horse stance differences

[Falcor]

Can anyone explain to me the differences in teh way northern styles do horse stance and southern styles do horse stance? What I am referring to is that in the southern systems, i.e. Hung Gar, CLF - the horse stance is done such that the knee angles out and open, but I've seen examples of horse stance for northern systems, i.e. Yang Jwing Ming's Longfist, and Adam Hsu's Baji - where the horse stance is done so that the knee comes more forward and in. I guess they both work for the respective systems, but what the reasoning for the differences?

[Lowlynobody]

In YKM, some bak mei and southern mantis the legs/knees are drawn inwards. It is part of the way to grip the ground.

[count]

Well, how are your knees when you are actually riding a horse? As opposed to say standing on a boat trying to practice kung fu? Which geometric shape is actually stronger, a pyramid or a square? In our style, the horse is stuctured for opening and closing the ming men. Triangular. Others generate power other ways so I can't comment on a square horse except that when I try it, I feel less mobile and it forces the ming men closed.

[Fu-Pow]

The knee should be almost directly over the ankle on a weight bearing leg. In a horse stance both legs are (almost) equally weight bearing so that means both knees should be almost directly over the foot.

This is true for CLF and Chen Taiji and Hung Gar also, at least the places I studied these.

Some Southern Stylists emphasize that the feet should point forward. I think this is true to some extent. However, I think it is partially dependent on the width and flexibility of a persons hips.

If you have wide hips then your toes will point out a little ****her. If you have narrow hips then your feet will point more forward. What you want to avoid is going up on the side of the foot which puts strain on your ankle and knee joint.

Keep your toes forward and your knees open as much as you can without lifting the side of your foot. That is the sign of a good horse stance.

In Taiji the front foot of the horse stance points out a little bit more where as the back foot is more "closed" off.

[Water Dragon]

You should check out the December issue of Inside Kung Fu. MonkeySlap Too has an article on training the horse stance. I understand that Count got to be the pain monkey. :D

Pick it up. I'll betcha ya learn something.

[count]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
You should check out the December issue of Inside Kung Fu. MonkeySlap Too has an article on training the horse stance. I understand that Count got to be the pain monkey. :D

Pick it up. I'll betcha ya learn something.
Pain Monkey? :D :D :p That's a good one, I like it. Maybe I'll change my screen name. LOL!!

That's supposed to be the January issue, but I guess it comes out in December. Maybe we shouldn't be plugin' the competitors product.:eek: :eek: :p

[Royal Dragon]

I have given this subject considerable thought. I think the horse stance is a tool, and how you hold it should be related to what you are doing.

If you want some general rules, I'd start with the feet. The weight should be balanced evenly on the 9 points, in other words, evenly across the bottom of the foot. From there, the tail bone should be tucked, spine striaight. If you maintian the structure and rooting as I described above, the knees will automatically fall into the correct position, in & out, & front to back.

A wide horse, narrow, high, low, are totally irrelevant except to match the intended work to be done.

Many people are bent on keeping the knees behind the toes, claiming that letting them too forward will injur them. I have actually seen those who completely sacrafice thier body structure to the point where they must lean way forward, and arch the lower back to have any sort of balance because of this. (same person denied the arch when I ponted it out to him, despite it being plain as day)

Keeping the knees behind the toes for injury prevention is a fallacy IMOP. Some of the best practioners I have ever seen hold the horse as I described, with the knees just a tad forward over the front of the toe. None has knee injuries, even after decades of practice, so that one is a fallacy. I have a beautifull shot of Addam Hsu in horse stance pg 34, 95, 106 & 111 of the "Sword Polisher's record". In each photo, his knees are forward over the front of his toes, just enough to allow his tailbone to be properly tucked, and not a smidg'n more.(Except photo on pg 111 where he arches his back). Hes been doing his horse this way all his life, with no problems, least of all knees.

[Starchaser107]

out

[Starchaser107]

in

[count]

Baji horse (http://chikungintl.com/images/baji.jpg)

[Water Dragon]

Count is correct. I wanna know who here can hold that horse for an hour.

[Judge Pen]

Can anyone here say they can honestly hold a proper horse stance for an hour? I say proper refering to the way Fu-Pow described it as it is similar to the way my sifu teaches.

Feet should be five-hands apart. They should point as straight ahead as your hips will allow. Knees should be over your ankles. Your but should be on the same plae as your hips so much so that you can place a staff on your legs and it will not roll. The but, back, and head should also be aligned.

That is the ideal, but I see very few who actually do their stances this way.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i actually misunderstood my sifu and was trying to keep my knees behind my toes for about 3 weeks when i first started there. he said something like i should be able to see my toes. so that's what i tried to do.

when he saw me struggeling he corrected me (or himself but i didn't say that). and said he meant that if you lean forward slightly you should see your toes right beneeth your knees ... referring to the alignment of your knees and ankles no matter how far your knees are forward.

[SaMantis]

Judge Pen,

Ditto for my system. In Orlando one of our classes had us attempting the "tabletop" stance (resting a stick across our knees) for 1 full minute each week, very few could do it.

There was 1 guy, at an inter-school tournament, who won the horse-stance contest -- 15 minutes straight without wavering. Everyone else fell out at around 5 minutes. I think he was from the Tennessee school ... :)

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Can anyone here say they can honestly hold a proper horse stance for an hour? I say proper refering to the way Fu-Pow described it as it is similar to the way my sifu teaches.

Feet should be five-hands apart. They should point as straight ahead as your hips will allow. Knees should be over your ankles. Your but should be on the same plae as your hips so much so that you can place a staff on your legs and it will not roll. The but, back, and head should also be aligned.

That is the ideal, but I see very few who actually do their stances this way.

Wow JP we agree on something!!!

We don't do our stances quite that low however. Its really not good for your knees to let your hips go below your knees (which would be necessary to put a staff on your legs). BTW, we do this however when we drop to a Snake stance or far leaning horse stance, but I still don't think its that good for your knees.

Also, structurally you are not that stable. Its better to have your thigh and your calf make slightly larger than a 90 degree angle. You can still go low but just not so low that you become planted like a tree.

As far as the knee going past the toes this is also bad. You can have your knee past the ankle up until the the top part of the foot. But any ****her than that and you risk knee injury.

This is a source of a lot of injury for beginners.

Ciao.

[MasterKiller]

I learned themeecer way. My sifu said, "Go stand in the corner and make your legs stronger," so I went over in the corner and began to experiment. After 4 years, I finally figured out that I could make my thighs strong by doing horse stance. It took me another year to realize that I should tuck my tailbone in, and yet another year to figure out where to put my feet.

After 6 years I showed my Sifu what I was doing and he said, "That's how you should have been doing it all along!" IMO, This is the best teaching method for learning kung fu. My teacher could have easily spoon-fed me the technique the first day, and then, 6 years later, I would have super-strong legs. But then I wouldn't have figured it out by myself.

Once my sifu told me my horse stance was correct, he then patted me on the head and told me to go figure out how to swing a chain without knocking myself unconcious. Maybe when I'm 70 I'll be able to learn another weapon.

[Starchaser107]

I've heard of Hung Gar schools who made students sit in mabu for an hour.

However me being the sceptic that I am, I'd have to see that $#!* for myself. Because what some people consider a mabu, is just totally wack.

If I were to sit in that posture with feet pointed outwards , it's so d@mn relaxing I could stay there all day... okay maybe not the whole day but, I dont feel it doing anything.:(

toes forward knees out thighs parallel to the groundwith a straight back for some reason or the other feels like a better value for your mabu.

[norther practitioner]

Hips tucked but groin still not pushed foward....

Pretty typical for many of the northern systems, but it really depends on what you're doing with it.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by SaMantis
Judge Pen,

Ditto for my system. In Orlando one of our classes had us attempting the "tabletop" stance (resting a stick across our knees) for 1 full minute each week, very few could do it.

There was 1 guy, at an inter-school tournament, who won the horse-stance contest -- 15 minutes straight without wavering. Everyone else fell out at around 5 minutes. I think he was from the Tennessee school ... :)

Well, I would have been one that fell out around 5 minutes (honestly, probably before). :o I find horse stances excruciating when I'm disciplined and do them correctly. My first teacher didn't emphasize them as much as my current teacher. I've tried to take a page from MK's book and do a few minutes of stance training each afternoon in my office to get better.

Fu-Pow: "Wow JP we agree on something!!"

I'm not so bad once you get to know me. :D

[Tak]

Yep, 5 minutes is about the max I can hold a deep horse stance, and that's pushing to the limit for me.

[Bluesman]

I don't do this anymore but after reading this thread I see that I do need to. My first instructor had us stand in the horse and bow at the end of class to strengthen our legs and mentally too.:rolleyes:
I started doing at home and found when I had finally reached the 5 minute mark the pain was quite intense. Later I could push it past the 5 minute mark and found that the pain was always the worst at 5 minutes and did not get any worse but I would start going a little numb near the 10 minute mark. Thought that may not be a good thing but did it anyway and would stop at 15 minutes. It hurt less at that time then at 5.
The pressure on your knees is greater when the knee is past the toes. Mine are semi shot from one legged frog jumps and pistols performed the wrong way.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

im not saying that you should intentionally push the knees past the toes, but i think it's more important to allign your back and let the knees settle where they are comfortable ... it's a thing that varies from person to person. mine may actually be behind my toes, but i really haven't seen myself from the side to know for sure. i just make sure my feet are parallel, tail bone pointed straight to the floor, weight sunk evenly, and that my upper body is light and relaxed (kinda like the lower half is sinking and the upper half is being pulled to the sky). at first i was able to feel if there was too much pressure on the knees and make small adjustments as needed, but i really havent had to do that in a while.