how does choy lay fut deal with wing chun

[wahh]

hi,

i was wondering if any choy lay fut practiioner can tell me how they would deal with a wing chun fighter. it seems that both are complete opposites of each other. while choy lay fut is characterized by wide sweeping motions, wing chun has more linear movements.

Several wing chun people have told me that they would close the gap and then do the usual wing chun stuff. They said that in close distance CLF has the disadvantage since they can't use the sweeping motions.

But that doens't sound like it makes tooo much sense since i'm sure that CLF doesn't always rely on the Sao Chui (or those sweeping movements).

So yeah, any feedback on how to deal with a wing chun guy?

Thanks.

[cha kuen]

I've seen good CLF before and I would tell the CLF guy to fight the wc guy..in long range. Circle around him if needed and fight him long range. Don't grab or use trapping beucase you'll fall into wc's game plan. Fight in and out, never sticking and never close.

Many wc peopel don't konw how to fight long distance.

[TenTigers]

the mistake most people make is that they assume that long arm is long range. Gwa/cup choy and sow choy can be played very tight, and the gwa choy blasts through the bridge while simultaneously striking the head, setting it up for sow choy, or cup choy. Also gwa/cup choy is used in a nonstop barrage referred to as figure eight punches, and the ChoyLiFut practitioner can leterally run throiugh his opponent with this devastating attack.

[Sihing Tom]

Greetings,

Many wc peopel don't konw how to fight long distance.

Many, but not all. Combat can begin at any distance. But in order to strike effectively, you need to engage your opponent by closing the distance. Circling and running in and out does not allow that. Contrary to popular belief, WC people are not immobile. The footwork is dynamic, moving in any direction and cutting the distance to their opponent in a fluid manner.

Don't grab or use trapping beucase you'll fall into wc's game plan.

The WC person does not rely solely on trapping. It is not the be all to end all. A good WC person does not chase hands, but looks to engage the opponent and strike effectively. A "trap" will only occur when there is blockage in his line of attack. A pak or lop sau movement is a better choice than a "trap" which tends to tie up the hands. This is when relaxation and flowing is key.

Please keep in mind, that the saying "easier said than done" holds true. A WC person with little distance training will be picked apart by a long distance fighter. If you cannot close the gap, how can you "do the usual stuff"?

[TenTigers]

the reverse holds true as well, meaning you interrupt the CLF's gwa choy with biu-sao, jamming his attack. There is no superior style, only superior fighters. Realize this: all these systems were around at the same time. Hung-Ga, Choy Li Fut, Wing Chun, Bak Mei, Southern Mantis, BaGua, etc. People were fighting in life and death struggles, whether overthrowing the Ching or in battle anywhere else. Don't you think that if there was a superior style, everyone would learn that instead of staying with an inferior product? (Kinda like the Far Side cartoon, where the two cavemen are burning their hands holding meat over a fire, while another guy has his on a stick "Hey, look what HIM do")
The trouble arises when people who have a lack of understanding of their art, teach and spread their innadiquacies, thus giving their entire art a poor reputation. This occurs when people learn through seminars, and videos, and get "certified" to be a "branch school", simply because they paid some cash.
ok, I'm ranting again, let me, (umgh) climb..(grunt).. down from this soapbox, ahhhh, much better. Now where were we?

[cha kuen]

SIhiing tom,

Yes, I knew that.

TenTigers,

I do believe thta many of CLF's attacks can blast through literally many things, but they cannot blast through a close range w/ a good wc guy. I would recommend the CLF guy not to just blast through the wc guy but be more, in and out. long range.

Most wc cats can't do anything BUT chi sao. I said . most. not all.

[Cloud spirit]

The only way to deal with a W.C guy is to take lessons in W.C.

[cha kuen]

Cloud

SO you're saying if I want to learn how to deal with a tai chi guy then I would take tai chi lessons? To deal with a mantis guy, take mantis?

I don't believe so. It all comes down to range. You haev long range (CLF, white crane, northern shaolin), short range, grappling,throwing range and ground.

[tnwingtsun]

cha kuen

"Most wc cats can't do anything BUT chi sao. I said . most. not all."

Maybe most of the ones you have met.


Cloud spirit

"The only way to deal with a W.C guy is to take lessons in W.C."

This would be a good come back to the grapplers that say "the only way to beat a grappler is to learn how to grapple".

Both untrue,but a good come back.

[Serpent]

It's foolish to think that CLF is only a long range style. While it's initial learning is on long range and that's what everyone recognises, there's a lot more to it than that. A good CLF guy will have a devastating close-in game with elbows, knees and linear attacks.

[Fu-Pow]

I agree with Serpent.

CLF is always characterized as a long range sweeping style. True it has this component. This is our bread and butter and what separates us from the other Southern Styles (although Hung Gar has this too to a lesser extent.)

But we also have many of the inside techniques that other Southern Styles have. For example, Poon (inward/downward block and trap), Yeung Kiu (mirror bridge), Chaam (sink), Dam (pick up), Sun (upward block), Jaap (close the door), Pak (slap), Biu Ji (thrust strike), La (grab), Pow Jaang (upward elbow), Bow Jaang (wrap the elbow), Deng Jaang (nail elbow), John Jaang (behind elbow) plus knee strikes and shin kicks.

CLF is like southern style verson 2.0.

[wahh]

hi thanks for the responses everyone.

originalyl when i posed the question I wanted to know how a CLF person would handle fighting a close distance fighter. From what i understand, once a decent WC person makes contact with the other fighter, the WC guy has the advantage because of their sensitivity training. Would a CLF guy try to power through the WC guys defense or is there some sort o fstrategy with the footwork or soemthing??

Does CLF have any close distance fighting stances? i remember in WC generally (atleast in the yip man linege) the stance stays the same maybe movign forwards backwards or sidesways a littlle, but still the same stance and the hands do most of the work.

Conversely, how would a WC guy handle elbow strikes? From what i have seen most WC guys practice defending punches using the tan, bong, fook, pak etc. Maybe one of the WC people here can answer this.

thankjs

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Serpent
It's foolish to think that CLF is only a long range style. While it's initial learning is on long range and that's what everyone recognises, there's a lot more to it than that. A good CLF guy will have a devastating close-in game with elbows, knees and linear attacks.

I kinda chuckle when I remember what Dez said after you demo'd some CLF for him that night:

"How the **** is Wing Chun supposed to fight against that?" :D

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by wahh
hi thanks for the responses everyone.

Would a CLF guy try to power through the WC guys defense or is there some sort of strategy with the footwork or soemthing??

thankjs

Great question. Well, I've sparred with my classmate who used to do SPM (which I believe has some relation to Wing Chun.) If I get into a close quarter gung sao match with him he can out maneuver me inside (FYI, I'm a big guy.) However, if I'm playing the outside game then I've got him really good before with the unexpected sweep or sao chui from nowhere.

But to answer your question yes.

The strategy would be to overpower and destroy your opponents bridge. Then keep following through with a volley of strikes. They wouldn't all be like Sao Chui though, you might see something like Gwa Chui (right, smash down the bridge), Cheong Ahn Chui (left, linear shot to the throat or eye), Sao Chui (right, sweep strike to the neck), Gwa Chui (right, smash up), Faan Jong (left, upper cut.)

This would be a "beginners type" combination.

More advanced practitioners would probably have a more refined approach and "play" inside more.

[Rapid Fire]

CLF has many short hand and long hand techniques, that is why it makes it a complete style /system. It has both the soft/hard, long/short techniques to fight and defeat any opponent. The only thing limiting this style is the actual practitioner and whether or not they devote the necessary time and effort to master the style and its techniques. Each style is only as good as the person behind it.

There are many techniques such as sei tarn seen, lok gwai charp, seurng ma lau jeung, chin chi sau, chin chi pek, jow ma techniques, sei lai qwai, tau lau techniques,your basic gwa charp and countless others which can successfully be used to destroy your wc opponent in a fight which should only last seconds.

How much sensitivity can there be in a few seconds???? and why let someone come close enough to touch your hands???? .......When it is time to fight and believe me you will know , you hit first ask questions later. There is nothing a good charp choi or two or three or more to the throat wont fix.

My teacher always said: Never attack your opponent with just 1 or 2 punches/kicks. Your attack should always consisit of no less than 7 or 8 deadly punches/kicks/elbows etc, aimed to destroy them.....

[cha kuen]

You wont' be able to just blast through a wc guy at close range. You need a better strategy than that, that's all I'm saying.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by wahh
... Conversely, how would a WC guy handle elbow strikes? From what i have seen most WC guys practice defending punches using the tan, bong, fook, pak etc. Maybe one of the WC people here can answer this.

thankjs

Elbow strikes are used only during close range combat. At close quarters, tan, bong, fook, pak sao, etc. cannot defend against an elbow strike. WC deals with elbow strikes by using elbow strikes and other close range techniques. In close range fighting, you try to destroy your opponent's structure first. One way to destroy his structure is to use neck pulling/grabbing techniques. Once his structure is destroyed, you can finish him with an elbow strike.

[SmallAssassin]

This is your question:

"If a man digs a hole in 30 minutes, how long does it take him to dig half a hole?"

Your answer: "15 minutes"

The real answer: "You can't dig half a hole"

Think about why your question is a futile one...

[Eddie]

maybe you guys are forgetting about the great sow gerk/charng fu sweep?

If you cant stand, you cant fight.

[SmallAssassin]

i don't understand how you can compare two arts like this? no one fighter of any style is going to fight predictably if he or she is trasined properly, therefore asking how a CLF vs WC will work is nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!

[wahh]

i dont htink its pointless.
it may be pointless if i asked "who would win" between these two.. because no fight is a predictable one.

What i wanted to know is what sort of techniques woudl a CLF use againsta WC guy. Sure thers a lot someone can use, butjust to get an idea. You see in books and on the net how WC is supposed to be the "best" martial art or whatever and then they show pictures of how they would deal with a various attacks. Their not showing them so you will always use the same move/technique. Their showing you jsut to get a feel for what can be done to handle this sort of attack. This is no different then what I was asking.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by wahh
i dont htink its pointless.
You see in books and on the net how WC is supposed to be the "best" martial art or whatever and then they show pictures of how they would deal with a various attacks. Their not showing them so you will always use the same move/technique. Their showing you jsut to get a feel for what can be done to handle this sort of attack. This is no different then what I was asking.


The problem w/ the pictures that you see in books is that they often showing an attacker using a technique that would only be used by someone with little or not martial art skill. Or the attacker is using an attack from the same system the defender is using.

When you get into discussions about a fight between two trained martial artist its kind of a crap shoot as to whos gonna win. It probably comes down to the person who has the most experience, the most technical skill, has sparred with more people from various styles and whoever gets the first clean shot in. You also have to take into account things like speed, strength, courage and tenacity. So although all authentic and practical systems have there merits as always it comes down to the individual.

[GARRA DE TIGRE]

i think experience is a key factor in any match .

[SmallAssassin]

and luck! but are we now talking ring fighting or the real deal?

I think, though, by asking what does a CLF use against a WC is again a futile question. The point of kungfu is mean to be able to improvise on the spot, not conciously react, but subconciously.

It's like when you are in the shower and you knock over a shampoo bottle and you just catch it without thought. It's not like you see it falling and say "I study CLF, therefore i will use this technique to catch this falling object" because by the time you did that the shampoo bottle would be on the ground making a cup of tea.

Kungfu is not A does B so therefore i will do C. Kungfu is subconcious spontaneity.

[SmallAssassin]

You idea of what a CLF would use against a WC reminds me of this quote:

"Life, as I see it, is not a location but a journey. Even the man who feels most 'settled' is not settled - he is porbably sagging back. Everything is in flux, and was meant to be. Life flows. We may live at the same number of the same street, but it is never the same man who lives there... it could almost be written down as formula that when a man begins to think that at last he has found his method, he had better begin a most searching exmaination of himself to see whether part of his brain had not gone to sleep." - Henry ford, My Life and Work 1922

As in all styles, the CLF is open to infinate answers to the question put to him by WC. The WC practisitoner is also open to infinte answers to the question put to him by the CLF practitioner.

the question you ask therefore has no answer, or infinte answers. that is kungfu.

[SmallAssassin]

You idea of what a CLF would use against a WC reminds me of this quote:

"Life, as I see it, is not a location but a journey. Even the man who feels most 'settled' is not settled - he is porbably sagging back. Everything is in flux, and was meant to be. Life flows. We may live at the same number of the same street, but it is never the same man who lives there... it could almost be written down as formula that when a man begins to think that at last he has found his method, he had better begin a most searching exmaination of himself to see whether part of his brain had not gone to sleep." - Henry ford, My Life and Work 1922

As in all styles, the CLF is open to infinate answers to the question put to him by WC. The WC practisitoner is also open to infinte answers to the question put to him by the CLF practitioner.

the question you ask therefore has no answer, or it has infinte answers. That is the way of kungfu.

[Wingman]

SmallAssassin,

I agree with what you have just posted. But I think the originator of the thread is asking a hypothetical question. It is like asking a boxer what is his gameplan before the fight. The fight may or may not turn out as what the boxer has expected.

[SmallAssassin]

oops accidentally posted the same post twice...

if we are talking pre-emptive fighting, i.e. ring fighting, then we are not discussing kungfu. It would be unwise to use WC or CLF in a pre-emptive situation, or any style for that matter other than styles designed for the ring.

Why? A simple example:

Spontaneous -
ATTACKER: throws a punch at you unexpectedly in a pub, chances are it will hit you.
DEFENDER: the attacker doesn't expect you to react and you catch his arm in a lock and subdue him.

Pre-emptive-
ATTACKER: throws a punch at you, you block it.
DEFENDER: he is ready for you to try to lock his arm so the move does not work.

Rule of thumb: kungfu only truly works when it is spontaneous and instantaneous. Most moves in kungfu will not work in the ring.

This is why we have San Shou, kungfu that is specifically designed for the ring.

[Ben Gash]

I do loads of Chi Sao in CLF :confused: It is however very different to WC Chi Sao (confuses the hell out of WC guys when you demonstrate it, it's familiar but alien). Bridge creation is a foundation of Kung Fu though.
CLF is great in close quarters as it's very instinctive. Just turn your waist in or out and do something with your arms.
It's also similar to northern styles, where the same technique can be used with any degree of arm extension. Gwa and Sow work perfectly well with your shoulder.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
I do loads of Chi Sao in CLF :confused: It is however very different to WC Chi Sao (confuses the hell out of WC guys when you demonstrate it, it's familiar but alien). Bridge creation is a foundation of Kung Fu though.
CLF is great in close quarters as it's very instinctive. Just turn your waist in or out and do something with your arms.
It's also similar to northern styles, where the same technique can be used with any degree of arm extension. Gwa and Sow work perfectly well with your shoulder.

What kinds of Chi Sao do you do?

Gwa and Sao as shoulder strikes....very interesing....i'd like to see that demonstrated.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by wahh
hi,

i was wondering if any choy lay fut practiioner can tell me how they would deal with a wing chun fighter.



Has he trained in anything besides wing chun? Has he been training longer than you? what's the height/weight difference? size does matter, as does his reach. There are way to many factors to legitimately answer such a question...

you gotta make him play your game, your rules. don't let his style dictate the fight.

[alecM]

This little chestnut about Wing Chun v Choi Lee Fut always comes around.
Having studied both systems I’ve never really understood the some of the arguments.
Both systems you punch, block, elbow, knee, palm, kick, sweep, push, and throw.

[SmallAssassin]

Originally posted by alecM
This little chestnut about Wing Chun v Choi Lee Fut always comes around.


I have only seen CLF in a book, I haven't had the opportunity to see it properly. I thought CLF was a longfist style, while WC is short fist? It's just in this book the CLF Master was doing a Fan form and a Spear form which looked longfist.

Anyone want to tell me a bit about CLF? Very interested.

[alecM]

SmallAssassin you could check out these links for a start
Have a look at these links
http://www.chuskungfu.org/movies.htm
http://www.choyleefut.com.au/update/gallery.asp

[anton]

or: http://www.clfma.com./
have a look at the "master class" section... some good videos of sifu Chen Yong Fa of the Chan family lineage.

[anton]

Validity of te question aside, why does no one ever mention been choy?

[Ben Gash]

I do:confused:

[Ben Gash]

Been Choy: a Dot (whip) technique with a hint of Ding (nail on). A lateral swinging backfist. Very powerful, very nice (looks good in forms as well).

[JAZA]

Some lineages call it dot choy.

[SifuX-HSK]

hey guys,

if i may be allowed to offer my opinion?!

when it comes to choy lee fut and wing chun, people only see the obvious differences between the 2 systems. of course, clf "LOOKS" like a long range system, and may seem ineffective to wing chuns infighting, but to the intiated, and with the proper guidance from a sifu who is worth his weight in salt, would show you the finer points of clf.

clf is only long range if thats all you see. but when i went to kansas city and exchanged hands with some wc students i showed them that clf is not what it appears to be. but that is as far as i will go on that because i feel that fighting strategies should be discussed amongst people of the same style so not to give up our secrets. and that goes for any style.

if we knew all of each others secrets, then why would we practice one particular style? look into clf and everything from infighting, grappling, and ground fighting to devestating hand techniques is all there. you just have to use your knowledge, ability, and creativity to make clf work against any system.

thanks for listening,

frank

[Fu-Pow]

Welcome back frank. I'm glad to see you are taking your medication again. BTW, nice choice of name...SifuX....very funny.

[yutyeesam]

Interesting thread. On the topic of sensitivity, I think CLF definitely develops this. Chuin is not only a great block, but a great clear as well...as well as a downward Kum (it can act in a similar fashion as lop sao).

True our main goal is to hit the body (at any range), but we have both hard and soft ways of clearing limb that's in the way of the gate we wanna hit. Through drill practice, a CLF guy can develop quite a bit of sensitivity. So if I attack with a Gwa to an in-fighter, I know how he's gonna block it, because there's only a finite amount of ways to block it- so, I've developed that sensitivity of what to do right after that.

Incidentally, the full technique of Chuin La is a block and a clear (a grab pull downward). So our curriculum does incorporate sensitivity training in a unique way.

I think what the real challenge is, is who can get inside. Whoever manages this, whether WC or CLF is gonna dominate. Once you get inside, it seems like it's over- just plow forward be it chain punches or continuous CLF elements.

An interesting thought to ponder is how would a WC guy handle multiple CLF opponents, or how would a CLF guy handle multiple WC opponents.

(Hi Fu-Pow! Been a long time!)
123

[nospam]

Yo Yo Yo....

Several wing chun people have told me that they would close the gap and then do the usual wing chun stuff. They said that in close distance CLF has the disadvantage since they can't use the sweeping motions.

Coming from a Bak Hsing background, we are very linear as well. The fight doesn't start until we meet, so the best way to get the party started is to step up and in.

We want to be in close. That's the only way to get what we want.

nospam.

[nospam]

I can only speak from my experience and Bak Hsing background..we move fast, relentless, and cover much ground.

I recall fighting in tournaments and other stylists would comment on our mobility. We had one fellow who operated his own gung fu school of a different style come to us to learn as he was amazed at our foot work and command of hands.

We have few sets, concentrate on the ground up and practise a lot of mobility drills and training. One of the hardest things to do is practise traditionally and then train traditionally. One of the rare finds in any kwoon is a teacher who knows how to incorporate the traditional (concepts & training) into the fight. That is why so many throw out the traditional as antiquated and useless, but why train one way, yet fight another? This is why our fighting mirrors our sets.

nospam.

[yuanfen]

sc guy- Ip man wasnt changinga principle- he was applying it in the advice that he reportedly gave. Wing chun is a double handed system. With the right amount of chi sao timing experience- sometimes you need and can use both hands to control the person throwing a powerful blow like some clf swings.