Reverting to Kung Fu

[Water Dragon]

So I had a real tough workout last night. We were working our last drill, and I was totally drained. The drill was a basic jab-cross-hook combo, but the pad holder would circle around with the pad down, and when he held it up, you had to be ready to slaughter it from wherever you are. Since this is the last drill of the night, we are expected to go all out. So I’m about a minute into the last 2 minute drill, and all of a sudden, I realize that I’m back weighting. About another 20 seconds, and I’m in a full blown San Ti using CMA mechanics. I’m throwing the jab back weighted, then shift to the front foot with a slight follow step on the cross, and back to rear foot again for a pretty standard lead hook. (crushing peanuts)

So here’s the question. If I ‘reverted to Kung Fu’ in my kickboxing class, what exactly are all those CMA people we see on video reverting to if they’ve never trained kickboxing?

[rubthebuddha]

well, kung fu is the root of every martial art in the world, even something as complex as boxing is based on the simplest CMA. so when you're tired and sloppy, the complex will fall short and only the basics can be maintained.

i thought you knew this already. :mad:











:D

[Meat Shake]

Exactly. When you have no more energy to use, your technique will start to really show.

[Hermit]

A personal experience. I was once in CMA school where everytime we did "match training" we did kickboxing. Always wondered what the heck were those forms for... hmmm, actually, it was contemporary wushu school, so that might be it... :D

Anyways, my guess is bad teaching or wrong kind of teaching. Or maybe they are just doing chinese kickboxing thats CMA, right? :)

[fa_jing]

Sh!t, I wish I reverted to kickboxing when what I try to do is not working.....that would be nice. What I actually revert to is another story.

[Sho]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
what exactly are all those CMA people we see on video reverting to if they’ve never trained kickboxing?I'd call it failed unintentional reacting caused by improper training that lacks repetition and comprehension of basics. :D

[red5angel]

I'm not sure anyone is "reverting" to kickboxing when they start to get sloppy, just that kickboxing might be the closest visually to what a fighter would do naturally.

[fa_jing]

Red5 blah blah blah, correct blah blah blah

[MasterKiller]

It's not that there is anything inherently wrong with kick-boxing. My point has always been that kicking and punching are only part of the Kung Fu equation. When you put on heavy gloves, you have automatically limited the amount of available techniques which a Kung Fu person trains to use. No Chin Na, no palms, no grabbing, no throwing, etc....

Sure, you should be able to kick and punch effectively enough to compete in a kick-boxing arena, but there is more to kung fu fighting than thowing jabs and round-house kicks.

Besides, how you gonna poke someone in the eye with boxing gloves on? :p

[lkfmdc]

- there is more to kung fu fighting than thowing jabs and round-house kicks.

Why of course, there are also SIDE KICKS....

and knees, and throws, and uppercuts, and head locks :)

[MasterKiller]

Awe, coach, you know what I mean!

Can you really headlock someone under Kick-Boxing rules?

[SifuAbel]

No, reverting to kickboxing is a rather inaccurate term that simply means that the person(s) in question become very sloppy,wasteful looking and throw all strategy to the wind and go wild.

A kickboxer can be said to have good kung fu if he remains clean , precise and accurate.

This term is misused and built upon too much in the wrong way.

The biggest things missing, if anything, in what you call kungfu/kickboxing, is the use of defense and footwork. The weapon used to strike is not important. The rules of the particular game should not effect the skill of the fighter.

WD has reached that place where he finally realized what his body has been trained to do. Apparently it was an enigma before.

[rubthebuddha]

actually, i think WD was just being somewhat of a smarmy troll -- and doing a good job of it. :)

besides, kung fu just means skill through hard work. if WD works hard and gets good, he has kung fu, CMA or not.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SifuAbel

WD has reached that place where he finally realized what his body has been trained to do. Apparently it was an enigma before.

Not really. I've had the basic mechanics locked for about 3-4 years now. But I'm taking Boxing classes now, so I want to learn Boxing body mechanics. If I studied with you Sifu, I'd learn it the way you teach it. Otherwise, I could just hit the heavy bag.

What amused me, was that when I got tired, I abandoned the Boxing mechanics, and went back to my Tai Chi/Xing Yi/Shuai Chiao *******ization of movement.

Considering the whole "degrading to kickboxing" fetish here, I thought it was funny that I would degrade into Kung Fu.

[lkfmdc]

you can do a variety of them in San Da matches.....

Someone said you are coming to NY to challenge me? I have to start sharpening my pointy sticks again I guess? :D

[SifuAbel]

To say you degraded then is inaccurate, you fell back on and relied upon your current muscle memory. Its a strength, not a weakness.

[truewrestler]

I think "reverting to kickboxing" can be translated as "reverting to basic techniques and stances and throwing all the complex crap out the window when you get punched in the face".


Originally posted by SifuAbel
No, reverting to kickboxing is a rather inaccurate term that simply means that the person(s) in question become very sloppy,wasteful looking and throw all strategy to the wind and go wild.

A kickboxer can be said to have good kung fu if he remains clean , precise and accurate.

This term is misused and built upon too much in the wrong way.

The biggest things missing, if anything, in what you call kungfu/kickboxing, is the use of defense and footwork. The weapon used to strike is not important. The rules of the particular game should not effect the skill of the fighter.

WD has reached that place where he finally realized what his body has been trained to do. Apparently it was an enigma before.

[MasterKiller]

Someone said you are coming to NY to challenge me? I have to start sharpening my pointy sticks again I guess? Nah, I was gonna come by and work out. No challenge intended. I plan on being in NY this summer, so I was going to try to visit your school and get a lesson some night, your schedule permitting.

[SifuAbel]

What complex crap?


Basic technique is not the brawling **** people are refering to.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
To say you degraded then is inaccurate, you fell back on and relied upon your current muscle memory. Its a strength, not a weakness.

True, but Relied upon CMA Mechanics in Boxing Class didn't sound as good for a title.

[SifuAbel]

It may not have been as shock worthy, But the reality is that is probably taught you more about what you already know.

[lkfmdc]

no problem

(puts away pointy stick)

:D

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
What complex crap?


Basic technique is not the brawling **** people are refering to. Basic technique = Kickboxing != Kung Fu for those who use the term "reverted to kickboxing" or "degraded to kickboxing" seriously.

[SifuAbel]

You didn't answer my question, What complex crap?


As per the term,

This is exactly my point, people refer to this as degrading to kickboxing when in fact its degraded to a school yard brawl not worthy of the kickboxing monicker.

When i see something like that, it tells me only one thing, These people don't have it yet, Period. If it degrades to a brawl it tells me, dollars to donuts, that it happens when they practice too. In other words, they practice at being this way.

[lkfmdc]

My basic problem with most of these types of arguments is what is "kung fu fighting" supposed to look like? All too often, I get the feeling, sometimes it is even spelled out, that "kung fu fighting" should look like a shaw brothers film. I had a training brother who really thought those movies were REAL... but of course that's just a movie and no more real than Jet Li's wire stunts are..

Anyone ever see anything even resembling a "fight" in which fists weren't balled up and some clubbing and smacking took place? Or where knee or a leg wasn't lashed out? Kick - boxing is a real generic kind of name, yeah, we are punching and we are kicking, other than that, what does it really mean?

[SifuAbel]

(In my best Jack Nicholson voice)

I've been saying that for frikkin years!!!!

[fa_jing]

If there is anything your CMA/Kung Fu should be teaching you it is basic footwork and how to punch and kick. IMO. Some would extend that ****her and say you should know how to throw or fight on the ground.

[truewrestler]

edit: just had to add... HAHA, fa_jing just got caught saying ****(oops, f4rt)... thank you, that is all


Originally posted by SifuAbel
You didn't answer my question, What complex crap?
You know... REAL Kung Fu



As per the term,

This is exactly my point, people refer to this as degrading to kickboxing when in fact its degraded to a school yard brawl not worthy of the kickboxing monicker. You are misunderstanding this term then. The people that seriously say "degrading to kickboxing" are ignorant people. They are not commenting on the sloppiness of someone, they are commenting that someone does not look like they are using REAL Kung Fu.

The way Jet Li fights in movies = REAL Kung Fu

[SifuAbel]

Am I misunderstaning it? No.

I understand how its being used and by whom.

Is it a correct usage? No. What they refer to and what it is are very different.

And what is real kung fu?

Jet Li sans the wire work? Partially. Most could do well to learn a little more defense. It doesn't have to be as pretty. Then again, what jet li does mostly is kicking and punching too. It may be a bit more creative than you are used to. ;)

Perhaps people should stop looking away or rolling their eyes when they see the wire work, they tend to miss a good deal of the basic stuff. People refer to the wire work almost 100% of the time, but its only 20% of the action(at least in his later films).

In general I get tired of people whom have no CMA experience at all telling ME what real kung fu is.(Not a person jibe, just a rant)

[SifuAbel]

" You know... REAL Kung Fu "

Yes , I know real kung fu. But I don't think you do.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SifuAbel

In general I get tired of people whom have no CMA experience at all telling ME what real kung fu is.(Not a person jibe, just a rant)

So what exactly then is real Kung Fu Abel? (serious question)

I've thought about this a lot, and what I've come up with is:

1. Structure. A lot of arts have good structure by necesity, but no one I've seen gets into it as deeply as the CMA
2. Yielding. Although I could be seeing more of this than most because of my Taiji background.

3. This is a maybe. Power generation? The boxing I'm doing generates power by pushing off the ground on the strike. The CMA I've learned sinks into the ground rather than pushes off of it. This is a maybe because there probably are CMA systems that push off the ground. I just haven't seen them personally.

[Musicalkatachmp]

Good thread

[truewrestler]

In general I get tired of people whom have no CMA experience at all telling ME what real kung fu is.(Not a person jibe, just a rant) I understand... especially because when I put REAL in all caps it signifies sarcasm. What I mean is what most people (99%) perceive as REAL Kung Fu is not real Kung Fu as far as real fighting goes.

When someone says Cung Le or any kickboxer with a kung fu background is not using real kung fu then they are ignorant.... these are the same people that say someone "degraded to kickboxing" simply because that person used basic attacks, stances and defense. It has nothing to do with them being sloppy... unless that means it doesn't look like REAL Kung Fu.

[Tak]

1. Structure. A lot of arts have good structure by necesity, but no one I've seen gets into it as deeply as the CMA Agreed.


2. Yielding. Although I could be seeing more of this than most because of my Taiji background. There's an aspect of yielding in all the CMA I've experienced, and that yielding leads into counters, locks, throws, etc, that you expect from "real kung fu."


3. This is a maybe. Power generation? The boxing I'm doing generates power by pushing off the ground on the strike. The CMA I've learned sinks into the ground rather than pushes off of it. This is a maybe because there probably are CMA systems that push off the ground. I just haven't seen them personally. Hmm. American boxing may have less of a focus on rooting because it doesn't have to deal with the risks of being thrown or having your legs taken out from under you. However, a wrestler (or a boxer with a wrestling background) would probably have more of a CMAlike rooting/power generation methodology.

[fa_jing]

Regarding yielding - I see it in Western Boxing when a fighter is up against the ropes, then side steps out of there. That's something I really need to work on - getting away from the strict forward and back fencing-like movement that most of we intermediate students suffer from....Rolling with the punches is another example.

Just an observation.

[fa_jing]

I really like some western boxers and I see alot of what I'm working towards present in their fighting style. My recent favorite is Kostya Tzyu - lots of straight punches, great, stiff jab, can jab with the right hand too....good power for his size, intelligent fighter. Good movement, great left hook. His Wing Chun is excellent. :D :D

[Christopher M]

Well, boxing is very sophisticated and when put in a crude and limiting arena like a training hall, it tends to degrade into a crude and limited art, such as kungfu. This doesn't mean there's anything wrong with boxing, just with entering training halls, which you'd only do if you had a huge ego anyway.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by truewrestler
I understand... especially because when I put REAL in all caps it signifies sarcasm. What I mean is what most people (99%) perceive as REAL Kung Fu is not real Kung Fu as far as real fighting goes.

When someone says Cung Le or any kickboxer with a kung fu background is not using real kung fu then they are ignorant.... these are the same people that say someone "degraded to kickboxing" simply because that person used basic attacks, stances and defense. It has nothing to do with them being sloppy... unless that means it doesn't look like REAL Kung Fu.

fair enough......... in Cung le's example yes, However the majority of times its because of the slop fest some fights turn into.

The term was used first to describe slop slingers, THEN it evolved to include the movie land bunch.

[SifuAbel]

" Hmm. American boxing may have less of a focus on rooting because it doesn't have to deal with the risks of being thrown or having your legs taken out from under you. However, a wrestler (or a boxer with a wrestling background) would probably have more of a CMAlike rooting/power generation methodology."


Yes, this is why i don't concider myself to be a "stand up" fighter in the strict sense of the phrase.

[Merryprankster]

A lot of arts have good structure by necesity, but no one I've seen gets into it as deeply as the CMA

You MUST be joking. Wrestling, Judo and BJJ are ENTIRELY about structure. Everything in these arts focuses on breaking the opponents structure while maintaining yours.

As much as we agree on many points, I completely disagree with your statement above.

[Water Dragon]

I'm sorry merryprankster. I musta missed the wrestling class where you spend 3 hours figuring out how to line up your body so that the other guy can push you full force and you don't move even though you're forcing your muscle to stay relaxed.

I think I also must missed the class where you put your body in the end postion of the cross, and then have your partner swing the heavy bag at you so you must maintain your structure as the 100 pound bag hits your fist. Again, force yourself to keep yopur muscles relaxed.

I think I also missed the class where the guy runs at you and you have to bounce him out without using muscle or adjusting your footwork.

Since wrestling, BJJ, and judo put the exact same focus on structure that the CMA do, I know those drills must be worked on pretty regularly.

[truewrestler]

MP, you don't do REAL Kung Fu like Water Dragon

WD, what does what you just described have to do with fighting?


I musta missed the wrestling class where you spend 3 hours figuring out how to line up your body so that the other guy can push you full force and you don't move even though you're forcing your muscle to stay relaxed. Actually wrestling is pretty old so someone already figured this one out.


I think I also must missed the class where you put your as the 100 pound bag hits your fist. Again, force yourself to keep yopur muscles relaxed. Is this used for the Kung Fu anti-grappling tackle defense where you stick your fist out and the attacker runs into it?


I think I also missed the class where the guy runs at you and you have to bounce him out without using muscle or adjusting your footwork. Oops, he picked me up.... but I thought I was rooted well

Water Dragon, you should try getting a position with a football team as the structure training coach

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by truewrestler

WD, what does what you just described have to do with fighting?


OK, even though you insist on being a dumfukk, I'll break it down as best I can. The main idea we are dealing with here is slack. The human body has a natural amopunt of slack in it because we have joints. Because of this, we also leak forc through our joints. If I can train my body to accept or emit force, without slack, I have just become more efficient. Not only can I deliver more power with less effort, I can also take more of YOUR force with less effort.

If you take a staff, and hold it against a wall and walk into it,it's gonna hurt. Why? no slack. If you take the same staff, cut it in half, and then tie the 2 halves together, it wont hurt near as much if you walk into it. Why? There's now a lot of slack.

And FYI, I do practice real Kung Fu. I also practice real Muay Thai and real boxing and real NHB under a guy with 32-0 Vale Tudo record. So what's your fukking point?

[CrippledAvenger]

truewrestler,

WD and I work out with the Shooto guys in Hammond. One of our trainers is fighting on the Ironheart Crown card on the 22nd. We're not the silk pj type, so you might want to reconsider what you're saying.

Edit: see above.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by truewrestler
WD, what does what you just described have to do with fighting?

I believe the sorts of things he's describing can be understood simply as training to move with strength.

There's, of course, a great many ways of carrying your body that make it more able to exert and constructively deal with force; a simple example being keeping some space in your armpits rather than resting your bicep against your ribs. One goal of this kind of training is to learn to move while continously adopting that sort of strong posture, rather than only starting and ending in strong postures with weak postures during transitional movements, which is what people tend to do more instinctively.

[Black Jack]

I think his point and I am not speaking for the gent and could be wrong is that the cultivation of proper mechanics is not the sole source of one cultural system or one groups way of thinking on what is the "correct".

Personally I believe that fighting is not dictated by a set styles specific conditioning but more about the psychological root of confrontation. That is why for me I do not 100% really buy into the this is better than that general conception of training. In the end I think it all boils down to the situation and not from the viewpoint of the boxer or the gung fu man or the persilat or the judoka.

btw- is trading places like one of the best movies ever or what.

[truewrestler]

wtf is in my cornflakes

WD, I think you are simply putting too much backing into simple static chi drills. They mean sh!t in the big picture of conditioning, technique, and experience... all of which contribute much more to economy of motion than static chi drills. That's what it boils down to... economy of motion.

It is nothing new... it's called learning, improving, adapting. This occurs in all things from sports to typing to video games to sex to programming to driving to swimming.

Then there is the staff... oh the staff. Lets put it this way... what is the staff made out of? Wood? Lets take your analogy of adding a joint in there. What makes that joint stronger: 1. hitting the end of the staff with a hammer for half an hour or 2. attaching metal brackets around the joint of the staff for reinforcement.

To improve the strength of a structure you don't pound on it to make it more stable, you improve the design (technique, muscle memory) of the structure and strength of the materials (muscles).

I'm not saying that your static drills are bad or worthless, just that they aren't a big deal as far as drills go let along a martial arts system as a whole.

[rubthebuddha]

hm. looks like captain obvious has entered the conversation.

truewrestler -- chi tricks haven't been brought up in this conversation, so stop assuming all CMA are based on them. your viewpoint about CMA is worse than ignorant -- it's ignorantly presumptive.

what WD is talking about is pure physiology and body mechanics. finding the best distance apart for feet for both balance and mobility isn't about chi -- it's about finding the best distance between feet for balance and mobility. spending some more time on finding how different positions can absorb impact better or be more structurally sound is the same. it has nothing do do with chi -- it's all about good physiology and knowing what is your optimum use of joints and muscles for a specific purpose.

assumption of anything less is asinine, and the only ass in this conversation is the one doing the assuming.

[brassmonkey]

I don't care what Shooter says, I don't believe Wrestling has peng jin.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by brassmonkey
I don't care what Shooter says, I don't believe Wrestling has peng jin.

JS: What is Peng Jin?

MR.FENG: It is a kind of power that both Internal and External styles should have (although External styles do not use this term). It is a protective, warding off, directed forward power, which is not weak/soft (ruan). All Taijiquan powers should have Peng, and the differences among them lie in different directions it is applied.

[Water Dragon]

I hate the whole post a paragraph, then rebutt $hit a lot of people like to do, but I think it's relevant here so I'm gonna do it.


WD, I think you are simply putting too much backing into simple static chi drills. They mean sh!t in the big picture of conditioning, technique, and experience... all of which contribute much more to economy of motion than static chi drills. That's what it boils down to... economy of motion.
OK, if you want to look at it in that way. in the big picture, rotating on the ball of the front foot when throwing a lead hook means $hit. Driving the pelvis forward on an armbar or triangle choke means $hit. Turning your head to the outside corner on O Goshi means $hit. Technically, those are all true statements. But are they all true statements?

Also, you're trying to troll me. You know my thoughts on the whole Chi thing. ou know I don't play that game.


Then there is the staff... oh the staff. Lets put it this way... what is the staff made out of? Wood? Lets take your analogy of adding a joint in there. What makes that joint stronger: 1. hitting the end of the staff with a hammer for half an hour or 2. attaching metal brackets around the joint of the staff for reinforcement.

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. In the analogy, your body is the staff. You want to make your body one inflexible whole at the moment of receiving/emitting force. This is what a lot of people call the ground path. I like steel wrapped in cotton better. The bones are lined up so they becaome as hard as steel while the muscle remains as soft as cotton. No, it's not literal, but it's a good thing to think about when hitting the heavy bag or working on counters to takedowns.

Also, there's nothing that says you as a wrestler can't take these ideas right now and apply them to what your doing. It's not rocket science. But have you ever heard a wrestling coach talk about it in that way or develop drills that focus on that attribute? I haven't.


To improve the strength of a structure you don't pound on it to make it more stable, you improve the design (technique, muscle memory) of the structure and strength of the materials (muscles).

Please see above


I'm not saying that your static drills are bad or worthless, just that they aren't a big deal as far as drills go let along a martial arts system as a whole.

Thank you for taking MP's dick out of your mouth long enough to holler some correct. You're 100 % dead on with this.

[truewrestler]

truewrestler -- chi tricks haven't been brought up in this conversation, so stop assuming all CMA are based on them. your viewpoint about CMA is worse than ignorant -- it's ignorantly presumptive. I wasn't presuming... I was being an ass. Somtimes I'm not sure if we are talking about external or internal force.

I do not discount that many static drills are effective but rather think they are only one small part of a means to an end. The factors to develop economy of motion/energy/force are muscle memory and instincts developed through repetition and experience. Strength and conditioning improvements add to this.

I would like to add more to this later but right now I have some work to do at..... work.



I'm not saying that your static drills are bad or worthless, just that they aren't a big deal as far as drills go let along a martial arts system as a whole. Thank you for taking MP's **** out of your mouth long enough to holler some correct. You're 100 % dead on with this. WTF are you talking about? He said nothing to the contrary... he appeared to simply be reacting to your elitist tone.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by truewrestler

Thank you for taking MP's **** out of your mouth long enough to holler some correct. You're 100 % dead on with this. WTF are you talking about? He said nothing to the contrary... he appeared to simply be reacting to your elitist tone. [/QUOTE]

MP is a big boy. He doesn't need you to be his Gong Fu hero. This is but yet another example of you down on your knees in front of the mighty Prankster. (Not really, cause you;re usually pretty cool truewrestler. But as long as you're gonn take the cynical/sarcastic @sshole tone with me, I'm gonna dish it right back at ya)

[truewrestler]

WD, you made a dumb comment... own up to it instead of changing the subject. MP and I haven't "touched hands" or any other body parts in years.

[Water Dragon]

Which one of my dumb comments are you referring to?

And was it dumber than your chi comments?

[SifuAbel]

I was hoping this thread wouldn't be hijacked into a tangent.

TW, Why do you assume all techniques in Kung fu are static?

Actually, this is how it starts. A question, a rebutle, then someone throws out a ton of technobabble, an erroneous assumtion, and finally some distorted fact written in stone about the subject after a hundred tangents.

[fa_jing]

So do you like cheese? Howz about a bacon sammich?

[SifuAbel]

I'd rather have a havarti and mortadella sammich

[truewrestler]

TW, Why do you assume all techniques in Kung fu are static? Why do you assume that I assumed that?

I didn't... I'm just talking about the drills that WD described that some how make KF "special"

[CrippledAvenger]

A thought: "special" seems to be equated here with "better" and I don't think that's really the case.

Maybe a better way of phrasing it would be "different". There's certainly difference to the two approaches and each trains slightly different attributes. However, I don't think I can say which approach is "the best", just which one I prefer.

[Merryprankster]

Please leave my body parts, and whether or not we've touched them, out of this thread.

Thanks.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by truewrestler
Why do you assume that I assumed that?

I didn't... I'm just talking about the drills that WD described that some how make KF "special"

I never said special, and I don't believe that. I said different. If Kung Fu was special, why would I waste my time with Boxing and Muay Thai?

Boxing is DIFFERENT from Muay Thai. Muay Thai is DIFFERENT from Savate. Savate is DIFFERENT from Judo. Judo may or may not be different than BJJ, but both are DIFFERENT than Folk Wrestling. Folk Wrestling is DIFFERENT from Shuai Chiao which is DIFFERENT than Xing Yi.

Each one is special in that they are unique training methods to gain specific skill sets.

Show me where I ever claimed Kung Fu was 'special' and I'll make a big ol apology thread for ya Truewrestler.

[truewrestler]

LOL

Even better... I'll try to restrain myself from making any more gay comments all together on this forum from here on out (unless provoked)

[truewrestler]

A lot of arts have good structure by necesity, but no one I've seen gets into it as deeply as the CMA This was your comment. Please explain what you meant by "not one I've seen gets into it as deeply as the CMA".

Would you say boxing doesn't get into punching as deeply as the CMA? Please explain.

Sorry if I misunderstood but I found the following comments aggressively stating that KF training methods are better.


I'm sorry merryprankster. I musta missed the wrestling class where you spend 3 hours figuring out how to line up your body so that the other guy can push you full force and you don't move even though you're forcing your muscle to stay relaxed.

I think I also must missed the class where you put your body in the end postion of the cross, and then have your partner swing the heavy bag at you so you must maintain your structure as the 100 pound bag hits your fist. Again, force yourself to keep yopur muscles relaxed.

I think I also missed the class where the guy runs at you and you have to bounce him out without using muscle or adjusting your footwork.

Since wrestling, BJJ, and judo put the exact same focus on structure that the CMA do, I know those drills must be worked on pretty regularly.

[backbreaker]

I try not to criticise other styles even if I think I could beat them because how can you know for sure.I do beleive all styles are unique.Many styles use things like structure,and different ways to generate power.And I'm sure all these styles develop alot of qi whether they have awareness of what they're doing or not.But I beleive internal CMA's anyways,are distinguished by pathways of energy generation which primarily begins in the dan tien and travels outwards down the legs to the ground and also out to the hands.Energy can also be collected inwards with nuetralizing,and also released back outwards in any direction,even behind you with your back or the back of your shoulder.This is supposed to become instantly neutralize and immediatly attack from a different angle all in one single movement,not many complicated combos.I beleive static and slow movements are important to ensure that your movements are seemless and completed through to their end,this is how you can instantly change techniques(like a chin na lock).Martial arts qigong also develops perfectly balanced leg strength.My impression of kungfu in a fight ,is that it would involve redirecting or neutralizing the opponents strikes,countering with a strike,kicking and knees, immediately clinch,don't walk into a punch but I think kungfu will be very strong in the clinch using shuai chiao throws and chin na to make the opponent go into a sommersault or at least spin around horizontally.I beleive if your stance is strong(and especially very relaxed)and you can withstand someone running at you,how can they pick you up with their arm strength if their body momentum is gone.From what I've seen,when someone gets picked up,they were first put off balance and made to stumble backward by the original force of the shoot,then they get picked up..Then you neutralize and redirect them with your energy internally and make em spin around while getting floor burn.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by truewrestler
This was your comment. Please explain what you meant by "not one I've seen gets into it as deeply as the CMA".

Would you say boxing doesn't get into punching as deeply as the CMA? Please explain.

Sorry if I misunderstood but I found the following comments aggressively stating that KF training methods are better.



A boxing coach won't sit there and correct the structural alignment of your forearm. He's more concerned with you doing the proper motions with the hips, punching from the legs, keeping your elbows down and your head up. Boxers tend to worry more about the mechanics than structure. (I boxed before I did Muay Thai).

By contrast, the CMA's I've seen worry much more about how your arm is structured at impact, how your body absorbs and redirects force, and how well you can hold the proper alignment. It's a different focus from boxing. Do I find it harder to learn? Yep. Do I think it's worthless, nope. It's just very goal-specific.

All Larry was saying in those comments is that the CMAs do things a little differently than the arts in question. They're not better, but they're not completely the same, (as I can see a little more clearly now, having done both) either. It's not elitism to note the differences between the two. Saying one would destroy the other one or is far superior without any evidence in support, however, is.

For the record, I'd like to state that I have the utmost respect for Merry. I just think he's not quite getting the distinction on this point. C'est la vie. I'm off to lunch.

[fa_jing]

backbreaker -
"This is supposed to become instantly neutralize and immediatly attack from a different angle all in one single movement,not many complicated combos"

"My impression of kungfu in a fight ,is"


"Supposed to" and "my impression" is a poor way to learn Kung Fu, and an even poorer way of discussing it in mixed company.

I'm not trying to pick on you. I understand you are a new poster here. If you want to discuss further please PM me.

[backbreaker]

I just use these terms because I don't want to sound like I think I'm an authority on martial arts.Also I beleive chinese martial arts are difficult to learn well so I'm not trying to sound absolute or that I know"proven facts,because I saw ufc 1".If I sound incomprehensible or like I'm rambling to you,sorry.I just thought I'd throw in my opinion.

[Meat Shake]

Just one thing... put a space after periods. Makes it kinda hard to read, looks real strung together.
;)

[fa_jing]

backbreaker - understood. But I think we should reserve judgement entirely, until we can make whatever it is work for ourselves.

[lkfmdc]

I told myself I was going to stay out of this mess, I swore it, I posted a little mild something, then went on my way, I guess I am not content being happy :)

I am about to dive face first into a storm, oh well, here we go..

My opinion, first we need to make definition #1, there is stuff that works and then there is crap, no need to talk about the crap...

I can probably get away with that one? :confused:

Of the stuff that works, I am going to start the controversial stuff here, girls, hold onto your boyfriends, take the children out of the room

All the S H I T is the same. It is only a matter of how the material is presented and how it is trained.

A wrestler thinks of techniques to win his match, he doesn't have any "high theory" but it is all there.

When he "bases out" he is sinking his daan tin.

His front body lock works because he is breaking and raising the other person's daan tin.

When he ankle picks, he is weighting his opponent, his "pummeling" is "push hands", by that I mean REAL PUSH HANDS and not the granola new age fruit cake crap that is done here so often. Anyone ever seen teh Chen village push hands championships?

The ONLY difference between Folk Style wrestling and Shuai Jiao is the JACKET, it is ALL wrestling.... People have vested interest in saying otherwise, but I really have to say it, it isn't true. It is all just "wrestling"... The reason former Soviet athletes kicked butt in everything from Greco-Roman to Judo, to Free Style to Sambo was that their sports program looked at it exactly that way, ie it was all just "wrestling"....

REAL "kung fu fighting" isn't any more about secret weasal death touches than western boxing is limited to what Lennox Lewis does. Read more about the history of boxing, especially in the bare knuckle days, you'll find characters that will remind you of Kung Fu Sifu! Back to Elliott Gorn's book, or look up Sydney Anglo's book on Renaissance martial arts!!!!!!!!

Well executed technique is a combination of proper strategy, proper physical execution and proper body mechanics. As the human body is the same whether you identify yourself as a "boxer" of "Shaolin monk", the similarities are astounding if you take a closer look....

Maybe I didn't make ANY sense with this post, maybe I started another flame war, but I felt like sharing anyway

:D

[red5angel]

makes sense to me.

[Tak]

Jacket? We don't use jackets. Maybe I'm in the minority?

[fa_jing]

lkfmdc you are soooo wrong, I don't know where to start......








:p :D

(j/k)

I think there may be some slight differences between application of arts, but the real differences lie in conceptualization and approach. The end result is practically the same. And it is fair to characterize these results using terms that are familiar to us. For example, your Wing Chun/Jow Ga/Lama/TaiJi horizontal/vertical/inverted/45 degree fist, are you using it as:

A jab?
A cross?
A hook?
A shovel hook?
A bolo punch?
A backfist?

Etc.

[Water Dragon]

But Coach Ross, you yourself have claimed in the past that many MMA guys who have walked into your gym have no idea what hit them. Why? because even though you use jab, cross, hook, and uppercut, the fighting theory is Chinese and that makes it different. <-- Ideas you yourself have posted on the kickboxing forum on mma.tv

So, if everything is the same, your guys couldn't have wowed the mma guys, because they would have seen it somewhwere already. And if they did get whooped on by your boys because you are showing them something different, what you just posted above is false.

So which idea is wrong? The one you posted on mma.tv or the one you posted on this thread? <-- lame attempt by H2O at playing devil's advocate

[fa_jing]

www.pimphats.com

just wanted to share

[lkfmdc]

Re "MMA types" you have TWO different issues...

1. You have bad trainers, I know a lot of guys who have "done boxing" who when they come to my gym are HORRIBLE, I mean, they make me SICK :D

I don't attribute that to boxing, I attribute that to bad trainers.

2. The "fighting theory" issue is one of integration of skills. Is their "boxing" in line with their "kicking"? If they did just boxing the answer is no. If they did Muay Thai, it may be yes, but it isn't in line with their "wrestling"...

That doesn't mean the individual executions of individual techniques is so extremely radically different, it means their OVERALL structure is different. A hip throw is a hip throw, but it is different if you set it up off a jacket grip, off a "naked" (no jacket) clinch or off a punch!

Now, I feel one of my "strengths" is being able to relate the thoery behind the movement to those who just have the movemetn (ie explaining to some who wrestled in HS that his moves are this and that, sinking, breaking the daan tin, weighting, etc)

OR

Getting thos hopeless closet kung fu types :) to manifest a practical application of theory they had been fed prior to meeting me

[Volcano Admim]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
So here’s the question. If I ‘reverted to Kung Fu’ in my kickboxing class, what exactly are all those CMA people we see on video reverting to if they’ve never trained kickboxing?

people that never really learned cma mechanics and stuff revert to kickboxing cos boxing/kickboxing/muay thai is something they always seen fighters doing on tv
its part of the unnconscious to put up a crappy boxing guard and bounce when fighting
it happens to cma people who do crappy cma
exepct sanshou people, who then do it on purpose or whatever
martial arts is fockid just like that

[Water Dragon]

Great answer coach

[Volcano Admim]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Great answer coach

No problem, you know im just here to help, W Dragon.
Though i dont train anymore i can see how a youngster like you can always use my good advice.

[lkfmdc]

San Shou/San Da people do not "bounce", only people who know NOTHING about the sport try and make them out to be pansy point karate guys...

The footwork is much more like a bowling ball on a spring, it alternates between sinking and rising, ie the weight sinks and the spring of the legs pushes it back up so there is an equilibrium, a sort of yin/yang thing. That is actually a fairly traditional principle from TCMA

[Volcano Admim]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
The footwork is much more like a bowling ball on a spring, it alternates between sinking and rising, ie the weight sinks and the spring of the legs pushes it back up so there is an equilibrium, a sort of yin/yang thing. That is actually a fairly traditional principle from TCMA

yin/yang my ass, that is MY old patterned bus ridding technique :mad:

[fa_jing]

Hey! I bounce. When I'm out of range, and I'm shaking off nervous energy in my legs and trying to stay loose. Never once have I bounced when in fighting distance, or when the opponent was coming towards me, or I towards them. And I never stall, I pick my time strategically and come in, even if the opponent is superior.

[lkfmdc]

If you want to yin/yang your ass, please don't ask us to be involved :D

[Volcano Admim]

lkmcDJbebop... listen to me and listen for the last time ok beofre i get really angry

you dont have the MORAL HEIGHT to be here in front of me talking like that, understand?
this is the LAST TIME you come here in MY HOUSE, try to play with MY RUBBER DOLL and get away with it :mad:
No, NE-VER again you disrespect me in fron of my family you hear me you dirty sckumbag, i RE-MEMBER how you and your friends were amused used to maek fun of me when were in kids back in school
Now dont YOU EVER cross my path again, and DO NOT pretend you dot know what im talkinb about here I WILL EAT YOUR BRAIN for breakfast if you ever disrespect me again. this isnt the old days, i am stronger than you now, now YOU are the geek afraid in the corner I AM YOUR BULLY PAYBACK TIME
You will pay for the suffering you caused and for taking away all my self-estem you piece of dirty yellow soft sh!t!!!
:mad: :mad:

[lkfmdc]

ding ding

time to take the little yellow pills again .......

[backbreaker]

I have also learned to shake out your arms and bounce if you get a chance when you are hurt or tired in Muay Thai. I have also learned that you can rest both your hands on your jaw to rest, but cheekbones or eyebrows are better.