Everything has a begining

[Phenix]

It is not suprise, in the history, people will made all type of claim. define anything as one likes. making absurd links to Daoism, Budhism.... or even go as far as denying nature, and when pointed out the ignorance, one will use shoot the messanger type of tactic trying to discredit the information.... ....

Here, I pull out the Emei 12 Post system Diagram. E12P is one of the mother art of Yik Kam's SLT beside White Crane from Fujian again. The link from Yik Kam's SLT at Red Boat to the E12P is a solid one because Yik Kam's SLT kuen kuit using certain Kuen Kuit of E12P and we have those data today. Thus, with evidents, this topic related to a member of WCK in the Red Boat era.

Perhaps this link applied to all other lineages of WCK from the Red Boat. Perhaps it is just limited to Yik Kam's art. However, that is not the focus. The focus is let's exam how the ancient Chinese people put things together. For we cannot presume they think similar to us in our Matrix era.

This diagram is a good example of a blue print of how a cultivation/healing/martial art system of ancient china some hundred years ago. How the core, implementation, fusing of different Chinese culture components. It is a full architecture fill with details. it consist of different levels.

If people are interested. I can go further to explain this diagram into details. This is a solely technical intended topic for educational purpose. and when one has a view of what is likely for the ancient chinese one knows what is not likely.
Why is this type of thing important for Martial art? because it tell the core of the art. It is similar to knowing the Vision, then Mission, then Goal, Then strategy, Then implementation details...

-------------
PS:
:D certainly don't expect me to act exactly like a Buddha even I can explain buddha's sutra due to I learn it from monks. However, atleast we have an idea about what is what instead take everything blindly.

[S.Teebas]

Hi Phenix,

Id be interested in hearing an explination of this diagram.

Is it possible to explain it in clear terms to a person who doesnt have knowledge of 'sutras' or chinese words etc??

Thanks,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Hi Phenix,

Id be interested in hearing an explination of this diagram.

Is it possible to explain it in clear terms to a person who doesnt have knowledge of 'sutras' or chinese words etc??

Thanks,


Sure. as clear as water. however, there will be some terms which we have to define with today's language. and please take into account that since I am not the creator of the system so I can only tell the story based on my understanding according from the investigation and attainment. you can't hold me as perfect . there is much more for me to learn.


Let's go through this in a systematic way, step by step in a series of post. and if there is any question. Please raise it and I will try my best to answer and clearify them. And sometimes, alots of time, I might not know because I haven't attain them. and sometimes, I oops while typing.... since I just type what comes to my mind without drafting while looking at the picture.



Ok, Let start with the introduction of who created this system....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

A. Introduction


1, according to history, A Daoist turn Buddhist Monk who's Name was White Cloud Chan Master created this system in Song Dynasty after his enligthement. It was said that he belongs to the Ling Tzi Chan School. But at Tang or Song dynasty, Buddhist monks are great scholars where they often learn different school of teaching. and from the system he created. It indicate that White Cloud Chan Master is also a Mater of Esoteric Buddhism.

These monks at the time of Tang and Song dynasty, They are very wide and broad people. One can view them as some professors or artists or scholars or engineers in today's world. The era they live in has similar to living in USA now. where lots of things are very open. Girl can wear sexy dress, Female can ride horse. and the dress they wear in Tang dynasty has similarity to the Kimono of Japanse today. People learning Sanskrit, Japanese scholars visiting.... petty open environment.

2, Since this White Cloud Buddhist monk was a great master of Daoism, Chinese Medicine, martial arts, and now enligtent. With his vision and inspration, he created a cultivation method system with the main purpose to lead others in thier cultivation. Leading them from standing moving meditation to sitting meditation. Leading them from body physical training to energy awareness to the enter the transcendental with effortless alertness.

And, while practsing White Cloud's path, since the system deal with physical, energy, conciousness.... the other bi fruits of this practice such as strengterning body, healing, martial art application comes with it.

3, So, to create the system, since he was a master of Daoism, Chinese medicine, and he was in China. He uses the Daosim and Chinese Medicine "model" heavily to explain the system instead of using the Chakra System of Ancient India which appear in the Buddhist sutras when dealing with energy. With the way the language used in the writing, his audiance should be in the literate to master class of people.


4, the core of the system remain in Buddhism. Which is the Buddha Nature itself.

5. this system was then practice and passed down within the Gold Summit Temple of Emei Mt. and limited to monk of this temple. According to history record, there was a non monk lay person who learn this system in Qing Dynasty in the time of KangXi emperor. and, it is not until 1950's. this system was release to the public and ended the one monk per generation of transmission practise.

6. SLT connection. since there is only one non monk lay person learn this system at the Kang Xi emperor era. and this system was no release to public but one monk per generation tradition until 1950'. How come in the Kuen Kuit of SLT which Yik Kam passed down from red boat to Cho family has similarity Kuen kuit of this system ? Some monk from the Emei Goldern Summit is leaking this art out? or that non monk who learn this art in the KangXi era some how related to the Red Boat? Who is Miu Shun? as in the written history who fuse his own art with white crane?



7, the name Emei 12 post. Post or Zhuang means a major high way which can lead to various of places in ancient time. So, Post means a Path or Way similar to say a Highway of our time. or even you can look at it as an international airport.

Ok, so the meaning of Emei 12 post. is like 12 airport /highway of Emei mountain. or 12 path of Emei Mt. or 12 technology core of Emei Mt.

Thus, this word post is not limited to the post of standing post. or a woodern post or a woodern dummy.


------------------------------------------------

[Phenix]

Note: Since I only have small chunk of time. so, I will do small part and back and forth and updating.....

------------------------------------------------------------

B, The core/ platform/ ground


1, the very top of the picture where it said 12 jong diagram.
in detail, it said : the 12 post graphical explanation section.
So, this picture is for graphically map out the 12 post's key architecture.


2, on the very bottom of the picture, there is a "rectengular "shape. made up by to broder lines and dotted lines which lead to the top.
and on top of this "rectengular" shape is a lotus flower. within this "rectengular" the circle in the middle of that 5 circles said Buddha nature or Heart Nature. the 4 circles surround this center circle are the True circle, the Emptiness circle, the wonderful circle, the existence circle. the four connect of this "rectengular" is the 4 wisdoms of the Tatagata.


3, this "rectangular" is the "Ground" of all things to the top of it.
So, it is the source of everything above it. or give birth to everything above it.


4, let's get back to the middle circle which is saying Buddha Nature. since this is an abstract term a non-duality( am I use the correct term Joy?)

this abstract was then further define into four circle which said "True emptiness wonderful existance. " and then it further include the Tatagatas' four wisdom. trying to discribe what is the Buddha nature and what is the "ground" or the "source".

5, The closest thing we can relate to
"True emptiness wonderful existance' is "silence."
If you know "silence" not imagine or thinking as an idea.
It is a kind of emptiness but it wonderfully exist.
Certainly, within this silence there is objective silence and subjective silence. Those stuffs needs to be varify in deep meditation..... the obsever and the observed.... you need a great patriach to go there. Read some Krisnamurti to have some "sense"... For people who listern to the Sound Body Sound Mind, the "deep" is close to here.

6, Notice that I say the closest thing we can relate to? What I mean is this is an attemp to descrip. I am not the buddha the perfect enligtent one. so Take this as the best I can offer. since I am still learning.

one has to see the real sky instead of the sky in the picture to really "fully know" the sky.
So, I am just trying to build a mental picture this is not the real thing if you not "experience " it or passed over the Satory. Be caution. You intersted to experience the real thing. Get a partiach and certainly that is not me.

However, since we all have this "true emptiness wonderful existance" "nature" we are actually using it all day long but not reckonized in. Sometimes, we saw the Shadow of it.... we call that "silence" in our term.

7, As for the tatagatas 4 wisdom. it is a description of one's wisdom nature.
The closest we can related to is how are we operate
when we are embracing equally without looking down at others, having a full view without anger, knowing without desire of having, contentment without jealosy... it is a peace, flex flow kind of stuffs.


8, Note, all these description above exist in the same instant. it is not a sequence. the description only trying to describe a elephant from different angle. So, do not take any single description and hold that to be the it. and a sky is a sky only when one has seen it.


9, since it is a buddhist art. so, based on this nature or Buddha nature, the E12P system was created or brought to the world. Notice that in the Buddhist view.
The E12P is based on the Buddha nature. Similar to as Christian, based from God sense. or The Daoist, based on Dao.






-------------------------------
:D look at a river or a sea or sky or night line or listern to a noisy heavy rock, or watching Matrix..... and see if you recognize the always present of the objective silence and subjective silence...... and all the nature qualities describ above. one's thought or emotion or idea might just be the end product of the silence transformation. it is ended and completed when one "saw" it. thus, the Chan school practicing Chan Fua To or Allert on the begining of the mental object. That is the practice to develop the awareness so that somedays "saw" the nature ---- the true emptiness wonderfull existence. and leaving the attactment of the "completed" thought or idea.

Don't believe me. but think about it. those programing stuffs doesn't work. those rigid forcing idea doesn't work.

Those "No Silence and No Not Silence" type of logical thinking only yield Dullness in mind. If you don't believe me, plug the "no silence and No not-silence " in your mind and see what state is it become? that is dull stuck state, it cannot be a ground for anything alive.

certainly, one can start argue. But, that is a waisting of energy defending an ego of in experience. " silence" is a "finger" pointing at the moon. an it is a waisting of time instead of looking at the moon, thinking about finger , and thinking about what is a moon. Just look at the moon, it is there. look but not think is the key. It one look at a wrong direction, it is simple. Just change the direction. However, if one mistaken Look as Think. one trap in one's thinking and will never look. then, it is hopeless to see a moon until someday one learn to not use the logical mind.

well, again I am not buddha and patriach. get a real patriach if you are serious.

Silence has to come from the nature since we are not making up anything. we are trying to recognize our nature which is alive, vibrant, tranquil, peace, and creative. and based on that to bring the martial art to the physical world. we are human thus we cannot become animal. we are human thus we cannot become robot. we can pretend but someday we will recognized we can't live that way and feel alive.

[Phenix]

Ok, After the Non dual stuffs. So how is the non dual going to get into the physical world.


------------------

C, Duality Domain/ physical world.



So, if we look at the Stuffs between the "rectangular" and the top line. Heaven, earth, .... small, Bright.
This is what happen according to the picture.


1, The Nature or the platform transform into Shen Qi Jin. Here is how White Cloud Master applied his Daoist, TCM model, Chinese culture instead of Indian one with Sanskrit and Chakras.....


2, notice that the the Shen (concious/spirit) which is in the "mind" domain become the " core" of the Yong or application.
and the Jin (material essentce ) which is in the "physical body" domain become the "core" of the Tee or body (physical). while Qi (breathing and qi energy) is between or the bridge between Mind and body. and Qi contribute to the formation of Shape or Material or physical.

So, from the buddha nature, give birth to Shen, qi, Jin. and the spirit, breathing, and essence further give raise to the Application and the Body.

4, now, when it is in the realm of Physical Body and Application.
we are in the realm of duality. Thus, we have to deal or make use of with Yin/Yang, Internal/ External, Fine/Rough, Begin/End, us/other, Solid/hollow.......

5, notice that there are two lines travel from the Ground or Buddha Nature or the True Emptiness wonderfull existence to the top? the one one the left is vibrant / lively/ flexible/flow which support the Yong or application and the top lines. the line on the right is TRanquility/free/ease/spacial which support the Tee or body. These two lines are trying to point out the True emptiness Wonderful existance transform into these quality in these domain.

6. Thus, within application domain, if it is not vibrant/ lively/ flexible/flow then it is "dead dull". Thus, within The body domain if it is not Tranquil/ free/ ease/ spacial then it is "dead rigid".

7, thus, one knows how in duality domain things has to be.

--------------------------

After the non duality and duality define. next entering into the 12 post set itself.

[Phenix]

D, The 12 post


Finally, looking at the top of the line which starts with Heaven, Earth......



1, the ultimate goal of the E12P is to "going back" into Non Duality from Duality. Thus, the E12P training is a reverse of "creation" or Going Back to the "nature".

2, there are 12 sets of training thus it was named as 12post.
The heaven the earth two posts are the fundations of the whole 12post. the progress of the training is based on every individual's progress and one's body energy's/ both Qi and physical's Yin/Yang solid/hollow... to assign lively. even it is only 12 types of training, it has unlimited of flexible in training.



3, the E12P consist of Buddhism's mahayana's Buddha nature platform with teravada's vipassana training , and including Daoism's moving Gong training as the foundation of its Mind/Body/Active/Still training.


4, The Bright set is perform in sitting meditation. The Darkly quiet set consist of ground movements. The dragon set fills with spine, legs, levitation.. training. The Wind and Cloud are the based of Sticky listerning (chi), suck rest (Dat),...... close body combart applications..... The small set train the details.....

5, All the training are manual within the realm of Qi/breathing/mai/ the heat energy flowing in the body/physical join, sinews, muscle, structure/ mind contemplation/ alertness.... and their interaction with details. There are 36 different kinds of Jing hidden in the sets. With various Martial arts applications examples : Ie, in the old time, when one become Mad as crazy, the healer has to tame him down without hurting him and need to cure him. Thus, the taming, locking,... of mind body need to be utilized. And in E12P there where such application example... Group fighting applicatons also mentioned.....


6, The training of every individual post consist of 9 level of attainment. such as Begin with the handling of the movement, fusing with breathing.... transform into light...... Usually for healing purpose the first 3 level of attainments are edequate.



Here, the pictures were briefly going through. Hope that it give a brief taste of what is this art is like. It was created 700's years ago with sticky and listerning or Chi, and Dap as Dap sau .....concepts...
From Standing, moving, levitating, sinking, grounding, meditating, Details of the Mind/breathing/body/application ... those are the training covered by the E12P. It is a system cover lots of different movements.....

E12P is a grad school topic for Martial art lovers who loves the philosophical aspect, mind/breathing/body espect of martial art. it worthed to take a sip on this deep sea.


Finally, again, I would like to put this in a cap letter
IT IS ABOUT LIVING WITH PEACE NOT ABOUT WAR AND KILLING. GREAT ART HAS GREAT RESPOSIBILITY. Any thought of digging into E12P to take the applications of E12P itself for fighting purpose must be avoid. IMHO, we want to treat something sacrate with peace.

AS THE E12P KUEN KUIT SAID:

WITHIN THE ASURA (BEING WHO LOVE TO FIGHT)
COMPASSIONATE IS A MUST
(WE) THE DISCIPLE OF BUDDHA
(WE) TAKE THE PRECEPT OF NOT KILLING.


Don't created bad karma.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Thus, with the finding of E12P kuen kuit which matches and supporting Yik Kam's Kuen Kuit decades ago.

The modern claim of the creation of Yik Kam SLT is from a older Shao Lin art..... and YIK Kam SLT is belongs to Modification or Modern version of other Original WCK is totally absurd.

[Phenix]

The platform and the duality describe above shows the soul of the art. it is similar to the electrical energy. one needs to know what is it and how is generate and its present.

Implementation is similar to the shape of the water which is continously changing, transform....

Thus, the "soul" of the art needs to be cultivate rather then studying a few examples.

The Chinese said, "win it with wisdom instead of Power. using non change to response to millions of change." The key lay in the understanding or achivement within the realm of non duality and duality.

Thus, the picture place a big part of the above concept/philosophy in it and the 12 post details only a small part.
Apply a duality view, the non duality and duality concept is the root and the implementation details are the branches of a tree.

Certainly, the implementation and some keys in the implementation are also important. But those are mostly statics or constant patten dynamic. it is from these static or constant patten dynamic that hopefully we "see" the non duality characteristics to make one a master of the art. But, the static and constant patten dynamic it self is not the ultimate. they are just duality boat for crossing the river. They are "completed" by thier inventors. hopefully from these "completed" we can see the shadow of "live" and understood the " live ".

As we all knows we don't know the guy who we meet in the street will start with a kick or a punch or in any distance. Thus, everything has to be adjust accordingly.


Be it an artist or a design engineer. even in the world of engineering, the university can teach analysis but it can't teaches adaptive synthesis optimization or creative design. Thus, there is plenty of design engineers but very few Guru of desgin.

Ven. White Cloud seems to take on a hard job ploting for a path to mastering, however it indeed is not an easy path even to understand, will be very dry and dull for most, and not everyone's pice of cake, until somedays one meet the silence and want to know more about what happen "up there" about creation. and, one can also view destruction is a part of creation. because it is about creating destruction. martail artists creat destruction :D

On the other hand, simple or direct cannot has a clumpsy process and simple has to have a non linear time and space. example and drill are generally based on linear time and space. Thus, until one get hold on the "silence" one's mind will be fill with different kind of stratergy..technics...he did this i do that..... with is great and work but cannot be ultimate because those are "Pre -completed" before one uses them. that cannot be simple. In addition, the experience of "silence" has differnt level. some more advane and some less..... I guess O sensie of Aikido, Wang Xian-Chai of Yee Chuan, or Sun Lu-Dang ... will be a better person to talk about this topic then me.


So, a question might be asked. if the core of E12P is "true emptiness wonderful existance" or "Thus Thus not moving" ect as I present in the SLT post to Paul Huang.

then what is Shao Lin's.
If you notice, the true shao lin art from Chan lineage Will all come with two type of term.

1, Chan and Kuen (martial art) is non dual. Or Chan Chuan Yee Ru.
2, Unmoveable heart. or Pu Dong Xin. The ultimate and the begining of studying Shao Lin martial art is to study this Pu Dong Xin or unmoveable heart. So what is Unmoveable heart? it is another term for Buddha nature. The unmoveable heart term emphasis the not abide quality more. and the TRue emptiness Wonderfull existance term emphasis the " vast capability of transformation" quality more. IMHO.

Any Claim to be Shao Lin Chan martial art without these Two types of Kuit might be a Shao Lin art, but it certainly will be in the realm of Duality. which is not that advance at all.

Check even the Japanesse Shao Lin Jee Kempo. I remember they has a plaq of Chan Chuan Yee Ru somewhere.




-------------------------------

:D I know I must be bored everyone to death with the above post. hahahaha.

I wrote this years ago
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/columns/santo/clouds03_silence.html
in the column Grasping the Cloud. By now may be one know Grasping the Cloud means trying to Grasp what the Ven White Cloud teaches.

I particular like the lyrics of the song

"And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon gods they made.
And the sign flashed out its warning,
In the words that it was forming,
And the sign said,
"The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls."
And whispered in the sounds of silence."

People might think I am getting sacastics... and honestly I am not. sometimes I even view myself as dogmatism remember I have a copy of Yik Kam's SLT operating Manual? :D
Studying that and make a big deal is similar to the stanza in the article.

"The open door you won't go out.
Crashing your head into the window's paper is too ignorant.
Hundreds of years of drilling into the old window ( kuen kuit) paper.
When are you going to get out of here?"

hahaha so take what is good and left what is my ego and dogmatism. Dao is alive not in that old papers. and I am just human :D

peace

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Hendrix.
you wrote;
>>Any Claim to be Shao Lin Chan martial art without these Two types of Kuit might be a Shao Lin art, but it certainly will be in the realm of Duality. which is not that advance at all.<<
Were you refering to any MA in particular?

[curtis]

Phenix
GET OFF YOU HIGH HORSE!

What is traditional Wingchun ANYWAYS?
Is it what your teacher taught you? Or is it what Yip Man did? If so, during what time period ?
I am sorry to say, what Yip Man taught, Leung Sheung (Yip Man's first student.), is not the same thing as what he taught William Cheung, Leung Ting, Yip Chung, Or Even Bruce Lee.
Yip Man changed his training and teaching patterns over the years, who was to say what is right and what is wrong? Or why he changed what he did? One thing is clear, each of these man that I mentioned are masters in their own right, So again I ask, is what is traditional Wingchun if everyone is doing it differently?
I understand peoples need to feel good about themselves.
Lineages are very important to some people, but who is fooling whom?
When you teach a person your art, they naturally modify and change to suit their individual needs, sometimes purposely, other times, unintentionally.
No matter what the core art starts out as ,over the years it changes, this is neither good or bad, it is called evolution.
So before you start knocking down other People's's thoughts and ideas concerning lineages and heritages you must first take a close look at your own! before throwing mud at others.
I strongly believe that there is no such thing as a "traditional" "art".
what we call traditional today, could have be considered a radical idea yesterday, it's whatever perspective you choose to take.
But those are just my thoughts.
Sincerely C.A.G.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Hi Hendrix.
you wrote;
>>Any Claim to be Shao Lin Chan martial art without these Two types of Kuit might be a Shao Lin art, but it certainly will be in the realm of Duality. which is not that advance at all.<<
Were you refering to any MA in particular?


Hi Phi,

No particular,


Shao Lin's Core or sum fat or the Mind Method is the Buddha nature. So, shao lin teaching either Chan or martial art's ultimately has to base on this core and return to this core.


It is similar to Chris of Christian. disregard how the preaching, practice... method changes era to era.... Chris always is the center.


Certainly, there is Shao Lin MA which passed down after generation later that losing this core. When this core is lost, then the art has no Sum Fat to base the art and ultimate to return to. It become collection of technics. For ancient Chinese, martial art is a projection of "DAO". Thus, the core of the sum fat is very important.
But then, one also has to considerate the level of literate in ancient china.

Thus, the story of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon has some truth in it. One can learn the techincs but if one got the core or Sum Fat then one has atleast another degree of Freedom. And oftern that differentiate the Indoor student and outdoor student. Outdoor student will never thought the core thus the art was keep "control" by the indoor or gate keeper who suppose to be the holder of the Sum Fat.

So, in fact, there are stories that while some Ming Generals lost to the Qing, they hide in the Temple. Thinking if they got the sum fat of Buddhism, then cultivation to attan super nature power, as describe in the Surangama Sutra, then they can go revenge or reform.....
But, if you take a look, it seems that these generas even after they attain advance super nature power. The become monks and preach on peace in stead of killing.

Take a look of the following on the super nature power.

and, The so called Yuhn Sahn of Daoist is related to body produced by intent¡¦ in the realm of 5 skandhas.

This is playing with fire if one doesn't have patriach to coach and guard them proper. Even the E12P will /might go through this state while breaking through the Skandhas.



---------------------------- Shurangama Sutra -------------

Ananda, when the good person who is cultivating samadhi
has put an end to the feeling skandha, although he has not
achieved freedom from outflows, his mind can leave his body
the way a bird escapes from a cage. From within his ordinary
body, he already has the potential for ascending through the
Bodhisattvas¡¦ sixty levels of sagehood.

He attains the ¡¥body
produced by intent¡¦ and can roam freely without obstruction.
This is like someone talking in his sleep. Although he does
not know he is doing it, his words are clear, and his voice and
inflection are all in order, so those who are awake can
understand what he is saying. This is the region of the thinking
skandha.

If he puts an end to his stirring thoughts and rids himself
of superfluous thinking, it is as if he has purged defilement
from the enlightened, understanding mind. Then he is perfectly
clear about the births and deaths of all categories of beings
from beginning to end. This is the end of the thinking skandha.
He can then transcend the turbidity of afflictions. Contemplating
the cause of the thinking skandha, one sees that interconnected
false thoughts are its source.

Ananda, in the unhindered clarity and wonder that ensues
after the feeling skandha is gone, this good person is untroubled
by any deviant mental state and experiences perfect, bright
concentration. Within samadhi, his mind craves its perfect
brightness, so he sharpens his concentrated thought as he
greedily seeks for cleverness and skill.

At that time a demon from the heavens seizes the
opportunity it has been waiting for. Its spirit possesses another
person and uses him as a mouthpiece to expound the Sutras and
the Dharma.

This person, unaware that he is possessed by a demon,
claims he has reached unsurpassed Nirvana. When he comes to
see that good person who seeks cleverness and skill, he arranges
a seat and speaks the Dharma. In an instant, he may appear to
be a Bhikshu, enabling that person to see him as such, or he
may appear as Shakra, as a woman, or as a Bhikshuni; or his
body may emit light as he sleeps in a dark room.

The good person is beguiled and fooled into thinking that
the other is a Bodhisattva. He believes the other¡¦s teachings and
his mind is swayed. He breaks the Buddha¡¦s moral precepts and
covertly indulges his greedy desires.

The other person is fond of speaking about calamities,
auspicious events, and unusual changes. He may say that a
Tathagata has appeared in the world at a certain place. He may
speak of catastrophic fires or wars, thus frightening people into
squandering their family wealth without reason.


This is a strange ghost that in its old age has become a
demon. It disturbs and confuses the good person. But when it
tires of doing so, it will leave the other person¡¦s body. Then both
the disciples and the teacher will get in trouble with the law.

[yuanfen]

Notes on Hendrik's posts:

let's get back to the middle circle which is saying Buddha Nature. since this is an abstract term a non-duality( am I use the correct term Joy?)

((YUP)-ultimate ontological non dualistic ((The Vedantists are not Buddhists and ergo dont have the sunyata but they do have non dualism as well. The sanskrit term is Advaita-hence advaita vedanta.I moved somewhat away from the vedanta towards the dharma some time ago. Not there yet.Have some karma to take care of in samsara while trying not to be an asura))

((You have a lot of vey good material. But for lay readers I hope that you can connect the concepts and influences with a time line or approximate time markers))

((The ancient Sino-Indian connections were extensive-both ways.
Some developments were prallel others influenced by one or the other. The TCMA model is independently Chinese- but the Indians
also had energy pathways (nadi-s) and even accupuncture points-
marmas- strike points.
If you look at Felix Mann's Revised edition on Acupuncture p 31-32
he has a brief and interesting discussion of the parallels between
Chinese and Indian acupuncture points-the art atrophied in India.
In holdings in the SriLankan National museum there are detailed diagrams of points on the Indian elephant that were used for the training/control of war elephants.None exists apparently for the African elephant-which has its differences in structure.For complex tricks in circus center rings they use Indian elephants more often.
Points were used for healing or hurting....
and in Indian martial arts as well including the fist arts(musti) and the grappling arts (kusthi). You can see a brief diagram of vajramusti(Lightning fist) strike points in Draeger's Asian Fighting Arts.
Yang btw in his chi gung book IMO makes a mistake in labelling abdominal breathing as Buddhist and reverse breathing as daoist.
Indian pranic drills included and still has both kinds of breathing...
ad they have martial implications as well....including fajing.

Some remainung intuition or points... I have always maintained that if one
lines up the chakras properly you not only have the erect yogic
postures-sitting or standing... but you also pretty well have wing chun's mother line or central axis.
The sino Indian connection was so extensive that there were lots of travellers- specially monks. I have a whole list of some known ones in one publication somewhere in my book filled mess of a home--not just Huen Tsang.
The Indians had once lost some sutras which were carried and translated into Chinese. The Indians had them retranslated into Sanskrit!
Enough wandering.
Gotta see Barrera fight the Filipnio featherweight tonight.
Only recently Barrera revealed that for several yaers he has had a plate in his head- the result of brain surgery several years ago to correcta genetic blood vessel problem of some kind. Now some states are requiring MRIs of boxers and the plate shows up.
Barrera had Prince Naseem's number several years ago-- he really is a thinking fighter and knows how to adjust. But the Filipino packs quite a wallop himself. Itwill be on HBO soon.

Cheers-from somewhere west of shaolin or is it east?
I have lots of writing ideas- just not enough time-end up doing wing chun. Perhaps with more discipline--- some day...

[Phenix]

Joy,

Thanks.
I sometimes hope I am better in English and better to doing explaination. To be real honest, it is very difficult to do translation. Unless we ask those who has attained the state and ask them to explain in our today's words.


In my view, E12P is just one of the system Enlightenment Monks' of the previous leave in the world for us. There must be many around the world. Since Boddhisatva or angels or God are not biased against any race but equal.



However, I keep Shurangama sutra very tighly close to understand what is going on and who can be trust when dealling with all these Mind/Body stuffs. That is the teaching of my shr fu Ven. Hsuan Hua and also the teaching of my Shr Gong Ven. Hsu Yun.

As it said, it is ok to not enligtent but do everything to avoid to fall into demonic state.