View Full Version : Do most fights go to the ground?

ying jow
08-07-2000, 03:58 AM
I started studying Judo about 3 years ago to get a grappling base for my Kung Fu. I have noticed many people do fall while sparring in Kung Fu and thought that I would like to be as prepared as possible for that situation so I went to a school that focuses strictly on grappling. I continued with my Kung Fu training as well.

What I have found that it is nearly impossible as a beginner to take a good judoka down. So what I concluded was that the reason people fall is not because it is inevitable it is because they don't have the balance they need when engaged with an opponent.

But here is the part that people don't like to hear. I can show you how to keep from being taken down. But, until you randori for countless hours avoiding the takedowns you will still be taken down. When people try to take you down you have to be able to feel it before you see it in order to be able to stop it. So you see, you have to get in there with these grapplers and learn thier game if you want to have any chance of stopping it. You don't have to become an expert at it, but you have to be able to know and identify what they are trying to do in order to put up a decent defence against it.

08-07-2000, 04:27 AM
I agree,IMHO about athird of fights go to the ground naturally,unless one or both fighters want to go to ground,in which case the number leaps to 80%Most of the people here who disparage grounfighting are just angry because after getting good at stand up they dont have the perserverance to be a beginner again.Pride,my frind,is a killer for a fighter.So they say things like "My ultra spinning nerve pinch will render groundwork useless".This is equivelent to saying "My full nelson will make all stand up fighting useless".Cingrats on crosstraining ,and keep it up

08-07-2000, 05:05 AM
I am sorry to disagree that "most" fights go to the ground. I guess I am just one of those angry people who has spent his time learning the stand up game /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Considering I had a Black Belt in Judo when I was 13 years old and competed in several state and regional level competitions I feel a little secure in giving my opinion. I have also worked as a Correctional Officer, A Police Officer in the Projects of Philadelphia, A peace Officer in New York City and as a Pa State Trooper. I have also married outside of my race and been the only White person in several rather unsavory neighborhoods. Trust me, I have had several fights, many serious. I can not think of any that went ot he ground. Sorry, maybe I am the exception but those claiming the ground is where we all end up in a real fight need a reality check. If you want to roll around on the ground while fighiting in the street then more power to you. Personaly I would rather not take the chance of getting cut by broken glass nor being pounded into concrete. Not to metnion the possibility of my opponents "friends" jumping in to help him, and don't even think about adding the element of a weapon.

Listen, there is nothing wrong with crosstraining. There is also nothing wrong with learning how to fight on the ground. However, please get some statistics to bake up all of these inflated claims of 1/3 of all fights going to the ground or 80% or whatever figure you want to use. In all honesty if you advocate groundfighting then that is where you will claim fights will end up. Likewise for those practicing striking. Taking someone to the ground is not always that easy. While attending the Pa State Police Academy we had a PT Instructor. This guy was huge and a former boxer. Well, he got into BJJ and thought that was the end all of all arts. To make a long story short he tried to take me to the ground on several occassions and could not do so. Now I weigh about 180lbs and this guy weighed at least 230-240. His arms were as big as my things /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and he was in shape. If he had trouble taking me down, and considering the fact that none of my "real" fights ended on the ground I think you can understand my skepticism.

I again have nothing against crosstraining. I even think that history supports the idea. But, by making claims of this number or that number of fights go to the gorund you become as guilty of the same narrow vision as strikers are accused of. In a fight with rules and a nice soft mat the grappler has an advantage. On the street, the last place I want to be is on the ground. If I do end up there you can bet my first priority will be to get back on my feet.



08-07-2000, 05:20 AM
>> Do most fights go to the ground? <<

No, that is just marketing hype started by the Gracie$. Real fights never never ever go to the ground. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But seriously, sometimes they do. Does it happen most of the time? Hard to say one way or the other. Is the risk significant enough to be concerned about? I think so.

ying jow
08-07-2000, 05:20 AM

You actually proved my point when you said you have a black belt in judo. All I was saying is that if a person has been trained in some sort of grappling system especially judo or wrestling they are extremely difficult to take down. Therefore what I was trying to point out is that it is mostly people who haven't had some sort of training that are falling down.

I beleive some sort of wrestling should be incorporated into all standup systems just to learn how not to be taken down. I also think if you never go live with a wrestler you will not be ready for the explosive entry that they will come at you with.

You must admit that your Judo background has to have something to do with these people not being able to take you down.

Tai Mai Shu
08-07-2000, 06:07 AM
Buddy if you are fighting me then rest assured, it'll ALWAYS go to the ground, hehe. But seriously though it doesn't matter if most fights go to the ground or stay on the feet. You shouldn't train to merely be prepared for most fights. You should train to be prepared for ALL fights. A fight can be anything. Do 95% of all fights really end up on the ground? Hell if I know. Is there a big enough possibility for us to really worry about it? Definitely. Assuming that you guys do not look upon ground fighting as your preferred strategy, then if you do end up on the ground in a street situation then it is usually because you have been put there and are in a disadvantaged situation (ex. a big guy might be on top pounding you or be dragging you down in a side headlock). In such desperate circumstances, if you are unfamiliar with the science of groundfighting then believe you me...you are screwed. I personally prefer the ground strategy because when you're a good groundfighter its simply much easier to force your typical opponent into your game and control the situation especially since most guys out there don't have a clue as to how to fight effectively on the ground. I'm not saying that groundfighting is the best or more important than stand up fighting, but it is the most applicable.

Is that your chi I smell??

08-07-2000, 06:25 AM
I BELIEVE MOST FIGHTS GO TO THE GROUND BECAUSE MOST PEEPS CAN'T FIGHT!!!...It is true...most of us have trained to fight standup...kung fu, muy thai, boxing, full contact karate etc...against a normal JOE...then the guy would be KO in secs! The average JOE fighting the average JOE would throw haymakers...maybe KO someone...most of the time end up grappling! BJJ guys took the step further by simply skipping the standup fighting route and hitting the ground with opponents! It is now address to all competent MMA that both standup fighting and ground fighting works in real fights! In the NHB world you have to know both to win or survive...otherwise...one or the other is fine...

08-07-2000, 08:00 AM
the numbers i threw out were my observations,certainly not anything authoritative.Just giving my opinion /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

08-07-2000, 08:12 AM
i dont think most fights go to ground but thats only my experience. i have ahd only one and thats because i let him get off the ground and as i was walking away he grabbed my hair and throw me to the ground andstarted hitting me.
i agree that if kf people are falling over in fights its usually because their stance isnt what it should be. i can say that once someone who knew what they were doing got me on the ground i would be a pretzel but i have tryed against some bjj people and i have found ways of stoping them but if i let them get a hold of me im in big trouble. i just got videos to show how they use leverage and the way our joints move against us. so if i can think quickly(a major problem with me) i usually cant get out of it but it doesnt hurt me( but not all the time **** an armbar hurts)
see ya

08-07-2000, 08:34 AM
I've read articles and stuff about all of this, and I'll also have to disagree about fights going to the ground that much. I value cross-training very much and I am planning to take BJJ myself soon, but from all of the fights that I've actually seen and been in, there was only ONE fight where the fighters went to the ground. Guess what? Their friends jumped in, stomped and kicked 'em. I would say that from MY experience, in watching and being in real street fights that about 1% of the fights end up on the ground (please bear in mind that this is from my experience). I think that ground fighting is important, but not as important as grapplers and martial artists claim. Grapplers are amazing one-on-one fighters (I know, I lost a lot against them), but I have yet to see one fight a group of enemies while in the mount or guard positions. I usually fight more than one enemy at a time in my fights (I guess because I can go insane when I'm mad).

bean curd
08-07-2000, 01:18 PM
all arts have their own flavour, and we all know this, so art knocking is not the issue, crosstraining is not the issue. does the fight go to the ground, is the question, and i am also an advicate, that from my own experiance, not once have they gone to ground.

in a controlled enviroment, all things are possable, but in real life, there are to many variables that come up, seen and unseen.

for myself, to go to ground, is dangerous, as it has been already said, it's not the one your fighting that's the problem, it his mates who are with him

anyone here that has either been a controller at a club or experianced a situation in a similiar enviroment, will understand what i have said.

for myself, i believe ground fighting is a terrific art, with many attributes, however, like i said, to go to ground in an uncontrolled enviroment, is really asking for trouble

well my 2 cents worth.


08-07-2000, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tru-MA:
I've read articles and stuff about all of this, and I'll also have to disagree about fights going to the ground that much. I value cross-training very much and I am planning to take BJJ myself soon, but from all of the fights that I've actually seen and been in, there was only ONE fight where the fighters went to the ground. Guess what? Their friends jumped in, stomped and kicked 'em).[/quote]

Ditto. The street fights I've seen has one guy being bent or down, and then the backup rushes in w/a blade or weapon. As an additional backup, there is always someone in the back ground who is packing a gun.

08-07-2000, 02:12 PM
Well go do your own examinations. Examine all military style hand-to hand combat arts that were actually used and tested on the batterfield. Some examples are Aikijujitsu (used by the samarais), ninjitsu, bajiquan (used by bodyguards) 108 chin-na techniques of eagle claw (created by chinese general), krav maga (used by israeli special forces) and various types of battlefield arts used by various countries around the world. All are predominantly stand-up fighting arts with just some or no groundfighting. Now examine all arts with a lot of groundfighting, either 50 percent or more like judo, jujitsu, sambo, wrestling, and shootfighting (muay thai/wrestling hybrid). Now upon your examination you will find that 99 percent of the time, styles with 50 percent or more groundfighting were created for and evolved as a tournament sport. Judo, jujitsu, wrestling, sambo, and shootfighting-- all created for sport, and was never used on the battefield. Judo and jijutsu, where a majority of the techniques can only be done if the opponent is wearing a "gi" uniform, is definitely a competition sport. Same thing applies to russian "jacket wrestling" known as sambo. What exactly is so different in a tournament type NHB arena, and out on the battlefield? I don't have a clear cut answer. I can just tell by researching the different types of arts and what they were created for and how they were used that there is a difference.

08-07-2000, 04:17 PM
Actually,jujutsu was created for RL combat vs armed opponents.Knowing how dangerous a samurai in full armor was,the idea was to get him off his feet where his weapon was useless and his armor a hindrance.
Now,TK,I agree,the ground is to be avoided at all costs on the street,if possible.A lot of good posts have been made about why we should all crosstrain,so i wont go into that.
I believe that,including the friends factor,the biggest reason to not ground a RL fight is that it immobilizes you.You never know when ya may need to run(my personal favorite combat skill).
I long for the day when this will be a moot discussion and all martial artists will do things the old way,which means being ready for any situation and knowing when to ground a fight or keep it up

08-07-2000, 06:53 PM
I think that the real problem with martial artists being so easily dropped to the ground is that in Amertica stance training has been downplayed. I saw a Kuk Sool Wan master from Korea fend off over 1/2 dozen Judo blacks belts, each one in turn trying to take him to the ground. He was so firmly rooted that they were unable to move him. My Judo instructor also would tout that most fights would end up on the ground but I have observes otherwise. Most fights I have seen have occured in bars and have amounted to slugfests that lasted a mere few seconds. I think the ground mentality has played well into the hands of Americans as in the past 50 years western stand up sports such as boxing have suffered popularity while sports such as wrestling have boomed.(How many high schools do you know that offer boxing as opposed to wrestling.)
Only a very skilled and controled opponent can turn a groundfight into a victory for himself(for example if he's down on his back). You have to keep your head stay calm as when you are wrestling you will burn up far more energy than if you are standup fighting. Brazilian Ju Jitsu does have it's merrits-women who might find themselves in such a position during a sexual assault could be able to use the techniques to save themselves.
But honestly, in REAL life, in my real fights(5) I have not faced anyone who knew how to throw an effective punch let alone have admirable ground skills. The guys I was mixing it up with were one move wonders-the sucker move guys. In our training we should train as if we would someday face an opponent of greater than or equal skill, but realize that it will probably never happen.
On one last note, I have watched quite a few bar scraps and can say that I have never seen any ground tactics or takedowns attempted as the parties involved were usually too afraid of getting that close as the infighting range is where you can suffer the most striking damage. But it can always happen-anything can. But in my experience, any guy with 6 months boxing experience can usually hold his own against most of the would be badasses that he will meet on the street or in a bar grappling skills or not.

08-07-2000, 07:09 PM
People with wrestling experience are common depending on what part of the country you live in, but for the most part encountering someone who has decent submission fighting skills is pretty slim. Alot of brawlers might try to headlock or slam you though using muscle & little technique.

08-07-2000, 07:12 PM
I have heard that 90 percent of street fights go to ground but I could be wrong.
I have also heard that under 2 percent of all street fights involved a kung fu practitioner.


"take the pebble from my hand"The old monk from the TV show"Kung Fu"

"I just go at it as best I can"
Benny the Legend.

08-07-2000, 07:34 PM
Good point flavour54. I think under 0.000001 percent of all street fights involve a BJJ practitioner.

08-07-2000, 07:41 PM
I don't care if only 2% of fight go to the ground. Any percentage is enough to learn what to do there.

But there is a better reason. Allot of people have said how rare it is to see anyone with any ground skills in a real world fight.
I agree. I've seen allot of fights in my time and I've only seen ONE go to the ground. It involved the larger, more aggresive man on top head butting the guy he was holding beneath him into unconciousness, and then some.

So, if very few people have any skill on the ground, what kind of awesome advantage do you have being one of those very few people? A big one.


08-07-2000, 09:36 PM
JWTAYLOR, I agree completely. It is a BIG advantage to know both the stand-up and ground game. It may never be used but just like a weapon, I would rather have a gun and never use it than not have one when I need it.

You know we are gonna be ridiculed about this statement.. "I saw a Kuk Sool Wan master from Korea fend off over 1/2 dozen Judo blacks belts, each one in turn trying to take him to the ground. He was so firmly rooted that they were unable to move him."
Mainly from the groundfighting folks...ah well.. heh heh

Anyway, from my experience I have only seen a couple of fights go to the ground... and even there, there wasn't really any submissions.

I'm just wondering how many people really believe ANHB competitions are like actual streetfights? Just wondering... also I'm wondering how many here compete in ANHB? I know Jojitsu is training to... anyone else?

08-07-2000, 10:34 PM
even if it were 2% then knowing my luck all the fight i have would goto the ground man.


Hung Wai
08-07-2000, 10:41 PM
The only fights I've seen go to the ground were situations where the fighters were not very experienced. These were also the nastiest fights I've ever seen. I watched two guys drag each other through thorn bushes, in the summer while wearing tank tops. I saw one guy take down another, and then he got the crap kicked out of him by friends of the person he had just taken down. The last one I saw was where two guys hit the ground, and once again friends intervened and one guy walked away (very luckily) with his back sliced open. I train to always avoid going to the ground. I grapple with my friends who have shown me very basic ground fighting so I have an understanding of it. I train kung fu, but I have the highest respect for grapplers. I think it is excellent to know grappling, it will give you a better understanding of fighting overall and how to avoid ground situations in the streets. Using it in the street as primary attack I think is extremely high risk. You had better be with friends who will cover your back because you have just commited yourself to that one person on the ground. In the ring, grappling is definately effective because there are rules. In the streets there are none.

08-07-2000, 11:07 PM
I fought an nhb fight about three years ago.I bounced for 5 years and got some RL fighting exp.Heres the differences that I see
1)unlike most street fights,your opponent in nhb is skilled,in shape and extremely aggresive.The biggest surprise I got in my nhb fight was the intensity of my opponent,it was pretty cool.Im my experience,most street fighters never reach this level of mental focus(some do though)
2)nhb is safe.If you lose an nhb match,and are in shape for the fight,you arent gonna die and you probably wont get hurt too bad.Any bum,drunk,or punk with his friends can kick you to death in RL.No matter how good you are,one mistake(and we all make mistakes,even if its rare)may be fatal.In the case of RL,the mistake may be that you didnt properly evaluate the threat and leave.
3)the nhb envirament is stable.Theres no grease,overturned chairs,or dark steps oto trip you up.Thus,its usually in your best interest to Keep It Simple,whereas in nhb you gotta move move move and be evasive
you choose an nhb fight,as did your opponent.In the street,only a fool chooses to fight,you fight if you have too(my opinion only)
I was in ,probably,10 or 12 real fights as a bouncer( as opposed to grabbing someone and throwing em out,or a scuffle)and two riots that wrecked the bars I was in .Now,I take a pilots philosophy when I evaluate a fight,any fight I walk away from (without serious injury) isnt a loss.Thus,i never lost a RL fight,but I didnt win em all either
I fought one nhb fight and got the holy poo beat out of me.The guy got in on me real fast,we went to ground,after some manuevering( the guy was FAST) he got the mount and beat the crap out of me.I tried to bridge him off,to tie him up(got me headbutted twice,owwie),and he finally just beat me down.As a side note,the worst thing a fighter can hear as he leaves the ring is "you got a good heart".Translation:"you got beat up really good". I have not competed since ,due to injuries(NOT recieved in the fight,hehe)
To me ,this was a real eye opening experience.Like I said,i had been in numerous Rl fights,but nhb was a different game,harder in some ways but safer in others.My face looked ugly after the beating ,but I wasnt hurt too bad,whereas in the street I might have been severly injured or killed.There is crossover,and Id hate to streetfight any nhb guy,but nhb itself is FAR safer than the street

08-08-2000, 01:47 AM
In my younger and rowdier days, I had 15 or 20 scraps on the street and just about all of them went to the ground.I have had several NHB cage fights and a truckload of Dog Brothers NHB weapons matches. I would agree somewhat with Jimmy23’s analysis of NHB type fighting. It is a more controlled environment, and while the risk of death is less, I’m not sure it is safer. I have never come close to being hurt in a street fight, but have had a number of pretty severe injuries from NHB type fighting.

As far as weapons and groundfighting go, I have trained in a variety of weapons for about 20 years. If my opponent has a weapon and I am unarmed and unable to get the hell out of the situation, the exact place I want to be is on the ground with him. 9 times out of 10, if I can get an opponent with a weapon to the ground I can get it away pretty easily. If he is able to remain standing, the percentage drops down to about 1 out of 10.

As far as the statement, "I saw a Kuk Sool Wan master from
Korea fend off over 1/2 dozen Judo blacks belts, each one in turn trying to take him to the ground.
He was so firmly rooted that they were unable to move him." Yeah, right. Give me a break.

And here in Southern California, with BJJ and other groundfighting schools on every other corner, your chances of running into a skilled grappler are pretty high.

Jaguar Wong
08-08-2000, 02:35 AM
"And here in Southern California, with BJJ and other groundfighting schools on every other corner, your chances of running into a skilled grappler are pretty high."

Yeah, but what are the odds that you'll be hitting on a drunken bjj guy's girlfriend in a club and get into a scrap with said skilled individual? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I don't know what the stats involved are about going to the ground, but I do feel that the best way to make sure you won't be on the business end of a whuppin' it would serve you well to at least train with exprienced grapplers, even if you're just sticking to your style to try and prevent the ground and pound.

I've got the same "friend" (6'1" 240lbs), but he's been a wrestler for a while, and he does know how effective it is. He doesn't feel that it's the end all, be all, but I have yet to see someone prevent him from shooting in with a double leg and takin' the fight to the air (we all know where the fight goes after that /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). I do agree that it can be very difficult to get a good takedown sometimes, but I think that comes from a solid background of dealing with grapplers. Not just practicing a couple of anti takedown maneuvers on a partner.

I'm not bashing bjj, or your ability to prevent takedowns, but in all the MMA and NHB events that I have seen, bjj tends to be weak in the takedown department. It seems that most will employ an almost entangling type of takedown (getting in close enough to wrap around the opponent tripping them up). It's the wrestlers that I see slipping under the haymaker rights and firing in with a single or double leg.

I personally have started rolling around with a couple of wrestlers, only so I would be better able to defend the takedown, or be able to get back onto my feet (where I'm much more comfortable). After a few weeks, something kinda unexpected happened (for me anyways), I started to love the feel of locking on a submission, or passing the guard into a sidemount. I love the positioning "chess game" involved. But most of all, I love the fact that if someone chokes me out, they show me how to do it, and how to prevent, and possibly escape it afterwards. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm still more comfortable with my striking ability, though. The next on my to do list is to learn some more throws.

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com (http://www.superaction.com)

08-08-2000, 03:09 AM
Let me say that i work for Mass. Dept. of Youth Services(juveinile detention),and for the past four years, i've seen one fight go to the ground!
I admit i don't break these fights up right away ,mostly just to see what happens,unless their is a weapon involved.
In all these fights(roughly 15- 20),the only time i had seen someone go to the ground/attempt to grapple, was because one kid was frustrated with his opponents boxing abilities. Even when he rushed in ,he took a serious uppercut ,then immediately was caught in a front headlock. On top of that just picture two people rolling around on the ground with living room furniture in the way....It wasn't pretty!

Don't get me wrong I learned some very usefull techniques from a co-worker who does BJJ.But it was only useful ONCE you're on the ground. I'm not saying i'ma perfect "stand up" guy,but from what i've seen ground fighting is not a cure all.

To shed some more light w/out biasm,restraints i've witnessed/performed tended to go to the ground, if it involved two people.If their was one person being restrained by two it was stand up ,and ground,but mostly stand up. Another time i saw one guy get blasted trying to rush in another,once he was fell down the other guy didn't jump on him(a person who is ignorant of ground fighting would feel uncomfortable doing this) but just stomped him a cuple of times.

Hey, stand up,ground, short range,long range,punches,kicks,weapons ALL happen in a fight and always will.We all know this,every circumstance is different, we can only attempt to be as proficient,as we can in all.some may just prefer one over the other!

08-08-2000, 03:23 AM
Jaguar Wong,
It is a known fact that 90 percent of all BJJ trained stylist have hot girlfriends so the odds are pretty high on hitting on one of them at a club /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif-ED

08-08-2000, 03:33 AM

If 90% of BJJers have Hot Girl Friends then why are they grappling with Jaguar Wong instead of with their girl friends?

08-08-2000, 04:01 AM
Good question, maybe he looks good in hot pants. It's one of those hidden mysteries that the world may never know /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif-ED

Jaguar Wong
08-08-2000, 04:37 AM
...The world may never know...

That is unless one of you chumpies can choke me out and put some hot pants on me ... That would be kind of a no win situation for both of us, huh? /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

08-08-2000, 10:47 AM

[This message has been edited by Buhma (edited 08-09-2000).]

08-09-2000, 12:42 AM
As far as the statement, "I saw a Kuk Sool Wan master from
Korea fend off over 1/2 dozen Judo blacks belts, each one in turn trying to take him to the ground.
He was so firmly rooted that they were unable to move him." Yeah, right. Give me a break.

Well, you just had to be there I guess scince I WAS one of those blackbelts. Just as we would have to be there to validate all the "NHB, steel cage," and whatever else youre claiming. Knifefighter, if you are as experienced as you claim to be you seem to be awful closeminded to anything that has do do with anything but grappling. If you will recall a few weeks ago I posted about a minor scap I was in at a local club. I successfully struck my way out of the situation saving my friend and myself against the barbarism of a 6'1" thug who had a warrant out for his arrest. Hey I know that I can't prove this happened with mere words just as you can't with yours. but I was there and it did happen. This was fight number 5 for me and I have yet to go to the ground in any of them. I hold a 2nd Dan in Juo, I could have taken him to the ground as easily as you could have but chose not to because such fighting burns up energy like crazy. And the fight lasted a mere 3 seconds as opposed to however long it would have taken me to submit him.
My point-I have been in the martial arts for 16 years now. I have seen a lot of things that have more often than not blurred my thinking or caused me to reevaluate what I already believed. My Sifu says that an open mind is a hallmark of a true Master and wise men speak because they have something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something. What does that say about you Knifefighter?

08-09-2000, 01:05 AM
i heard that 90% of all statistics are made up.

08-09-2000, 01:13 AM
I believe very strongly in the striking aspect of a well rounded fighting game and train and fight accordingly. I also know the power of a good grappling game. I too have been in the martial arts for many years- over 20 now- and have had to reevaluate my thinking many times. However, based on all my experience, I still stand by my original skepticism. I am open minded, but not a fool. If someone can prove something to me then I will be convinced, but I have just seen too many people who "cannot be taken down" get humiliated after making that statement.

It’s funny how Olympic gold medalists in judo and wrestling cannot prevent the takedown, but some no-name "master" from Korea could stop an attack by five judokas. Maybe that (and your 5 fights that stayed standing) says something about your takedown abilities, rather than his ability to stop it. As far as finishing with grappling in 3 seconds, can you say suplex, flying arm bar, double leg slam, osotogari, or rolling knee bar? To tell you the truth, I doubt very much that you are a second dan in judo, as you should know how quick and devastating judo throws can be on the street.

[This message has been edited by Knifefighter (edited 08-09-2000).]

08-09-2000, 01:43 AM
brat...you sound like you're exaggerating alot of what you're saying...I agree with KNIFEFIGHTER...I don't see how a korean master was holding off 6 bb in judo...is this an exhibition or real fight???

08-09-2000, 05:25 AM
IMHO.all it takes to "uproot" a guy is to bear hug him,lift, and slam(esp from behind).Maybe the master couldnt be pushed,but did even one of the black belts attempt to just pick him up?As a grappler,you should know that if you get a guy even one inch off the ground the throw is cake.I think some of the anti grappling people just dont listen when wwe say that ALL aspects should be developed.It seems to me that there is a lot of defensiveness there.
I would also note that old time strong men did similar feats where several grown men couldnt push them.

08-09-2000, 08:52 PM
Good point about lifting, my coach used to say you have to lift a good wrestler up before you can take him down.

08-10-2000, 07:40 AM
I boxed and trained Wing Chun for 10 years before learning grappling, and as a long time striker I can tell you it is true. Over around 90% of all fights do go to the ground for one reason or another.
I was in the Marines for 5 years, and have been in many, many bar fights and rumbles that break out amongst drunken sailors and marines at the e-clubs, and if you knew how to wrestle you would win a good 99% of those fights.
Even in the fights I've seen and participated in on the street (I grew up in a low income neighborhood) most fights went right to the ground.
In my experience it is advisable to train primarily for grappling, and train striking secondary if you want to train realistically.
I was a hand to hand combat instructor for the Marine Corps and it was amazing how many fights between suppossed "Strikers" went right to the ground.
Remember the fight between to so called master strikers of Wing Chun Kung Fu? A guy called Emin Bostepe attacked a senior student of Yip Man's named William Chung. Guess what.....the fight went right to the ground!
Sorry, but guys who say the majority of fights don't go to the ground either haven't been in as many fights as they like to portray on the internet, or are backing the agenda of their stand-up martial art, which means they would want people to think that their art is the most important for a real fight because it is striking only.

ps: killah-b, I was a counselor at an institution for troubled youth and around 99% of all the fights that happened on a daily basis there for the 4 years I worked there went to the ground.


[This message has been edited by jojitsu27 (edited 08-10-2000).]

08-10-2000, 08:07 AM
Brat -

Concerning your master friend who was so firmly rooted he couldn't be taken down - surely you mean that he countered all the takedowns, rather than relying on "rooting" in the kungfu sense.

I just want to clarify so readers don't get the wrong idea.

08-10-2000, 08:18 AM

While I respect your right to your own opinion I have to disagree with you. Of course, I have not been in as many fights as I portray /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and I am only trying to shore up the poor reputation of my art of Wing Chun /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It may very well be true that, in your experience, most fights went to the ground. However, my experience has been the exact opposite. Perhaps, you are trying to shore up your chosen art of grappling. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

To give a little background; I was in the Army and served for a time with a Ranger Unit. After leaving the Military I worked mostly security work before entering Law Enforcement. I worked as a Correctional Officer, and even served as Defensive Tactics Instructor for the prison. I worked in New YOrk City as a Peace Officer, similar to a Housing Officer with arrest/police powers limited to a specific geographic area. I then returned to Philadelphia and worked as a Housing Police Officer after which I joined the Pennsylvania State Police. I have had the opportunity to train with several "tactical" units and even given defenisve and edged weapon instruction to some.

Based on my "experience" most fights do not go to the ground. Sorry, not in my experience. Ast o not having participated in many "real" fights. I would be glad to show you the many scars I have accumulated over the years. Guess what, the reason I have scars is that many of my opponenets had weapons. The last place I wanted to be was on the ground. Notwithstanding the fact that oftentimes more than one person was involved.

Do street fights go to the ground? Yes, sometimes. Is groundfighting a valuable asset to add to ones arsenal? Again, yes. Is grappling the ultimate answer to every situation? No, no more than striking is the answer to every situation.

My previous posts still stand. My view is that one should delve into the art of thier choice because they like it and it meets their needs. If ground fighting is the thing you enjoy then do it. Likewise if striking. But, no art holds a monopoly on effective techniques nor is it the answer to all questions.

The topic of this post Was Do all or most fights go to the ground. The answer is no and perhaps yes. Depends on your perception and your circumstances. In my experience most fights DO NOT go to the ground. Your experience may be different but consider this, most law enoforcement agencies train not for groundfighting but for control and to a lesser extent striking. Must be a reason. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



08-11-2000, 01:22 AM
i hear that 90% of americans chose jif and 4 out of 5 dentists chew trident.

Dragon Warrior
08-11-2000, 01:38 AM
The problem with groundfighting in the street is simple. In the street there are no rules. You can be trying to get someone into an armbar and he can start biting you. We have to remember that sport jusjitsu is a sport just like boxing and taekwondo. im not saying it cant be used, im just saying it works well with rules. Once those rules are eliminated, they lose alot of techniques that may have worked before. The best thing to do is to learn how to defend yourself on the ground with no rules, learn what kind of groundfighting you can use without getting bit, or getting struck in the groin, etc.

08-11-2000, 01:40 AM
So far we have experienced people leaning in opposite directions. The ultimate point here is that a good fighter takes the fight were he wants it to go. If he wants it on the ground he will do his best to do so. If he wants it not to go down then the same is true. There are no givens. The classic "ground" versus "upright" clash will depend on whos better at leading the direction of the game. Will the grounder get him down? Will the hitter keep him up? It all boils down to whos better at his game.

08-17-2000, 02:34 AM
Wing Chun brother, I realize that you have had a different experience when it comes to street fights and I in no way doubt it. I think it is quite possible that in Korea somewhere there is a guy who thinks that 99% of all fights involve tae kwon do kicking! And in his experience that is probably the truth.
The fact is, you are a high level Wing Chun practitoner (I assume) and that is going to affect what happens in your fights against unskilled street thugs. So it is possible you are going to see things in a completely different light than me.
Another thing about why I probably view the majority of fights as going to the ground...I am from Oklahoma, the heart of American Wrestling. We have produced more state champions and Olympic gold medalists than any other state in wrestling. ANY time you get into a confrontation on the streets here there is a 99% chance that the guy you are facing has wrestling experience. We start in our cribs here!
There is a very, very good chance that you will bump into on the street or going about your business someone who has been wrestling since age 5 in the peewee leagues.
This makes someone a very good takedown artist and defintily puts a slant on groundfighting in this area. Most people who start martial arts around here start in High school or as adults, while most people (alot more than do martial arts) who wrestle started in peewee around the ages of 5 to 10.
This makes a big difference in how the fights go down around here.

Anyway, to make a long story short, my Wing Chun and boxing has revolved around defending itself against grappling because the abundance of grapplers in my area. And eventually I learned it might be good to learn submissons and good ground postitioning also so I crosstrained in BJJ.
My views on the reality of combat are definitly molded by my environment and what I've experienced!
But I am glad you are representing Wing Chun to the law enforcement community in your area, I hope you get them to make some changes in how things are done. The police officers in Tulsa still use alot of lame techniques from Shotokan karate that basically make them easy prey for some street thug who knows alittle boxing or wrestling.
Have you been able to institute any Wing Chun training in your department?

08-17-2000, 03:13 AM
The reason I started taking Brazilian JiuJitsu (...here comes the confessions of a sucker...) was because I saw the Royce Gracie. I believed that all fights end up on the ground because I didn't have any real fighting skill and I always ended up on the ground because I sucked!
As I've said before I no longer study BJJ.

I liked Sihing73's post. It made sense to me.

I wish that I was good enough to answer that question "yes". As in...."Do all fights end up on the ground...well, yours do when you fight me." /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
But alas, I'm not that good...yet. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

08-17-2000, 03:30 AM
I bounced for many years and currently compete in nhb and submission events(last 2 1/2 yrs) Every single one of my fights went to the ground. 80% of fights I have seen went to the ground.

The reason why is simple, one guy is going to get the worst of the punching exchange. The guy on the short end is going to try and grab/clinch/shoot and take the guy who is winning down. Anyone who says this is not true, in my opinion is being dishonest.

If a striker is fighting an individual and lands a clean shot and the guy goes down do you wait and allow him to get up? No you mount him and proceed with the beating. To do this you must get to the ground.

Obviously on a Kung Fu forum the majority of people are strikers. Your goal is to avoid the takedown and strike. So your experiences are going to be standing. Just like my experiences are taking people down being a grappler. Psychologists call this self fulfilling prophecy.

Cross training is where it is at. Wrestling/Muy Thai/bjj(no gi) is my preferred mix. I am sure there are other combos that are just as effective. Train hard but train smart and prepare for all scenarios.

As for the statements about going to the ground is bad because of your opponents friends, if you are going to fight multiple attackers you are going to get the worst standing or on the ground. Your crew should be watching your back. If they don't get some new friends.

And not to ruffle any feathers but Judo is not really a grappling art. Its stand up effectiveness in a gi is unparalleled but it is severly lacking on the ground. Judo practioners are very weak in takedowns once the gi is removed and last time I checked most people don't wear their gi's out to clubs.

08-18-2000, 05:09 AM
Hello All,

I think SifuAbel said it best. Whether a fight goes to the groudn or not will rely more on the skill of those involved than in any particular style.

I assure you I am hardly a high level practicianer more like a low level person. I am just blessed with luck /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Still, Wing Chun seems to work even for me. I think you make a valid point with the issue of environment. Different regions will stress differing needs. This is one of the reasons for the diversity of Kung Fu and martial arts in general. For example; if I live in Alaska and wear bulky clothing to protect me from the elements then my method of fighting will reflect that. Likewise if I live in a tropical climate, or a rocky area or a desert, etc. If the majority of those around me are wrestlers and train to go to the ground then I would be follish to concentrate on a different method of fighting. Unless, I could perform the otehr way at a high level. Still, I try to never fight the otehr guys game. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Sorry but I disagree with you. If your art is unable to deal with someone trying to clinch then you need to look into other things. I am hardly worried aobut someone trying to grab me aroudn the wasit and push or pull me around. What I would worry about is someone "skilled" in taking the opponent to the ground by sweeping or shooting. Still, there are ways to deal with that to. As to your comment about your "crew" watching your back; I prefer to be able to go out without having my own entourage tagging along. Also, there are times when you will be alone. You do make a good point about Judo fighitn with a GI. Still, I have seen instructors get the students warmed up and sweaty and then have them remove the tops and do Randori, a real eye opener. Judo also does have sufficient groundwork.

Listen: going along with Sifu Abel and his words of wisdom; the deciding factor will most likely be how hard you train. If I practice side stepping and stance turning for hours every day I assure you I will be able to move and it will be difficult to take me down.



bean curd
08-18-2000, 03:12 PM
gotta agree with sihing 73, sifu able, gave a statment of wisdom (bugger wish i had said that).

and this is relevent throught this whole topic, everyone has said, "from my experiance", and that is the answer too the question.

what i took to be unrealistic, was near the start of the post, which some gave percentage quotes to back up their own personnal experiances.

mma, like you, i have been in the situations of close fighting in a controlling compacity, and being one of those that said, you gotta watch there mates not the one your fighting, has nothing to do with, multiple attackers.

if you have been in these situations, then you know as well as i do, that the reason you have backup, isn't because they doubt your ability, they are there to cover your six, and also bring the situation under control, with minimal disruption.

i'm sure that from your experiance, there has been the occasion (and hopefully, very few), where your counterparts, have for some reason not arrived as quick as you would have liked, what if you had gone to ground, you know as well as i, that you would be doing peripheral vision, and this would take priority, while still controlling the troublemaker.

going to ground, in this enviroment, without back up is asking for it.

Paul DiMarino
08-18-2000, 05:41 PM

I agree, but in such an unpredictable event as a street fight, it is impossible to have any givens or sure things.

True: a fight will more than likely not include two martial artists.

True: the trained/good fighter will dictate most of the fight

However, what about things that you are unprepared for? Say that you walk into your house after a hard days work, and are immediately tackled from behind by a rather large guy who you inadvertantly had interrupted his looting of your house. I doubt he'll agree to getting back to your feet to see if he can take down when you're ready. In all actuality, he probably start trying to pound your head in with all his might.

I'm not even going to get into the mental aspects of defending an attack like that, but without some solid groundwork, you are toast. I know monkey has some groundwork, so good for you. About 99% of the traditional styles I've seen have none (or at least have none as they are taught now). Sure they have throwing, chin na, and what not, but without some solid work on the mat, you'll lack the experience, timing, etc to actually make your techniques functional.

I'd rather be prepared for anything than be on the ground being beat mercilessly from an attacker that blind sided me. I wouldn't want to put my or my family's lives in danger because I was too proud to cross-train. Unfortunately (and I don't know why it is unfortunate) for many kung fu practitioners, the only way to get a good grappling base is head off to a Judo or BJJ school. Sorry, but Dintang Ground Boxing seems a bit hard to find. BJJ and Judo may not be CMA, but they are **** decent and effective systems. Both can compliment kung fu greatly.

08-18-2000, 10:00 PM
I think almost everyone agrees that some ground work is needed in a martial artists toolbox, but how much should be enough and what techniques should they be. I've found that my slightly less than 6 months of BJJ( this was several years ago) enough for most street fights and enough for when someone in the dojo wants to "grapple", but I'd be tappin like a mo fo against a serious ground fighter.

So how much and what should a striker learn?

08-19-2000, 07:06 AM
Wow, interesting discussion everyone. I really don't have much to add except for the fact that I think people should constantly put themselves in a vulnerable state in order to learn. I can only explain my own experiences. Most of the fights I've been in have gone to the ground. Perhaps it's because I am mostly a grappler and can usually take people there. (Grappling skills don't always mean the floor either, it is just as useful to be able to manuever off of walls, pin people to cars, etc.)
I am not a big time streetfighter (far from it), but the one fight that I got beat up in was when I was 15 against a larger individual. I lost because it went to the ground and I had no skills there. I remember straightblasting this big guy and he tripped down a few stairs, but when I turned to walk away he tackled me. Pounded me pretty good. I studied BJJ, judo, and wrestling from then on, and during my years have had a few other fights which I took to the ground and won. Some were more intense than my 15 year old experience, and I believe that it was my grappling knowledge that helped me. However, I do believe in the power of striking, and actually like the strikes of wing chun too to be honest. I've mentioned before that I incorporate a lot of wing chun elbows, and some knees, headbutts, and fists into my BJJ along with wreslting takedowns. (Good god, I think I'm practicing JOJITSU! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) I'm not too sure why everyone wants to bicker with everyone else, but I think if everyone cross trained it would end a lot of these flame wars. That's only my opinion though.

Jo, good to see you posting, and might I add that you are posting with some great insight.

Take care,

08-19-2000, 08:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul DiMarino:
I'm not even going to get into the mental aspects of defending an attack like that, but without some solid groundwork, you are toast. I know monkey has some groundwork, so good for you. About 99% of the traditional styles I've seen have none (or at least have none as they are taught now). Sure they have throwing, chin na, and what not, but without some solid work on the mat, you'll lack the experience, timing, etc to actually make your techniques functional.


I'm going to agree that a good number of styles don't do work that involves getting below knee level. I don't know if it's 99% though. I've seen many TCMA styles that have a good sence of position and fight from many possible angles and dimentions. Not all of BJJ is done on it's belly. Neither is all of chin na done with straight legs. Much of the chin na I know ends up in a pin. Monkey is not the only kung fu style that has a low center of gravity. I don't recall being anti cross training. I do however recommend people to really learn what is to be offered in what they do, then look for the other pieces.

Wait! somethings wrong here, people are agreeing with me. Am I in the right board?

08-19-2000, 08:43 AM

If it makes you feel better I will disagree with you /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Everything you say is wrong and I am your complete opposite.

There, feel better now /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif LOL



08-20-2000, 12:10 AM
Ah thats better. Now I know where i am. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

08-20-2000, 10:38 AM
sifu abel your last post is right on the mark,altough, where the fight goes it does not matter much ,it is your skills that counts ,if you put two fighters of the same level ,I will put all my money with the striker,so far, after reading the posts, my impression is that, bjj people and wrestlers that preach ground fighting show a higher IQ level than our kung fu brothers ,when it comes to fighting strategy and training,I say this, because for bjj guys groundfighting is most of what they do and thats is their SPECIALTY,not many train to fight standing,developing striking power,footwork ,rooting,balance and so on,that is why they get good at it ,they specialise in one area ,only,and will try to fight you there, were they are stronger and more natural ,but some KF guys think that by taken a few lessons in ground fighting they will have a chance against a more experience bjj, ok crosstraining is not a bad idea ,but if he trained 10 years bjj and I take 6 month lessons ,guess who have the advantage?,how come none of them wants to learn standing methods ,an most KF people consider "essential" to learn ground figthting,so my question is ,isn't it better to research and perfect the techniques that you have ,than trying to learn new ones?,and why do you let them take you to the ground,don't you think that there are plenty of opportunities to do somthing in between?,all standing striking arts have counter techniques for the take down,please next time a grappler k y a don't blame your KF,the answer is in the level of yours skills.

[This message has been edited by virus (edited 08-21-2000).]

08-20-2000, 10:44 AM
The logic goes like this. If you train for 10 things, and I train for one. And we have the same amount of training. I will be better at my one thing than you are at any one of your ten.

A groundfighter trains how to shoot, how to takedown, and how to fight there. A general practitioner trains how to strike, how to block strikes, how to grapple upright, how to shoot, how to avoid the shoot, how to ground fight.

Logically, the more focus shown by the groundfighter means his shoot is better than your counter. That means, all things being equal, unless it is harder to shoot than it is to counter, the shooting groundfighter should succeed.

BTW, I am not a groundfighter. I think that the strategy of goundfighting as preferred method is flawed. But if I run into a groundfighter that shoots, I will need to be as good at countering as he is at shooting, which means I will need to be better as an all-around fighter (more trained/skilled).

08-20-2000, 10:46 AM
Jesus, take a lesson in punctuation will ya! I got out of breath reading that last post! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Serpent (edited 08-21-2000).]

08-20-2000, 10:48 AM
I got beaten to the goal - I was referring to the post from virus! That's what you get for having a pop at someone! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

laughing tiger
08-20-2000, 12:12 PM
I think most who posted on this thread make good points. I tend to go with 1500 years of combat to the death, on a mass scale and on a one-on-one basis. In China, they had to kill hoards of invading Mongols (the world's greatest wrestling culture), and faught every concievable foe, with empty hands and every type of weapon. I put a lot of trust in the wisdom of thousands of serious, life dedicated masters...I truly think they concieved of anything that has come down the pike in the last few years. Their lives depended on it. Just my opinion. It's fine to disagree with me. :-)

08-20-2000, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by laughing tiger:
I tend to go with 1500 years of combat to the death, on a mass scale and on a one-on-one basis...I put a lot of trust in the wisdom of thousands of serious, life dedicated masters...Their lives depended on it. Just my opinion.[/quote]

You know, although I tend to speak highly of Bruce Lee and tend to understand and believe what he was saying about improvising and not being a prisoner of a style, I also understand and believe what you are saying here.
I have been thinking about this alot lately. Sometimes, we get so ingrossed in our 21st century arguments about "do the ancient techniques still apply". Well, true the Founding Fathers of martial arts didn't have to deal with guns...but otherwise, they had to deal with pretty much all the dangerous weapons of their day.
Let's think about how it all started. These men (and women) lived in a culture where they were disarmed by the governments so that they could be robbed, raped, and murdered anytime. These are people who had to fight against trained, armed soldiers with just bare hands. In some cases they were lucky enough to grab a stick or a farming tool. They were so abused and oppressed that they were even forbidden to LEARN how to fight. It was illegal to learn how to fight or defend yourself. They had to practice in secret so they developed kata and they couldn't own weapons so they practiced ways of using farm tools and sticks and poles...against swords, spears, and arrows! And imagine how well trained and dedicated the enemy was. What kind of honor would you have if you were fighting for your lord and you let some little old farmer beat you with a stick?! No, these were very violent and deadly encounters. Somebody wasn't going home that evening.
These fore fathers lived in a time and culture MUCH MORE violent than alot of us live in today.
Imagine living in a time where on any given day, you could wake up in the morning and go out to do some farming and at any moment a hord on horseback could ride into your farm or village and rape and kill your women! No wonder these men and women spent some time EVERYDAY to practice fighting and self-defense arts! And to live through a fight and share with their neihbors what they saw and tried and did and what worked and what didn't.
I don't think that there is too much in the way of empty hand techinques or stick fighting that we could "invent" today. Firearms are a different story altogether.

"There is only ONE martial art"

08-20-2000, 02:49 PM
Man you are freaking me out!! You must be psychic. I was thinking about writing the very same thing. Gee, now I have to write something different.
uhh... uhhh...Yeah, what frozen said.

08-20-2000, 05:24 PM
You guys have watched too many movies if thats how you think battles were fought in ancient times.

Also those Okinawan farmers lost.

[This message has been edited by rogue (edited 08-21-2000).]

Paul DiMarino
08-20-2000, 06:27 PM
Just a few things in a non-flaming way, so please don't take it like so:

The 1500 years of combat thing: Man fights with weapons. Ever since the beginning of man we've been using weapons to kill. Be they rocks and sticks or swords and spears, man had always fought his wars with weapons. The ancient Chinese may have been **** good fighters, but that was with spears, swords, staffs, etc. America has a good army. Does that mean in 1500 years, people will be following the infallable empty-hand system of USA troops? I'm not saying that the CMA empty hand lacks merit, but let's get real. There weren't fighting the invading Monguls empty-handed. Well, maybe in a few Shaw Bros flicks they did.

BTW, I like kung fu and am planning on practicing it again. I'm not saying that it's not effective. I'm just trying to bring a bit of reality into this conversation.

Secondly, the cross training thing: You are 100% right in saying that if somebody practices 10 things while you practice one, then you'll be better at that one than I am at any of the 10 I practice. (and it sounded so much more simple in my head) Anyway, the point of cross-training is to know enough of all ranges to take your opponent out of his element and into one yours. If he's a striker, you'll know enough not to get ko'ed, but still have the skills to grapple and take him out of his element.

Jaguar Wong
08-20-2000, 09:37 PM
Yes, Paul, that's a great explaination of cross training. Each individual will still have their favored "game". The key is to choose your style or game, and train that with intensity, then if your style is weak in another aspect, you would cross train in order to control the situation when the game changes. In order to keep the edge, you gotta bring the opponent into your game.

Some people favor striking, others favor grappling, but if you encounter someone that knows your game better than you, then you may be able to switch to a secondary game, that you perhaps know better. (ex: instead of boxing a boxer, switch to long range kicking, or move for the clinch, and throw, or takedown.)

I think I said that right. Oh well. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com (http://www.superaction.com)

08-20-2000, 10:18 PM
Thank you, I am so tired of the "but Kung Fu was made for the battlefield" arguement. There are very few systems that can make that claim. What's funny the Gladiators of Rome rebelled several times and every single time were beaten down by the Rome legions, even though on a one to one fight a Rome soldier would lose everytime to the Gladiator.-ED

BTW, I am not saying Kung Fu is ineffective, I am saying that battlefield argue is invalid.-ED

[This message has been edited by GinSueDog (edited 08-21-2000).]