PDA

View Full Version : Cramps



KungFuGuy!
11-06-2003, 10:38 PM
I started running daily a couple months ago, I'd run on a tredmil until I get too tired and then I'd stop, it was a good workout. Now that I have more stamina, I find that I'm getting stomache cramps long before my stamina runs out, so I have to slow down until it fades (and comes back less than a minute later) and my workout suffers. I've talked to a few people about this, and I've gotten two suggestions that work; drinking a litre of water within an hour of the workout, and holding my arms up while running, which does delay the cramp when I feel it coming early on. However, I'm still having problems. It's always in the same spot, just below my ribs under my right abdomen. Any ideas on how to prevent this?

Toby
11-06-2003, 11:00 PM
Old wives tale? I've been told that placing a small stone under the tongue while running will stop cramps. Don't pick something big enough that you could choke on it, just a small stone will do. I don't know the reasoning, or even if it works. Give it a try and let us know the results.

T'ai Ji Monkey
11-06-2003, 11:30 PM
Try a different breathing rythm.
;)

Ford Prefect
11-07-2003, 09:47 AM
Yup. Running cramps have to do with improper breathing.

rubthebuddha
11-07-2003, 09:54 AM
what is considered proper breathing, both in rhythm and where you put your "focus?" my running suffers from this as well.

edit -- my running just suffers, period. :D

Tak
11-07-2003, 10:05 AM
Breathing.

Everyone has their own way of breathing while running, but probably the most general piece of breathing advice to help avoid sideaches is to breathe in a consistent rhythm. If your breathing is jagged and irrhythmic, that sideache will develop in a hurry.

I try to breathe as deeply and slowly as I can without actually expending energy by doing so. On a long run, depending on my pace, I usually take 3 or 4 steps for every breath in or out (so 6-8 steps for a complete in-out cycle).

KungFuGuy!
11-08-2003, 11:56 PM
I was so sure that the rock thing was your idea of having some fun with me :D, but I tried it anyway. It didn't work.
I tried breathing slowly and consistently, but I had a cramp within three minutes. Next time I'll try something in between my usual fairly quick breathing rhythm and the extra slow breathing I did tonight.

Toby
11-09-2003, 06:35 PM
Sorry KFG :(. Like I said, I never tried it. I'm a cynic by nature, so I was interested in your results. I kind of view it like drinking water upside down to get rid of hiccups.

Ford Prefect
11-10-2003, 07:53 AM
Slow breathing won't do it. You need oxygen to fuel your muscles, so cramping will definitely happen if you breath too slowly. Just go buy a running a book. They should detail proper breathing better than anybody on here could.

Tak
11-10-2003, 08:06 AM
Better yet, find an experienced runner to run with you a few times.

KungFuGuy!
11-10-2003, 10:25 PM
I changed my breathing rhythm again, and it seemed to work for me. I did end up cramping, but I ran longer than ever before and I was running out of breath, causing my breathing to be irratic when I got the cramp, so I probably should have stopped anyway.
No prob toby, at least now we know it doesn't work. For science! I probably should have washed the rock first, though. And not swallowed it after the run.

Becca
11-11-2003, 04:57 PM
Cramps, aka side stitch, aka runner's stitch, what ever, is partially caused by a lack of oxygen to the muscles and by an excess of carbon. They are tied together because the blood brings in oxygen and removes the carbon dyoxide. It is something you will mostly have to deal with until your conditioning improves.:(

:) On a brighter note: You can ease it by keeping your arms loose and body "open", raising your arms above your head to aliviate discomfort (as you've already tried) and strangely enough, limit your carbonated beverages. I have know idea why this last one works, but it does. I rarely get runner's stich, but when I do, it usually follows me having had a beer or soda...:mad:

CD Lee
11-11-2003, 06:19 PM
The slow rythmic breathing does work. Just make sure it is deep enough to be slower than 'normal'. That does not mean to breathe slower than what you need to get the right amt of oxygen to your muscles. Stomach cramps may be different than side stiches.

When I was a fanatic runner and read everything on running, it was still unknown at that time medically what caused side stiches. One thing is known about them by world class runners however. You can get them absolutely anytime, even in great shape. A very odd thing.

Always try to breathe in controlled rythmic breathing pattern when running. BTW, what type of running are you doing? Are you running fast, going into oxygen debt quickly? Do you work towards a target heart rate or BPM percentage?

KungFuGuy!
11-11-2003, 10:39 PM
I run fairly quick. Fast enough to make me tired after 20 minutes or so. I don't bother with the heart rate monitor, the programs on the machine are too much of an annoyance to deal with. I just press quick start, set my pace and go until I'm tired or too cramped to continue.

CD Lee
11-12-2003, 10:19 PM
Well then, you have no idea of what you are doing. No insult, but you have no way to measure yourself in ANY quantifiable means. If that is all that you are going to pursue in your training, keep running any way you think ok, and lets hope you get what you have no idea you are after. Speceficity at it's greatest level of ignorance.

If you ever decide you are serious about running as a means to achieve your goals, get Runners World magazine. Otherwise, asking us on this forum is a sincere waste of your time.

Becca
11-13-2003, 05:14 PM
Ouch!:( That type of running does help endurrance. But to be more effective, he'd need to slow down and try to "run though" the cramps and fatighue instead of just stopping.

SanSoo Student
11-14-2003, 09:05 AM
When I run, I always warm up with a jog to get my heart rate up and then go full blast and slowly cool down at the end.
KF Guy you should try to warm up first, that might help set up a better breathing rhythm.

KungFuGuy!
11-16-2003, 11:18 PM
Lee, I didn't mean that I'm too lazy to use the machine programs correctly, it's just that they're more trouble than they're worth. The biggest problem is you have to keep a grip on handle bars all the time for it to monitor your heart rate, and if you take them off for a few seconds the machine shuts down and I have to restart the program.
I'm still ironing out everything, but I think I'm making some progress. The other day I ran twice as long as ever before. I'll try warming up at a slower speed, perhaps running slower for longer periods of time might help also.
Just for others who are in a similar situation as me, here's a list of what has worked thus far.
- Being hydrated before the workout, but not drinking anything immediately before the run.
- Stretching well before the workout (I've done this from the start, but it seems to help)
- Maintaining a controled, constant, moderate breathing rhythm. This has definately helped the most.
- Slowing down and sticking my arms behind my head (to increase circulation) when the cramp is encroaching. However, I find that if there's any trace of a cramp, it's inevitably going to come.
- Not working any muscles before the run.

Tak
11-17-2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by CD Lee
Well then, you have no idea of what you are doing. No insult, but you have no way to measure yourself in ANY quantifiable means. If that is all that you are going to pursue in your training, keep running any way you think ok, and lets hope you get what you have no idea you are after. Speceficity at it's greatest level of ignorance.

If you ever decide you are serious about running as a means to achieve your goals, get Runners World magazine. Otherwise, asking us on this forum is a sincere waste of your time. This is bull****. Since when does training become meaningless without quantifiable measurements? Especially considering that the training in question is for improvement and maintenance of general physical fitness, and not to run a 4-minute mile or a 2-hour marathon.

I've been serious about running for years, and I've never worn a heart rate monitor, run on a treadmill, or read an issue of Runners World magazine.

Bad form.

Toby
11-17-2003, 07:14 PM
I don't necessarily agree with CD Lee's tone, which came across a bit arrogant IMHO, but I do agree with his sentiments. Training of any form is better than nothing, sure, but quantifying your training is the way to improve. I guess it depends on KFG's goals - general fitness or continual improvement.

rubthebuddha
11-17-2003, 10:49 PM
a person can get continual progress without hooking themselves up to a stopwatch or a hrm or whatever. it's not difficult to know if you're feeling faster, and it's not difficult to see (or feel in your joints) if you're losing weight. if you're less winded after a difficult run, then you're probably in better shape. imay not know that i shaved 12 seconds off my average per-mile time, but if my body tells me i worked hard, and i know i pushed myself properly, then i wouldn't care what a stopwatch said.

i don't put much stock in numbers. there are days in which a 7:15-minute-per-mile rate is better than a 7-minute-per-mile rate. since our bodies are always changing, our diets are changing, our moods are changing, etc. -- i'd say a sour-mood 7:15 average is better than a perky 7:00 average, because of what was gained. it may not have been as fast, but sometimes greater gains are to be found in self-discipline or other facets of health than in stopwatch times.

if numbers are your goal, or you set your goals by numerical milestones, that's fine for you. but it is not the only way of measuring progress, nor is it in any manner the best.

Toby
11-17-2003, 11:14 PM
Then we'll have to agree to disagree RTB ;). I've always been a science and maths type person. I like numbers.

Got an example for you. Just last Saturday morning, I did my usual Saturday run. I had a late night on Friday, so I was fatigued. I'm also tired on Saturdays after a week of PTP. Anyway, I did my sprint intervals. I knew I wasn't as fast as usual. Kind of like your sour-mood 7:15 mpm vs perky 7:00. But I felt like I was pushing at least as hard as usual. I got on the computer and downloaded my HRM info. My HR was way lower than usual. I struggled to keep it above the lower limits, which is set at 151 bpm. Usually I struggle to keep it below 160 once I get going. Those numbers reliably tell me the effort I'm putting in.

Tak
11-18-2003, 08:41 AM
The fallacy of this kind of thing is that heart rate isn't the only metric in a whole-body exercise like running. If all you want is a fast heart rate, drink a pot of coffee and sit around masturbating.

rubthebuddha
11-18-2003, 10:11 AM
Tobers -- aye. i guess the problem is that the previously stated perspective was that numbers were the only real gauge of progress. i'm a numbers guy, too -- unless i'm working out. when i work out, it's all about effort and pushing myself, regardless of the progress. and somedays, the amount of effort isn't the concern, but whether or not the effort is even there in the first place. some days, i honestly just don't feel like working out. don't wanna. i'd rather sit and play on my computer or go for a drive or whatever, and an hour out of my day toward fitness and health seems blah. so even making an effort to work out -- not necessarily a fantastic one -- is enough. for me to progress, consistency is key.

my goals are simple -- strength, flexibility, cardiovascular and balance. if i look at my hand and say, "hm, that weight i'm lifting looks bigger than the one i used last week," i'll get the impression that i'm getting stronger. if i can do my front kick a little higher than last month, i'll figure that i'm more flexible. and so on. basically, working out is very raw, and i like it that way. :)

Toby
11-18-2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Tak
If all you want is a fast heart rate, drink a pot of coffee and sit around masturbating. You do that too?! I thought that was my secret workout. :eek: :D

Anyway, I definitely agree that external factors will influence your HR. But I try to keep them fairly constant. I maintain the same crappy diet, I don't drink much. Last Saturday was an example of the external factors (fatigue) affecting my HR.

I'd be interested in what else you consider a metric for running besides HR? Distance per time, or time per distance obviously (I can't stop thinking in quantifiable methods)? I can't see how how I feel is a measure of how I've run (3 hows in one sentence :D). All my running is time-based (and HR, but I read that afterwards, it doesn't affect my running while I'm doing it). I don't take distances into account at all, mainly because I just run around the local oval and there are no track markings there. I wouldn't mind having a track to run on, but I wouldn't go out of my way to visit a properly marked track.

RTB, I didn't want to bring up weights, but that's a classic example of numbers. I totally gauge my progress against what I'm lifting, not how I feel when I'm lifting (although while trying to maintain form, etc).

Anyway, I'm not disagreeing with you guys that numbers aren't everything. Just arguing for the sake of arguing. ;)

rubthebuddha
11-18-2003, 10:29 PM
tobers -- touché. :)

i guess my point is that i don't use numbers themselves. if something is big and i can move it, go me. if it's even bigger and i can still move it, go me. if i can't yet, i'll work toward it. i just don't focus as much on specifics as much, and i don't use extra gear to measure my progress.

KungFuGuy!
11-18-2003, 10:39 PM
Regardless of whether you rely on numbers or not, the results are still the same. Most people just want to see their achievements written down. Hence the belt system being so popular here in North America. I've seen guys carry a little clip board around the gym, jotting down every rep, set, and amount of weight they do. If that helps them improve, then more power to them.
When I entered the gym today, I realized I was ravished. I always make sure I'm fed before working out, but it was too late to go get something to eat. I worked out anyway, and ran longer than ever before, and wasn't even at my limit when I stopped. About 2 minutes in I felt a small pain in my stomache, I thought it was a cramp, but realized it was just hunger and never got any worse. After the personal record-breaking run, I did some ab work and ran a little more. Then when I stopped I saw some black spots and felt like puking, two signs of a great work out :D
I think I'll wait till I'm hungry tomorrow night before I work out and see if the results are similar.

Toby
11-18-2003, 11:14 PM
Well, that's probably your answer. I never eat before working out. I always lift weights before breakfast, do MA before dinner, run either before breakfast or before dinner. I ate once or twice before lifting many years ago when I started lifting, and I almost puked and felt sick for hours afterwards. I do, however, make sure that I'm properly hydrated before and during exercising. Some guys will drink a protein drink. Even that would be too much for me. If I eat within even 3 hours before a workout, that's it for me. I prefer 5 hours or more. That's not counting the trail mix that I snack on during the day every couple of hours.

Re your first paragraph: this is the first time ever that I've written out my lifting program on paper :o. You caught me. I'm in the middle of a 4 week wave cycle program and I literally stumble out of bed, take a ****, drink some juice and go straight out the back shed to lift. I often find it a bit difficult to get my head going early in the morning, so I had to write the program down so I don't forget it. I just stuck a little bit of paper to my power rack with the program on, though. No clipboard for me :( :p

Good luck with the cramps. Thumbs up to empty stomachs.

Toby
11-18-2003, 11:24 PM
Rub,

It's all about the numbers for me. Psychological thing. E.g. a year ago I'd have been scared unracking 100kg on the benchpress. Now I do reps on 110kg. But unracking 110kg scares me, because it takes me to failure. You know that feeling when you unrack a heavy bench and it's a scary heavy feeling? I've got spotter racks, but I don't like failing. Unracking 107.5kg doesn't scare me, because I can finish my sets at that weight. I'm aiming at the moment at hitting 112.5kg, but am I ready for it psychologically? I'll tell you in 3 weeks;). In a year I might be lifting 120kg, and 110kg will be trivial. All in the numbers ... :D

CD Lee
11-19-2003, 11:11 AM
The bad guy shows back up. After reading my post again, I realize I was way out of line attitude wise, and even I thought I sounded arrogant and condescending. I am sorry for the little outburst.

Here was my real point. I didn't really mean it like it sounded. I meant that if you are going to get in shape using running as your means to that end, then it helps a lot to understand what you are trying to achieve with running.

Running can be used in many different ways, just as weights can, to achieve many different things. The duration KungFuGuy was running, seemed that he was after getting in shape for endurance. But his approach was a little counterproductive to long term results in that arena.

Look, a good warm up is needed, even slow jogging. In running you should seek to understand what your body is doing at all times. Understand where your heart rate is always. You should be aiming to hit around 135-150 bpm, when running for endurance depending on your shape, age and weight. Once you have a solid endurance base, you can start using other techniques such as speed intervals, hills(resistance), or sprints. And there many way to do these things. They each have some different training effects. Some increase aerobic efficiency, while others target anaerobic threshold, while some target muscular strength in differing ratios. It is all specificity for running.

So, I still very highly recommend Runners World magazine, and some other fine running books. Those may not be your goals, but you will learn what the training effects are of various approaches to running.

The New York Road Runners Club Complete Book of Running by Lebow. You can get it cheap, and it is comprehensive and very understandable. Good luck on your running.

And BTW, it is not useless or a waste of your time to ask advice on this board. I was simply out of order. My sincere appologies to all the fine people on this forum.