The perfect system of government?

[shaolin kungfu]

Does it exist? If so, what is it?

That's it. That's the question. Think about it for a while, and write a response.

p.s.-I don't want this to become a name calling or bashing thread. Keep it civil, keep it safe. Debate is fine, but please no personal attacks.

p.s.s. I also posted this in the ORA forum, but since most people won't see it there (I hate to admit it, but it's the truth:( ) I decided to post here to.

[joedoe]

Human nature precludes the existence of a perfect system of government.

[Shaolinlueb]

its called communism or socialism... same thing almsot :-P



heck i dont know.

[shaolin kungfu]

could you explain?

This goes for everyone really. Good posts so far.:)

[Black Jack]

In its basic framework the perfect government has already been created. This creation being the USA and with its constitutional republic.

[joedoe]

You also need to clarify whether you mean a theoretical system of government, or the actual implementation of the governing system.

BJ - care to elaborate on your POV?

[shaolin kungfu]

well, in theory, and in practice. I won't limit you there. If you want to differentiate between hypotheticals and actuals go ahead.

And also feel free to come up with something on your own.(please, no "make me king of the universe stuff):)

[PHILBERT]

While communism could be considered the perfect system of government, the ideal communism will never come to being because people have opinions. We need gas station operators, so they pick me. Well I don't want to work in a gas station, so therefore it is not perfect.

One could say democracy, but then you get the different opinions on the coin. Take abortion, some say legel, some say not. Or prayer in school, or war in Iraq, people think differently, and they argue, and argue, and argue and nothing gets done. Or when it gets done, it gets *******ized. Because people have opinions.

One could say the ideal government was in the Garden of Eden where everyone would be happy and not have any cares in the world, but that was lost and so we must work. As long as people are capable of free thought, no perfect government will exist.

I mean, in my perfect government, I am the ruler of all. But I'm sure you people don't want me to rule all.

My Texas Government teacher said back when Arnold was running for governor, "You know people are asking what would our founding fathers think about this? I personally think they would love it. Because if you have a leader you do not like, take that leader out of office." And she is correct. Might be dumb, but I think George Washington, Jefferson, and all them others would feel like THAT was democracy at it's best.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Maybe the perfect system is soemthing along the lines I once read in a book many years (forgot the Title).

It is a city ruled by a benign dictator and everything works smoothly, till one boy decides to contact the top-guy.

In the end it is discovered that the Ruler died centuries ago and the goverment has just been running along flawlessly.
:D

[PHILBERT]

T'ai Ji Monkey, that was what happened in Equilibrium. The main character never met the ruler of the people, I can't recall what they called him. He'd seen pictures I think, but never met the man. Turns out when he finally did meet him, he had dies years before, and someone assumed his position and was using holograms and computers to make the people feel the man was still alive.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
T'ai Ji Monkey, that was what happened in Equilibrium. The main character never met the ruler of the people, I can't recall what they called him. He'd seen pictures I think, but never met the man. Turns out when he finally did meet him, he had dies years before, and someone assumed his position and was using holograms and computers to make the people feel the man was still alive.

Close but not the same, might be the same story with a hollywood twist added in?? ;)
The story in the book was set in a low-tech world, pre-victorian I think.

In the Book, nobody really knew who the ruler was as only a few people were supposed to have access to him.

The whole goverment structure was set up in a way that people only knew the people that worked close to them, kinda like a secret society where you only know 3 members.

In the end it was decided not to reveal that there is no ruler as everything was running smooth.

Somehow reminds me of the patriarch in the Discworld Series, where life without him is worse than life with him ruling.

[PHILBERT]

Well there really are only like 7 types of movie plots out there, each one twisted around into a new way. As far as Hollywood twists, the first Matrix was a twist of Plato/Socrates and the theory of the cave thing.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Haven't seen Equilibrium yet, but will keep an eye out for it.

Good chance that it went straight to Video/DVD over here, if it was released that is.
:p

[yenhoi]

You dont have to worry about the "peoples" opinions if you educate your population corectly. Of course the governing sect or caste has to have a vetting system for the workers and thier opinions.

Plato had it right. Communism.

Representitive Democracys are highly flawed. USA just happens to have become very powerful.

:eek:

[Meat Shake]

"In the end it is discovered that the Ruler died centuries ago and the goverment has just been running along flawlessly."

Dude, you totally ruined it for me. :mad:


;)


I think in theory, communism is great. Only problem, is that it never works.

[PHILBERT]

MeatShake, because as I said, people have opinions. If we could all agree, which won't ever happen, to take a job we enjoy, then it would work. But everyone wants to be rich and only want the best jobs.

As far as Equilibrium, you'll love the fight sequences. They mix martial arts with gun fighting, really awesome stuff.

[BentMonk]

[Agent Smith voice] - "The first matrix was designed to be a pardise where everyone was happy and none suffered. It was a disaster... You refused to accept the programming. It was a dream that your primative cerebrum kept trying to wake up from...Human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. So the matrix was redesigned to this..." :D

Sorry. I couldn't help myself. IMO, there is not, nor will there ever be a perfect system of government. It is human nature to be dissatisfied. No matter who's in charge, no matter what they do or don't do, somebody somewhere will complain about how bad it sucks. The US may be far from perfect, but check out some other countries. It doesn't suck nears as bad to live here as some people say it does.

[Meat Shake]

It doesnt suck to live here, just that Bush is a ****ing retarded piece of redneck trash, who completely misrepresents America, and worse than that, Texas... Id love to stomp on his face.

[BentMonk]

I was glad to see Bush go kick azz at first, but now his whole little hidden agenda has gotten WAY out of hand. IMO we need to cut the grass in our own yard before we go cut our neighbor's. Yes there are bad people in the world. NO it is not one country's job to be World Cop. When the rest of the world says, "Yo W, you need to chill." You'd think he'd get a clue. I guess not. CroCop in 2008! :D

[fa_jing]

Cooperative Anarchy.

[jun_erh]

James Madison, known as "the father of the constitution" wrote a book about the whole experience of it's creation from beginning to end.

long boring title... (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393304051/qid=1068839876/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-8795888-8692629?v=glance&s=books)

[PHILBERT]

If the government provided free health care for everyone, like in Canada, then I think we'd be perfect :p

[Chang Style Novice]

fa-jing, I think that's probably the same thing as is sometimes called anarchosyndicalism, although I wouldn't swear to it.

My beef (and, I suspect, the founding fathers') with Arnie's election is that it was set up so he could win outright with a small minority of yes votes. The ballot was split into two parts

1 - keep Davis, yes or no?

2 - if not Davis, then who? Arnie? Cruz? Larry Flynt? Mary Carey? Etc?

So, if you got a result of 50.01% 'no' on part 1, and Arnie got 45% on part 2, you'd get Arnold elected even though more people voted to retain Davis than elect Arnie. Strictly and completely undemocratic!

As far as I know (I didn't look at the results really closely) that isn't what actually happened, but still - the recall petition was badly flawed.

[mantis108]

Well, looking at the health care policy, budget, fundings, strategy, etc.. you've got to wonder whether Canadians are the "sickmen of America". Nothing is perfect as long as there is self-interests involve. Personally, I think the Canadian health care system is a paracommunist concept turned experiment that is running out of time and is destined to fail. It is a lost cause.

When you realize that the bloody professional Hockey player gets the star treatment (knee replacement or what not) first while the pool old lady that has been wait in queue for years suffers for more, it is pretty disgusting. That is no real "fair play". Not to mention that tax rates here are crazy. ;)

The only people that really gets any benefit from government, as least in Canada, are the **** blood sucking politians.

Mantis108

[Radhnoti]

My idea of a perfect government would come VERY close to a totally libertarian society.

www.libertarianism.com

I'm not too big on their ideas of no public lands, roads, etc...but it's a beautiful (if unlikely in this society) idea. Everything in the Constitution falls perfectly in line with libertarianism.


How would the U.S. provide free healthcare? Pay for everything health related, obviously. What would keep providers from charging outrageously? Caps on the amount that can be charged for procedures and forcing patients to stick with well established procedures if they are an option. In short, a dumbing down of our healthcare system.
Here in a nearby town, we have a group of doctors from Quebec. World class surgeons. They left their home country because they couldn't be payed what they're services were actually worth. Why would they stay and have their worth dictated to them there when they can go elsewhere, do what they're gifted to do, and be compensated fairly?
I've read that some doctors, expecting universal healthcare to pass, are already dropping from public practice. They're starting "personal healthcare clubs" or some such thing. Members have to pay a yearly fee, plus pay whatever cost arises for their services. They do make housecalls though...which is their big selling point. They're not serving in any government subsidized facility, so they hope to be exempt from our government's hoped for (for all practical purposes) socialist plan.

Free markets work, worldwide. When the experts are trying to fix a country's economy they don't say...let's give communism a try this time! They encourage free markets...it's the proven path to excellence.

[Chinwoo-er]

Perfect govenment in 4 words


Me, God
You, Servents

:D

[rubthebuddha]

chinwoo-er musta been a cat in a past life. :D

i don't think there can be such a thing as a perfect form of government. some may sound like crap on paper but work great in practice, and others may sound fantastic in theory but work like ass in real life. but everyone in the world has their own stance on what is better, and, from paying attention to us wing chun people, we all know that getting humans to agree on what is right is next to impossible.

[PHILBERT]

mantis108, I hate the taxes as it is, I won't notice more. I am 20, I live at home still and can not move out. I've said this before on the board, and this is my biggest beef with the government. My mom claims me as an exemption on her taxes. It makes my income go from $14k a year to $100K a year. When I apply for financial aid and scholarships, they look at my income, based off household (if I weren't claimed as an exemption, then what my parents made would be of no importance, they'd only look at mine) and see there is a $100K income and say "You have too much money, denied." and my mom goes "Oh that sucks. Have fun paying for school now on your own" and shuts the door on me. So all my money is going towards school when I could be living on my own if the government looked at my income and not my mothers, despite the fact I buy most of my own food.

[Radhnoti]

Philbert,

On the other end of the spectrum, I had a friend in college. As a high school junior he "officially" moved out and got a "controlled rent" apartment...where you pay a percentage of what you earn. As a student with no job, his income was 0. No rent. He worked cash only jobs and ate at his folk's place daily. When he went to college his folks gave him the money, not knowing that he had a free ride because of his income status.

He blew all the money on guns, martial arts lessons and ho's...he also had a sports car and exotic pets. Just one of those guys everything seems to go right for...


I SWEAR one time I heard him pick up a girl with the line, "Hey, let's go back to my place and get nekkid!"
Another time these girls were ignoring him, after he'd bragged to us about how he could attract them easily. I was laughing at him, he says, "Oh, so you doubt my power? Observe as I hook them." He then begins casually playing with a (semi-expensive) gold chain he was wearing. The girls approach, start playing with the same chain, he takes the prettiest one home.

Um...sorry, back to the government discussion.

[Christopher M]

Just because it's been brought up...

Anarcho-syndicalism (http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalists). Compare Anarcho-capitalism (http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism).

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
If the government provided free health care for everyone, like in Canada, then I think we'd be perfect :p

Free health-care and similar is an Illusion you still end up paying for it.
;)

I have lived in societies where goverment paid medical/education/pensions systems and some that don't.

Which is better.
Goverment paid is better for your mental state mind but on average covers less than private paid ones.
Need to have additional top-up cover and similar.

OTOH, where does the Goverment get the money from to provide those services: TAXES and other payments.

As a Family man I prefer Goverment supplied as they tend to provide a reasonable service that is always available and the chances of it disappearing(unemployment, etc) or getting drastically expensive is lower.

Where I am now we can "choose" between Goverment Medical Aid or company supplied(constitution states that everybody NEEDS to be on a medical aid).
Both types are 30%/70%.

I am on Company Medical Aid at the moment.

[Vash]

WTF?! The copy of this thread that I posted on was deleted? Someone must hate me ;)

The perfect governmental system, as has been previously stated, cannot exist. When you've got so many people together that one would need a governing body of this national scale, the stuff has already hit the fan.

There's too many of us to all get along. :(

[David Jamieson]

The edo system actually is a working model that has not been properly explored.

representative government, republics and sham democracies are a joke imo.

Communism never worked in practice and still doesn't although, I would say Cubas version is actually pretty dang good, although the Americans certainly have damaged them economically with their sanctions and embargos.

Otherwise, I think cuba comes closest to teh implementation of marxist ideology and governance system.

Ultimately, no government is best. Libertarian as I am. An administration of the coimmunal wealth to ensure services is really all that's required along with social construct rules for being a member of that society.

All you really need to do is peel back the layers and look at the question:

"do you need to be governed by someone else and if so why?"

If you answer that you need to be told how to live, then you are :

a) uneducated in how to be a social contributor.

b)have no measure of ability in running your life.

Governments are simply an arm of the wealthy to ensure they maintain their standard of living and continue to do it off your backs.

In the edo system, communities are the center and members of those communities deal with fair distribution of essential services and deal with any criminal elements should they arise.

What more do you need?
Do you need to be taxed 25 to 65% of your wages?
Do you need to have a mandatory public school system or would you rather have a standardized educational system?
Do you need to have a seat of irrefutable power?
Do you need to have others decide what is best for you?


If people simply took responsibility for themselves and there own actions, then government would not be required. A plan to live in a society of many people is one thing, but governance by definition is one person weilding power over another and frankly, the world could do with more of the former and a whole lot less of the latter.

North american governmental systems are flawed on several levels and in fact are irrepairable and better off scrapped.

The current iterations of communism are actually not even close to what marx wrote about in his manifesto, with the lone and single exception of cube which has a terrific literacy rate (something like 95% of total pop can read and write better than both canada and the US and just about every other western country in the world)
They also have completely free medical and university and almost zero unemployment. So, in that sense I would say Marx had more on teh ball than plato.

in all seriousness, plato was a bit out there in his ideas. He was spot on on many, but in terms of what the demos is and how it functions, this would be totally unacceptable in this day and age.

The USA is NOT a democracy, neither is Canada or the UK.

The USA is a republic, Canada is still more or less functioning politically as a colony except we don't feed taxes back to the UK anymore. However the head of state is the Queens representative here in Canada, and not the prime minister as people may think. Our senate is not elected but instead it is appointed (by the sitting prime minister lol ) mnay positions of extended power are appointed and elections are a vehicle of making the people play along and think they actually have some say in the matter. If they only really knew. For instance, our outgoing pm is Jean Chretien, Our New PM will be Prime minister of Canada and he will NOT be elected!!!! He will just take over the ship!!! That is NOT a democracy.

By the way, health care and higher education are not FREE either. You gotta pay and pay large to get a good education in Canada, and you have to leave the country to get medical services if you can't wait on a 2 year list for an mri or organ surgery or whatever. Our healthcare system while staffed with excellent people is choking to death as I type this. It will likely become a two tier system before long, one for teh rich and one for the rest of us.

Our education system and it's current standardized curriculum is turning out more group2 functional illiterates than ever! Not quite as many as in teh states, but hey, we have 1/10the the population. IN both countries there are huge numbers of people leaving high school who can barely read at a grade 8 level.

Taxation is through the roof, foreign policies are utterly ridiculous and the whole show is propped up on wealth dangling from the barrel of a gun.

In the future, the WTO will guide the member countries in their decisions and ultimately the world will be completely and utterly controlled by a very small group of men.

That is how it has been for all the ages and that is how it will be for the times to come. So long as peoples heads are empty and their bellies are full, there is no problem with this model in the west, the east the north or the south.

Bob dylan once said," If you are going to live outside the law, you have to be honest".

I would say, that without denying your self completely the amenities of the world, it is very difficult to get out from under the rule of another.

Life is indeed suffering.

Cheer up, we all get to die! Yayyy!

cheers

[The Willow Sword]

oh yes it is called GOVERNING YOURSELF.


Peace,,,TWS

[Marky]

The only perfect government will be one that presides over, and is presided over, by a perfect population. Democracy is an attempt to recognize and account for people's differences in opinion, and integrate that into the governance, but that inherently means that no two democracies are the same, and they're all likely to think they alone are perfect (much like martial artists, I suppose...).

Ultimately, are we talking about THEORY or PRACTICE? For example, someone mentioned that Cuba has a nearly perfect government... But that's because the population is suppressed. Personally, I believe a perfect government will preside over people who are perfectly happy, so Cuba doesn't stand a chance.

When it comes to being CLOSE TO PERFECT in regard to both the government AND the happiness of the people that are being governed, I would put my vote on Bhutan.

[Marky]

Hi Kung Lek,

When you say:


"All you really need to do is peel back the layers and look at the question:

"do you need to be governed by someone else and if so why?"

If you answer that you need to be told how to live, then you are :

a) uneducated in how to be a social contributor.

b)have no measure of ability in running your life."

You're neglecting a pretty big factor... How many socially noncontributive people with no ability to run their lives think they are perfectly capable of living without being governed? After all, no one wants to be the "stupid one" in the group. Would you trust your neighbor to answer that question AND BE RIGHT? Would he/she trust you? I'm sure there are plenty of murderers and rapists in the world who feel perfectly justified in their actions.

Everyone's looking out for themselves in the grand scheme of things, and I wouldn't trust a stranger to do what's "fair for everyone", whatever that means... ESPECIALLY if in order to be "fair", that stranger would have to make a personal sacrifice to help people he's never even heard of. For example, right now (at least, up until a little while ago) Americans were screaming about a recession, and the politicians just goaded them on to keep whining and complaining to the President. Yet those same people who were complaining were going out to Wal-Mart and buying all their "Made in Taiwan" and "Made in China" products because they were cheaper than anything made in America. By that action they don't contribute to the GDP and they're hurting American businesses, which in turn hurts the economy further. We all want a high-paying job... Yet we don't relate that to the fact that WE have to pay the high salaries of people just like us by purchasing American products! So we keep buying the cheapest stuff because that's "good for us", then we complain that the President hasn't fixed the economy. People who live in a democracy forget just how important their actions are to the survival of that democracy... And the politicians don't say a word, because they're too busy trying to be "king of the mountain".

For that matter, I don't trust politicians to tell us what to do either. After all, every politician is as much an ignorant fool as the rest of us, looking for his "fair share".

By the way, Kung Lek, only that first small segment was directed at your analysis of the question, the rest was just random ranting.

[Liokault]

Communism never worked in practice and still doesn't although, I would say Cubas version is actually pretty dang good, although the Americans certainly have damaged them economically with their sanctions and embargos.

The other thing that is wrong with Cuba is that alot of people fought and died on Castros promise of free elections after the war. That never happend.


Ultimately, are we talking about THEORY or PRACTICE? For example, someone mentioned that Cuba has a nearly perfect government... But that's because the population is suppressed. Personally, I believe a perfect government will preside over people who are perfectly happy, so Cuba doesn't stand a chance.

But how much happyer they would be if America (land of the free) didnt didnt hold their heads underwater?

[David Jamieson]

You're neglecting a pretty big factor... How many socially noncontributive people with no ability to run their lives think they are perfectly capable of living without being governed? After all, no one wants to be the "stupid one" in the group. Would you trust your neighbor to answer that question AND BE RIGHT? Would he/she trust you? I'm sure there are plenty of murderers and rapists in the world who feel perfectly justified in their actions.

when a social construct is established, it is more of a question of distribution of care, to those who need to be cared for and crime and punishment. So, those who could not take care of themselves or contribute to the social construct on a median would be not goverened, but taken care of in a responsible and humanitarian fashion. It is true, my model given is dependent upon changing the current paradigm almost completely.


Everyone's looking out for themselves in the grand scheme of things, and I wouldn't trust a stranger to do what's "fair for everyone", whatever that means... ESPECIALLY if in order to be "fair", that stranger would have to make a personal sacrifice to help people he's never even heard of. That is the current form of several government models right now, east and west, communist and capitalist.[/QUOTE]


For example, right now (at least, up until a little while ago) Americans were screaming about a recession, and the politicians just goaded them on to keep whining and complaining to the President. Yet those same people who were complaining were going out to Wal-Mart and buying all their "Made in Taiwan" and "Made in China" products because they were cheaper than anything made in America. That is the economics of the corporate line. Produce cheap and sell in a market with a higher standard of living that will pay more for cheaply produced goods.


By that action they don't contribute to the GDP and they're hurting American businesses, which in turn hurts the economy further.
This is entirely related to the fact that corporations and businesses are allowed by law to exploit the services of countries with lower standards of living. If you had to buy everything made in the country of your living, then your standard of living would be lower dependent upon the cost of doing business and the profi margin which all trickles down to teh size of paycheques on a median.



We all want a high-paying job... Yet we don't relate that to the fact that WE have to pay the high salaries of people just like us by purchasing American products! So we keep buying the cheapest stuff because that's "good for us", then we complain that the President hasn't fixed the economy. That is the correlation and teh president of the US has not fixed the economy. It has little to do with the matter that people are pointing it out.


People who live in a democracy forget just how important their actions are to the survival of that democracy... And the politicians don't say a word, because they're too busy trying to be "king of the mountain".

For teh sake of putting a number on it, if only 35% of the population votes, that 35% accounts for 100% of all votes. Therein lies a major problem in representative government as is teh model of most western countries.


For that matter, I don't trust politicians to tell us what to do either. After all, every politician is as much an ignorant fool as the rest of us, looking for his "fair share". THat is where it is entirely dependent on ethics and morals of the individual. The problem in my eyes is that the political offices have become these administrations that exist to kepp themselves running and in doing that, they lose sight of the original mission of government.


By the way, Kung Lek, only that first small segment was directed at your analysis of the question, the rest was just random ranting. :P understood.

cheers