What killed JKD?

[rogue]

Or who? It used to be the premier martial art but now it's just a shadow of it's former self.

The real original laughing Louie.

[Radhnoti]

The fact that anything that lasts a while becomes "classical". JKD is set up to be the "rebellious answer traditional CMAs", now that it's been around a while it can't fall into the paradigm it was designed to defeat.

It's kind of like my mythical uncle Kenny. He was a rebellious teenager, and claimed it as the defining point of his persona. Now he's 40+ and he's just a loser that won't settle down and get a job. However, he owns a $15,000 Harley and dates whatever new young girl he comes across.

JKD = old guy (art) playing young with cool toys (ideas) flirting with new girls (obscure martial arts for JKD concepts guys)!

:confused:

Actually, I don't know what I'm talkin' about...I like JKD. I blame this entire post on peer pressure from you and the way you phrased the question.

;)

[rogue]

Radhnoti, that is one of the most original and best descriptions of current JKD that I've ever heard.




The real original laughing Louie.

[Royal Dragon]

Of the JKD guys I have seen, it's mostly due to the fact that they are trying so hard to find thier"Technique" that they never develop any. I belive true JKD is not really a style, but an expression of mastership. In order to "Get it", you must be well trained in a classical art, just like JKD's founder was. Then, once you have that foundation, you must learn to walk the path alone, and become your own master.

To each style a master, and to each master, his own technique.

[Bluesman]

However, he owns a $15,000 Harley and dates whatever new young girl he comes across.


Note to self: Must buy Harley.

[yenhoi]

:rolleyes:

I dont understand the quesiton, and I like radh's response.

Really, Im prettynew to this stuff. When was JKD alive and how did it die?

Is this a plug for the SBG (http://www.straightblastgym.com) ?

What makes something a "art?"

When do "arts" become "classical?"

:confused:

[Christopher M]

Stagger Lee.

With a long forty-four.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I personally think JKD is alive and well and usually goes by the name MMA. Because thats all JKD is- fighting using whatever works.

[pazman]

i've never known a lot of jkdists, but i would guess that the 'seminar culture' really did it in. you have a ton of guys running around trying to certifications for this or that, a tons of guys trying to fill up their notebooks, a ton of guys trying to find exotic undiscovered martial arts. instead of gaining insight into new and better training methods, they were looking for the new secret technique. oh well.

[Royal Dragon]

pazman,
My point exactly.

[SevenStar]

Nah, not looking for a secret technique, but something else to add. One guy wants to add bjj to his jkd, another wants to add silat, etc. There's a major lack of standardization. Of course, that's the way it was meant to be, but that is also it's downfall.

[Royal Dragon]

Why would that be a downfall? Or do you mean the search for the latest guru/style instead of original creativity is the down fall?

[Kristoffer]

JKD isn't really a style so it can't go away.

[chen zhen]

jkdead it is. & hope itll continue to be.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Why would that be a downfall? Or do you mean the search for the latest guru/style instead of original creativity is the down fall?

because you lose almost all ways of tracking who's legit. you get people making false claims, etc. No different from the problems you see in CMA today.

Due to it's lack of standardization (it's not a style) you begin to lose frame of reference. my jkd may consist of trapping, silat and muay thai. yours may be savate, boxing and judo - it gives any yahoo the opportunity to present what they have as JKD.

[SevenStar]

If Bruce were around today, my guess would be that he'd be most impressed with mma or san shou, when it comes to the vision he had of JKD.

[Kristoffer]

he'd probably compete in UFC :)

[David Jamieson]

jkd gets a lot of it's bad reputation because so many half trained or untrained loogans claim it as their style.

quite a lot of them don't have a clue about basic fighting principles and you wind up with a cart load of idiots pushing a cart load of hog wash to people looking for real answers in their search for martial information and training.

i think this is partially Bruce Lee's own fault for assuming that people could just start up a martial art and be critical about what does or doesn't work.

In essence, I believe it was Bruce who was lacking some real insight into the true nature of humans inasmuch as we are lazy and we don't want to do the hard work.

Bruce gave all wannabe martial artists an out and a method to wallow in their own hubris.

He should've been telling them that it takes hard work and time to get good at martial arts instead of selling them fortune cookie garbage that he lifted from the classics and passed off on a non-the wiser western society as his "philosophy".

Having said that, their are some good martial artists who are at a level where tehy can actually put into play Bruce's advice. But there are more half arsed ijits out there talking trash about this and that cause they read the tao of jkd and a few other books and maybe hit a bag now and then. :rolleyes:

Bruce was right about a lot of things, don't get me wrong here. But I don't think he was right about feeding uncooked steak to babies. Milk first, then meat.

cheers

[Royal Dragon]

Well said

[Liokault]

kung lek


quite a lot of them don't have a clue about basic fighting principles and you wind up with a cart load of idiots pushing a cart load of hog wash to people looking for real answers in their search for martial information and training.


Hmmmm! I am sure that I has been said about every type of martial art ever.

[yenhoi]

Bullsh it, Bruce Lee turned out good students.

Some of them have since gone and messed "it" up.

:confused:

[Meat Shake]

HIIIIYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Royal Dragon]

WHoahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhh!!

[David Jamieson]

Bullsh it, Bruce Lee turned out good students.

name one student that Bruce "turned out" from no training to Bruce trained and is actually good.

The best jkd'ers kept their original traditional arts and picked up some concepts from Bruce. Bruce got as much from these guys as they got from him.

cheers

[Chinwoo-er]

Using Brucy's analogy of cup and water:

Teacher:
~Place an empty cup on the table~
"is this empty ?"

Student:
"Sure !"

Teacher:
"Not really"
~Takes cup away, leaving nothing~
"Thats empty"

Student:
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Teacher:
"When one starts down the path of martial arts, we all begin with an empty cup. There is nothing in it. But that does not mean we are truely empty. We still have a cup but we are not really aware of it..
The knowledge we gain through we training and education is like water filling up the cup. We can see the water, no problem. It is only when we accumulate a certain amount of water can the water form the shape of the cup. And it is only then can we truely see that the cup exists. The fact that water itself does not take any shape naturally, the fact that it is taking shape now, as well as seeing the different shapes it can take by looking at other people's water can lead up to see by inference that the cup exists. When one day in the future, you are able shatter the cup can your water flow freely without limits. Capable of taking any shape. Be it a teapot or bottle"

Student
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

~END~

I think the the problem about JKD artists today is that most people is merely teaching with either an empty or half-filled cup.

[David Jamieson]

Chinwooer-

any student who fails to understand that metaphor is just simply an idiot. :D

the whole water metaphor in use with the idea of learning has been around for centuries and spans cultures and time. It is an obvious analogy afterall.

I am amazed by people who don't understand these simple analogies. They are used afterall to make it simple to understand.

However, filled, empty, whatever. What is important is applied principle, correct transmission of the principle and an explanation of how to apply it.

Openess to the lesson is a pre-req in any study. It takes longer to learn if you keep interupting the lesson. Questions are essential of course if you still don't fully understand.

cheers

[Chinwoo-er]

But Kung Lek.
One you start to use the term "principle" you are going back to cupped water knowledge !
Danger ! Danger !!
:D


No worries, I understand what you are trying to say.
What I am just trying to display is the what the JKD people today are operating by.

[Chinwoo-er]

Actually, You will be surprised at how many people I know who didn't understand the analogy

[yenhoi]

Ted Wong.

[jimbob]

Kung Lek said

"The best jkd'ers kept their original traditional arts and picked up some concepts from Bruce. "

From what I have seen of many jkd practitioners, there is a great desire to experiment with and acquire techniques, but very little in the way of overall principles or philosophy through which to employ these techniques. It's almost like someone running around with an armful of clothes hangers (techniques) and no wardrobe to hang them up in (guiding philosophy).

I'd say this is why the "best" jkd'ers, as Kung Lek says, kept their original arts and added to them.

Just a thought.

[fa_jing]

Shucks Yenhoi, you beat me to it. Ted Wong is my sigong. His art is June Fan JKD and it's alive, though maybe not so well. What I know of it is some really cool training drills that may come with their own technique, but are easily importable into other style's practice. Also, a few techniques, the 5 principles of attack, and a subset of Wing Chun's trapping hands that is favored in JFJKD.

Good stuff, believe you me.

[rogue]

Posted by JKDChick on Bullshido (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=136990#post136990)


I'm a Vunak apologist. I admit it. I'm not ashamed.

When I was training with him, someone asked "Do you think JKD is starting to go down-hill?"

He got this pained expression on this face and said something like "It's already there. That's why we're PFS." I counted about 8 counts of "JKD" in Vunaks Black Belt ad. As an art "JF/JKD" is fine, as a training philosophy "JKD" is fine, but right now JKD is largely a marketing device.

[yenhoi]

All names of arts/styles are mainly marketing devices.

Ted Wong exponents are okay in my book.

:D

[apoweyn]

Wow. Some really good answers in this thread. Radhnoti's was a brilliant start.

There are too many good posts here for me to comment on them all, even if only to second them. So here's a group "amen" on the posts so far.

The only thing I would comment on is the observation that you just need to watch MMA to see real JKD. I'll agree that the central philosophy of MMA is very similar to that of many JKD teachers. But that doesn't really answer the question at hand.

First of all, JKD's tenets are abstract and interpretive enough that not everyone sees JKD and MMA as being analogous. For some, the most salient part of JKD is the straightforward streetfighting. According to Bruce Lee, the two primary targets are the eyes and the groin (Tao of Jeet Kune Do). Neither of which are legal targets in the UFC. The eyes aren't even legal in Pride, surely.

Other JKDists might say, though, that MMA fulfills a more important aspect of JKD philosophy than that. The ability to practice maneuvers in real time. Learning to swim by actually swimming.

But even then, even if those JKDists do find their art analogous with MMA, I still don't think it's a useful statement to say "just look at MMA to see real JKD."

If guys who have never trained with a JKD teacher are excelling at MMA and guys who have trained in JKD are not, then that doesn't suggest that MMA is JKD. What you're seeing is MMA. And the question for JKDists should be "how do I get there?"

To say that MMA represents good JKD is just as much a fallacy as when (for example) a wing chun proponent points at good boxing and says "that illustrates good wing chun theory." Why is a practitioner of a different art illustrating the worth of yours?


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

What I meant by the above post (which is a bit overblown, quite frankly) is this:

I killed JKD. In the library. With the candlestick.


Stuart B.

[Kristoffer]

:D

[SevenStar]

I wasn't saying that mma = jkd by any means. My only point was that bruce's thought of taking what's useful and discarding all else, and swimming by actually swimming are illustrated wonderously in mma.

[SevenStar]

you killed jkd? I thought the butler did it!

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I wasn't saying that mma = jkd by any means. My only point was that bruce's thought of taking what's useful and discarding all else, and swimming by actually swimming are illustrated wonderously in mma.

No, sorry mate. I know you weren't. But it's a common statement regarding JKD these days.

And I framed the butler, bending people's preconceived notions of domestic servitude and blunt force trauma to my advantage.

Muahaha...

...

What was the question?


Stuart B.

[Starchaser107]

does that mean that the suspicion is off me now that ap confessed?

[norther practitioner]

The butler in the kitchen with the candle holder....

[Meat Shake]

"who, where, with what...
The butler in the kitchen with the candle holder...."

Bah, gyah. hugh... Hooo...
I was fixin to say something along those lines ****it. Now Im gonna have to send my ninja midgets your way.... Be afraid...
:eek:

[norther practitioner]

If they can make it up the mountain... bring them...


On another note, I'd like to comment on this later, but I think it comes down to the jkd concept guys and the other jkd guys...

[Knifefighter]

Jeet Kune Do was Bruce Lee's personal, evolving expression of his martial art journey. It died when he did.

After him, some took his "style" and added their own expressions onto it. These, essentially, became new styles, although many times they were never called by new names.

Others took his style and tried to keep it exactly as he had taught it. Many of these "JKD's" became the same type of "dead" styles that he had rebelled against.

[Khun Kao Charuad]

The way I see it, if you care, is that Bruce Lee's "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" is more of a philosophy to be applied to martial arts training than it is a martial art. I've always been quite confused to see those who "Train JKD". That makes no sense to me.

Also, Bruce Lee fanboys make no sense to me.

I personally feel that Bruce Lee is turning over in his grave about how his name and his "philosophy" are being used today.

Were his ideas original? Not really. He collected a bunch of other peoples philosophys and kinda played mix and match to create fit his own personal vision. But whether or not you like JKD or Bruce Lee, there are some valid points to be made in the "Tao of JKD". But IMHO, they were meant to be APPLIED to whatever martial art you are training in, studying in, as opposed to REPLACING your martial arts study.

What do I know, however? I've been drinking....

[diego]

Originally posted by jimbob
Kung Lek said



I'd say this is why the "best" jkd'ers, as Kung Lek says, kept their original arts and added to them.

Just a thought.

which was exactly bruce lee's point build on what works for you...you don't teach a midget to fight karreem abdul jabbar the same way you teach kareem to fight a midget...the midget had better get inside or get his head kicked off, and karreem better stay outside or he will get his nutts chomped off.

the only principal to be taught is can you fight...if not then you better learn through hard sparring etc and then you look into other styles to add to your already kickass fighting mentality...mastering wing chuns art won't teach you how to fight but for one who can fight wing chun can be a very usefull tool to add into one's repertoire.