Tired of kata/forms bullsheet.

[rogue]

Here's a news flash, the only techniques in a kata or form are the ones that you know. If you don't know what a movement represents then it's just a movement. It's not hidden or secret it's just a movement. You won't learn secret techniques, grappling or anti-grappling by doing kata or forms, you need a knowlegable instructor to teach you hands on how to setup, execute and target any technique. After that you need to drill those techniques and spar with those techniques.

End of rant.:p

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I've always thought that katas were more the art side of the coin. a well executed kata can be a great thing to watch in the same way that a painting can be a visual feast (except that painting doesnt usually have a combat side to it)

[rogue]

And sadly neither do the majority of kata as currently understood.

[Vash]

Dang straight, rogue. Kata/form instruction is generally sub-par.

[rogue]

I'd rather see kata delayed until later ranks. I wonder why no one has ever thought of that before?:D

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Vash
Dang straight, rogue. Kata/form instruction is generally sub-par.

I would lay the blame about 50/50 with BOTH teacher and student.

Seen it often and also see it at my current kwoon, there are some students even when shown the applications either don't grasp it or couldn't be bothered.

The BEST Teacher can't do much with a student that is not willing nor vice-versa.

Nuff said for now.

[shaolinarab]

this is a good topic, and there are several thing to keep in mind. yes, if one doesn't contemplate the applications of a movement, and then drill it, then it's just a movement. while that might not be the ultimate goal for many, that doesn't mean that just practicing some applications from forms is a futile use of them. not to be cliche, but a martial art is a martial art, and not some elite 'scientific fighting system.' there are other benefits to practicing forms such as the pure aesthetic beauty of doing them, but moreoever, the athletic benefits that you gain from going through various techniques and stances, as you develop focus, concentration, balance, leg strength, etc.

also, one reason why i personally love learning katas is that i believe they give me a great exercise to do whenever i am not training with anyone. and even in old age, if i stop fighting, i can still practice my forms in my house (or room).

others may prefer to just shadowbox or work on a wooden dummy, bag, etc., but forms are just another similar (but not exact of course) exercise. :)

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

I am with rogue in the way that form training should be done at a later stage, preferably after the basics were trained heavily.

Also I feel that many schools don't have a balanced approach do their training regime, either too much form, too much sparring, etc.

Form training like all other forms of training are tools their use needs to be taught correctly and than they need to be used correctly.

Said that I have seen many things that were done sub-par (especially sparring).

One thing also I feel strongly about forms training that the student needs to discover a lot of things from doing his forms, things that can be transmitted but won't sink in till the student found/discovered it within the form.

Just some thoughts.

[Vash]

Dang straight. Basics first, then the forms.

Hey, Isshinryu has something like that . . . ;)

I wish I could drill this into those fu(cking hooligans in the kid's class.

[joedoe]

I mostly agree with you rogue, except that I don't have an issue with teaching forms early as long as you make sure people understand that forms are not the focus of your training, and that the applications are taught and drilled properly. It is my belief that at some stage people reach a proficiency in their art that they can figure out the applications by themselves, however a good teacher is still required to get you to that stage. Once you get to that stage then you are able to unlock the 'secrets' in the form :)

['MegaPoint]

Kihon (basics) are learned when practicing the beginning forms. Static line drills or ones with movement are fragmented versions of kata training. Bag and focus-mitt training, along with 2-man drills are best done after the kihon are understood from forms training. Kihon drills are good for brand new types, but beyond that they really have no use. It's like free sparring; beyond the intermediate level it trains nothing and in fact ingrains overconfidence, bad habits and hope fighting. As for Jiyu Kumite (free sparring), perpetual randori is good for controlled grappling styles only.

Kata, hojo undo (supplemental training) and 2 -man drills are all you need at the Shodan level or beyond. If your ryu or system doesn't use these things (2-man drills) then that schoolboy karate is good enough for most modern karate purposes.

Kata is where you string basics together and often repeat movements on both sides. Kihon line training is used to take up time. All the techs you can learn- advanced, intermediate and beginner- are in the kata. You can "drill" your basics with PROPER forms training. Think about it.

[SanSoo Student]

So your saying...all those little black belt kids in TKD and Karate have learned all the basics through forms?
I always thought basics had to be developed with stance/strength training also... Having a black belt/sash should not be something easily accomplished by most little kids.

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by SanSoo Student
So your saying...all those little black belt kids in TKD and Karate have learned all the basics through forms?
I always thought basics had to be developed with stance/strength training also... Having a black belt/sash should not be something easily accomplished by most little kids.

Kids below 16 should never be awarded yudansha rank or a black sash. Most adults practice "Schoolkid" karate, too.

So, no, I'm saying that if all those little kids and "big kids" did learn their basics from forms maybe karate/chuan shu would be "effective" again, and it's original intent would return, or would have never been omitted. That way sparring wouldn't be diluted kickboxing and kickboxing wouldn't seem more effective than kung fu/karate. You can train kihon (basics) some at the beginning, but after you learn your first form, the frequency should be lessened.

Is what I posted hard to comprehend? I would guess for most the answer would be yes. It's such an odd/unfamiliar angle that I present.

Put another way, train with SOME kihon drills and LOTS of kata, hojo undo and 2-man drills. Kata teaches stance training, too. Hojo undo is all about body hardening, tendon strengthening and strength training. Try this with your students and tell me what kind of results you get.

Does San Soo have forms? Sorry if it doesn't. Peace...

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I dont see why a child shouldnt be able to attain a black belt. thats like saying that short people shouldnt be able to get one either. I just dont see how many kids CAN get one. In all my training (about 6 years all up I guess) I have only met one kid who I think had the discipline and skill for a black belt (well hes brown belt atm, but by the time hes a bb he will probably be about 13)

Of course he would never win a fight against a grown man, but then I would probably never win a fight against Andre the giant or Shaquille O neil. that doesnt mean I cant be a good fighter in my own right.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by rogue
You won't learn secret techniques, grappling or anti-grappling by doing kata or forms, you need a knowlegable instructor to teach you hands on how to setup, execute and target any technique.
Says you. But here is a news flash, there are people out there pulling techniques from forms without having a teacher hold their hand the whole way. If I had my choice of only learning the drills versus only learning the forms, I would pick forms. The drills are in the forms, you just have to pull them out.

And I disagree, I prefer that short forms are taught to beginners. It gives them the best type of exercise and teaches their body how to move.

[KnightSabre]

I did 5 years of kung fu forms.

Another reason why I love BJJ so much, no forms :-)

[Daredevil]

I think I've been at this before, but ...

I 'sort of' agree, but only to a point. However, the more I gain skill at 'reading' and practising forms, the more I'm realizing that there are no 'moves', there's just movement. Of course, it depends a bit on how your style/teacher/whatnot approaches forms (I'm sorry, but it really does). Principles, fundamental movement, practise of whole body coordination .. it's all there in the good forms.

The problem -- as I see it -- is that people don't get forms. They practise them as something they have to do, with the spirit of "I started this, so I'm going to get to the end", just like completing a set of reps. Much more can be gained from doing forms with a very observant, open mind. Not necessarily thinking hard about a single application of it, but truly exploring the form -- feeling it. It's something that took some time to happen to me, but I think the fundamental point is that before you can start practising kung fu, you have to learn how to practise kung fu. That's part of the basics.

[Royal Dragon]

For mew, in my system, each level has a form. Inteach bare bones basics first (when i was teaching that is), then as soon as possible I taught the first from. Once the student could preform the form's sequence, i broke it down and extracted drills and self defence from it.



I have had people tell me there are supplementary things not found in the forms, but when I am shown this stuff it, so far, has ALWAYS been movements found in the form that has either just been isolated into a drill, or just had resistance somehow added to it.

Each level has a form. Each form is the curriculem for that level. If you want to teach it in it's entirety first, or break it up and teach it one segment at a time and assemble it only at the end of that level, it does not matter. Either way works just as good.

[Oso]

full contact sparring

[David Jamieson]

forms have purpose. forms also contain techniques. and yes, whoever teaches you the form shoul teach you what the techniques are for, even in a general way.

if you don't think form is the style then you are wrong. :D
the forms contain the techniques and information of a style.

people who think form is just for show, are also wrong, except in the case of those forms that are devoid of correct structure (which is teh case with poorly understood forms in any style).

don't knock em, they do the work they were designed to do.
I think a lot of people don't like forms because they are too lazy to learn and remember and disect them. But then, there are a lot of lazy martial artists lol.

cheer

[Brad]

I'd rather see kata delayed until later ranks. I wonder why no one has ever thought of that before?
We used to do this under my old teacher. He ended up having to work three extra jobs to make ends meet because we had such a hard time keeping students :D

[Starchaser107]

"I'd rather see kata delayed until later ranks. I wonder why no one has ever thought of that before?"


I believe that this is done in some kung fu schools. I have heard about hung gar teachers who operate in this fashion.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
I've always thought that katas were more the art side of the coin. a well executed kata can be a great thing to watch in the same way that a painting can be a visual feast (except that painting doesnt usually have a combat side to it)

Doesn't that seem odd to you though? That the 'art' of it and the execution of it should be different sides of the coin. Doesn't it seem like the art of it should be the fusion of practice and execution? And not that one aspect should be preserved for aesthetics' sake while another addresses the actuality of free fighting.

I'm not even going to argue whether forms are a good practice or no. I personally don't train them anymore. But that was my decision.

What I wonder about is that rationale. That there's an art and an application. And that the two aren't necessarily connected. It'd be like a ballet company spending years perfecting their choreography and then just going on stage and winging it. The practice may well have been a beauty to behold. But if it doesn't contribute to the actual performance, how much sense does the system make?

Of course, in that analogy, it's clear that the choreography should have contributed to the performance. Where lots of people hold that forms should not and could not contribute to a fighting 'performance.' I'd certainly be willing to hear arguments that forms do directly feed into fighting. I just haven't seen very compelling arguments in the past.

Bottom line: To me, watching someone apply what they've learned in the actual live event. That's the art side of the coin. And like all art, it ain't always pretty.


Stuart B.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by apoweyn

Bottom line: To me, watching someone apply what they've learned in the actual live event. That's the art side of the coin. And like all art, it ain't always pretty.


Agreed. Some of the best fighters I have encountered are not necessarily the best forms demonstrators (i.e. the ones with the best flow, speed, power, and beauty in movement) but they have been the ones that could take a move from a form and tell you how they use it in an actual live event. They may look sloppy performeing the form on their own, but you feel the art when they apply it.

[Ray Pina]

We don't do any forms.

We will however, walk training a principle ... back and forth ... drive off the back leg while keeping the heal down, weight going forward, trying to increase the hang time. Then coordinate a strike with the stepping so that the blow is delievered before you land (this way the weight goes into the blow and not the step).

We tent to do drills where we isolate an idea and just train it, train it, and train it. One person collapses another, and we use an idea, say Drill Fist, to pick it up, or Peach Palm to absorb it. There are Drill First forms and Peach Palm forms, but we want the idea and how to use it.

One is copying the formula off the blackboard blindly. The other is learning what goes into the formula so you can lose your notes and just recreate it as needed.

This is a big debate, I know. But I have no time nor desire for forms. Mayeb later, when I have learned all that I want to learn, then maybe my master can show me how to link up all the ideas so I can impress people at parties. But for now, I want to learn how to knock people down as quickly as possibl.e

Boxers don't have form. Wrestlers don't have form. They box and wrestle. What do martial artists do? The answer to that questions sums up your training ... and your skill set.

[apoweyn]

Nice post Efist.

[scotty1]

"One is copying the formula off the blackboard blindly."

I expect some people do their forms like that, but intelligent analysis and drilling of movements/techniques does not justify that label. I resent the implication that because I do a form, I'm not thinking about what I'm doing. Sorry if you didn't mean it like that, but that's how it reads.

"The other is learning what goes into the formula so you can lose your notes and just recreate it as needed."

your statement is over simple. it may be the case for some people, but not for others. it implies that everyone who does a form just performs the movements without thinking about them.

forms and applications/drills are not mutually exclusive, they go hand in hand. For our style.

we do what you do in your class, but we do forms too. because the form serves purposes that the applications don't. And boxers shadowbox, which seems to me to serve the same purpose as a form in some ways.

Don't like to do forms? Don't do them. But don't start saying that I'm wasting my time by doing them.

We have forms. We also have applications. The reason we have both is because one trains, or emphasises, things that the other does not. one of the points of the form is to increase your ability to perform the application well.

It's as simple as that. Just another piece of the pie.

[Ray Pina]

Let me start of by saying I have completed the forms to the Isshin-Ryu system (empty hand and weapons), Hung Gar (empty hand, including Iron Wire, and Doa) and Wing Chun. My favorite form is Chik Pu from the Bak Mei system. I have learned and forgotten more forms than many here will ever learn.

With that said: Doing a form actually builds some bad habits. Do you think it's going to go down that way in real life? Every single time? This technique into that technique? Of course not.

Also, I am against training "techniques" as implied by forms ... duck here and grab that arm and twist 90-degrees to the right and kick the knee. It lends to the idea that you can pluck a full powered, full speed punch out of the air and twist it ala Aikido master and willing diving student. Try it! Put on boxing gloves and have a friend throw a simple 1-2 combination. See what happens.

I -- speaking for myself -- prerfer to train shielding. How to smother an attack. When I find the persons attack has landed on top, and I feel their weight trying to pin me, HOW TO PICK IT UP? Or HOW TO COLLAPSE THEM? Or, HOW TO ABSORB? Then, HOW TO HIT WHILE SHIELDING, so on and so forth.

They are all seperate abilities which feed off each other. Can you learn them via form? Maybe? Can you learn them via form without testing each PRINCIPLE live, against a resisting foe? Impossible!

So now ask yourself, which part of that equation is important? Step by step form of the principle in the air, or training the principle with a slightly resisting cooperative training partner and pikcing up the pace?

How much time do you have? I only have time to focus completely on one. I made my choice and am quite pleased with the results.

Maybe you are having succeses with your method. Just don't convince yourself that if it looks like a monk and sounds like a monk it fights like a monk .... or maybe it does ... and that might not be worth too much on the street.

Each level of training has its importance. If you train for life, I'm sure you'll laugh at some stuff you're doing now 5 years from now. I know I do all the time.

[norther practitioner]

With that said: Doing a form actually builds some bad habits. Do you think it's going to go down that way in real life? Every single time? This technique into that technique? Of course not.

I have to agree, but I feel that can be combatted once it is realized. I do a form, then take a section and work a few variations on this....


But I also love doing forms, as I've said before, there a good workout, and I have a lot of fun doing them... they definitely have there drawbacks, but I do other things also to try to not get bad habits and work things with another. Plus, chicks dig forms...lol

I think those that try to say do basics, then forms, lose the meaning of there beginning forms in some ways.:)

[Starchaser107]

From my training perspective, It has helped to have beginner , intermediate , and advanced forms.
Usually people who tend to be good at forms often have an inclination to fight from what I've seen at my school.
but generally speaking, the techniques in forms are often times very straightforward, sometimes i find it hard to come to terms with people overlooking them as unnecessary. I guess it depends on how it is taught.

by the way certain forms/kata/whatever are not fighting techs but conditioning exercises(internal/external) moreso. while some are fighting oriented.

I personally do not find forms to be obsolete.

[Ray Pina]

"Usually people who tend to be good at forms often have an inclination to fight"

My experience has been the opposite. At tournaments, there always a group walking around very proud, doing jumping spin kicks in the wings and swinging swords. Then, they all quietly go and change, gather their stuff and sneak out as the begin calling fighters to report to individual rings. Happens every single time. Though there are those that do both.

Forms are fun! Forms do have things that they can teach. It's the intent behind them. But five months of forms do not equal one day of training a principle with a partner.

Yes, some forms build internal but I'd be very careful with that. I've heard it my entire life. Not until training with my present teacher have I actually felt this thing I've been told about, and again, it has more to do with isloating a single posture, or one movement and holding it or doing it over and over.

These debates are silly. Because in the end, everyone will do what they want to do.

As for shadow boxing. I do it. But it's a way of oiling the machine, insuring all the pistons are firing as one ... as they should. It's not a reinactment of holding back the Qing at the burning gates of shaolin.

Some folks need this sort of thing to be inspired about their training. The Monk Spades and Tiger Forks and the jackets and the special, secret coded bow into and out of the forms. I know. I studied Hung Gar.

Now I'm inspired by the simple fact that I can walk past Times Square at 3:30 a.m. with a little groove on and feel like the badest guy on the block ... .... knowing all the while there's always someone out there tougher, perhaps armed, that I need to be training for. That's it. Pure and simple. Is your training turning you into a beater of fighters? My training took that turn about 5 years ago. I can say, before that, I was fooling myself. I still have a long way to go.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by rogue
You won't learn secret techniques, grappling or anti-grappling by doing kata or forms, you need a knowlegable instructor to teach you hands on how to setup, execute and target any technique.
Says you. But here is a news flash, there are people out there pulling techniques from forms without having a teacher hold their hand the whole way. If I had my choice of only learning the drills versus only learning the forms, I would pick forms. The drills are in the forms, you just have to pull them out.

And I disagree, I prefer that short forms are taught to beginners. It gives them the best type of exercise and teaches their body how to move.

[Ray Pina]

"If I had my choice of only learning the drills versus only learning the forms, I would pick forms. The drills are in the forms"

This makes no sense!

Your saying you'd take the forms because you can pull the drills out, which shows you find they hold merit. Minus the drills, what value do you find in the form that you couldn't get from say, stretching, bike riding or jogging?

The reason I ask, because it seems like you view forms like an encyclopedia. I used to. "O, look here. Grasp the arm with both hands and pull while kicking out there knee .... And over here, collapse the guy and tiger claw the eyes ... real hung gar .... palm on the chin pushing back, fingers digging into the eyes socket, grabbing the back-inside of the skull and pulling the whole thing down ... see ... what a charm."

I'm telling you all you are doing is cataloguing move A, B, C, D, E, F, G. That is fine. But the, "Can you do it?"

When I was a kid and dressed like a cowboy I would throw something up in the air and quickly draw my cap gun from my side and fire out a few burts ... twirl the thing around a few times, and right back in the holster ... PERFECT FORM! Real fu(king John Wayne!!! In my mind I obliverated that thing.

I'm now thinking of taking up shooting for real. I'm thinking I have to go to the gun range and start off with just aiming and pulling the trigger, probbaly have to take a gun safety course first.

Or do you think I should just go by a cap gun and keep shooting and twirling it in the air ... it looks like it will work. THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN THE MOVIES!!!!!

Does John Wayne = Shaolin Monk in this instance?

[Starchaser107]

theres far too little competition on the tournament scene in jamaica for schools to produce athletes who's sole purpose is to compete in forms/ kata.
Mind you most of the fighting at those crappy tournaments are point fighting, but ppl seem to be of the impression that if you don't fight your style is worthless.
as the only kung fu school there we may at times have issues with people generalizing by saying kung fu is just pretty. therefore when we fight we fight.
last year a local karate school tried to introduce iska kickboxing tournaments to the island, (which imho is a step down from the san shou training we do, but non the less fighting), the ratio of fighters per school was laughable. There were so many fighters from my school some of us didnt get a chance to fight.
zero participation from any tae kwon do institution in the island, and literally one or two representatives from other karate schools.
(I assume that they did not wish to stray from the comfort zone of point fighting)


all of our students who participated were proficient in forms.
this response is definately case sensitive, I suppose by your post that in your country martial artists tend to specialize in either or.
we do not necessarily have that option, but we are imho competent in both. and I do believe that the forms training helped in some ways...but by no means was the only thing that was needed to train fighters... however it surely was not obsolete.

[Ray Pina]

Here, here. Sounds like you train at a very well rounded school! There's no arguing with that.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rogue
I'd rather see kata delayed until later ranks. I wonder why no one has ever thought of that before?:D

In judo, kata aren't required till 2nd degree brown...

[MasterKiller]

I didn't know Judo had forms. I thought you just tossed each other around all the time.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

I think in Taiji in the traditional method you were not taught forms as such.

If I remember it went similar to this:
1.) Basics drills.
2.) Learn a movement/posture train it & perfect it. Could take upto 2~3 months.
(hold the Posture later add movement, etc.)
3.) When the previous movement/posture had been learned a new one was taught and perfected.
4.) Take the new movement/posture and link it with the previous one/s to form a miniature form.
5.) Wash, rinse and repeat as needed

This way the form was build slowly, but once the last movement/posture was learned the forms was complete and correct. I believe it is said that a 108 Movement form could take 5~6 yrs to be learned.

I think the teaching mthod changed due to the different circumstances of students than and now.

I have heard that at the moment there is a short form being formulated in my style to teach to new students, before doing the longer form on which I started.

[Daredevil]

I don't understand how some people diffrentiate between taking a move (doing it without a partnet, anyway) and training it from forms. They're the same thing. They're both movement. One is shorter, other is longer.

In fact, personally I like short forms much better, but that's just me. They're more to the point and the intent is easier to grasp. I mean forms like the Five Elements of Xingyiquan or the eight single moving exercises of Bajiquan.

When you train forms, you don't do some miraculous generic activity of "training forms" that magically transforms you. I think this is the common perception. You need to train forms with intent and really using your mind to learn something there.

You can do a form focusing on rooting, in different postures, in transition and movement. You develop the basics of rooting which you then take to partner drills. You can do a form focusing on flow. You can train a form focusing on power. You can refine technique (not in the sense of 'this is how it's going to look when I apply it', but in the sense of developing the internal coordinations and realizing the core principles). All these ways teach you different skills. You're going to be training different things at different times and in different levels.

Make the form come alive. If you don't, it's a dead thing and it isn't going to help you. If you do, it's just like drilling technique, shadowboxing and what not. That's my advice.

Of course, forms are just one thing. They're just a piece of the puzzle.

[Ray Pina]

"I don't understand how some people diffrentiate between taking a move (doing it without a partnet, anyway) and training it from forms. They're the same thing. "

One thing is to pick up a baseball bat and swing it blindly. It is yet another thing to stand in the batter's box and have someone beam an 80 mph fastball over the plate, or a curveball, or a slider, or a change up for that matter. each one is different. And you have to face it personally to understand. Just saying it will be slower and breaking outside doesn't quite measure up.

Saying you block like this and than do this is not like doing it to someone who doesn't want it done.

I'm not saying you start there. I'm saying you start with T-ball. But there being a ball present is very important.

I can do an amazingly number of things very well in my mind. Flying and banging Pamela Anderson are two of them that come to mind.

[Daredevil]

Naturally you will have to train these things with an actual partner. However, if you've never swung a baseball bat, it's helpful to first swing it a few times in the air to get the mechanics right -- or to at least hold it from the right end -- before proceeding to actually hitting the ball.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, one important use of forms, is not for the student, but the teacher. When I taught a form to a student, I watched his performance, and took note of which techniques in the form he did well, and which he did poorly. The ones he did well, I imediately showed the applications to with partner training. The ones he was poor at, I devised drills out of to be done solo. Once good at those drills, I paired the student up with a partner. I did this untill all students were proficient with all the techniques in the air, against eachother in a prearranged sequence, and once I got them that far, it was free sparring time.

A typical class was about 20 minutes warmups, followed by about as much as 20 minutes conditioning (Common chest/shoulder. back/bi's, abs etc). Then I'd go about 40 minutes of forms work, with at least 20 being drilling the form in it's entirety, and 20 minutes doing isolated drills. Each student was prescribed a different drill based on what I saw their need to be from watching thier forms performance. Then came about 40 minutes of two man drills. Each two students would do two tecinques generally chosen form watching their best techniques as performed during the initial forms practice. Sometimes I did 40 minutes of strit forms work for the cardio, and sometimes it was 40 minutes of isolated drills prescribed from the previous days preformance. I often took 5-10 minutes between forms and two man work to do flexibility training to take advantage of the fact that the body is really hot and responds best to stretching at this time.

Either way, each student gets custom training designed specifically for thier needs to develop their weaknesses, AND capatolise on thier strengths. I feel this is the right way to use the forms in training. It's an excellnt method, and works very well.

[rogue]

For the record I still practice kata, but right now I'm doing kata that more reflect what I'm learning, rather than learning from the kata. After awhile I figure the opposite will be true, but right now I'm working basics that I never knew existed.

MegaPoint, I agree with your "Kihon and kata and Kihon Kata" post. I think that most of what passes as karate in America suffers from two things. The first is horrible kihon. My experience is that most karate schools are more interested in killing time durings "basics" than teaching basics that develope power, speed, balance and proper movement. The second thing is the seperation of kata from fighting, with kata looked at as art rather than a form of training for combat. I think apowyn summed it up.

Doesn't that seem odd to you though? That the 'art' of it and the execution of it should be different sides of the coin. Doesn't it seem like the art of it should be the fusion of practice and execution? And not that one aspect should be preserved for aesthetics' sake while another addresses the actuality of free fighting.


But here is a news flash, there are people out there pulling techniques from forms without having a teacher hold their hand the whole way. And from the results I've seen they'd might as well pull rabbits out of hats, because the techniques will need a big dose of magic to work. For some reason what gets "pulled" tends to be either overly complicated or a martial fantasy. Maybe you Shoalin Do guys are just better at analysis of forms than what I've seen.:)

[Royal Dragon]

And from the results I've seen they'd might as well pull rabbits out of hats, because the techniques will need a big dose of magic to work

Reply]
Thats due mostly to a lack of fundementals, and proper understanding of basic figthing principals. These are most important. Without them, you don't have the essential "KEY" to properly decifer the form.

[rogue]

Exactly, and that's what, IMO, makes so much of what people find in kata bullsheet. Instead of being short nasty takeouts they are complicated flowery fantasies. How can someone say they have grappling in their kata but can't perform a lock or takedown during a drill much less in sparring?

[Skummer]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I didn't know Judo had forms. I thought you just tossed each other around all the time.

Yah, judo kata are all two man affairs though. It's generally just the formal practice of the techniques. Also the self-defense techniques are taught in kata form.

While I refuse to learn judo kata due to my hatred of kata in general, I think they're infinitely more valuable for understanding technique than the solo forms of most kung fu styles.

[SifuAbel]

The words kata and kung fu don't belong together. There is a big difference between karate kata and TCMA forms and still more different are the "flowery" forms of Wushu, they cannot be clumped together.

I'm sorry if this is not PC, but I never did like the way karate kata is done in america. Especially now that they've become part of team Paul Mitchel(sarcasm) with all the WuShuesque flipping and the excessive posing and yelling. If this is what you are critiquing then all powers to you. If not, and you are just blindly clupming everything together then I say you got lots to learn.

Most of the time the term "flowery" is used to describe a move that the person in question has no understanding of. I don't do flowery kung fu forms, I can find use for all of it. There isn't anything in my form work that I feel is done just for show. If you feel that yours does do things just for show, then question what you do.

[Vash]

Whaddyamean? I thought those guys were the stuff?

I've never seen a real karate kata look like anything ever done on the Paul Mitchel thingamabobber. Did see a guy at a tournament one time, been doing karate 3weeks. first night, they start him doing a kama kata . . . without the kama. Give him the kama the night before the tournament, say "have fun". His words.

McDojo, anybody?

Real karate kata look mean, like small bear ;)

[rogue]

Especially now that they've become part of team Paul Mitchel(sarcasm) with all the WuShuesque flipping and the excessive posing and yelling. Yes very true, but unlike kickboxers, they use "refined and efficient" power. God I hate the words Paul Mitchell.


Most of the time the term "flowery" is used to describe a move that the person in question has no understanding of. In this case SA I was using it to refer to needless movement, one thing that shouldn't be in either karate, kung fu or kickboxing. And I'll agree, I've grown to dislike the way most karate kata is done in America. Even when I see well done kata it usually doesn't reflect on the persons self defense or fighting techniques. It's been dumbed down to performance art.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by themeecer

Says you. But here is a news flash, there are people out there pulling techniques from forms without having a teacher hold their hand the whole way.

no need to reinvent the wheel. you don't pull techniques out anyway - you pull principles out. Once you have done that, the techniques available are limitless.

And I disagree, I prefer that short forms are taught to beginners. It gives them the best type of exercise and teaches their body how to move.

why is it to an advanced practitioners advantage to practice long forms as opposed to short ones?

['MegaPoint]

In response to Sifu Abel- I agree with you. Of course that is a generalization and there are some orthodox karate styles out there that train self preservation oriented forms and drills. The majority of all MAs forms have lost their original intent long ago. This includes Chuan Shu (Kung Fu), TKD and other derivatives and spin-offs.

I feel that the kata I have learned in my orthodox studies of karate have taught me plenty. Of course there is no way I can verify this on a discussion forum, but I do like the forms I've learned and the lessons gleaned from them.

Do I feel they are prerequisite for becoming a good fighter? No. Do feel they are necessary to be a truly knowledgable and proficient martial artist (in most cases )? Yes and I do feel there is a difference between the two.

['MegaPoint]

Oops! Sorry for the double post...

[fragbot]

Why do some systems have so f'ing many forms?

I once read an interview of a CLF guy who proudly proclaimed his system had over 100 forms. Now, maybe I'm overly cynical, but I can't imagine his students were any good at any of them.

My take: 3-4 forms (including weapons) is more than adequate. As to why, probably a combination of a willingness to add to a system and a reluctance to streamline a system.

While forms train certain attributes necessary for fighting, are they an effective and efficient way of training these attributes? Likewise, are there more effective and efficient ways to train these attributes?

My take: no and yes.

do people see differences in value between solo empty-hand and weapons forms?

My take: I think solo weapons forms make alot more sense than solo empty-hand forms.

why do you think empty-hand forms have become (IMO, if you think I'm wrong -- explain why) a primary method of teaching CMA? Furthermore, has this always been the case?

My take: I'll keep my thoughts on the first question quiet for the moment and I don't have an answer for the second question.