Concern about the power (or lack of) in WC punches

[JThorne]

Having read so much and spoken with a few people, there seems to be an overwhelming concern/belief that the WC punches, with their relatively short range of motion, lack power.

I would like to hear opinions that prove this assumption/view wrong as I am considering taking WC, but I also now have this concern & am thinking quite seriously about taking Muay Thai or KB instead.
:confused:

[Tak]

Why those two choices? If not wing chun, then muay thai? They're pretty different in nature. If you're looking for something that's a lot like muay thai, I don't think wing chun is it.

That having been said, Bruce Lee was one of the more famous practitioners of wing chun (albeit probably not the best exemplar of the style). Would you say that he lacked power?

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi JThorne,

It really depends on the practitioner in question. No one here is going to admit that Wing Chun punches lack power, and there's no way to prove or disprove the notion over the internet. If you are interested in checking out WC, check out a few local schools and ask the instructors (assuming they're socialble) about short power or inch power. Then ask them if they can give you a little demonstration. Then decide for yourself.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[JThorne]

Originally posted by Tak
Why those two choices? If not wing chun, then muay thai? They're pretty different in nature. If you're looking for something that's a lot like muay thai, I don't think wing chun is it.

That having been said, Bruce Lee was one of the more famous practitioners of wing chun (albeit probably not the best exemplar of the style). Would you say that he lacked power?

Tak, why something similar to MT? thats not what I asked, I am looking to decide on & find a 'powerful striking' style. Clearly I am drawn to WC or else i wouldnt have been in this forum for starters.

Re Bruce Lee, well he was great & we all love him but you see, I dont have 15 hours a day for 15 years to train and develop that debatable 1 inch punch/push, & I dont see myself using such a technique in the nasty ugly reality of an attack on the street.
also re Bruce, he was somewhat unique and therefore your example is a bit of an extreme one good sir.

My concerns are mainly due to 2 things,

1) the short range of motion on the punches
2) practicing strikes into thin air rather than into a bag or other pad etc.. this is because i have heard that it is bad for the joints to punch for a long time into thin air. please correct me if i am wrong.

Zhuge Liang, good points, thanks for your reply

[Marky]

Hi JThorne,

Punching "power" is momentum, which is mass X velocity. Ultimately, the ONLY way to maximize punching power is to maximize momentum, and there are many factors that can be manipulated to achieve this...

1. Increase Velocity-- There is no way of punching that will inherently get a fist the same distance in less time than any other punch. Two punches can have different SPEEDS (for example, a straight punch will always hit before a haymaker when they're thrown by the same person from the same origin to the same target with equal intent), but speed has no effect on momentum.

2. Improve Accuracy-- More specifically, "make the velocity vector field of your punch as perpendicular to the target as you can." This is not just a matter of "hitting the target", but going directly into your target and not grazing off the side at too high a degree. Every velocity vector will have two components, that which is perpendicular to the target, and that which is parallel to the target. The parallel component is negated because in truth, momentum equals mass X velocity X the sine of the angle between the target and the velocity vector/attacking line. Imagine trying to stick a needle into a sheet of paper... Would your endeavor be more effective by sticking the needle directly into the flat side of the paper, or trying to stick the needle into the nearly one-dimensional edge?

3. Increase Mass-- More accurately, "increase weighted mass". The mass variable in the momentum function is (the overall mass of the attacker) X (% of mass being applied), which is the weighted mass. This is what the Wing Chun people call "body unity" because when you punch, you try to maximize the percentage of the body that is moving forward. Alright, here's one more variation of the momentum equation (my apologies!)... You can sum several momentums in a single system! For example, when you punch while standing still, your momentum is ACTUALLY V1(velocity of the attacking arm) X M1(the amount of mass that is moving at velocity V1) + V2(mass of the rest of the body) X M2(amount of mass moving at velocity V2)... In this case, V2 X M2 is 0 because your body has a 0 velocity. However, if you can move the rest of your body forward, you can add to the overall momentum of "the system", that system being YOU.

4. Improvement of the Significance of the Mass/Velocity Interaction-- Essentially "good structure". Wing Chun folks keep the shoulder and elbow down because to keep them raised, you have to keep a positive upward velocity in those joints to counteract gravitational force. And every unit of energy spent keeping your shoulder and elbow up COSTS YOU one unit of velocity in your attacking velocity vector field. "Structure" also includes hitting the right target with the right tool. You want to hit the softest target with your hardest weapon, which will ensure that you don't "let up" with your velocity for fear of hurting yourself (conditioning is useful).

5. Improvement of the Dual-Source Momentum Interaction-- The relationship between the momentums of you and your target. Essentially, when you're hitting, you want to MAXIMIZE the difference in momentums... when being hit, you want to MINIMIZE it. The only way you can increase the momentum difference is by ensuring that your attack is as POSITIVE (going into the opponent) as possible, and that the target's velocity is as NEGATIVE (coming toward you) as possible. In Wing Chun this is achieved by attacking while your opponent attacks... So long as you're attacking the right target with the right structure, you'll be able to inflict as much damage through momentum as possible. Minimization of the difference in momentum is making sure that when you're attacked, your velocity and the velocity of the attack are both negative (or positive, depending on your point of view). This is achieved in Wing Chun by turning.


To lay your fears to rest, I explained above that the "power" of a punch is determined by velocity and mass. DISTANCE IS NOT A FACTOR! It doesn't matter if you use a "short range of motion", so long as your velocity WITHIN that range of motion is high (a cultivation of something called "exploding power", which most Wing Chun people practice, I think).

I hope that explains things for you. Sorry it's so immersed in physics, but metaphysics isn't my forte'.

[yuanfen]

JThorne- differentwing chun folks punch differently. Power varies with method used and user. True for boxing too- not all boxers have top quality power.
Punching the air and punching a wall bag are two quite different things.
If your alignmnent is right, and know the importance of the elbow in the punch and punch straight and up to shoulder level and
not snap your elbows upward or downward you should do fine
in punching air. If your elbows give you trouble- stop--- you are doing it wrong.
What art should you take? Dunno- get the best instructor that you can get. Searching for a good instructor is very important..

[yuanfen]

JThorne- differentwing chun folks punch differently. Power varies with method used and user. True for boxing too- not all boxers have top quality power.
Punching the air and punching a wall bag are two quite different things.
If your alignmnent is right, and know the importance of the elbow in the punch and punch straight and up to shoulder level and
not snap your elbows upward or downward you should do fine
in punching air. If your elbows give you trouble- stop--- you are doing it wrong.
What art should you take? Dunno- get the best instructor that you can get. Searching for a good instructor is very important..

[Savi]

In our Wing Chun training, the development of energy (internal and external power) is addressed through: Hei Gung - for cultivating energy - and Fa Jing/Faat Ging - for releasing that energy. Energy cultivation, through certain training methodologies, is guided by what some might refer to as idioms - two examples would be: from my understanding...

1. Loi Lau Hoi Sung (generally means: retain what comes, escort what goes); this references the idea of yin and yang - flowing, in other words.

2. Lut Sau Chi Chung (generally means: energy off, energy on); this references both soft and hard energy.

These two idioms help the practitioner develop their own sense of power appropriate and specific for any given application. In every motion these two idioms bring functionality and combat reflexes to fruitition, so long as you stay true to the methods being taught. These two idioms are both deep in meaning, and at the same time very simple.

Energy alone is influenced by structure. To decide what serves your purposes, it would be best to learn about the structure of a Wing Chun punch, then see how that influences your energy. Wing Chun structure is based on minimal motion. If you find it difficult to get accustomed to this, you must start off with larger motions - for example basic jabs and crosses.

It is much more easy to feel the level of power required to do these things, because the more space you use to more energy you can develop, and the more you will feel at first. Though I must stress this is a basic level of functionality, albeit devastating and real when used properly, Wing Chun movement and structure goes back to teaching us how to accomplish the same thing (instantaneous, explosive power) with less space, proper structure and movement.

Think of it as starting off with big motions, then working your way down to smaller, more compact motions. It is like going from gross motor skills to more sophisticated and refined skills. I think this would probably be the most appropriate path to take to appreciate both sides of the fence.

To offer the progression that I train in the HFY system, we go through these basic steps:

1. Body Mechanics - gross motor skills, basic drilling movements

2. Techincal Knowledge - reinforcing step one with more specific details and refining those motor skills and attributal training

3. Skill Challenges - testing structure, reaction and energy against a live opponent. In this step, everything is tested. You either pass or fail.

[anerlich]

"1) the short range of motion on the punches"

Punches, be they boxing, MT or WC, are not thrown with the arm alone. The entire body from the toes to the knuckles is involved. The mechanics of the three arts differ, but each can result in a powerful punch. "Inch power" is the coordination of all those various parts of the body into a compressed space and time.

"The "inch punch" is a demonstration of that ability. It is incorrect to assume that WC somehow forces you to use only extremely short range strikes. It doesn't.

WC is not the only art that practices this. I know a Russian MA guy who could hit me at least as hard with a "zero-inch punch" as anyone else ever has.

Remember short strikes allow you to telegraph your intentions less, and you can fit in more strikes in a smaller timeframe. But there are ALWAYS tradeoffs, whatever anyone says.

2) practicing strikes into thin air rather than into a bag or other pad etc.. this is because i have heard that it is bad for the joints to punch for a long time into thin air. please correct me if i am wrong."

Practicing FULL POWER strikes with FULL EXTENSION into thin air can damage your joints, though his is generally more common with kicks than punches due to the mass of the leg v. the arm and the lower level of fine muscle control.

Whoever told you that WC people don't hit bags and pads is wrong. We do plenty of bagwork. If you take up MT or boxing, you'll be doing plenty of rounds of shadowboxing anyway so if your assumption was correct you'd be stuffed anyway. Fortunately, your assumption is wrong.

To me, the art is less important than the knowledge and teaching skill of the person teaching it. If there's a good MT school and a crap WC school in your town, I'd send you to the MT school every time. Also, different instructors suit different students. You need to find an instructor that suits you.

BTW, Bruce Lee also did MT and boxing and incorporated them into JKD - though what exactly he has to do with any of this escapes me.

Good luck!

[namron]

Originally posted by JThorne



My concerns are mainly due to 2 things,

1) the short range of motion on the punches
2) practicing strikes into thin air rather than into a bag or other pad etc.. this is because i have heard that it is bad for the joints to punch for a long time into thin air. please correct me if i am wrong.



Try both and compare.

I presently train both wing chun and thai boxing, although wc has been my core training for some years.

I can relate the following from my experience but in the end going out there and taking a few classes in both is worth a million words.

1) As others have said the sort range of the wing chun punches is complimented by your body mass, so if you weigh 80kg and your moving into your opponent with the strike a lot more power can be generated than if you were stationary. The wc punches also are not (IMO) designed for a one hit one kill scenario, however at a short range you can deliver a lot more of them while creating your own fence or guard in front of your body (centreline theory). This reduces the risk of copping a counter strike. WC hand strikes also bridge well into shorter range elbow and knee strikes, which IMO are similar in some ways to MT elbows for short range power.

2) When practicing in the air any strike whether punching or kicking its not a good idea to lock your joint out to full extension. This causes hyperextension of the joint and can lead to injury. IMO you definately need to incorporate bag or focus mits into training to work on power, something MT does very well.

If you choose the MT path (depending on the club) there will be a greater emphasis on conditioning and fitness. The skills may be picked up quickly with a lot of hard work (sparring, skipping, running, bag and focus pad work) and little theory to produce excellent striking skills. In MT you would also be entering a 'gloved' training style, so a lot of the checking in absorbed on the gloves or evaded.

If you choose the wc path then there is a lot of emphasis on theory and forms (again in most clubs/kwoons). WC will also incorporate a large variety of hand blocks and trapping skills, rather then evasion (weaving, etc). In the longer term hopefully this enables you to develop skills trap or tie up you opponents offense and strike from advantage.

Personally its all good, as long as you can find a good instructor.



:D

[Knifefighter]

Here's an easy way to prove to yourself which as more power, boxing/Thai boxing or wing chun. Grab a baseball or softball. Throw it using the mechanincs that one would use when hitting in boxing/Muay Thai. Then throw it using the mechanics taught in WC. It will be obvious which produces more power.

[old jong]

What do you really know about the mechanics taught in Wing Chun above the usual surface views on the subject?...Anyway!...

With good instruction and technique,Wing Chun punches ARE very powerful.No doubts about this. It is the same for any other striking styles.Some practitioners are good ,some are not so good.

[Stevo]

Get somebody who's good at Wing Chun to punch you at short range with full body power. From your hospital bed you'll have plenty of time to reflect on how your concern about the lack of power in a WC punch was alleviated.



Originally posted by JThorne
Having read so much and spoken with a few people, there seems to be an overwhelming concern/belief that the WC punches, with their relatively short range of motion, lack power.

I would like to hear opinions that prove this assumption/view wrong as I am considering taking WC, but I also now have this concern & am thinking quite seriously about taking Muay Thai or KB instead.
:confused:

[yuanfen]

Knifefighter sez:

Here's an easy way to prove to yourself which as more power, boxing/Thai boxing or wing chun. Grab a baseball or softball. Throw it using the mechanincs that one would use when hitting in boxing/Muay Thai. Then throw it using the mechanics taught in WC. It will be obvious which produces more power.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
((Really? Ever watch baseball players fighting?

BTW--there are many kinds of power-context is everything))

[KPM]

Originally posted by JThorne
Having read so much and spoken with a few people, there seems to be an overwhelming concern/belief that the WC punches, with their relatively short range of motion, lack power.

I would like to hear opinions that prove this assumption/view wrong as I am considering taking WC, but I also now have this concern & am thinking quite seriously about taking Muay Thai or KB instead.
:confused:


My 2 cents.......there are different kinds of power that can be expressed in a punch. It can be like "cracking" a short length whip, like "cracking" a longer length whip, or like swinging a baseball bat to name a few. Each does damage in its own way and its use depends on context, as Joy stated. Wing Chun has its own structure and context for how it produces power in a punch. The power is certainly there. For those that don't understand the structure and context, it may appear to be weak compared to other styles. But it is not!

Keith

[kj]

I would only add that in Wing Chun we are not concerned only about degrees of power or force, but we also specialize in precise and appropriately timed application of whatever degrees of force we have. I also agree with those who've noted that skills and abilities in these areas will vary widely. In other words, Stevo is correct.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[JThorne]

i have answered everyones points one by one below but would like to say that the overall impression from all replies combined is a very defensive attitude, in other words "Our/My WC is the best/undefeatable" etc etc, this certainly makes me question things.

Marky very interesting stuff indeed & very scientific, all your points noted & understood, thank you.

yuanfen good points, yes I have heard that the instructor is possibly the single most important aspect. is this because of personal 'chemistry' between student & him?

Savi points about "Energy/ies" noted, a bit too involved imho, believe me, when you are being attacked in the street by capable & nasty people, you will not be contemplating the various types of energies. My interest in MA's is not for the aesthetics or great benefits of cultivating chi et al, I want real self defense.

anerlich it wasnt me who mentioned Brucee 1st (surprise surprise), good points otherwise & thanks. Oh, on the subject of Bruce Lee, I went to 1 WC club only to see several sad wannabe twats in the full Bruce Lee / Jet Li suits, that is a bit OTT if you ask me.

namron excelent points, thank you



EmptyCup, Knifefighter, old jong good points, noted.



Stevo your answer is an adolescent one, no worries but i would guess that you are clearly in your teens, i hope for your sake you don't walk around with a serious "false" sense of security.;)

Keith thanks for replying, I believe you

thanks for all your replies

[yuanfen]

yuanfen good points, yes I have heard that the instructor is possibly the single most important aspect. is this because of personal 'chemistry' between student & him?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Less of "chemistry"-
more of differences in levels of knowledge of the art, willingness to share and the the student's ability to critically understand
and develop.

I state these things as I see them...I am not consciously at least defensive. Who knows what lurks in my unconscious- who knows who knows-the shadow knows! I learn from those with quite different viewpoints in all quite varied subjects of my interest not limited to wing chun.

[duende]

JThorne,

I think you've been given some very good answers here.

The only thing I would like to add, is that I think it's unwise to separate the WC punch from the rest of the system for analysis.

Despite what you've seen on TV or in the movies... Most people can not take an upper-gate strike to the head. You can train and build up all the muscle power you like. But when a WC punch hits you on the temple, it's over. You took the long road with your Muy Tai round punch, the WC'er took the short road, and that big punch of yours never even got a chance to be used.

For instance, in the not so distant past, there's a well-known fight between a Bak Mei master who dropped in on a Pan Nam WC school in China. I've seen the Bak Mei master... he's basically a square... absolutely massive. However, when he visited this Pan Nam school, he got way too ****y and it turned into a fight. The WC'er redirected the Bak Mei master's strike with a Tan, and followed up with a temple strike. And that was it... over end of story.

This is not some Kung Fu fairy tale... We have had visitors to our school who on their trips to China have stopped in on this school, and have seen his blood stain on the floor from where he went down. The School has left it there.

For you to say that what Savi wrote is too much info and aesthetics, and that you want something more for real combat is very naive. What is more real than training your arms to be whips with conditioned striking points on the ends, and having your muscle memory be trained to automatically detect an opening like water finding a leak.

I must say, that I also agree with Joy on the importance of the Sifu. Marky gave some very good technical knowledge, but without a Sifu this knowledge will not transmit into the body.

And btw... I've yet to meet a capable street fighter... That is a myth. You might find someone with a naturally powerful punch, or somene who knows how to use their mass, but that's about it.

[S.Teebas]

True power in WC comes very late, developement wise. You first have to build the SNT structure...cordinateed, and directed at the correct target (relaxation for speed). A linked body accelerated at a single point produces plently of power.

2 solid hits from a person who understand WC power generation well is going to lay u flat.

If you dont have the patience WC requires for power, id advise MT or KB.

[JThorne]

well folks, some very good answers and I am taking note.
Can't say I'm convinced of WC being too good though.
i was just reading another thread in the Reality forum and someone there (a WC practitioner) commented that with trapping, there are only 1 or 2 types of punches that indeed can be trapped, his words were "don't try trapping against a hook, a jab or cross or even a haymaker", i have to ask that if this is the case, why learn traps?, i mean these tend to be the most common of all punches thrown by some untrained thug, no??.

STeebas, at what point did I mention patience or the lack of it?
in fact I regularly & patiently watch a great Sil Lim Tao training video with a few additional energy drills and a few demos of application and enjoy it thoroughly,
it's just the system on the whole looks a little bit weak.

On another note, why do so many 'Non Chinese' folks wear those Bruce Lee / Jet Li suits??

[Savi]

Originally posted by JThorne
it's just the system on the whole looks a little bit weak. JThorne,
I appreciate the feedback, and in relation to your comments to me, I was addressing how to train and develop it. That is quite different that addressing real time combat application and reflex.

As cliche as this may sound, "Don't knock it 'til you try it." Though there are many different versions of Wing Chun out there, there is no single Wing Chun system that represents the rest of them. They are all different, and no system is better than any other. Period. What makes one system better than another is the person using it.

Take care in your search for what suits you best. What's important is that our own happiness is what has to be served.

Regards,
-Savi.

[old jong]

Originally posted by JThorne

it's just the system on the whole looks a little bit weak.



Wing Chun does not have to look tough!....Why should it?...

And...trapping... :rolleyes: Is only to be considered as the very first .00001% of what Wing Chun is about...(IMH O) of course. But these things are essential to learn offensive /defensive lines.

[JThorne]

thanks for all you informative answers guys

I will be taking all of them on board and doing some good thinking.....all in all very good points made

my best wishes

[straight blast]

i was just reading another thread in the Reality forum and someone there (a WC practitioner) commented that with trapping, there are only 1 or 2 types of punches that indeed can be trapped, his words were "don't try trapping against a hook, a jab or cross or even a haymaker",

Total bollocks.

Traps are about taking the opponent's balance as well as pinning his arms. Anything they swing compromises their balance. It is not dependant on type of attack thrown!

[JThorne]

Originally posted by straight blast


Total bollocks.

ah diddums, whassup?, catch a nerve did I :D

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by old jong
What do you really know about the mechanics taught in Wing Chun above the usual surface views on the subject?...Anyway!...
Five years WC training back in the 80's.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Marky
To lay your fears to rest, I explained above that the "power" of a punch is determined by velocity and mass. DISTANCE IS NOT A FACTOR!
Power = mass x acceleration x distance/time

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by yuanfen

((Really? Ever watch baseball players fighting? He was asking about power generation. Throwing an object is a demonstration of this.

[Marky]

"Power = mass x acceleration x distance/time" KnifeFighter

I put quotes around "power" because I wasn't literally talking about power. Your equation is correct, but it has nothing to do with the damage done by a punch. When most people talk about the "power of a punch", they're talking about the damage dealt (momentum) of a punch, not the rate of change in work of a punch as a function of time as you've written above.

On that note, the power function has nothing do do with distance either! Power is a function of the RATE OF CHANGE in distance over time, not the distance itself. In other words, power is based partially on velocity... much like momentum, as was discussed earlier.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Knifefighter

Five years WC training back in the 80's.

Did you have a problem with punching power after all that times?....

[Hermit]

they're talking about the damage dealt (momentum) of a punch

I would say theres much more than momentum involved, when we are talking about damage of a punch. Size of "hit-area" for example (think of 20kg spear and 20kg bowling ball).

And "grounding power" with proper aligments of course... to cancel that nasty opposite force of our punch.

Just some thoughts...

[KingMonkey]

In a comparison of pure power I dont think a WC punch can equal a boxing/MT punch.
Can it still be powerful enough to do the job ? Yes.
Thinking purely in terms of power though is a little one dimensional. It's an important factor in a weapon definitely but not the only one. Also important is rate of fire and speed of delivery. The WC punch more than makes up for slightly less power by excelling in these other areas IMHO.

[Ernie]

power ,
how we get so easily enamored buy the load smack on a bag or pad . but what is power in the context of a combative situation ?
and how much power is really necessary ?
how much power does it take for a eye jab for example and how much do we lose in emotional and physical recovery should we miss?
in a combative situation power is to be able to inflict damage on a moving aggressive opponent while you yourself are in motion .
to do so in a way that is not over committed , that over commitment can be from the body mechanics required to generate such a huge strike , or from a certain posture you must have to pull of said strike , or even and more often then not the emotional build up to generate '' power ''

think of power as something with surgical precession , just enough to stall ,destabilize , freeze or shut down the opponent , yet not so much that you are left wide open trying to recover your position ,balance ,emotional make up .

power is the last thing on the list in the game of timing, position , and control . if you become skilled at setting up your shot , instead of firing wildly , then you will have the time and position to deliver the necessary power .

what good is power with out a delivery system. wing chun along with other arts develops that delivery system , so don't get caught up on the ''whack'' of the punch , look for the consistency of the shots .

p.s.
I have trained in mt , boxing , savate all have different idea's on power and how to use it , each has gaps in the recovery , I find wing chun has by far less gaps and greater interuptability and adaptability .

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by old jong


Did you have a problem with punching power after all that times?.... I found boxing/Muay Thai to be a much better delivery system for power shots.

[S.Teebas]

I found boxing/Muay Thai to be a much better delivery system for power shots.

In what way do you find it better? ....please be specific.

Thanks,

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
it's much easier to learnthe technique of a jab/cross/hook than it is for perfecting the components that make up the wing chun punch's structure and ging. If you look at the way JKD ppl do it I have yet to see one do it "right" I disagree. It's very hard to learn to throw boxing punches correctly. Most JKD people don't do these right either.



Originally posted by EmptyCup
you say "better delivery system for power shots" what do you mean by that? better to set up power shots as in easier to punch? or more powerful punches? if it's the latter which specific punches are you talking about? I believe all the punches of boxing (with the possible exception of the jab) are more powerful. This is because boxing uses the much the same mechanics of every other athletic activity that generates maximum power in a horizontal, or nearly horizontal, plane. Many defenses in boxing are also designed to set up for more powerful punches.

[duende]

Knifefighter...

What about the fact that that boxers are conditioned or not conditioned because of the gloves??? Boxers breaking fingers when punching something barefisted is almost a cliche'... On the other hand many KF practicioners can punch concrete with all their might, and be fine. This kind of conditioning in itself is very effective.

just some thoughts

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by duende
Boxers breaking fingers when punching something barefisted is almost a cliche'... On the other hand many KF practicioners can punch concrete with all their might, and be fine. Punching concrete is much different than hitting the head of a live, moving opponent. Fingers/hands/wrists are usually broken when the punch lands slightly off-target due to head movement and/or roundness of the skull. Most boxers can hit a flat surface with an ungloved hand as hard or harder than most MA practitioners.

[straight blast]

ah diddums, whassup?, catch a nerve did I

Nah dude...I've just been training with a pommy guy for a couple of months and it's an expression he uses all the time.

I am finding it cropping up at all sorts of inopportune moments i.e. disagreeing with my boss "Total Bollocks! Oops."

[yuanfen]

Agree and disagree with knifefighter. Boxing punches are not easy to learn. Developing a first class jab or a completely straight quick right and making the hooks crisp are not easy.

But ITOH- learning a wing chun punch is not easy either- actually it is more difficult to learn it well compared to a boxing punch.

It takes quite a while to develop the explosive wing chun "short power" or
explosive one inch or zero inch power. Demos dont do it justice- because demos try to show people flying backwards. At close quarters boxers often have to push to get punching room... a good
wc person should not have to.

[duende]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Punching concrete is much different than hitting the head of a live, moving opponent. Fingers/hands/wrists are usually broken when the punch lands slightly off-target due to head movement and/or roundness of the skull. Most boxers can hit a flat surface with an ungloved hand as hard or harder than most MA practitioners.

I'm going to disagree with you on this one only in that I think boxers break there fingers on flat surfaces too. This is because they get used to angling there wrists in such a way with the gloves on, which at the same time causes them to loose structural support of all of their knuckles. Not all boxers mind you, but enough to mention.

Also I think over time they become dependant on the taping of their wrists.

just my observations... I'm no boxer, but I do know a few.

[JThorne]

an interesting debate developing guys :cool:

for those who think I am 'putting down' WC in anyway, you are wrong, I was simply concerned about the very short ROM involved with the particular WC punches that I have seen.

In all honesty looking at the whole system (or more than just the punches) I think that WC is very clever and aesthetically beautiful, i can also relate to the centre line theories, the directness, economy of motion & subsequent efficiencies.

Just concerned about it lacking power, thats all.
Some VERY good points about learning boxing punches as well.

finally, why do so many folks wear those Bruce Lee / Jet Li outfits/suits?? (non Chinese folks that is) :confused:

[CFT]

Originally posted by Marky
"Power = mass x acceleration x distance/time" KnifeFighter

I put quotes around "power" because I wasn't literally talking about power. Your equation is correct, but it has nothing to do with the damage done by a punch. When most people talk about the "power of a punch", they're talking about the damage dealt (momentum) of a punch, not the rate of change in work of a punch as a function of time as you've written above.

On that note, the power function has nothing do do with distance either! Power is a function of the RATE OF CHANGE in distance over time, not the distance itself. In other words, power is based partially on velocity... much like momentum, as was discussed earlier. KnifeFighter had it correct if you express the equation in terms of distance travelled, delta-d, in interval of time, delta-t.

Mass x acceleration is = Force.
Force x distance travelled = Work done.
Work done / Time taken = Power.

It's not easy to use such a simple equation to calculate the force or power of a punch anyway. It would probably only apply to just the fist alone and therefore not consider body structure.

To use such a simple equation would mean working out an effective mass or acceleration to account for body structure/linkage, which would be difficult. Alternatively you would need some kind of "complex" connected model of the human body .... any bio-mechanics people out there?

[Hermit]

Mass x acceleration is = Force.
Force x distance travelled = Work done.
Work done / Time taken = Power.

Hmmm... so if my fist is slowing down (a<0) when it hits the target the power is negative :)
Consider also a bullet fired from a gun. It has negative acceleration after it leaves the barrel. Would my punch hurt more if it would have acceleration of say 10 m/s?

Nope. Acceleration has nothing to do with "power" of a punch. Well, not if we observe the fist or body performing the punch. Then it is better to use momentum (as explained by Marky). Instead we could possibly observe what happens to the object or surface we are punching. How does acceleration of this object change and what distance does it travel and in what time...

Just some thoughts about physics...

[yuanfen]

CFT asks:any bio-mechanics people out
--------------------------------------------
Andrew W who occasionally posts is pretty knowledgeable.

One of the problems with equations in CMA
is that the human body mass is not like a shot put.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
- I don't think a straight/cross has as much power as a vertical wc punch.

- the wc punch is structurally stronger than boxers who throw punches horizontally What leads you to these conclusions?

[yuanfen]

knifefighter- I dont like to debate the merits of wc-prefer discussing the details of wc- but
on punches- again it depends on details.
In some(not all) kinds of horizontal punches involving forearm
muscle twisting the full explosive power is not released and remains with the twisting of the muscles. With sufficient shoulder loading such punches can work and even knocka person out but
are not as penetrating in their damage as a "fajing"motion.

[Marky]

Hi CFT,

Knifefighter's equation is correct, but is it relevant to how much damage you can do with a punch? For example, according to the power equation, you could say that acceleration and distance DO matter... However, they only matter because it is acceleration over a distance that determines the velocity at a certain time. The work equation regarding an attack is based on the distance you can move an opponent of a certain force (mass X downward acceleration due to gravity). But what if he just drops to the ground and doesn't move horizontally at all? Does that mean your punch did no damage, simply because no work was exerted on the target. And since his overall velocity backward is 0 (no change in location), so your punch had no power (mass X acceleration X 0), does that mean the guy who's curled in a ball and crying and squealing on the floor isn't feeling any pain?

But as I conceded above, distance DOES play a secondary role in momentum... If your punch has a high acceleration over a short distance, you can have as high a final velocity as a slowly accerated punch over a longer distance.

The work we're talking about here is an equation of interaction... when we say "work = force X distance", we're talking about the distance a TARGET is travelling when that target has a certain mass and an acceleration due to gravity of 9.81m/s^2. This work is not the distance BETWEEN the attacker and the target. I also don't see how you could relate that distance to the amount of work done, but I could certainly be missing something (as is often the case) and I look forward to input.

Also, you're right that we can't get too specific with actual numbers and every single little factor. I see our discussion as a flow chart, not a schematic. If that's where this is heading, I won't have any ammunition to debate with!

[CFT]

Marky,

You've got some good points and I'd like to answer them, but I've got to go out now. I'll have a think overnight and try and answer them to the best of my ability. It's been ages since my college Physics classes, but it'd be fun trying to apply it to martial arts.

[John Weiland]

Regarding equations of force. I may be able to lift, say 200 pounds, but that doesn't mean I can hit with 200 pounds of force. (Although, you may assume I can.) :p

And another thing. My first punch doesn't necessarily do as much damage as the second and third.

Regards,

[Hermit]

It's been ages since my college Physics classes, but it'd be fun trying to apply it to martial arts.

Maybe we should maka a new thread for this. There's probably people who would like to discus about physics in MA, but just arent looking it in wc-thread...

Can anyone (CFT, Marky, yuanfen) explain "fajing" motion in terms of physics? I have heard a theory that it send a wave-like motion through your body, and causes this "penerating" power... what do you think?

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Originally posted by Knifefighter

Five years WC training back in the 80's.

That's interesting, I had almost the exact opposite experience. I spent 4 years boxing, then 3 after that kickboxing. I generate a substantially greater level of force with the wing chun punches that I use now than I ever did using boxing mechanics.

[russellsherry]

hi guys, as a disabled person i am not so concered about power, to me placement , where you hit and getting that first
punch in is more impotant, i tend to favor the wing chun jab punch a bit though not all the time. to shake the person up then follow with 5 0r six punches in a blitz type attack peace russellsherry

[teazer]

Originally posted by JThorne
for those who think I am 'putting down' WC in anyway, you are wrong, I was simply concerned about the very short ROM involved with the particular WC punches that I have seen.

Consider, however that the opponent will face similar problems.
The difference is that WC practices for short range power more than most other styles. If they withdraw their hand further to get more acceleration time, they end up losing out on speed & positioning.
The key is to encourage a situation where both sides are similarly hampered.