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View Full Version : Is BJJ a "well rounded" art?



Lung Ying
07-26-2000, 09:28 PM
I'll start off by saying that I am a kung fu man at heart but I have a high respect for all martial arts. There is obviously a large interest in BJJ now and from what I have seen, it seems as though the entire art focuses around ground fighting and submission.

How would BJJ defend against multiple attackers? If you are wrestleing one guy wouldn't you be defenseless against the second attacker? What would a BJJ guy do in a situation where you couldn't go to the floor, say in a stairwell, or broken glass was on the floor? Also, does BJJ have a tradition of weapons practice? Are there any internal aspects to the art?

These questions are not intended to offend anyone.

Thanks http://216.219.234.88/forum/roundtable/cool.gif

GinSueDog
07-26-2000, 10:10 PM
Lung Ying,
To answer the multiple attacker question first, there isn't really any system out there that can give you a sure answer other then a few weapon based systems like kali, second most BJJ guys would say have a good pair of track shoes on and start running. To answer your question about broken glass or a stair well, if it were broken glass I'd take him down and make sure I'm on top, if it were a stair well I'd simply throw him down the stairs. In reality I prefer striking but I do like the options that groundfighting offers. Such as being able to submitt a drunk friend or family member without having to duke it out with him or just for the fact it allows you to look at a situation a little differently. Yes BJJ has limits but I think every style and system does, thats why I crosstrain.

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"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

JerryLove
07-26-2000, 10:41 PM
The one example I am aware of of a BJJ instructor vs multiple attackers, he held one in a standing rear naked choke and bluffed the others into backing off.

Tai Mai Shu
07-26-2000, 10:44 PM
Dude-

Naw, I wouldn't call Bjj well rounded. But it is extremely effective. No weapons in Bjj. It's a hand to hand system, although that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't use Bjj against an armed attacker. About "internal" well here's the way I look at it. To my knowledge internal stuff in kung fu is basically talking about the ability to yield and win without brute strength and also to use your opponent's energy against him, right? Well there's plenty of that in Bjj. Jiu Jitsu literally means "gentle art". When guys roll, they are using those concepts all the time. It's just that we haven't really put a name on it or called it "internal" or anything. We don't look at it as anything mystical or complicated. You just feel the right energy and react naturally and it happens. It just kinda goes without saying. If you present a Bjj guy with a statement about using an opponent's energy against him, his response will probably be, "no **** sherlock!" But I donno if I know EXACTLY what you talking about. I don't know any kung fu so maybe I'm missing something about this internal thing. I'm just responding with the little I know about that whole thing.

Oh and about those situations you mentioned such as multiple attackers, etc. No, going to the ground and using Bjj would obviously not be a wise option in that situation. I'm sure there are some situations where it wouldn't be smart to try your kung fu techniques. But that doesn't make Bjj or kung fu techniques useless. Every technique has its time to be used and its time to be set aside. What may work sometimes isn't necessarily what works all the time. You just gotta adapt to the particular situation man.



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I am Tai...I will help you.

GinSueDog
07-26-2000, 11:00 PM
Lung Ying,
I just wanted to add that BJJ is a specialized system, where it's focus is on grappling and submitting your opponent on the ground. This doesn't make it a well arounded art as your options will be limited if you cannot take your opponent ot the ground and keep them there. I think as has been pointed out the Sak and Royce fight. Have the problem Royce was have was not necessary taking Sak down but actually keeping him there. BJJ alone is very effective and has been used effectively but it is still one dimensional, it is always better to be three dimensional.-ED

BTW, Tai I thought your post relating internal Kung Fu with BJJ was a good description of exactly how I have found BJJ to be but could never put it to the right words in my short time training with it.-ED

Highlander
07-26-2000, 11:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GinSueDog:
To answer the multiple attacker question first, there isn't really any system out there that can give you a sure answer other then a few weapon based systems like kali, second most BJJ guys would say have a good pair of track shoes on and start running.[/quote]

While I agree that a good pair of track shoes is the best solution, and that there isn't really any system out there that can give a sure answer to multiple attackers or even a 100% sure answer to a single attacker for that matter. (If you want a guarentee, buy a toaster) /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif There are somethings that will increase your odds if you are in an unavoidable situation, even if your a grappler. The main things that comes to mind are 1) don't spend excessive time with anyone person, and 2) don't spend excessive time on the ground.

As a striker I would strike and move. If the strike took him out, great, if it didn't, I would still move to the next guy knowing the first guy will be back. Just because a person is standing up, it doesn't mean they won't get ganged up on or attacked from behind. If I went to the ground I would strike and work to get up.

If I were a grappler, which I am not, I would forget about submitting or choking them out. These techniques are for the ring or subdoing someone you don't want to hurt. Many grappling moves can easily be dislocations or breaks. My stratagy would be take one down, injure and get up. If I hadn't completed the technique in 2 to 3 seconds, let them go, get up and take the next guy while the first is getting up. You will have other opportunities to finish the first guy. Why haven't we seen these breaks and dislocations in the UFC? Some techniques are just too dangerous to use in sparring. (Just couldn't help myself /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ).

Kung Lek
07-26-2000, 11:45 PM
Hi-

I study Kung fu also. There is chinese wrestling(Shui Jao) and Chin Na taught in our school. The techniques, takedowns, mounts, releases and what have you are all in there.

I don't think BJJ is as well rounded as some of the fuller systems of Kung Fu.

BJJ seeks to take it to the ground everytime.
By training that way, it is difficult to know what to do if your opponent cannot be taken to the ground.

I think that BJJ is more of a sport thing and I also think that in hte big scheme of things that UFC and all that stuff is just an exercise in ego masturbation and doesn't speak to the martial arts state in the world.

It's a competition against others. This is not what Kung Fu is. Kung Fu , your only competitor is yourself.

So while BJJ is a great sport, lots of fun and satisfying for those who participate in it and on top of that it most assuredly has plenty of useful teachings. I think that Helio has done a lot for bringing martial arts back into the minds of many with what he was taught, but remember, Helio learned Ju JitSu from a Japanese master.
I still to this day do not know why it became "Brazilian ju jitsu". It's Ju jitsu, same Ju Jitsu as what you will find in many schools.

gotta go
peace

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Kung Lek

GinSueDog
07-27-2000, 12:33 AM
Highlander said:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Why haven't we seen these breaks and dislocations in the UFC? Some techniques are just too dangerous to use in sparring.[/quote]

Actually those techniques are taught and used in sparring, but normally your partner will tap out just before the point something breaks or spraines. It is more common to see people getting sprains and sometimes breaks in tourneys because of the high level of aggression going on, and the short time to tap before the sprain occurs. If we are talking about three untrained and unskilled opponents in a multiple opponent situation it isn't going to be too much of a problem compared to three trained and skilled opponents. So I still say run or have a weapon as you may not be able to determine which until it is too late.

Kung Lek,
Brazilian jiu jitsu is called Brazilian jiu jitsu simply because it isn't the same art taught orginally to the Gracies those many years ago. As it is BJJ has more of a traditional Judo background then a Japanese JJ background. In fact if you go to a Japanese JJ dojo and then to a BJJ studio you'll end up seeing two very different systems. I think one of the reasons why so many claim BJJ is for the streets is because it was used and is still used on the streets of Brazil. In fact one of the Gracies, I think Ryan is often getting into trouble with the law for fighting. Lates.-ED


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"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

@xemili
07-27-2000, 12:44 AM
No.

@xemili
07-27-2000, 12:45 AM
It's still effective, though. I'm just saying that it's not a well-rounded art covering all the ranges.

chokeyouout2
07-27-2000, 12:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Highlander:
While I agree that a good pair of track shoes is the best solution, and that there isn't really any system out there that can give a sure answer to multiple attackers or even a 100% sure answer to a single attacker for that matter. (If you want a guarentee, buy a toaster) /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif There are somethings that will increase your odds if you are in an unavoidable situation, even if your a grappler. The main things that comes to mind are 1) don't spend excessive time with anyone person, and 2) don't spend excessive time on the ground.

As a striker I would strike and move. If the strike took him out, great, if it didn't, I would still move to the next guy knowing the first guy will be back. Just because a person is standing up, it doesn't mean they won't get ganged up on or attacked from behind. If I went to the ground I would strike and work to get up.

If I were a grappler, which I am not, I would forget about submitting or choking them out. These techniques are for the ring or subdoing someone you don't want to hurt. Many grappling moves can easily be dislocations or breaks. My stratagy would be take one down, injure and get up. If I hadn't completed the technique in 2 to 3 seconds, let them go, get up and take the next guy while the first is getting up. You will have other opportunities to finish the first guy. (Just couldn't help myself /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ).

[/quote]Why haven't we seen these breaks and dislocations in the UFC? Some techniques are just too dangerous to use in sparring.
no breaks cause people are smart and tap out.

Highlander
07-27-2000, 12:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GinSueDog:
If we are talking about three untrained and unskilled opponents in a multiple opponent situation it isn't going to be too much of a problem compared to three trained and skilled opponents.[/quote]

That's exactly the scenario I was talking about. I tend to think of multiple attackers as insecure chicken **** little *******s. I picture someone that has spent the time and effort to endure the training and become a skilled fighter as someone that is secure enought in their skill not to enlist help and also as honorable enough to not take advantage of the situation. I picture their actions to be more a case of letting their friend fight or breaking up the fight if their friend is endanger of seriously getting injured. I just don't picture them as taking the opportunity to inflict harm in such a one sided situation. But I could be wrong. Maybe ethics and honor are nolonger taught.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GinSueDog:
In fact one of the Gracies, I think Ryan is often getting into trouble with the law for fighting.[/quote]

Yea, didn't he knife some guy in a bar fight after choking him unconsious awhile back. I could be wrong about that so please don't anyone quote me. I'm pretty sure I heard the police were looking for him, but I didn't hear the outcome. For all I know he could have been proven completely inocent. So please keep this in that context. It is only rumor.

LEGEND
07-27-2000, 04:34 AM
HIGHLANDER...good post dude...majority of multiple attackers are COWARDS...they will only attack when there friend is winning...if there friend is getting his ass kicked...they may throw a haymaker or a kick...but that's it...if you have the intimidation factor and can pull a PSYCHO act you can force them to remain at bay...avoid trying this with military and biker bars...doesn't work...

Highlander
07-27-2000, 08:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEGEND:
...if you have the intimidation factor and can pull a PSYCHO act you can force them to remain at bay...avoid trying this with military and biker bars...doesn't work...[/quote]

Good point.

There are specific groups that are very loyal to each other. In addition to your list I would also add groups of High School or College football or basketball players, and groups of off duty Law Enforcement. Can anyone else think of other potential unofficial legal gangs that should be added to the list?

LEGEND
07-28-2000, 07:22 AM
Highlander...faternity and sometime ethinic groups also!

Water Dragon
07-28-2000, 07:29 AM
Brazillian Jujutsu is still jujutsu. Which means it's based on a Japanese system. Basically all the old jutsu's were specialized and you studies a lot.
That's cool though, because most BJJ'ers realize that. That's why they focus on cross training.

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Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics