Why do kickboxers have such poor power generation? [Archive]

lowsweep

10-31-2003, 06:32 PM

Maybe you have seen an aerobic kickboxer or one who doesn't train competitively? I know two guys who are competitive at amateur level, although one has muay thai experience. The first time I held the heavy bag for him I woke up the next morning with a bruise all the way up both thighs. That was from the power of his kicks going through the everlast institutional/military grade heavy bag. He has trained with some top-notch guys in cali, but we are talking some serious power. But then I also know several "kickboxers" who couldnt kick their way out of a grocery bag with a hole in it. It all depends on how they train. An american kickboxer should have comparable power to an american boxer (generally less in my experience, but still comparable).

Musicalkatachmp

10-31-2003, 09:25 PM

Four words for you:

Not...enough....cha-eeeee

Ikken Hisatsu

11-01-2003, 12:08 AM

I know some practitioners of kickboxing who would be all to happy to demonstrate their kicking power on your ribs. you can wear padding if you like, less cuts for the funeral.

Seriously, thats like saying boxers have no hook power or (good) TKD people can't kick.

rogue

11-01-2003, 01:06 PM

Oh they may have some power but it's not refined or economical. It may have to do with the training kickboxers do.

The real original laughing Louie.

CrippledAvenger

11-01-2003, 04:10 PM

Rogue, we're just holding back on you. If we unleashed the full power of our Qi, you'd be a smoking pile of ash and dogi making a stain on the carpet.

It's for your own good.

rogue

11-01-2003, 05:35 PM

So you doubt that qi could make power generation more refined and efficient? :mad:

The real original laughing Louie.

jon

11-02-2003, 05:11 AM

The inherent problem with kickboxing is that it takes a small number of highly applicable techniques and then trains them to the point where they become easily accessable useable weapons.

The other big problem being that the constant hitting of actual targets in pad form has the nasty ability to actualy over time increase the power of the practioner due to the instant feedback though the pad.

Then when you add to this the fact that kickboxers spend a lot of there class time doing conditioning and strength training and its pretty easy to see why they hit like little fairys and are incapable of doing any *real* fighting....

Nice troll Rogue but i love my kickboxing, it go's well with my chi blasts :D

BentMonk

11-02-2003, 03:02 PM

Obviously Rouge has only been hit by Bruce from Tekken 2. If he had been hit by a living breathing Muay Thai fighter, he would be unable to type for a while. :D

Liokault

11-02-2003, 04:02 PM

jon

Then when you add to this the fact that kickboxers spend a lot of there class time doing conditioning and strength training and its pretty easy to see why they hit like little fairys and are incapable of doing any *real* fighting....

This is sad but indeed true.

A kickboxing friend of mine once went to a very good karate club and just could not cut it at point sparring. Very humiliating for him.

Every time he tried to score a point he totaly miss judged the range and actualy hit the guy! He had no ability to controle him self at all. You have to ask your self just what so called kick boxers think martial arts are all about.

Meat Shake

11-02-2003, 04:08 PM

Yeah, kickboxers suck at fighting.
Just look at Crocop.
:rolleyes:

David Jamieson

11-02-2003, 05:09 PM

I don't think rogue knows wtf he's talking about lol.

Every kickboxer I've met has pretty good power generation.
Is it bad if it's not wrapped up in some mumbo jumbo esoteric package of myths and legends?

Like" The celestial center draws power from the earth energies and it courses through the meridians where it pools and then is expelled through the weapons of attack, IE: your limbs"

vs.

"keep your feet flat, breath in before you strike, breath out when you strike and move through your opponent with your entire body weight".

which one do you understand better? :D

cheers

rogue

11-02-2003, 05:57 PM

Maybe you should delve deeper into your kung fu KL, then maybe you'll understand refined and efficient power generation.

The real original laughing Louie.

CrippledAvenger

11-02-2003, 06:05 PM

Maybe if Kung Lek delved further into his kickboxing, he'd discover the true meaning of chi.

All good boxing has chi, but not all lineages train it properly. That's why you don't see a whole lot of chi-blasting in kungfu.

rogue

11-02-2003, 07:07 PM

Look, I'm not saying that kickboxers lack power, but the power that they have is very surface.

The real original laughing Louie.

jon

11-02-2003, 07:55 PM

Look, I'm not saying that kickboxers lack power, but the power that they have is very surface.

Sif Rouge hasnt hit the nail on the head.
The problem with kickboxers is there power is all physical and based purely on commen sence physics and body mechanics.
Never once do you see a kickboxer stand there looking vacant for five minutes trying to collect himself before letting out a splitting scream and attacking a piece of wood being held static by a student.

Its really obvious that no kickboxer has any real power, if they did they wouldnt compete they would simply meditate and tell others of the path to true enlightenment.

Liokault
Your friend was quite obviously poorly trained and had no idea of the true martial way of avoiding any and all hard physical contact!
He should go back in there and learn to play patty cake patty cake like all the normal martial artists.

Pfffft... Kickboxers!
They kick and they box... ohhhh im so scared!!!

joedoe

11-02-2003, 07:56 PM

5.1

rogue

11-02-2003, 08:04 PM

Jon, are you mocking me? Are you trolling? :confused:

Its really obvious that no kickboxer has any real power, if they did they wouldnt compete they would simply meditate and tell others of the path to true enlightenment.Jon, the very reason that they can compete is because of unrefined surface power. If they ever discovered or used refined power they'd be shut down by the state Athletic Commisions. Really, you can't play with this kind of thing.

The Real Original Laughing Louie.

Ikken Hisatsu

11-02-2003, 08:14 PM

i am pretty sure rogue must be trolling with this one. no one is actually that stupid. I suppose you think boxing is for dolts as well, right? that even though its been around for centuries, they dont have enough chi in their strikes?

rogue

11-02-2003, 08:56 PM

So I'm stupid? It takes a real genius to do a sport where the goal is to cause head trauma!

that even though its been around for centuries, they dont have enough chi in their strikes?We also used to think the Earth was flat and that the Sun revolved around it. Once again it's not so much a total lack of power just a matter of unrefined inefficient power, which is also harmful to the fighter using it.

The Real Original Laughing Louie.

CrippledAvenger

11-02-2003, 09:07 PM

Once again Rogue, you fail to understand how boxers have truly mastered Qi. The staredown itself is the perfection of neigung and empty force methods, as the fighters attempt to inflict horrific damage upon their opponents by simply focusing their intent. In fact, the only low-level thing I've ever seen a boxer or a kickboxer do is to ask someone else to tape up their hands, and this itself was only brought in at the beheast of the squimish, kung-fu run Athletic Commissons.

If we kickboxers and boxers were allowed to have our way, we'd fight bareknuckle and use our surplus Qi to prevent injuries to our hands and bodies. The fighter with the weakest Qi would simply perrish, but he or she would die a warrior, as our arts are made for combat and not the ring.

jon

11-02-2003, 09:13 PM

Jon, the very reason that they can compete is because of unrefined surface power. If they ever discovered or used refined power they'd be shut down by the state Athletic Commisions. Really, you can't play with this kind of thing.

* Preach on brother....
Might I also add that as soon as a kickboxer where to understand 'real' power they would surely leave the competive circuit and abandon there life of fame and fortune to live in the mountains as a hermit eating berries and shrubs.

It is a well known fact that only hermits and monks have true power... its also a well known fact they they are the only legitmate system creators to be used in linage charts.

rogue

11-03-2003, 06:06 AM

CA, why are you mocking me?:mad: Have you ever wondered what would happen if someone who actually knew about fighting at a higher level got into the ring? It would be horrific.

Might I also add that as soon as a kickboxer where to understand 'real' power they would surely leave the competive circuit and abandon there life of fame and fortune to live in the mountains as a hermit eating berries and shrubs. Don't know about being a hermit Jon, but you're correct about the first part. With power comes responsibility. Welcome aboard!:)

zen_monkey

11-03-2003, 06:10 AM

Rogue listen to these guys.

Just because boxers dont call it chi doesnt mean its not there. After all the mind leads the chi and true Jin is a result of this. KB's have Jin if you think its purely physical more fool you.

Ray Pina

11-03-2003, 01:05 PM

Rogue, I understand what you are saying and agree but it's not politically correct.

Of course kick boxers have power and can generate power ... big power. The bigger the guy, even some huge power. And yes, let him kick you in the ribs and they may break. Get hit in the jaw and you may go down.

But getting big power from refined movements than can than be delivered again without reloading .... now that's big power delievered in a more technical way. Maybe a smaller guy using this technology can deliver the power of a larger man who does not. Maybe a larger man will find his power increasing by about 30% ... mine did (at least) when I switched to Hsing-I.

Not a popular statement, but that's what internal MA are about. Some coaches' solution: Kick harder! Punch faster!
Some other coaches' solution: If you _____ and _____, you'll hit much harder, you'll be striking from a position that doesn't require as much loading, thus making you faster.

Iteresting note: On Howard Stern today a retarted girl said she can bawl a 200+ something game. That beats me by far. Doesn't mean I want to be retarted. She's just one of the few who are very good at bawling.

apoweyn

11-03-2003, 01:09 PM

Raise your hand if you don't realize that Rogue's being sarcastic.

Ray Pina

11-03-2003, 03:42 PM

I don't know if he's being sarcastic or not, only read a few of his remarks due to busy work day.

I agree with you about this power being better than static, rev yourself up board breaking power.

I'm just trying to play devils advocate and suggest that I can use a hammer quite well. I can take it and drive a nail clean and true. I can also use brute force and slam in through a wall ... and you can say I have power and I do.

But you connot compare my swing with that of a veteran carpenter. He will swing smooth and allow the weight of the hammer to do the work. You may also ask, "Why don't you ever see him hanging pictures for $6 an hour or some such day-labor job." That is not his level. Of course he's been there, worked through it. But now his work is more subtle.

Folks also ask, "why haven't we seen this subtle power in comps?"

Well, how long ago have most here even heard of Hsing-I or Ba Gua? I would suggest its probbaly difficult for 85% of the board to even find qualified instruction in them. It takes time, but I believe there is a generation emerging right now that will bring this out and I believe it will invoke another martial revolution not unlike the Gracies.

Time will prove me right or wrong.

yenhoi

11-03-2003, 03:57 PM

:eek:

yenhoi

11-03-2003, 03:58 PM

...and I believe there is a Kali generation that will be there to beat you senseless :rolleyes:

...and if Time gets in our way, then we will kick his ass too.

:confused:

Meat Shake

11-03-2003, 04:09 PM

The Real Original Laughing Louie.

You are soooo right my friend.

GunnedDownAtrocity

11-03-2003, 07:15 PM

anyone want to sit in my lap?

rogue

11-03-2003, 09:32 PM

Well, how long ago have most here even heard of Hsing-I or Ba Gua? OK, Laughing Louie is taking a break.

Seriously, there seems to be more efficient ways of generating power. Some guys put a ton of effort and muscle into their strikes with little effect, others hit like trucks with seemingly little effort. So how does someone achieve "refined and efficient" :D power, and how do some hit like little girls while still putting in 100% effort?

EF, How does Hsing-i and Ba Guas power generation differ from a boxer or other martial artis for that matter? :confused:

Ray Pina

11-04-2003, 07:19 AM

It's a matter of finding the different body connections and linking them up. Hand and foot should go together (think pushing a car), elbow and knees relate and shoulder and hips. A lot of our work is focused just on this. Walking back and forth, driving off the back leg with our weight going forward but trying to hold the hang time as much as possible, keeping the hands in close. As the leg drives the hands go out. As soon as the hands go out a little, the elbow drives fueled by the shoulder/back ... this relates to the front knee rising as well (a step is a kick, a kick is a step), then the hips should be curled to straighten the back and the shoulders should be giving their all.

I was focused on this practice soley while injured over the summer. I know realise what is meant by "putting your body behind it" Your entire body is quite literally beying the blow and you can see it segment by segment, each guy, doing its part.

There is also the "throw a punch." A lot of people push a punch.

These types of posts always become messy however. If you name a technology everyone is quick to say they have it too, or those that don't dismiss it as "smoke and mirrors" when it's all quite anatomical.

As for Kali. I there was this mean as drunk who loved to play dirty and got the best of me one day. Out of the blue took chi sau to another level without informing me and gave me a good one to the side of the head. I purposely ducked him. He cornered me one day on the boardwalk with my ex and kind of insisted that we chi sau. What do you do in front of your friends who know you study? ... I broke the *******s rib and feel much better about the situation. As far as I'm concerned, I'm one up on the system:rolleyes: .... back at ya:p

apoweyn

11-04-2003, 07:39 AM

EFist,

As for Kali. I there was this mean as drunk who loved to play dirty and got the best of me one day. Out of the blue took chi sau to another level without informing me and gave me a good one to the side of the head. I purposely ducked him. He cornered me one day on the boardwalk with my ex and kind of insisted that we chi sau. What do you do in front of your friends who know you study? ... I broke the *******s rib and feel much better about the situation. As far as I'm concerned, I'm one up on the system .... back at ya

I don't understand. Did he practice kali? He was doing chisao. Help?

apoweyn

11-04-2003, 07:50 AM

As for power generation, not surprisingly I don't think it really falls along stylistic lines. I do agree with EFist that it has a lot to do with getting things coordinated, everything falling in line in the right order.

But to my mind, that's a question of using equipment training for feedback. And thinking about small variables. Sometimes, I'll study my feet while I'm kicking the heavy bag. Trying to get a sense for what I'm doing when. Maybe I'm inadvertently shifting my base foot back, so I can't get any penetration on the target. Maybe I'm not leading with my hips, like the handle of a whip leads the tip. Little things.

Equipment will generally give me the feedback I need to realize that I have to relax more and not push my punches. Or step before I start my kick. Or whatever.

I think it's mostly a question of listening to the feedback and manipulating variables.

Stuart B.

rogue

11-04-2003, 08:19 AM

I think that power generation is also effected by what you can get away with. A simple thing like being slightly unbalanced can drain a lot of power from a punch or a kick. I think EFs "It's a matter of finding the different body connections and linking them up." is such an easy concept but can be difficult to achieve.

apoweyn

11-04-2003, 08:43 AM

I think EFs "It's a matter of finding the different body connections and linking them up." is such an easy concept but can be difficult to achieve.

Amen on both counts.

Ray Pina

11-04-2003, 09:54 AM

Apow, yes, he was studying Kali for about 3 years in Queens when this happened but had 10 years Wing Chun before that. My beef was with him, not Kali, but I often take offense to:rolleyes: I don't mind disagree with me, but when someone gives me the roll eyes over the net it drives me insane.

And yes, it is very simple in concept and quite something else to find and coordinate these things. This is the value of internal martial arts, too me.

I've been kicking bags and kicking sparring partners now for about as long as I've been tying my own shoes (no joke). "Hitting harder" and "hitting faster" can only be taken so far externally. I learned this when a "weaker", "older" guy kicked my a$$ about three years ago and led me to my master. He was quicker and stronger but I knew he wasn't.

Odd, I find doing this research in the air is actually more valauable. To get your weight going forward, and hang their while driving off the back leg builds up control and hang time. So later, when you have to change, or follow the guy with a kick (think Ba Gua circle walking) you have the ability to. If you're resting on another object, you don't feel each and every inch.

Of course their are certain drills that do require two people. MA are actually funny to talk and write about. Because I find discrepencies. Bruce Lee is famous for saying, after he "mastered" his technique a punch is just a punch. True! But not all punches are equal. So is a punch just a punch?

In one instance I may insist that one has to be forceful, drive off the bag leg and insist on their technique. Then, later, I can say that sort of attitude can get you killed. What, do you think you're the strongest man alive?

Funny, huh?

apoweyn

11-04-2003, 10:02 AM

EFist,

Apow, yes, he was studying Kali for about 3 years in Queens when this happened but had 10 years Wing Chun before that. My beef was with him, not Kali, but I often take offense to I don't mind disagree with me, but when someone gives me the roll eyes over the net it drives me insane.

Am I misreading this? Because I didn't give you the rolly eyes.

And I'm not offended on the behalf of kali. Kali has just as many goofballs running around in it as any other style.

That said, you brought this story up in direct response to a reference to kali. And yet the story has absolutely nothing to do with kali. It's about a guy with [i]more than three times the experience in wing chun as in kali doing something directly wing chun related.

Is it any wonder that I was a bit confused?

Stuart B.

yenhoi

11-04-2003, 10:09 AM

Ray Pina

11-04-2003, 10:36 AM

Apow, I know it wasn't you that shot the now infamous "rolley eyes." I was just adressing your question about Kali.

The guys is actually not a bad MA. And three years of serious training is a long time. I have about 10 years of Isshin-Ryu and 5 of HUng Gar, WIng CHun and S. MAntis but look nothing like that after 3 years of internal.

Anyway, Yenhoi, what I posted is a Hsing-fundamental. Those are the three External connections (hand and foot, elbow and knee, hip and shoulders). There are also three internal.

I don't mean to sound so argumentative, but it's a busy day at work and I've lost my patience with this board somewhat. Anything that differs from Shoalin or UFC thinking is viewed as smoke and mirrors or unrealistic and I'm tired of saying the earth is round. There's a handful of guys on here I'd feel priveledged to match hands with, and I'm sure they know who they are.

Ray Pina

11-04-2003, 10:39 AM

Please find me a copy of what you claim I have stolen.

Also, this is the problem with your art: In fact your hands are not knives, so your slicing motions lack depth and penetrating power. While you guys have fast hands and know how to roll the elbow while controlling, if you find the above information it will solve this problem.

We tend to smash, clobber and pound... the fist is more suitable for this.

fa_jing

11-04-2003, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
It takes time, but I believe there is a generation emerging right now that will bring this out and I believe it will invoke another martial revolution not unlike the Gracies.

Time will prove me right or wrong.

I agree for the most part. I don't think that it will be much of a revolution, but I think 20 years from now you will find many fight sport combatants training in CMA methods. I'm not saying that CMA will dominate but it will be used to enough extent that there won't be these same doubts about the effectiveness of CMA.

It's just a matter of the information reaching the right people.

ShaolinTiger00

11-04-2003, 12:38 PM

:D <- just for the title alone... :D

too funny.

David Jamieson

11-04-2003, 01:01 PM

what makes for a good punch or kick with optimum power and less "physical" effort?

alignment- your bone structure has a natural alignment that allows for correct input or output of power.

breath - your breathing determines how much power you lose or expend.

musculature - bones are driven by muscles, muscle and bone is angled to alignment by tendon. You have to have strength to generate power but you don't have to overdo it to be highly effective in your striking capability.

root - to be firm in stance is to complete half your efforts. A strong ladder can be climbed more often than a rickety one without worrying about the alignment of it breaking with the energy placed upon it.

a couple of things to think about. tie a stone to a rope, how much effort does it take to swing the rope? How much force is output when the stone strikes?

a hammer is best used when gripped at the end and letting the weight of the hammer do the work. Think of muscles in this case, the more tension in them, the less force they can expel.

Brute force is definitely not the road to being a better striker. Brute force is only of any use to guys who are large, and even then, it is harder to evade and repel and deflect someone who is "soft" than someone who is rigid.

CMA and of course other MA has many methods that work towards these ends and many analogies to help the person understand the concepts and ideas behind them.

Depends on how you can get the lessons to translate through your body.

cheers

yenhoi

11-04-2003, 01:05 PM

I dont know what kali you have seen.

Our arms literally cut things. We keep them sharp by cutting coke cans in half, trimming the edge off a penny with our razor sharp elbows, or cutting leather into thin strips. This process relys heavily on the six harmonies and 3 chi centers.

Again, this is something only kali has. I know as a XY guy you cant understand, or think its all smoke and mirrors, or that you have it too, but you really need to study the body and understand our theorys of structure and body segments to understand.

:rolleyes: