TMA and bad attitude (not a troll)

[SevenStar]

In a recent thread (and several others previously) I stated that I've seen bigger egos in TMA than sport styles, which quite naturally was met with resistance here. Here's yet another example that happened recently.

I was talking to one of my bjj coaches, and he was telling me that he went to the pizza place next door, to order some pizzas for the guys who were painting (we just got a new school and were fixing it up) when he told the guy at the register that he was from next door, he says "oh, the martial arts place? I do martial arts too" so dave (coach) says "really? what style?" and the guy told him. He asked what we do "bjj, judo and muay thai" and he went next door to get the guy a schedule and a flyer for the upcoming adriano lucio seminar. When he got back, the guy says "you can keep those, I don't think I'll be going to your school - I'm happy where I am".

Dave says "okay, that's cool. What do you guys do? how do you train? do you grapple at all?" and the guy says "No, none of that - we don't need grappling because we won't go to the ground." Dave just smiles and says "okay, happy training to you, then"

[Oso]

i'd say the guy was more of a misguided fool.
one day he'll discover the truth, probably the hard way.

[Kristoffer]

How is that a bad attitude? Maybe he's just a newbie to ma and don't really gets the big picture

[MasterKiller]

No different than BJJers claiming they don't need to know how to strike because they'll just take you to the ground and pound you.

[ninthdrunk]

This is a little off-topic, but I was wondering.....

Do you guys that train the ground game think it is possible to avoid going to the ground? I mean for as much time as you spend working on that aspect, if someone else out there is training to avoid it couldnt that possibly throw everything off for you? Let me add that I think most striking schools dont do this the right way. I think in order to avoid going to the ground you must have experience dealing with people who like to grapple and you have to learn to defend against them, not just your teacher saying "this is what they would do, this is how we would defend, now go put your sparring gear on and we wont work on that technique at all since none of us grapples and we will never need to!"

Any thoughts. My system has grappling techniques in most of the forms, but my school isnt known for its grappling....we just dont train it. Its not against the rules, and back in the day a lot of us used to mix it up on the ground after sweeps and take downs, but that seems to have died off as the class sizes kept growing. I am looking to start it back up again, but I like training as a striker trying to prevent someone else from taking it to the ground. Thanks, guys!!

Ben

ps. Sorry...I know its off topic, so if you wanna reply, feel free to pm me.

[rogue]

Sorry, but you can't count things being in your forms if you don't train them.

[ninthdrunk]

Just because we dont train the grappling techniques like we do the other techniques in our forms, that doesnt mean they arent there. I have found applications to forms that result in throws and takedowns that other students dont see, does that mean they moves arent there because they havent seen it and they dont work on it? Im sorry, but that statement was just a little absurd. Excuse me....what I guess I should have said was:

"....we just dont train it as much."

There, is that better?

Ben

[ShaolinTiger00]

I think Oso really summed it up for me the otehr day when he posted (I'm paraphrasing here) that when traditional guys pose for a pic they make fierce menacing faces and when sports guys pose its all smiles and "hang loose".

I think your coaches reaction is also similar. a traditional guy might have taken the pizza dude's comment as a total insult slap int eh face. your coach just smiles

because we get to fight. we get the "battle" and symbolically "live and die" every time we train. pressure, contact, resistance..

they don't and they hold alot of doubt and worries and insecurities inside them. they react by putting up a hard front in an attempt to keep people away judging their skills.

[Oso]

just to recap: someone else here get's original credit for the 'kung fu face' anecdote...I just can't remember who.:)


I think both sides of seven's example could have been a lot more arrogant and ****y.

David certainly gave the best possible response.

I've tossed this one out before but I think it applies here as well as most situations in life.

This sad little lizard told me he was a brontosaurus on his mother's side. I did not laugh, people who boast of ancestry often have little else to sustain them. Humoring them costs nothing and adds to happiness in a world in which happiness is always in short supply.

[bung bo]

Oso, maybe he needs to find out the hard way. lol. seriously, i train in a traditional CMA and i've got total respect for MMA fighters. i think cross-training is a good idea. i was a bit narrow minded when i was a newbie, but i started seeing value in more things than i used to. it's too bad pizza guy thinks the way he does.

Seven star- congrats on the new school.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kristoffer
How is that a bad attitude? Maybe he's just a newbie to ma and don't really gets the big picture

nah, he mentioned that he is a black belt. What's bad is the closed mindedness

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
No different than BJJers claiming they don't need to know how to strike because they'll just take you to the ground and pound you.

I've actually never heard any bjj guys claim that. I've heard them claim that they don't need forms, but not striking.

[jmd161]

Listen to sum it all up.


People are people the world over.I've met TMA that are A-holes and i've met MMA that are A-holes as well.To say one side is more defensive than the other makes no sense.There is no way to come up with a accurate number of a-holes on either side.

I think what it is that both sides take their training seriously.Some seem to take it too serious.

From my travels on the internet it seems to be the MMA and grapplers that seem to have the most to say about others.You can not go to any forum where there are MMA ppl and Grapplers without them telling you how they can always take you down and pound you.

According to them there is nothing a striker can do to stop them from taking you down.Then to backup their point they point out how MMA and grapplers always take down strikers in Pride and the UFC and pound them into submission or tap them out.But to be honest i think most of the smack talking comes from the newbies and kids.

Alot of times i read these threads and don't reply to them because i know it's a death sentence.As soon as you say anything about defending yourself from the shoot or the guard everyone wants to tell you how you as a striker can not do it.Because as a striker it can't be done from that position and so on.The same people that tell you this have never learned any striking arts or dwelled into them for a few weeks or months ,and think they know everything about striking.

Like i said it happens on both sides all the time.But when i go to forums it seems that the TMA people are always willing to talk things out back and forth.The Grapplers and MMA seem to always want to tell you how you're wasting your time with a striking art.You rarely see TMA ppl bashing MMA and grapplers.But any forum on the internet you can always find MMA and grapplers bashing striking arts.From my travels i see that most TMA people respect MMA and grapplers.It's those same people that have no respect for TMA.

I went into a rant but i think i made my point point?:D

It happens on both sides!


jeff:)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ninthdrunk
This is a little off-topic, but I was wondering.....

Do you guys that train the ground game think it is possible to avoid going to the ground? I mean for as much time as you spend working on that aspect, if someone else out there is training to avoid it couldnt that possibly throw everything off for you?

Of course it's possible. that's why many grapplers also train in a striking style, or at least have in some point in time.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ninthdrunk
Just because we dont train the grappling techniques like we do the other techniques in our forms, that doesnt mean they arent there. I have found applications to forms that result in throws and takedowns that other students dont see, does that mean they moves arent there because they havent seen it and they dont work on it? Im sorry, but that statement was just a little absurd. Excuse me....what I guess I should have said was:

"....we just dont train it as much."

There, is that better?

Ben

He wasn't saying the techniques weren't there - he's saying that if you really don't train them, then you'll really never use them.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Jeff, just a reminder, not all combat sports are grappling and most mma guys are striking too.

your post had alot of generalizations in it. some true, some not.


oso - love the lizard and brontasouraus quote! mind if i use it? source?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by jmd161
Listen to sum it all up.


People are people the world over.I've met TMA that are A-holes and i've met MMA that are A-holes as well.To say one side is more defensive than the other makes no sense.There is no way to come up with a accurate number of a-holes on either side.

I think what it is that both sides take their training seriously.Some seem to take it too serious.

From my travels on the internet it seems to be the MMA and grapplers that seem to have the most to say about others.You can not go to any forum where there are MMA ppl and Grapplers without them telling you how they can always take you down and pound you.

According to them there is nothing a striker can do to stop them from taking you down.Then to backup their point they point out how MMA and grapplers always take down strikers in Pride and the UFC and pound them into submission or tap them out.But to be honest i think most of the smack talking comes from the newbies and kids.

Alot of times i read these threads and don't reply to them because i know it's a death sentence.As soon as you say anything about defending yourself from the shoot or the guard everyone wants to tell you how you as a striker can not do it.Because as a striker it can't be done from that position and so on.The same people that tell you this have never learned any striking arts or dwelled into them for a few weeks or months ,and think they know everything about striking.

Like i said it happens on both sides all the time.But when i go to forums it seems that the TMA people are always willing to talk things out back and forth.The Grapplers and MMA seem to always want to tell you how you're wasting your time with a striking art.You rarely see TMA ppl bashing MMA and grapplers.But any forum on the internet you can always find MMA and grapplers bashing striking arts.From my travels i see that most TMA people respect MMA and grapplers.It's those same people that have no respect for TMA.

I went into a rant but i think i made my point point?:D

It happens on both sides!


jeff:)

on the net, it's typically, newbies, kids and trolls. I've got bjj friends and training partners who get threads deleted on mma.tv for trolling judo guys. IRL though, they respect them, and train with them. When I first started bjj, they were all very anxious to see my CMA - didn't joke or anything. many of them had previously trained aikido, karate or something else. As far as they're concerned, if it works for you, use it.

[jmd161]

SevenStar ,

Yeah i figured it had to be pretty much those in that group that talk the most crap.

I train with some grapplers and mma ppl and the're all very cool.

Some at the start did not respect kung fu or at least said that they did'nt,but they have changed their thoughts a little.some respect kung fu more now and others just respect me and the way i train.They point out not alot of strikers train like we do at my school.

jeff:)

[Merryprankster]

ninthdrunk

Even more pertinent, you'll never understand the application in your form if you don't practice it. It might be THERE, but there are little nuances that really improve the way things work that you'll never understand if it's not common to practice them.

Even worse, as this continues--moves being treated as afterthoughts--the knowledge is lost as it's passed down.

Think of all the phenomenally stupid ways people suggest countering shots and you'll see what I mean.

As far as "can you avoid going to the ground?" Absolutely. But that involves learning to grapple--not like a champ, but to shake off the clinch/shot. Time and time again we've seen people try to just beat on the guy who is clinching to takedown and it just doesn't work well. Your balance is off, the spacing is wrong...

Learn to grapple out then follow up. Guy Mezger is great at getting out of the clinch and following up with nice strikes.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Jeff, just a reminder, not all combat sports are grappling and most mma guys are striking too.

your post had alot of generalizations in it. some true, some not.



I agree ST00 i was very general.

When i say grapplers i mean wrestlers and Bjj people.I have never gotten any flack from any judo or other grappling arts.I know mma people are strikers also ,but when i say strikers i mean tradidtonal karate and kung fu people.Most mma people seem to see themselves more as grapplers than strikers.

But remember these are just the people i've come in contact with.


jeff:)

[CaptinPickAxe]

It makes me laugh...

BJJers who say they don't need to know how to strike, they'll just fight on the ground. Its funny cause all the fights I see here in SA-Town, when they hit the ground 4 or 5 of ol' dudes homies will jump in and dance on Mr. BJJ's face.

I've also heard SDer's (not Flaming) says that BJJ is unnessacary. They can handle themselves well enough to not let it go to the ground. This is a big if. When you get taken to the ground Mr.BJJ is going to pop your bones regardless if your tapping. You better hope you didn't tell your friends you can handle yourself so don't help, cause you'll need it.

[Oso]

STOO

of course, it's not mine:)

Robert A. Heinlein

it's found in a group of aphorisms by Heinlein characters published as "The Notebooks of Lazarus Long"

out of print last time I looked.

I could email you a .doc w/ all of them.

[Meat Shake]

Played with the BJJ guys yesterday for a bit, forgot how much I enjoyed it. Gonna start practicing with them before SC class. Good stuff, very fluid on the ground.
Chen, Shuai Chiao, and BJJ. Sounds good for me for now.
:)

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
It makes me laugh...

BJJers who say they don't need to know how to strike, they'll just fight on the ground. Its funny cause all the fights I see here in SA-Town, when they hit the ground 4 or 5 of ol' dudes homies will jump in and dance on Mr. BJJ's face.

I've also heard SDer's (not Flaming) says that BJJ is unnessacary. They can handle themselves well enough to not let it go to the ground. This is a big if. When you get taken to the ground Mr.BJJ is going to pop your bones regardless if your tapping. You better hope you didn't tell your friends you can handle yourself so don't help, cause you'll need it.

CPA, some SDers may have said that just like some TKD, or PM, or Tai Chi etc. may say things like that. I've messed around with BJJ enought to know you don't want to go to the ground, but if you do, then you better know how to protect yourself (unless you have 5 or 6 hommies ina dancing mood)

[CaptinPickAxe]

Every style has thick-headed practioners. I just so happens my whole SD kwoon belived they could end all fights on their feet. Its sad, really, but soon enough they will learn.

[SevenStar]

"I've also heard SDer's (not Flaming) says that BJJ is unnessacary. "

LOL, many people would say that SD isn't necessary...

[SevenStar]

there have been a few threads here about defending on the ground against multiple attackers.

[Oso]

the secret being to have caltrops ready....

[rubthebuddha]

the secret being to have caltrops ready.... this does NOT work when being attacked by multiple hoes wearing platform shoes. :mad:

[Liokault]

What you do not understand 7star is that the pizza guy was a ninja and was laughthing at both the TMA and MMA guy as he saw the conversation for what it was, 2 grown men talking about somthing that (for 99.9% of martial artists) makes no differance out side of the kwoon/dojo. Ground or no ground its all about how much you enjoy it, and who can say that the MMA guy was not fooling himself any less than the TMS guy.


Hope that makes sense as its late and I am tired.

[neit]

i don't think TMA people are especially prone to bad attitudes. it is just dissapointing to realise that we as a group are just as likely to have "bad attitude" as anyone else. TMA is supposed to build character.

[Starchaser107]

TMA is only supposed to build character if your school subscribes to that romantic notion.

TMA as well as all MA , builds fighters, and that's the only supposition I'd make

which itself isn't always true.

[Royal Dragon]

TMA is supposed to build character.

Reply]
Yeah, in the dream world of fluffy bunnies andd soft pillow like clouds where everything is all icecream and candy.

As for the guy in the Pizza joint who says he does not need grapeling, maybe he's happy doing what he does, and is enlightened enough to know it's all a bunch of bs anyway.

An what's the deal with labeling Kung Fu as a "Striking" art? MOST Chinese arts (Kung Fu) Strike, yes, but also lock, throw, press, sweep, uproot and dislocate in just about all ranges. "Striking" is only one tool of the trade for a Kung Fu guy.

As for attitudes, it's eveywhere across ALL lines styles and discaplines. There is something about the fighting arts that just gives people Fat heads and God complexes.

For example, dowing this Pizza guy because he really had no interst in "Grappeling". I mean, who cares what he's into anyway? If he's happy doing what he's doing, then what's it to you or anyone else anyway? Just do your thing, and shut the **** up about what others are doing.

[Shooter]

Royal Dragon has just torn the correct a new one.

[Lowlynobody]

I think that is the best post I've ever seen on KFO.

[Ralphie]

I think you're mistaken regarding this whole thing. It maybe a common trait of the consumer that prevented him from taking an interest in watching a grappling seminar. If the instructor wanted to capture his attention, he should have "sold" him on the thing. In essence, he gave up too soon. When was the last time someone said, "Here's a flyer come by", and you actually went. He should have said something like "You know, what you do sounds an awfull like what we do, but maybe you do it better. Do you think you could come down, watch the seminar, then afterward show us a little of what you do?"
OTOH, People are people. We have fragile egos. We will think what we do is the best. What I think is that people will gravitate to what they need the most. Some people need to feel like they're better than others, so they get a black belt and act real tough even though they don't really test their fighting ability that much. Some people compete in a semi-reallistic arena, and this satisfies a specific need on some level. Others need to try to connect to a mystical thing. I'm sure the list can go on, and each person in that group would say what they do is most important. So what's the point? Welcome to the world of human dynamic.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I disagree- I think a good martial artist also has good character. A good FIGHTER doesnt neccessarily. but that depends on what you count as a good character- to me that would be self discipline, willpower, drive, and self confidence (self confidence is NOT the same thing as gloating, stubborness, and criticising others)

none of this fairy sh*t. as for grappling- I too havent heard of many arts that dont incorporate throws, ground defense, locks and so on at some level. some like BJJ focus on it more than others such as kickboxing, but its really a matter of what you can do better. the only one that might spring to mind is some of the more traditional karate styles, but since most guys I know who do karate also do judo (and thats the way it was back in ye olde days of japan) that isnt so much of an issue.

I disagree that fights always go to the ground. in fact I would say that unless you are fighting someone who is a ground fighter, theres probably a 70% chance of staying up (until you get knocked on your arse of course)

this is only from my own observations of course so it could be wrong.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't think it even matters. Do what you enjoy. It's all good.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
I disagree- I think a good martial artist also has good character. A good FIGHTER doesnt neccessarily. but that depends on what you count as a good character- to me that would be self discipline, willpower, drive, and self confidence (self confidence is NOT the same thing as gloating, stubborness, and criticising others)

none of this fairy sh*t. as for grappling- I too havent heard of many arts that dont incorporate throws, ground defense, locks and so on at some level. some like BJJ focus on it more than others such as kickboxing, but its really a matter of what you can do better. the only one that might spring to mind is some of the more traditional karate styles, but since most guys I know who do karate also do judo (and thats the way it was back in ye olde days of japan) that isnt so much of an issue.

I disagree that fights always go to the ground. in fact I would say that unless you are fighting someone who is a ground fighter, theres probably a 70% chance of staying up (until you get knocked on your arse of course)

this is only from my own observations of course so it could be wrong.

See, I disagree. Building character is a spin-off benefit that training MA can provide. Ultimately the person has to be receptive to the character building aspects of MA training. However, if you are of the attitude that MA is for fighting and character building can be done at church, then it is also a perfectly valid position to take. It really depends on the person and what they are looking to get out of MA training.

And as for the dude at the pizza shop, if it were me I would have taken the flyer, said thank you and decided later if I wanted to attend. Doesn't take much to be polite :)

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I think we more disagree on what the definition of character is- Last I heard, the church doesnt teach much about willpower and drive. I think you're meaning things like humility, integrity, tolerance- things I would define as someones personality. This is just nitpicking though, I get what you're saying ;)

[Oso]

this does NOT work when being attacked by multiple hoes wearing platform shoes.


not if they are coated with a substance that is used in phlebotomy that explodes under friction. as the prong of the caltrop enters the sole of the shoe the friction with the sole rubber causes the substance to explode.

BAM !! no mo hoes.


now, don't ask me what that substance is. it's a liquid at room temp but evaporates readily leaving behind a crusty film that if heated by friction will ignite. I spent 3 months hanging out with a phlebotomist and she was always careful to to wipe any residue from the threads of the bottle of this substance she was using. any phlebotomists in the hizzous?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu

none of this fairy sh*t. as for grappling- I too havent heard of many arts that dont incorporate throws, ground defense, locks and so on at some level. some like BJJ focus on it more than others such as kickboxing, but its really a matter of what you can do better. the only one that might spring to mind is some of the more traditional karate styles, but since most guys I know who do karate also do judo (and thats the way it was back in ye olde days of japan) that isnt so much of an issue.

It really doesn't matter much if it's only in the system - that's not enough. you gotta train it...regularly

theres probably a 70% chance of staying up (until you get knocked on your arse of course)

that's exactly how it happens... watch two untrained people fight. they stumble - ALOT it's not uncommon for one or both of them to fall

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ralphie
I think you're mistaken regarding this whole thing. It maybe a common trait of the consumer that prevented him from taking an interest in watching a grappling seminar. If the instructor wanted to capture his attention, he should have "sold" him on the thing. In essence, he gave up too soon. When was the last time someone said, "Here's a flyer come by", and you actually went. He should have said something like "You know, what you do sounds an awfull like what we do, but maybe you do it better. Do you think you could come down, watch the seminar, then afterward show us a little of what you do?"
OTOH, People are people. We have fragile egos. We will think what we do is the best. What I think is that people will gravitate to what they need the most. Some people need to feel like they're better than others, so they get a black belt and act real tough even though they don't really test their fighting ability that much. Some people compete in a semi-reallistic arena, and this satisfies a specific need on some level. Others need to try to connect to a mystical thing. I'm sure the list can go on, and each person in that group would say what they do is most important. So what's the point? Welcome to the world of human dynamic.

that wasn't the issue - he wasn't trying to gain a new student. The point of the post was the closed mindedness of the TmA guy - something I see alot more in TMA than sport fighters.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
TMA is supposed to build character.

Reply]
[b]An what's the deal with labeling Kung Fu as a "Striking" art? MOST Chinese arts (Kung Fu) Strike, yes, but also lock, throw, press, sweep, uproot and dislocate in just about all ranges. "Striking" is only one tool of the trade for a Kung Fu guy.

my guess is it's labeled that way because that's what you see. In the continuous sparring I've seen and been in, it's rare to see a decent takedown, lock or throw. there's plenty of stiking though. Now, SC guys throw... lots... many people would likely label it as a grappling art, not a striking art, but they definitely do strike.

As for attitudes, it's eveywhere across ALL lines styles and discaplines. There is something about the fighting arts that just gives people Fat heads and God complexes.

that's nothing mysterious - it's ego. competing keeps egos in check.

For example, dowing this Pizza guy because he really had no interst in "Grappeling". I mean, who cares what he's into anyway? If he's happy doing what he's doing, then what's it to you or anyone else anyway? Just do your thing, and shut the **** up about what others are doing.

we don't give a flying d@mn about what he's doing. But at the same time, I'm not gonna say, "you CMA guys focus on so much stuff, you can't master any of it quickly, and that's why I'm not into it." If you can take what you have and make it work, then that's great. I'd love to share techniques sometime. I'm open minded like that.

[Ralphie]

that wasn't the issue - he wasn't trying to gain a new student. The point of the post was the closed mindedness of the TmA guy - something I see alot more in TMA than sport fighters.

Sure, I know the point you're trying to reach. However, I think it's an issue of human nature, and not an issue of Category A vs. Category B exclusively. If someone was taught basketball a certain way, and that way has worked for him/her since they began, then introducing a new method of shooting, defending etc. will be met with resistance or disinterest. A different type of person may be interested in the seminar regardless of his background, but that specific person (there are probably many like this guy) had no compelling reason to watch the seminar.

Also, I understand the underlying point you're getting at. The problem with so called TMAists is that they are arrogant in their ignorance. That, because they limit their outside experience, they end up limiting their potential, while at the same time proclaiming amazing ability. That many so called martial artists don't invest in loss, and so never gain as much either. However, not everyone has the same need as you do. That is your ego that blocks you from seeing that. The dynamic involved in this guys closed mindedness reaches further than just him being a TMAist.

[Royal Dragon]

that's nothing mysterious - it's ego. competing keeps egos in check.

Reply]
No, people that compte become arrogant about thier competitiveness. In fact, I have seen MORE arrogance from those that compete, than those that don't. I really don't see The same level of arrgance out side of MA. Yes, you have arrogant a$$holes everywhere, but for somew reason it seems to dominate the martial arts world. I belive the study of martial arts breeds he opposite of everything it claims. Instead of humbleness, it breed arrogance, instaed of humility, you get Ego for example.

I don't see this in gymnastics. They train hard, and long, and they enjoy expressing thier art, but there is not this "I'm" better than everyone lese bacause I do floor tumbling in such and such a way.They recognise talent,and the discpline developes self confidnace, but there is no more arrogance and ego than any other aspect of life.

If you look at martial arts, almost universally everyone has this attitude of superiority, if not in themselves, then thier school. It's like thousands and thousands of little, egotistical cult followings.

In gymnastics, entire gyms learn standardised routines right out of the manuals released every year by the USAG. The coaches are learning them AS THEY TEACH THEM. In martial arts, if you do that (An lets face it, this stuff isn't rocket science, and can quite easily be book leanred) all of a sudden every school in the area starts acting like your a "know nothing" loser. They go on the attack and have to bash you down before you become a threat to them or something. The fatc that you turn out skilled exponents is like, swept under the brush.

If you see them publicaly, they are all like respectful and what not, to each other, but go in the office alone, and they rip everyone around them.

Yes, there are some desrving of that, like your CMQ's and SD's for the way they promote themselves and such,but for the most part everyone teahces thier thing pretty well. a TKD school is a TKD school.There are very few bad ones. Now, if your looking for something more full contact, and reality based, you might want to go to Hackney's acadamy.but that does not give yo the right to rip on TKD for not poor full contact. They don't do reality based fighting. To do so is arrogant, and an attempt to make yourself feel bigger by belittiling another. It's an insecurity, one I feel is exemplafide and even nurtured in the genral martial arts culture.

Hackney's accademy, is not better than the local TKD school.They don't even do the same thing, so you can't compare them. It's like trying to compare a Dodge Neon to a Corvette. Yes the Vett is faster, but the Neon can go from one state to the next on like $15 worth of cheap gass. The Corvette belitting the Neon (or vica versa) would be ludicrase, as the two cars are built with completely different goals in mind. The same goes for fight oriented schools belitting sport ones. Yet, we see it all the time. Then theres the whole MMA trashing TMA thing, wrestlers trashing strikers and the ever popular Wing Chun Trashing Vin Tsun thing. Really, I mean,you never see a good floors competitor trahing a Bars or beam competitor in gymnastics. Why are egos so inflated, and fragile in the Martial arts??

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
that's nothing mysterious - it's ego. competing keeps egos in check.

Reply]
No, people that compte become arrogant about thier competitiveness. In fact, I have seen MORE arrogance from those that compete, than those that don't.

In point/forms, maybe - I'm talking about contact. Let me rephrase that... constant a$$ beatings keep egos in check. It can't be helped. No matter how easily I may be able to kick your arse, I can't really brag if MP is constantly kicking mine. you begin to realize that as good as you are, there is someone better, and that eventually, you will fight them. Heck, take my last shiai. I got 1st in my division, and beat a guy with WAY more experience than me. I coulda bragged talking about how I was the man. Then, I entered the open division and got creamed. Boom. ego check.


I really don't see The same level of arrgance out side of MA. Yes, you have arrogant a$$holes everywhere, but for somew reason it seems to dominate the martial arts world. I belive the study of martial arts breeds he opposite of everything it claims. Instead of humbleness, it breed arrogance, instaed of humility, you get Ego for example.

think about it... you have people talking about "my sifu is 102020939.5 - 0 in challenge matches", or "my school is famous for it's secret technique"... It's bound to breed arrogance.

I don't see this in gymnastics. They train hard, and long, and they enjoy expressing thier art, but there is not this "I'm" better than everyone lese bacause I do floor tumbling in such and such a way.They recognise talent,and the discpline developes self confidnace, but there is no more arrogance and ego than any other aspect of life.

they sound like true competitors.

If you look at martial arts, almost universally everyone has this attitude of superiority, if not in themselves, then thier school. It's like thousands and thousands of little, egotistical cult followings.

see my above comments.

In gymnastics, entire gyms learn standardised routines right out of the manuals released every year by the USAG. The coaches are learning them AS THEY TEACH THEM. In martial arts, if you do that (An lets face it, this stuff isn't rocket science, and can quite easily be book leanred) all of a sudden every school in the area starts acting like your a "know nothing" loser. They go on the attack and have to bash you down before you become a threat to them or something. The fatc that you turn out skilled exponents is like, swept under the brush.

C'mon dude...you're only saying that because you're doing tai tzu by tape. There's nothing wrong with learning as you teach. I teach, and I learn all the time. I learn MORE than I teach. There's nothing wrong with that. but, there are things that are better taught by personal instruction than by book or tape. you can't adequately learn grappling by tape. you can't adequately learn taiji by tape. If you don't have a firm grasp on what you are teaching, you shouldn't teach it. That's where problems come in. Also, you have people who let students think they know more than they actually do - it keeps them on a high horse. If your students think you are a great master and you know you're not, then you're lying to them.

you, for example have admitted that you aren't qualified to teach intermediate and advanced calibur students, and that you would send them elsewhere. That's a good thing - you acknowledge your limitations.

a TKD school is a TKD school.There are very few bad ones. Now, if your looking for something more full contact, and reality based, you might want to go to Hackney's acadamy.but that does not give yo the right to rip on TKD for not poor full contact. They don't do reality based fighting. To do so is arrogant, and an attempt to make yourself feel bigger by belittiling another. It's an insecurity, one I feel is exemplafide and even nurtured in the genral martial arts culture.

I'll agree and disagree there. what you said is correct, but also, look at how the school is promoting themselves. Let's use the same TKD school. If they say they teach TKD, fine. Now, if they say they teach reality self defense and mma, but they really only do TKD and call their roundhouse a thai roundhouse, then they deserve to be ripped on.

Then theres the whole MMA trashing TMA thing

read my above comment, then rethink that one. Grappling started getting popular and some TMA started saying "I would simply do technique X to stop a double leg," then UFC came on the scene nd grapplers invited those TMA to put up or shut up. So the TMA put up, and they all got shut up. TMA then stopped entering those competitions. It was ruled by sport fighters - thai boxers, grapplers, etc. then they all started cross training. There are still some TMA who say what they will do, and consequently, MMA will trash them. Notice you don't really hear them bashing san shou...

[rogue]

I don't see this in gymnastics. They train hard, and long, and they enjoy expressing thier art, but there is not this "I'm" better than everyone lese bacause I do floor tumbling in such and such a way.They recognise talent,and the discpline developes self confidnace, but there is no more arrogance and ego than any other aspect of life. Stick around, you will. The idea of sports is to beat the other person or team. If you don't have the desire to best the other guy you'll never get close to the gold. Do you think any QB wants to be the guy who gets the snap and holds the football for the kicker? It's not so much about ego as it is about being honest about your abilities.

[brassmonkey]

Someone from another forum had a great story relating to this.

He said his old judo club shared space with a karate school. Every day they would come in to workout after the karate class. The karate guys would walk out with theyre chins up, c*cky with alot of ego. The judo guys would take the floor with theyre shoulders slumped, head more down.

He related that the difference in attitude was simply hard contact sparring. The judo guys had theyre ego beaten out of them while the karate guys never sparred.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Hmmm, is it really ego or more like the personality of people attracted to different MA/Sports/type of training??

Any DECENT Sifu will and can check your ego without the need of hitting, shouting, punishment or similar.
If it was really for all the beatings why do so many people shout their mouths of in pubs and similar after having been repeatedly trashed before.

I am more inclined to go with RD's points, but would say that certain types of training and competitions will attract and re-inforce/enhance existing personality trends.

Interestingly enough I found that the attitude of MA seems to be more in direct relation with their surroundings and culture.
Humans are after all a group animals and fitting in and belonging to a group are very strong trends.
;)

[brassmonkey]

this reminds me I saw a great documentary on Mark Kerr this past weekend called "the Smashing Machine" its on dvd now. It really shows how humble guys like Kerr and Coleman are when before I would have figured they both were 2 steroid monkeys with alot of ego.

[Ralphie]

They are/were steroid monkeys. They wrestled at 190 in college, right. Compete as professionals at 260. Other than that, they were pretty humble guys regarding competition. However, they had nothing to prove regarding they're ability.

[Tak]

Originally posted by SevenStar
that wasn't the issue - he wasn't trying to gain a new student. The point of the post was the closed mindedness of the TmA guy - something I see alot more in TMA than sport fighters. Why is the TMA guy the close-minded one? The MMA guy didn't go train at the TMA guy's school either. Maybe they're both close-minded for not getting anchovies on their pizzas.

[SevenStar]

The TMA guy didn't invite him or get him a flyer. He visited my longfist school while I was there, so I know he's got no problem with it. he's not closed minded at all. When it comes to the idea of anchovies though, I'm very closed-minded :p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
Hmmm, is it really ego or more like the personality of people attracted to different MA/Sports/type of training??

nah, I don't think it's that. If that's the case, the arrogant ones would flock to MMA in hopes of being able to fight full contact, win and brag about it. they type of training will attract people with different work ethics though - someone who doesn't want to train hard will not last in bjj or muay thai very long.

If it was really for all the beatings why do so many people shout their mouths of in pubs and similar after having been repeatedly trashed before.

there's usually alcohol involved, no? That changes everything.

[/B]

[Meat Shake]

Eeeewww..... Anchovies are about equivelant to a sweaty ***** pizza. :eek:
Some TMA are very closed minded. Some MMA are very closed minded. I thought we've realized that generalizations are just that.... too general.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Eeeewww..... Anchovies are about equivelant to a sweay ***** pizza. :eek:

ack.:eek:

[No_Know]

Before one believes that one is any good, one might not know better than to think/say that you are worse than one. A stepping stone to self-confidence.

Some have their foot stuck.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

If it was really for all the beatings why do so many people shout their mouths of in pubs and similar after having been repeatedly trashed before.


there's usually alcohol involved, no? That changes everything.

Excrement of male bovine.

"Sorry, it was the alcohol not me that was fighting him" flipping cowardly excuse for spineless *******s that can't face the reality that THEY got a personality problem or no control over themselves.

[Meat Shake]

People tend to think less clearly when sloppy drunk...

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
People tend to think less clearly when sloppy drunk...

Only a fool will drink to a stage where he can no longer control himself, especially when in company or public.

Too many people look for easy excuses to do foolish things and justify their actions afterwards, this is an unfortuante personality trend that has been developing for some time.
;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
People tend to think less clearly when sloppy drunk...

exactly my point.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey


Only a fool will drink to a stage where he can no longer control himself, especially when in company or public.

Too many people look for easy excuses to do foolish things and justify their actions afterwards, this is an unfortuante personality trend that has been developing for some time.
;)

I agree, but it happens, nevertheless. consequently, it still goes in a seperate category as to why beatings won't humble them.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Sevenstar.

You can only humble people that are ready to be humbled.

Some people got it and others don't, some might get it later on in life due to experiences and some never will.

Old saying:
"When the student is ready the teacher appears."

[Tak]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
Only a fool will drink to a stage where he can no longer control himself, especially when in company or public.

Too many people look for easy excuses to do foolish things and justify their actions afterwards, this is an unfortuante personality trend that has been developing for some time.
;) Complete agreement here.

[Ray Pina]

Royal Dragon, I truly like what you are saying, and there is a side of me that strongly agrees with you. But then there is the otherside.

This thing we do is Martial Art. It is combat based, and being so one does not only want to win, you should demand it ... no second place. Do or die.

That is the heart of a violent confrontation, and because of that I always seek to increase my technology, compare it with what is out there, maintain an edge, an unfair advantage.

Whay the TKD guys are doing is fine! They are great athletes and many have much more ability than me. I'm envious of their kicking, though I kick clear and crisp and can clear a head. The problem is when they label it Martial Art!

I see some of these guys and I was there in Karate and just think to myself, "God, that kid has so much talent. If he'd only ...."

It's not a negative judgement in that I have ill feeling or look down on the person. It's seeing someone with a lot of talent that can take it to another level but in most cases, won't for either: A) having been introduced to the art and not wanting to start over fresh or B) will never be exposed to something more martial focused.

I for one do believe that some arts are better than others. The only time I become argumentitive here is in regard to tactics. When someone says opening up with a high roundhouse kick is the way to go.

Yes, high roundhouses can kill you. But there is a time and place and the opening move is not. Now a TKD guy will swear up and down it is acceptable. But that's because no one has ever wedged his leg up in the air and kicked out his supporting leg before dumping him on his head ... it's not allowed.

This same type of argument comes up in many forms on this board and its thin wire one has to walk between sugesting someone's tactics may be a little short sighted and telling them that their training is unrealistic ..... martially.

Overall, I think the board does a pretty good job. Also, I think folks play down the honor aspect here because we're all martial artists. Sort of like doctors not bragging about being a doctor in a room full of doctors. You brag about the sailfish you got in key west instead.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
Sevenstar.

You can only humble people that are ready to be humbled.

Some people got it and others don't, some might get it later on in life due to experiences and some never will.

Old saying:
"When the student is ready the teacher appears."

I disagree. discipline and humbleness are two things that can be forced. at the very least, if they aren't humble to all, they will be humble to and respect those who are beating them.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

This thing we do is Martial Art. It is combat based, and being so one does not only want to win, you should demand it ... no second place. Do or die.

I ould disagree with this, to me it is a misunderstanding that is propagated in the West, egoism and arrogance.

One of the first rules of all the MA that I learned is:
"Do not compete"
and I have seen about 98% of Students get it wrong and misunderstood it.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by SevenStar


I disagree. discipline and humbleness are two things that can be forced. at the very least, if they aren't humble to all, they will be humble to and respect those who are beating them.

Not saying that you are wong, but my exeriences are different.
;)