being shown and then training apps? the ling side was developed to preserve the appropriate counter to the bung side and after you've trained the technique multiple times you begin to understand the mechanics of different attacks and counters and then you begin to see the bigger picture. (not all, just more) also training the ling side with different people is very important to learn as many people's "flavors" as you can. i don't just mean in forms, but all the drills. i train a good bit alone, but without the two-person stuff my progress would be way slower and skills way lower.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Touche! Got me on a few points.
Debating mode: ON.
Hmmmm, I never learned the "The "bashing of Thomas" is a frequently practiced teaching tool" part. If that's how you taught it seems to be your problem. Kind of like blaming child abuse or molestation on being abused or molested when you were young. Doesn't fly. It doesn't matter whether MC or any WL Sifus "bash" their students or anyone else I still do what is right and work hard to keep myself from doing what is wrong (like bashing students). But then I believe in always trying to better myself as a person and not just trying to be a better martial artist.

"Eight-chain punch teaches you how to fight against mutiple attackers"
Hmmmm, wrong. Guess you really didn't learn.

"I found out just how valuable all this leg training got me when I discovered it doesn`t help you much when fighting an experienced Mantis fighter."
The leg strength is needed to apply the WL techniques (some are pretty tough) but since you didn't know how to apply them I'm not surprised you landed on your arse. Extensive leg strength is not a neccessity for some styles. Apparently Pong Lai doesn't rely on leg strength but WL does. Back to apples and oranges.

"I never witnessed MC teaching applications-fighting etc. "
Doesn't mean he doesn't do it, just that you personally haven't seen it. I have.

"We keep inviting you over to see how we train."
I have seen Pong Lai training and in competition (but not fighting or sparring). You guys do elbow to toe, right, but with you other arm high in the air (mantiskilla take note of this).

"I would like for you to stand in front of my Shrfu and you do your "made up" techniques. "
I'm flattered you think I'm such a prodigy that I could "make up" techniques. I've made up some show forms and 2-man drills but all the techniques come from WL and I apply them according to what I've been taught or discovered on my own.

"Only the smart ones figure all this out... and leave."
But they couldn't figure out 1st Form? I don't get it.

"You have no experience in Pong lai so how can you compare your training to ours?"
I can't and I don't. I thought I commented on the TTJS teacher and my frustration with you obsession for WL bashing. Oops, there's that word again. Learn that from your WL teacher?

"One of my WL kung fu brothers has been in WL for 13 years, he met Master Shr and trained with him for a weekend, he said he learned more in one weekend with master shr than he has in 13 years of WL!"
If you have a good product then sell the product on it's own merits. Don't knock someone else down just to make yourself look taller.

"you would save more money buying tae bo tapes and dreaming stuff up."
Tae Bo is devoid of apps, WL isn't.

"You guys are missing out on so much stuff it isn't funny."
I'm also missing out on good Wing Chun, Choy Lay Fut, Hung Gar, Shaolin, etc. Sorry, I can only train one system at a time.

"Your good friend MS was at the temple for many years, he agrees with us abouth the training, we get so many PM from ex wah lum students who left on their own(no grudge against wl) and say the didn't learn anything, just forms."

And his current training consists of ......
Sorry MS and others, couldn't let this one go.

"You all think if you stay in wah lum long enough he will teach you guys the secret wah lum techniques"
Hmmm, wrong. Speak for yourself. I've said publicly that if any secrets exist I'll never get them. But I still think the best stuff is at the higher levels, proven by the curriculum. I'm not really waiting for anything.

"As far as i remember we have soldiers dying for our freedom but you guys can't do what you want."
Not entirely true. But why do you think it's ok to treat your Sifu differently than you treat your parents? Is your Sifu in charge of your training or are you? Do you pick and choose what you learn?

michael j,
Very well said.

[18elders]

Hua lin, your responce to Yu Shan about 8 chain punch:

"Eight-chain punch teaches you how to fight against mutiple attackers"
Hmmmm, wrong. Guess you really didn't learn".


Now this is a direct quote from the wah lum handbook for testing requirements.
Question #14: what does 8 chain punch teach you?
Answer-proper breathing, fast direction changing and BLOCKING AND STRIKING MULTIPLE OPPONENTS.

I guess Yu Shan did learn!! So how is he wrong if that is what it says in the handbook answer for testing questions?

Leg strength: john was doing some conditioning drills with a wah lum guy who had trained about 5 years in wl, he couldn't shake johns stance and the next thing you saw was the wl'er flying through the air. I would say john's leg strength is good, i know because i have felt the pain. He also does tam tuis on my shoulders during lion dancing, yes with the lion on him and standing on my shoulders on one leg.


Michael J.- i hope i am around in 40 years.
definite WL attitude, don't read the forum, don't compete in tournaments , don't do masters demos.
Why is it WL is always trying to keep us out of everything?
Yes we are not allowed in tournaments or demos, or MC will not support them with WL students.
Why do you guys say learn friendship and fellowship at the end of every class but don't mean it?

If you are ever in tampa please come in and train with us.

[mantiskilla]

Hua Lin,
guess you took me a little too literally. i dont know how pong lai trains, but i do know wah lum. i did learn some very good self-discipline, and i did get into great shape, but i didnt learn kung fu. please dont give me the response that kung fu is hard work, so i learned kung fu, if i said that to my Master i would be on my butt. thats not kung fu. anyway, at least Pong Lai tells people to look around at other schools before theirs, instead, WL requires blinders and earplugs. why is that? i just know my own experience, and i still know people in WL, and they are still in that state of purgatory," maybe youll get the apps some day." whatever.:rolleyes:
________
AdorableBrina (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/AdorableBrina/)

[SaMantis]

Sorry, 18elders and Hua Lin (much respect, sifu, nonetheless), but I cannot agree that this is a debate. This is a pi$$ing contest. There's a difference.

I'm gonna come onto this thread and say this once, and then I'm leaving it and not posting again. It's up to you to take my advice, or leave it.

Some Pong Lai'ers on this board have chosen to set themselves against any and all things "Wah Lum," for reasons they have discussed above and elsewhere, ad nauseum. They regularly shout down any Wah Lum student or sifu who tries to post on this forum. Is it any wonder that WL'ers rarely post on the board anymore?

We come to KFO for the same reasons (nearly) everyone else does. We come to communicate with the martial arts and mantis communities, to find out what other folks are up to, to trade advice and give encouragement where needed. We don't come here to fight with people from other schools, especially about pointless stuff.

Pong Lai'ers, when you participate in discussions on other forum threads, you have interesting information and contribute to informative and positive discussions on several levels. But on this thread you've slipped back into pointless cr@p that does nothing but diminish you, your school, and the mantis community.

Frankly, your problems with Wah Lum (on and off this forum) are problems that you created. You chose to walk that path, no one chose it for you. If it's a difficult one for you, that's no one else's problem but your own.

I'm going to repeat something I said well over a year ago, something you apparently did not listen to: Forget what happened in the past, and move forward with your lives. Train hard and better yourselves and your school. Win respect by being excellent martial artists and excellent people, not by tearing others down -- even people you don't like. In a nutshell, Shut up and train.

Thank you and peace,

SaMantis

[yu shan]

Man, I can`t remember when I`ve laughed this much. Thank you Hua Lin for a comical day reading your posts. You are more brainwashed than I thought. I`m surprised, because I know your not happy with your situation. Through personal e-mails and pm`s I`ve tried to be supportive of your (dilemma) which isn`t a dilemma at all. Because you choose to stay in this miserable situation.

At this point, I really don`t care if you ever learn what we do. Stay in the dark! Continue on this path... and let us know what you know after 40 years... just another southern form. And does MC teach you anything out of your form? Does he spend time doing applications or two-person exercises out of your forms? NO

If Wah Lum is so great. The next thing to do, if you don`t mind sir, is to cross hands. I will gladly give up some of my training time with my Shrfu, and drive over to you. I`m shocked that I even waste my time with all this. I`m always up for a fight! Book it!

Let me know

[flem]

my god, i havent even looked at this forum in over a year.... same bs.... get over it... re-read mamantis post above!!!

[Lohan Fury]

Okay, though my thoughts may not matter, I feel the need to interject.

A friendly exchange of blows may be what we all need in the way of resolving this matter. Should it actually take place? That's the up to both parties, and it is NOT a matter of losing face. And obviously, should it actually ever happen, none of us will ever hear of the results, so don't bother asking..

If two people wanna throw blows on this forum OR in real life, it's their choice. The rest of us should just stay out of it. And hey, if you don't like what you read, go to another page, to put it bluntly.

I apologise if I have stepped on any toes..

Amitabha,
Luohan Fury

[18elders]

just defending myself from your WAHLUM STUDENTS COMMENTS.
so pm him your comments and get off my back.
wah:mad: wah:mad: wah:mad: wah:mad: lum

[Olethros]

Some Pong Lai'ers on this board have chosen to set themselves against any and all things "Wah Lum," for reasons they have discussed above and elsewhere, ad nauseum. They regularly shout down any Wah Lum student or sifu who tries to post on this forum. Is it any wonder that WL'ers rarely post on the board anymore?

Yep, that's exactly why I never started posting on this board.
There seems to be a few disgruntled ex-WL'ers on this forum who have a lot to say about how their current training is so much superior to their former training for a variety of reasons.
Personally, my current WL experience meets all my current martial arts needs so I take no notice of their comments.

I've also felt no need to give my two cents on their "no techniques are taught" comments because I have been taught plenty of techniques, as well as trained with other students on applying those techniques in class. I am taught in a way that is different from their claims and accusations, so I've never felt a need to comment one way or another.

[yu shan]

If anything, we have brought our friend flem out of retirement. Welcome back!

The Wah Lum Shrfu in Kissimmee Fla. is a friend, I just want the best for him. But there comes a time when you need not talk, but test your art. There is nothing wrong with two Shrfu`s getting together and crossing hands in a friendly manner. Hua Lin Laoshi is a good guy, it will be a learning experience for the both of us.

flem, how in the heck can you and I get together?

[isol8d]

Originally posted by yu shan

Yea, WL does put alot of emphasis on leg strength. I found out just how valuable all this leg training got me when I discovered it doesn`t help you much when fighting an experienced Mantis fighter. (my Shrfu) Yup, leg strength right out the window, cause I had my ars handed to me.


Actually, didn't you find that leg training didn't help you when crossing hands with your Shrfu. Do you normally expect to be able to hang with a master of a style?

Just had to call you out on that, but on to a real question:

Have you found that your Pong Lai training has made you any more effective when sparring against an experienced Mantis fighter? What about a fighter outside of your style? Or against a martial artist outside of the CMA's?

[Ren Blade]

The internet is a tough place to prove anything through text. I think people should arrange a time and place to have a sparring match to really settle things and then come back here and post about how the fight went and how it ended.

That's what traditional CMArtists did back then in ancient times. They talked bout this and that style then went ahead and sparred each other. That's pretty traditional. The by-product of Kung Fu is to be able to fight. It's the core and primary reason that it was created. So to honor the ancient masters and your current master is to have the ability to fight with your style. I wouldn't mind crossing hands with anyone here. I'm just gonna suggest full sparring gear (gloves like those used in UFC with the free fingers to grab, headgear with cage mask, body padding, knee/shin pads, and groin protection(cup) cause I want to be able to drive home in one piece after. :p

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Well I guess we degraded this forum enough so I'm going to bow out once again. Thanks for reminding me SaMantis. Here are my parting comments:

I don't believe I've ever said anything negative regarding Pong Lai training, apps, credentials, etc. My issue is not about 'my style can beat up your style' but rather the continued bashing of WL for doing things that are consistant with other schools, styles, ways of teaching and Masters. Why WL is singled out has more to do with the personal issues of those doing the bashing.

Now you guys know you are always welcome to stop by my place at any time (as long as you don't disrupt class). If not I'll swing by again if I'm in the area. The offer goes to anyone on this forum. I've even invited Merry Prankster to come out when he's in town so we could discuss grappling vs kung fu. I could certainly use the practice and since I haven't seen Pong Lai in action yet I think it would be interesting.

As far as Pong Lai vs Wah Lum you guys seem to skirt around actualling making a challenge. When all this started a year ago I relayed MC's opinion on the matter although I chose much nicer words. I believe I said all challenges to Wah Lum would be handled by the Temple. What I was told to say was if you think Wah Lum can't fight then come to the Temple and find out. You guys know what the open pea**** feathers mean. I know John went to see MC previously and it didn't go well. I give him credit for attempting to resolve things but since that route failed there seems to be only 2 ways left to deal with it. Challenge Wah Lum or let it go and move on.

Now if you have an issue with a particular WL Sifu, whether it's me or someone in your area, I suggest you take it to them personally and try to work something out.

Also, I have posted that I learned some apps. Others in and out of WL have posted that they learned apps. Ex-students of your old WL Sifu (AD) said that he taught apps. You might not have been satifisfied with your training but don't say you didn't learn any.

mantiskilla
I guess I did take you too literally. I broke the cardinal rule about fighting (arguing/debating) while angry. Too easy to make mistakes and I did make mistakes.

On a technical issue:
"the ling side was developed to preserve the appropriate counter to the bung side "
First off I'm not knocking 2 man sets or ling forms. I can definitely see the value there but ....
What's appropriate in fighting? And why are you concerned with fighting your KF brother? I would think a good ling side would consist of 'the other guy's' moves. Your techniques were developed to fight against other styles. I don't believe they should be applied against your own style although I admit it helps to know the counters just in case. Still, the focus should be on fighting others, not your own. But as you can see I generally have a different opinion from the 'experts'.

18elders
Technically you got me (been a long time since my 1st test and I haven't tested anyone yet) and I can just hear the WL lurkers wondering if I've completely cracked up. Note my comment to mantiskilla. My view on 1st Exercise (8 Chain Punch) is that it's just an introductory coordination exercise. They all have applications that could be attributed to them including the i-bay, bow, elbow to toe, pow choy etc. but for the most part they are entry level exercises. Holding it up as an example of WL fighting techniques is in poor taste. I use it to teach coordination, direction changing, and it's the first introduction to making contact with an opponent (although the 'opponent' is just sticking out an arm). I don't start 2 man drills until 2nd Exercise.

Oh, and your comment on leg strength. yu shan seems to think it's useless while you give a good example of the power of John's leg strength. Guess it's just WL leg strength that's bad while PL leg strength is good. Proven by the fact that a 5 year student of WL couldn't budge a PL Sifu with 9 years of training. Guess we all say stupid things now and then.

isol8d
Yep, I remember the post where yu shan was thankful for the WL leg training. yu shan is ok if you catch him on a good day.

[flem]

has it occurred to any of you that perhaps pong lai's leg strength is a result of his early training in wah lum!!!

[mantisben]

Originally posted by yu shan
...
But there comes a time when you need not talk, but test your art.
...
By "test your art", do you mean test "Pong Lai", or do you mean test "Wah Lum"? Judging from your posts, and your Sifu's credentials, you don't need to test "Pong Lai". I don't believe you feel the need to test Pong Lai's effectiveness. I, for one, don't doubt Pong Lai's effectiveness.

Maybe you mean "test your art" of Wah Lum? According to your posts, you studied Wah Lum for over 10 years. After 10 years of studying Wah Lum, I think you have a pretty good idea of what Wah Lum has to offer. Good or bad. Why would YOU need to test it? I could understand someone who hasn't studied Wah Lum wanting to test it, but not someone who has studied it for over 10 years.

Maybe you mean Hua Lin Laoshi should test "Wah Lum". What if he doesn't feel the NEED to test "Wah Lum"? Maybe he has already tested it, and you weren't around to witness it?

Based on Hua Lin Laoshi's posts, he is satisfied with what "Wah Lum" has to offer, even if, at times, he hasn't been "happy" with his situation. It hasn't been soo bad for him that he would speak bad about "Wah Lum" or their training, on this thread (maybe he has in previous posts, on other threads?).

You on the other hand, moved on from training at Wah Lum after spending over 10 years there, and started training at Pong Lai, and it is meeting your needs. You, Yu Shan, are satisfied with what "Pong Lai" has to offer, and "Hua Lin Laoshi" is satisfied with what "Wah Lum" has to offer.

Yu Shan, if you represent "Pong Lai", consult with your Sifu about fighting with the Sifu of another MA School. Even if you DON'T represent "Pong Lai", consult with your Sifu, anyway before fighting with the Sifu of another MA School.

Maybe you already have... (a whole lotta "maybe"s in my post, huh?)

[woliveri]

Here comes my 2 cents.

I have not trained in Pong Lai but after my time with Wah Lum I did train with a Vietnamese Man who did show me the light. He taught me Tai Mantis sets and Vietnamese Martial arts that he learned in Vietnam and he learned these the hard way. He kicked my @ss, showed applications in Kung Fu and Taiji. And, he didn't hold anything back, play games.

I'm not training martial arts any longer, just qi gong but if I were going to pick a school between WL and PL I wouldn't give a second thought. It would be PL.

I think this thread serves a purpose other than conparing the two schools. It gives others interested in Mantis information on choosing a school.

I would say that WL is a good Forms and Weapons school. Good to build a foundation. I would stay away from seminars and if you really wanted to train WL then I would say train to 8th level and then haul @ss.

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantisben,
My understanding of Yushan's statement about testing the art is somewhat different from yours.

I take it to mean that there comes a time when you should fight another skilled man and see if your years of training enables you to win fights.

So the question is,
-How should I train in order to be invincible(the ideal, don't take me literally).
-Is this method of training going to make me an invincible fighter?

[18elders]

Hua lin, i don't think you need to bow out, it is not like we are two strangers who don't know each other. We have talked in person and i think it is fine here, if sa or others aren't happy they don't have to read it.


Flem-he said it is not from his early days, the mantis stances are different than WL and it is from that and proper technique, not from holding stances for long periods.