Brooklyn Monk Article

[Benny D]

Is the temple really THAT bad? In all of the terms he uses to describe I mean. He talks about how they scam him in so many ways and also how they are absolutely filthy. I understand why they may not want those photos to get out, because they would have every organization for public health down their necks. .. . or maybe they wouldn't. . . but anyways, I am totally shocked by that article. I had no idea it was THAT bad.

*edit* Which one was he at by the way?

[rik]

Actually I'm not surprised. In the mad rush to
re-invent tradtional Shaolin for profit this is all to be expected. See the articles below (my apologies for reposting them) but the trademark issue is all part of the big picture. On that note see more reactions to the attempt to trademark “shaolin wushu” in Canada http://www.shaolinwushu.com/articles I'll post the translations soon
r.


September 25, 2002
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200209/25/eng20020925_103851.shtml

May 04, 2003
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200305/04/eng20030504_116214.shtml

March 13, 2003
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200303/13/eng20030313_113247.shtml

[Songshan]

A reason why Shaolin is in a trademark battle. The fraudulent activity is going on right underneath their noses and in their own back yard.

I am curious to know what the authors martial arts background was before training there. At the end of his "training package" did he really believe he would be a "lay monk" and added to the lineage or what?? Would his skills show that he "graduated"???

[richard sloan]

it depends...

it's no walk in the park condition wise, if that's what you mean...if you have an idyllic vision of Shaolin Temple I can see how the article would be shocking.

To me, I think it was written too soon after the experience, but that is strictly an assumption on my part.

[GeneChing]

Like any sacred place, it's the surrounding locals who are corrupt. The temple has its problems, to be sure. Running a medieval temple in modern China is fraught with problems. But it's important to distinguish the private schools, run by private entrepenuers.

Hopefully, Antonio will post himself here - he's got more stuff in submission, like a piece about finding Kung Fu in Taiwan, which we are considering.

[UK MONK]

Why did they go to insane lengths to get a couple of photos. They were going to beat him up. A kung fu brother that they trained with for months just over some photos.

They are animals :( :eek:

[Tak]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Hopefully, Antonio will post himself here - he's got more stuff in submission, like a piece about finding Kung Fu in Taiwan, which we are considering. It would be great to see more of his work in the ezine, although hopefully all the content isn't as depressing.

[Brad]

Yeah, though his story was sad, I thought it was pretty well written.

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Mr. Brooklyn Monk Pt. II Author:

I am calling BS on many parts of your article. Yes, the conditions in Shao-Lin can be tough. Yes, you might be larger and older than the students. No fooking way that you could even think of taking on a whole room full of 6 young Shao-Lin students and older teachers.

It does make a cute story, though.

Anxiously awaiting your B-movie and syndicated television series, I remain,

Contemptuously yours,

dimmakseminar

PS: Bullying and intimidating persons in another country that are attempting to help you learn that for which you came seeking, confirms your lack of personal ethics and low character traits. Good luck on the book deal, though.

[norther practitioner]

:rolleyes: OK man..

do you really have anything to say though.. other than just bashing the article.

[GeneChing]

... Antonio secured his book deal. :cool:

[Brad]

Yes, you might be larger and older than the students. No fooking way that you could even think of taking on a whole room full of 6 young Shao-Lin students and older teachers.
I'd fight if they tried to forcebly take my photos too. But it didn't get too physical. I'd think if they'd actually tried to mug him and take his photos that way, it would've potentialy gotten them in quite a bit of trouble with the authorities if they found out.


PS: Bullying and intimidating persons in another country that are attempting to help you learn that for which you came seeking, confirms your lack of personal ethics and low character traits. Good luck on the book deal, though.
I'd say calling someone a liar anonymously without giving any actual edvidence other than one irrelevant arguement shows a pretty big lack of character and ethics.

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Mr. Brad:

Although I don't have appropriate time to recite the entire dissertation you likely would expect on ethics and personal decorum, I will say that mine is only an opinion, which I am posting on a bulletin board that is in fact utilized to discuss opinions about topics related to kung fu. My position is only to question that which is presented as fact, since we have not had the opportunity to hear both positions. I am not the author of a published article potentially libelling an entire group of persons that are a) 8000 miles away, and b) likely have no idea that they are in potentially being libelled. I did not recieve a $50 or so submission fee for my article, nor am I ever likely to make any money off my opinion, unless Mr. Gene Ching decides to begin paying the subscribers to his site, in which case, my post count would more likely resemble yours than my own.

And besides, as the most wise Banky Edwards once said "That's what the internet is for; slandering others anonymously." ;)

Innominately yours,

dimmakseminar

PS: Your own judgement of monks and cab drivers that you don't know, based on an article written by someone that you apparently don't know, has undeniable parallels to your questioning of me.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26657

[Brad]

My position is only to question that which is presented as fact, since we have not had the opportunity to hear both positions.
Well, you are more than welcome to follow up on the article and present the other side of the story if you feel so strongly ;) The FACT remains you've presented no edvidence or arguements to dispute his experiences yet use personal attacks against the author. If you were directing your attacks at the magazine I'd have no objections.


I am not the author of a published article potentially libelling
To show that it is libel I'm pretty sure you have prove that he made this stuff up, and you have provided zero reason to believe so.


I will say that mine is only an opinion, which I am posting on a bulletin board that is in fact utilized to discuss opinions about topics related to kung fu.
I never said that you weren't posting an opinion. Opinions are like *******s, everybody's got one ;)


unless Mr. Gene Ching decides to begin paying the subscribers to his site, in which case, my post count would more likely resemble yours than my own.
You know, you'd have more time to post and share opinions(and thus, have a higher post count) if you wouldn't waste so many words saying so little :D

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Mr. Brad:

You make excellent points! Libel can most effectively be defended by (in this case) the absent party. Given his position in the Shao-Lin community, perhaps the esteemed Mr. Gene Ching would be best qualified to ascertain the other side of the story in the interest of editorial objectivity.

Certainly you can choose maintain a closed mind in the matter, and choose to accept as fact everything that you read.

Thank you for the commentary on my diction and writing style. I prefer to spend 10 minutes perfecting 1 skill, as opposed to spending 1 minute withering each of 10.

Oppugningly yours,

dimmakseminar

[Brad]

PS: Your own judgement of monks and cab drivers that you don't know, based on an article written by someone that you apparently don't know, has undeniable parallels to your questioning of me.
Hardly. As written in the article, the cabbie and "monk"(not monks as you sugest) were obviously trying to scam this guy and it wasn't a good idea for him to go along with them. I wrote that post no different than I would if talking about a fictional piece. When commenting on characters actions in a story you have to speak as if the story was true. Though I did use the words "sounds like" to make it clear that I don't know 100% how true and acurate the story was.

[Brad]

Thank you for the commentary on my diction and writing style. I prefer to spend 10 minutes perfecting 1 skill, as opposed to spending 1 minute withering each of 10.
Why use 100 words to explain something that could easily be explained in 10? It only makes it more difficult to understand for those who may not be as skilled in the English language. This forum has many members who either speak English as a second language, or lack college level reading skills. I try my best to not use difficult words, when a simple word will get my point across more easily. Excessive wordiness only tends to agravate people in high traffic public discusion forums and make your point more difficult to understand(assuming they bother to read it in the first place) :p Writting style in a forum like this should be closer to that used in USA Today articles rather than that used in legal documents... BTW, you aren't a lawyer by chance? :D

[pazman]

when does dimmakseminar get his own column in kungfu magazine?

pleeeezzeee!!!

[Songshan]

I mean there should of been lots of red flags that should have been raised in the authors mind while the days were unfolding. If he stuck with his original plan and didn't listen to a cab driver things might have turned out different. As far as the living conditions, they are way below the standards we are use to. So you have to keep that in mind if you ever go to Shaolin. The article was shocking for me because some used the Temple itself which is sacred holy grounds for their scam.

The author did publish an article based on his experience at Shaolin. I did not really like reading about it due to the negative view it depicts towards Shaolin. It sort of reenforces all the martial artists who think Shaolin is fake already, but he has a right to express his views and opinions.

[GeneChing]

Like I really could separate you on a forum...:rolleyes:

As for Antonio's story, I beleive he is reporting his experience as honestly as he can. Certainly there is a personal bias in his writing, but all writers have a talent for embellishment - in fact, if your really good at it, it's your style.

To be honest, I've seen such sort of the things happen at Shaolin. In fact, I've seen much worse. I remember someone from my last trip (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=357) who arrived at Shaolin, got followed from the train station, got trapped into a contract by a small private school. When he realized his mistake, he tried to get out of it and was threatened - he was told in no uncertain terms that if they caught him training with anyone else, they' beat the crap out of him and his teachers. Of course, the poor guy was devasted. But it was part of the GAME, as John Greenhow puts it (he's also got a two-part Shaolin first-hand story (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=417) that we are running in conjunction with our Shaolin Special 2003 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=397) being on the newsstands). John's part-two will be up before Thanksgiving, along with a special piece by ex-monk Lipeng.

So here's a Shaolin test for you - what would you do? If you were that guy, with an entire private school who's got you on contract, got your money and is threatening you, what would you do? Another factor is that he was caucasian, so he could be easily found whereever he might go in the Shaolin area and that most private schools have about 200-500 students.

There's actually an easy solution. Can you get it? Can you penetrate the first chamber of Shaolin? I'll reveal the solution after a few guesses. JOHN GREENHOW - if you're reading this, don't give it away ;)

Keep your eye on our ezine (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/index.php) - it's free, it's exclusive, and it's worth sharing with your friends! ;)

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Mr. Gene Ching:

Thank you for your most persuasive arguments. You are quite the mediator, scholar, artist, gentleman and salesperson rolled into one! A true Renaissance Man! :D

Sincerely,

dimmakseminar

[MasterKiller]

There's actually an easy solution. Can you get it? Can you penetrate the first chamber of Shaolin? Suck it up and attend that school?

[Tak]

Or he could train on his own, so they couldn't catch him training with anyone else. Or he could join a larger school and rely on his new kung fu brothers to help him defend himself.

Of course neither one of these gets his money back from the first school.

I like MK's answer.

[Brad]

So here's a Shaolin test for you - what would you do? If you were that guy, with an entire private school who's got you on contract, got your money and is threatening you, what would you do? Another factor is that he was caucasian, so he could be easily found whereever he might go in the Shaolin area and that most private schools have about 200-500 students.
I'd probably just leave the area and let people know to avoid this school... maybe tell the authorities if they'll listen... but there's quality teachers elsewhere. Don't need to train at Shaolin to be Shaolin.

[herb ox]

I'm with MasterKiller...

Hardship makes for stronger gungfu. 'sides, I'd be to paranoid (just how I am) to leave the school... either way, after watching and practicing much, I feel it's not so much the style or who you're learning from, but how hard you practice and what you learn from enduring...

'course it's easy for me to say, comfortable in my work chair and all...

[Brad]

Yeah, it's easy for us to make decisions until we're actually in the situation ourselves, lol. I was scammed by a teacher once as a teen and looking back it seems so obvious what was happening :p

[pazman]

i would say not go alone, especially if its your first time there. i went alone this last august, but thankfully, i had things set up with people i could count on. one of the tuk-tuk drivers had tried to scam me by taking me to his friend's wushu school instead of the one i was going to. when i got there, he and his buddies tried to manhandle me into the school, but when i made it clear i was going to tip over his little tuk-tuk, they shaped up. usually, playing it cool is the best method in asian culture...most people are soooo friendly, to the point that they are little pushy. smiles and laughter go a long way to easing any misunderstandings. but....when its clearly a scam, and they are grabbing you, chinese and japanese cultures recognize a 'hot temper' and stay away.

[GeneChing]

pazman is the closest so far. He's obviously dealt more with training in Asia, being in Japan (and since you say tuk-tuk, I'll assume Thailand too.) But I think you all bring up a good point - it's hard to really put yourself in that situation. I mean imagine: You don't speak Chinese, the only people who speak English are a few other foreigners, like John Greenhow and me (John had just arrived too, so he wasn't any help and I was really busy with my own trip to do more than point him in a direction), you've only got a limited amount of cash, which you are carrying on you (some travellers checks too, but you have to go back to Zhengzhou to cash those) and it's your first trip, so you're deep in Chinese culture shock.

Anymore guesses? This is just the first chamber - there are 35 more to go at Shaolin. ;) I'll post the solution very soon.

dimmakseminar - Thanks for your kind words, but it's all of you who make the forum go. And this Shaolin forum is pretty well mannered all-in-all - we're all family here, right? It's much easier than the Wing Chun forum. ;)

[herb ox]

How about offering to "sell" the photos (only the inside of school pics) for the cash owed? Then politely on the way out the door...

(Probably getting further from the solution...)

Perhaps some Tao can help...

"when one eye is fixed upon the goal, it leaves only one good eye to find the way..."

[Songshan]

I would not go to Shaolin alone first of all. I would go with someone who has been there a few times and try to establish contacts before going. I would definitely make sure I would pick out which school, who and where I am going before making it over there and then stick with my plan unless someone close to me says its ok to do something else.

I would politely decline any other "forced suggestions" no matter how many times they ask. I have a soft spot in my heart and hate to see people in poverty conditions so I think I would slip them some cheap cash and bow with an omitofu for trying. If it all fails and the situation is escalating then it would be time to do a crazy drunken style form to show you mean business....hehehehe :D

[wall]

well, the article was indeed creating a very unappealing picture of Shaolin as a "tourist" destination even for the hard-core Martist, but I think that we should read between the lines.

The author was very unorganized, quite prepared to follow pushy indications of strangers, and most of all was doing it really rough and on the cheap.

I have 2 friends who have been to Shaolin, and I am currently planning my first trip, 2 weeks, at Easter 2004. Frankly with the CTIS support, 3-4 star Shaolin Hotel accomodation, South China Air flight to Z.Z. and then private car booked to the hotel ..... I don't think there will be too much dealing with mucus, monthly showers and dirty food. Tuition organized with friends teachers means knowing what you get, teaching wise, and who will give it to you, before even stepping on a plane.

The author went to a borderline third world location with barely enough budget to live like/with the locals: of course he'd then be faced with all the tipical scenarios like filth, scams for a few dollars, dirty toilets, no water, etc etc etc.

I think that as westerners we should realize that we are largely completely unprepared to deal with such conditions, and therefore either have the budget to pay for standards closer to what we are used to, or perhaps better stay home rather than live like sh!t, deal with predictable poverty-driven filth and hustles, and then be surprised / upset / harmed .....

I openly admit that given to my fortunate middle-class western life I could not stand nor deal with such conditions at all, so guess what .... I avoid them. Thus 2 weeks of Shaolin "luxury" rather than months of Shaolin "trauma".

Common sense goes a long way, and the author didn't display much IMO.

W

PS he's lucky not to have anything lifelong (see hepC or HIV) having had a quite probably unsterilized IV needle in a Chinese country "hospital"!

[BentMonk]

As has been said in previous posts, common sense goes a long way. It sounds to me like the author didn't research what he was getting himself into, and didn't realize what was going on until it was way too late. If you're going to any foreign country in which you are a serious minority, you are going to be perceived as an easy mark for inscrutable locals. If I planned to visit any foreign land, I would establish as strong a life line as possible. No way would I arrive having to place my trust solely in people I'd never met. I would also learn as much of the language as possible. As has also been said, it's easy for me to sit here and play "what if" from my comfy living room. Still, if I plan on jumping in the water I'm checking the depth and watching for sharks, no leaps of faith happening here.

[GeneChing]

Listen to me now and hear me later - if you're going to China, get all your Hep shots. It's just wise.

OK, here's the solution.

First, go to the PSB (Public Security Bureau - the cops). Tourism is a major industry for Shaolin and neighboring Dengfeng, so the cops will help you. It's about saving face. That school is breaking the law and the cops will address the issue. They take good care of foreigners at Shaolin, at least the earnest ones. Be patient, because it might take you a while to get an English speaker. If you check out the nice map I provided in the new Shaolin special, the PSB is clearly marked.

Second, go to CITS (China International Travel Service). This is a national organization that arranges tours for foreigners. Despite being national, the quality of service you get in different regions from CITS is very uneven. Some will outright rip you off. But the group in Dengfeng is fantastic. They are so helpful and friendly. Be patient, because it might take you a while to get an English speaker. Ask for my dear friend, Mr. Wang Yu Min, if he's available (he often tours with the monks - right now he's in Australia I think). He's the one who saved the ass of the guy we're talking about. If you check out the nice map I provided in the new Shaolin special, the CITS office is clearly marked.

Third and most important, transfer to a bigger school. There are 80 schools at Shaolin, so one down, 79 to go. If you ask people like John Greenhow, they move from school to school, working the best deal. For the most part, only the small schools resort to such strong arm tactics. The larger schools are much more reputable. A few even can provide you with a translator. Now, if you're a foreigner at any school, that's a lot of face for them. Some little school isn't going to go and challenge a larger school. Try Tagou, that school was at 13,000 last year. Do you think a 300 student school is gong to challenge a 13,000 student school over little old you? Hell no. A small nefarious school might try to intimidate you, a lone foreigner, but their not going to start tribal war, especially if they are outnumbered, not over you. If you check out the nice map I provided in the new Shaolin special, several of the larger and more reputable schools are clearly marked.

It's all in that Shaolin special. ;) And don't worry, my dear Shaolin kin, big brother Gene will hold your hand and get you through the first EASY chambers of Shaolin. After that, you're on your own. :eek:

[Tak]

Hey, I said number three!

Or he could join a larger school and rely on his new kung fu brothers to help him defend himself.

As for number one, I made the mistake of thinking the contract was legal and binding. Didn't even think of number two.

[MasterKiller]

Instead of running to the police, Gordon Lui would have just sucked it up and trained. :mad: ;)

[GeneChing]

See where that got him? Old gordon is now getting his butt kicked by Uma while doing a bad Kato impersonation. OK, ok,
'nuff respect to Gordon, I really enjoy his stuff.

Tak is in the door and ready to move on to the next chamber. As for the rest of you, back down to the river to get more buckets of water! :p

In all honesty, when that guy came up to me with his sad story, my first reaction was to say "you're ****ed" but I thought about it and sent him on to CITS. The rest was history. About a week later, he seemed happy as a clam, sporting a newly shaved bald pate, training his little heart out. :cool:

[johngreenhow]

Good answer, Gene.

I don't want to argue, and I mean absolutely no disrespect to Antonio or his martial arts ability (which is no doubt well above mine) but having read his article I'd like to comment.

Firstly, getting the ****s and not being able to walk for a couple of days cos of it is nothing to get scared by. I mean, come on, at any one time one of us was going through it. It's called the Shaolin Slim Fast. The IV always makes you feel better too.

DengFeng hospital might be grim, but the guys know what they're doing, use clean, new needles and are *very* used to treating kungfu students.

The kung fu brother thing deserves a comment too. Someone might be *called* your brother but that's not what it's about. I never really put much store in what I heard before I got to Shaolin, including this brother thing. Over enthusiastic movie fans, I thought. But having left my school and hearing that the Sifu continues to give a few of my training buddies some problems, I'm compelled to go out of my way to help.

Not because someone just told me they were my brothers, but because we've been through two months SARS quarantine together; because we've faced down a Shaolin Sifu together; because every ****ing day for 6 months we spent hours sweating it out with a common goal. If someone told me when I arrived that I was bound for life to a crazed French guy, an acrobatic Belgium and forty 16 yeard olds I'd have laughed. When I left Shaolin and was told "If you ever have trouble, call us. You've got family in Shaolin", I nearly ****ing cried. That's brothers.

Ok, that said, Antonio's article is accurate and tells it like it is. But it's only depressing because he left it at that. The Game, man, the Game...

[richard sloan]

my impression of the first read was that he should have let more time pass before he wrote it.

another year and he might write a totally different story.

[Songshan]

Iam sure its feast or famine there at Shaolin. 80 schools in a small village all based on Shaolin's reputation. I can see how some schools and sifus can be a little pushy for students. Their lively hood depends on it. However, I am not up on Chinese law but how is it that some of these schools continue to operate and be open after scams like that? Surely some people reported them to the police.

So what's become of Antonio Graceffo? Does he now have a negative view of Shaolin? Will he ever go back? What is his intention on writing this article?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by UK MONK
Why did they go to insane lengths to get a couple of photos. They were going to beat him up. A kung fu brother that they trained with for months just over some photos.

They are animals :( :eek:

No dude....they are freakin soldiers!!!!!!! Lets not lose perspective here! You have no idea..or maybe little idea of how much and how deep these people committ and sacrifice for what is ultimately selfless. Yes, these are the conditions, no water, no shower, little food, cramped sleeping, and up to 12hours training meditating and study daily...on going, and for some their ENTIRE LIVES! It is very different to life in western civilizations, and most westernerns could never fully comprehend exactly what that is like or what it takes in heart and spirit to deal with **** like that daily AND make it pleasurable, knowing full well that this is life and never expecting "reprieve" yet totally committed to living an extrelemly long life. You use what you've got, and if you haven't got ...well I guess you just don't. ;)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Tak
It would be great to see more of his work in the ezine, although hopefully all the content isn't as depressing.

you sure you dont mean enlightening????

[blooming lotus]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wall
[B]The author was very unorganized, quite prepared to follow pushy indications of strangers, and most of all was doing it really rough and on the cheap.

DUDE............................., you do realize that non chinese speaking foreigners pay two and three tmes as much as locals and unexpected costs could be many times what you expect?
------------------------------------------------
I openly admit that given to my fortunate middle-class western life I could not stand nor deal with such conditions at all, so guess what .... I avoid them. Thus 2 weeks of Shaolin "luxury" rather than months of Shaolin "trauma".

YOU COULD NOT NOT STAND NOR DEAL; WITH MR. IM SO SHAOLIN!?!? WHAT THE HELL PLANET ARE YOU ON??? DO YOU WANT TO LEARN TRADITIONAL SHAOLIN OR DONT YOU????

Common sense goes a long way, and the author didn't display much IMO.

WELL OK THEN :rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

... this has been one of my favorite threads of late. When I first read Antonio's article, I felt it touched a nerve. I had already accepted John's article at that time, for publication on the web concurrent with our Shaolin Special - sort of a cross promotion. But after seeing how both Antonio's and John's articles offered up some different and genuine perspectives, they stimulated a sort of dialog, which I hoped would result in a discussion like this on this forum. It's certainly more interesting that the old fake shaolin or shaolin-do threads. :rolleyes:

As for Antonio, he's still in CMA. I'll try to get him to post here. Meanwhile, I'd like to pick up on something that John is saying. A lot of people wonder why you'd go through such hell to train. Why can't you just train Shaolin anywhere? Well, you can train Shaolin anywhere. Anywhere. But there's something to be said for the process of training it at Shaolin Temple. It's the hardships. You don't get that as a tourist visiting for a week. You only get that by doing what John or Antonio did. You gotta get down and dirty. Now I'm not saying that this is the only road to Shaolin mastery at all. But it's a significant road, one that anyone of us can take, if we have what it takes. And like you'll glean from both Antonio's and John's stories, it's the razor's edge. You can just as easily get sliced as succeed.

Songshan - that's a good question coming from a cop. ;) Most of these sorts of situations are victimless crimes. As you've seen from the prior comments on this thread, a lot of people would just roll over to the pressure - and this is from people who are sitting at home (or at work :eek: ) comfortably reading the forum. That's not one iota of the kind of pressure that person had. No one here even thought of the police. In fact, when John and I encountered that individual, we didn't either. We thought - "dude, you ****ed up" - frankly if CITS hadn't intervened, he probably would have been stuck there. In the end, the money was returned, and that school left with a warning, probably not the first or the last. Those types of schools don't last long at Shaolin though - karma gets them in the end.

[SaMantis]

I like that he wrote it so soon after his experience. It's fresh and you can feel the raw emotions he experienced. It's almost impossible to capture that in-the-moment emotion a whole year later, even the worst parts would come out 'sanitized'.

I don't think I would have fared well in that situation, either. Long-distance hikes I took in Europe sometimes left me too exhausted to think straight. Difference is, there was a tourist office on every corner so I could go in and have a place to stay in 5 minutes.

Being exhausted & hungry & ill dramatically affects how you think & act. Even for very experienced travelers.

[Songshan]

Yes, no doubt this has been one of the interesting threads lately. I must say, regarding the living conditions, that I would be willing to give up all the modern luxury we have for a few weeks to experience Shaolin. I tip my hat for those who not only been there but those who go back time and time again. To train and live as they do there is not only a challenge but you reap the rewards in the end that no money can buy. :)

[Tak]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
you sure you dont mean enlightening???? I would say that enlightenment and depression are not mutually exclusive.

[GeneChing]

For most westerners, China has a huge culture shock factor. That really weighs in on everything, makes your really vulnerable, and is why neophytes should always travel with seasoned travellers. But that doesn't mean you should try to tackle Shaolin on your own. John, for example, after we had lunch, I knew he's was going to be alright. He told me of a few of his other trips and he really savored a somewhat exotic lunch that Mr. Wang took us both out to, so I knew he was 'seasoned' - what's more, I could tell he was open to the new experience. A lot of people react defensively to culture shock - they cling to their own culture - tresuring stuff like Coca cola, things they recognize. They there are the rest of us, who can't wait to try a can of Jackie Chan cola, and go out of our way to avoid stuff like western Coke. To each their own, I suppose.

Songshan, you'll get there, I daresay. And you'll have a fantastic time. ;)

[richard sloan]

an interesting question that was posed- do you need to suffer the hardships to train Shaolin?

perhaps I am muddling the concept, but that seemed to me what someone was postulating. And to a certain degree, I would say yes most definitely. Sure you can learn Shaolin anywhere, as Gene suggested, but to have the real flavor, that knowing look that gets passed from people who know to people who know when they meet, people who have 'it,' and don't be confused- I'm not talking about ego stroking here- I'm talking about the essence of Shaolin, that which gives flavor to all the movements both physical and mental, yeah I think you need to come through the trials. You need to be hardened by eating bitter. There's a difference. By being always cold, by facing hardships and training anyway. Suffering basically. One thing that blew my mind in Shaolin was every morning thousands of kids would get up and train in concrete rubble. I know precious few people who would do that.

a comparison I fancy is it's like lifting free weights compared to universals.

I see it all the time in Negril. People go down there and get upset with a lizard in their room. I'm like, man...if you only knew...

I kind of like that sort of thing- it strips away all the bullsh!t we've layered on to living and makes life visceral. I once worked layering on that bullsh!t so to me it is easy to see, but if you lack that perspective you think you're not living an illusion as someone's revenue stream.

"animals..."

I don't think so. I think you have to look at what they were protecting. You see, this guy was leaving. He had that option, whereas they have only that life, which he has imagery of that portrayed it as sh!t. And what he didn't get is, their lives don't end once he's gone. So he stuck to his principals, bully for him...but who knows what those actions have made manifest now and who can define what worth really lies in his sticking to principals.

I just think there are a lot of different ways to play this and it's not easy to judge it so quickly.

[GeneChing]

We just posted John Greenhow's part two (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=428). Some people have commented that they think Antonio wrote his piece too quickly - John worte his on the road in China and although it concludes with him leaving Shaolin, he went back. Where are you now, John?

You'll also find a piece by Former monk Zhang Lipeng (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=427). MOre grist for the mill. ;)

Anyway to address the 'do you have to go to Shaolin to train Shaolin? issue, you don't have to go, but it helps. I do think there is a point of safety where you're training in a stripmall school and going home to your nice cosy home, your hot meal and shower, a point where you might be too, shall I say suburbanized? It's not enough. It's worlds away from the Shaolin Temple experience. So I suppose that there are places of comfort where you might not be able to train Shaolin. Sort of like an icchantika in Chan - I could envision a state of such sensual comfort that you cannot progress. Man, I'd love to reach that state. Just kidding. And I don't mean this as a dig on stripmall schools - I train in a stripmall school now, right in between Cost Plus and Aaron Bros Art Store. My point is that it's all relative, all grey, but at some point, the grey is dark enough to call it black. And I might add that my own personal experiences at Shaolin make me treasure my strip mall school, with it's clean toilets and carpeting, good lighting and heating. It deepened the value of my practice there, and occassionally reminds me what a slacker I've become when it comes to Shaolin.

[Brooklyn Monk]

I finally figured out how to join the discussion.

[Brooklyn Monk]

Apparently my article surprised and shocked a lot of people. I grew up practicing martial arts since age 11. I started with Kung Fu and boxing, but gravitated more toward fighting at an early age. I am now 37 years old, and I have had nearly 2,000 matches either kicking, boxing, or both, on four continents. I don't claim to be an expert martial artist. But I am an authority about fighting.

I also feel I can comment on foreign cultures with some authority. I have lived abroad most of my adult life. I work as a full ime adventure travel author, and a key word search on my name would reveal any number of other adventures I had in China and elsewhere.

The forms I saw people doing at Shaolin were super human. I have never seen that kind of skill, not in Hon Kong, not Taiwan, not in the USA. In my book I said it was like living with the X-Men.

But as for fightin, they are light years behind us. The main reason being Shaolin is not a place to study fighting. Shaolin Kung Fu has nothing at all to do with fighting. The emphasis is on Biao Uen, (demonstration) and Tou Lu (forms) and the main priorities now are: getting tourist dollars, making money off the road show, and preparing for the 2008 Olympics. None of that involves fighting. Neither does being in the movies.

People play up the movie gods like they are real fighters. Every day, all I heard was Lee Shao Long, Chun Long, and Lee Lien Jay. Well, these gusy aren't fighters either. they are superior martial artists, who, when they have a stunt crew and Matrix special effects could beat up anyone. But in reality, they have probably never been in the ring, even once. And, a man like Bas Ruten or Frank Shamrock would kill them in an NHB fight.

At Shaolin I fought (sparred) about thirty times with the San Da team (kick boxing). Only the two instructors were able to beat me. The students couldn't. They were faster and more limber than me. They could kick higher. these are shaolin skills. But, they had never been hit with a five punch combination. They had never had an opponent drag them to the gound and mount them, pounding them into submission.

They had been taught that Shaolin martial art was invincible. They believed that they could actually kill a man with a single punch. it doesn't work that way in real life. If it did, the heavyweight champion would be Chinese. Miao Hai once did a shaolin punch so hard on me that it knocked me across the room and into the wall. I couldn't do that to someone. But what he had never been taught was that the fight doesnt end there. i got up, and beat the tar out of him. It takes them several minutes of meditation to throw that single punch. In real fightig there is no time for this.

When I was at Shaolin I met John Greenhorn at the internet cafe in Deng Feng and we had almost this exact discussion. It is recorded, word for word, in my book. We agreed that in Thailand people fight for money from age eight. In China they don't fight at all. It is that simple.

I stay away from the general martial arts community because I have trouble believing the smoke and mirrors. In taiwan I was the first foreigner ever on the Kung Fu team in Kaohsiung, the second largest city. My teammates in taiwan can all break boards with their hands, but they punch like a girl. In shaolin they could break bricks with their head. and yet when I did a head butt in a fight, they had never seen that before.

We, all of us, myself included, grew up dreaming that the Shaolin Temple was this special, holly place. I had a somewhat utopian view of the temple before I moved to taiwan. But I lived in Taiwan, studying Kung Fu, for nearly two years before going to shaolin. In that time I learned that true buddhism is very different from what happens at shaolin. the truest buddhists in taiwan often practice Tai Chi. but there isn't as much mix of hard style kung fu with buddhism. in China, religion was banned until just a few years go. Even now it is state controled. so you have to ask how religious these monks could possibly be if they have only been practicing a few years. most of the students weren't devout Buddhists either. They just wanted to learn kung fu, so they went through the motions of buddhism to fullfill a requirement.

The temple today is a way of making money. It is one of the most visited tourist attractions for domestic toursim in China.

A professinal fighting gym in the States is also a money making enterprise. But they admit that fact. I think my anger at shaolin was because I felt they were lying. They said that they were holly and special. But they were corrupt.

As for flithiness and dishonesty, this is well documented elsewhere. Henan is a sesspool. There was no running water and no showers. I have lived and worked in Guangdong and have written stoies in injiang. And, by far, Henan is the most pimitive place I have ever been. While I was at shaolin they demolished the village around the temple and installed the first flush toilets at the temple, they were even heated. But this was only in the tourist areas.

One reason why the shaolin myth is so hard to break is because there is a lot of faulty information out there. There aren't that many accounts, written by Westerners, of the actual temple. John is close enough that he is seeing the life in Deng Feng. so he has a good handle on things. But other, more positive accounts I have read were from people at Northern Shaolin Temple. Northern Shaolin Temple has nothing to do with Shaolin Temple. It is seveal hundred miles away. It is an artificial temple, opened about five years ago, and only caters to foreign students. It is owned by the chinese government, as a money making enterise, to bring in tourist dollars. yesterday i saw an account of someone claiming to be at shaolin. This person was actualy in the capitol of Henan, some four hours by bus, away from Shaolin.

People ask me if I would do it again. I say, without esitation, absolutely. It was an incredibel experience. Would I recommend it to others? I leave that up to others. As with most things, you will just have to go there, and see for yourself. I am going back to China in April. And will probably be sudying at another Temple in summer or fall of 2004. Now, I am off to Thailand, to live in a Muay Thai temple, and compare the eperiences of Taiwan, China, and Thailand.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Monk
I finally figured out how to join the discussion.

LOL:D

DUDE i TOTALLY DISAGGREE ON SO MANY POINTS HERE BUT NOW HAVE NO TIME. i WILL WRITE SOMETHING OUT AND GET BACVK TO YOU. BY THE WAY, IF THEY SUCKED SO SERIOUSLY AND YOU WERE HONOURABLE TO SHAOLIN, WHY DIDNT YOU USE THAT "ENLIGHTMENT" TO TEACH THEM YOUR FORMS? yOUU DO HAVE IT OVER THEM IN YEARS OF EXPERIENCE.....BUT YOU CANT DENY THESE CRAZY FEATS...ITS BEEN OFFICIALLY DOCUMENTED AND ITS WHAT PERPETUATES SHAOLIN AND HAS FOR A LONG TIME.

[Scythefall]

I'm not sure what to make of the article. My Sifu has said that the Shaolin Temple is a wushu school and has all but abandoned traditional training. The temple exercises and such taught to the monks by DaMo, from Antonio and John's accounts, appear to be non-existant. Where is the internal?

Antonio's take on their fighting has to be taken with a grain of salt, because Antonio is 37 and quite seasoned. No doubt he is facing young opponents and that makes a difference. The ability to think through a fight only comes with age and experience. When and if these students escape the confines of the temple and wushu teams, they can no doubt spread their wings.

To give hope, I do like the Shaolin Overseas Temple in New York as well as other monks and former monks that have taken up roots in the US. Like I've mentioned before, the recent Shaolin special issue was invaluable to a Shaolin student because so much basic understanding was set across. By not having the ulterior motive of breeding students to sell to a Wushu team or whatever, they bring back the traditional curriculum. I see them teaching the Muscle-Tendon Change and internal arts in their curriculums and that's something special. These are the things my Sifu tells us to look for in a kung fu school, so I wonder if, in fact, the Shaolin utopia isn't right here in the US. We just need the focus and the courage to endure it. Time and money would certainly help so as not to be jobless and homeless. :)

[Brooklyn Monk]

You've all brought out good points. please don't misuderstand me. One: I was extremely impressed with their wu su. they really could jump and twsit and do crazy stuff I could never do.

the internal is not there, however. and this i can say because i speak chinese and i was asking questions and looking. but it wasn't there. or, it wasn't theer for many. there was a very cool guy from mexico that had been studying budhism in the temple for years.

so, the buddhism is there. you can find it. but you have to look. it is separate from the kung fu. and in the temple hierarchy the kung fu monks are much more powerful than the buddhist monks. this is because kung fu brings in more money.

as for the fighting. you are right. i am much, much older than they were so i had more experience. but what they learn in the temple is only wu su. the closest they came to fighting training was kicking pads. but they didn't learn any ring craft, or strategy.

[Tak]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Anyway to address the 'do you have to go to Shaolin to train Shaolin? issue, you don't have to go, but it helps. I do think there is a point of safety where you're training in a stripmall school and going home to your nice cosy home, your hot meal and shower, a point where you might be too, shall I say suburbanized? It's not enough. It's worlds away from the Shaolin Temple experience. So I suppose that there are places of comfort where you might not be able to train Shaolin. Sort of like an icchantika in Chan - I could envision a state of such sensual comfort that you cannot progress. Man, I'd love to reach that state. Just kidding. And I don't mean this as a dig on stripmall schools - I train in a stripmall school now, right in between Cost Plus and Aaron Bros Art Store. My point is that it's all relative, all grey, but at some point, the grey is dark enough to call it black. And I might add that my own personal experiences at Shaolin make me treasure my strip mall school, with it's clean toilets and carpeting, good lighting and heating. It deepened the value of my practice there, and occassionally reminds me what a slacker I've become when it comes to Shaolin. [/B] It's nice to have the opportunity to escape the strip mall for a while. It will be several years before I could afford to visit China, assuming I will ever be able to do so. (And assuming I learn more mandarin than yi er san si, ko bu, bai bu, ...)

[rik]

Hi Brooklyn Monk,
Interesting post.

Here is my opinion.
Chinese Shaolin martial arts evolved over many centuries into a wholistic culture for dealing with violence and in of themselves are as much about combat as they are about health practice. This martial culture included traditional systems of preventive medicine and customs which are intimately bound to ethical and moral traditions. In spite what is being promoted, the present martial culture at Shaolin is not centuries old but less than two decades old. It is colored by the methodologies Mao’s vision over the past 50 years. . . and now also with the dark part of Western capitilism.


By putting the historical pieces together it is apparent that there has not been traditional training at Shaolin for close to a century.
Is Shaolin today traditional? Is it really about recovering and saving what little is left? Well it depends on what one calls tradition and even more on what one wants to believe. It reminds me of a story written in 1949, some of you might have read it, called "The Emperor's New Clothes." The PRC was one of the most bizarre, the largest, the best planned efforts to wipe out tradition in recorded history. In fact its a miracle that any traditional forms survived in China -which clearly some did. The traditional forms practiced at Shaolin were complied from research done during the past 15 odd years. The first efforts to reintroduce martial arts at Shaolin began sometime after 1982 and up to the late 80’s PRC Shaolin was largely made up of modern wushu. IMO the tradition there today is at best a collection of traditional martial arts forms from a variety of sources with a ‘best guess’ at what could have been traditional Shaolin. But that is where tradition stops at today’s Shaolin. The rest, including the recruiting, the massive schools, the shows, approach to training etc. etc. are all a modern experiment no different than The Great Leap Forward. The agenda is not just about money as some point out, it is very much about hegemony. We will wait and see what happens with this great-cultural-leap-forwards.

r.

[Scythefall]

Antonio,

Tell us a little more detail about the training you did while you were there? What were the exercises you did? What forms did you get to learn? I'm really curious about more than just the overall conditions you trained in. Give us some details when you get a chance.

Thanks,
Paul

[crazymaddrunk]

By putting the historical pieces together it is apparent that there has not been traditional training at Shaolin for close to a century.

I agree 100% with the above post (by rik).

That's why if you want to learn Shaolin kung fu and KNOW how to fight with it, you go with Shaolin-do....


:D

[rik]

crazymaddrunk I think you misunderstand me. I think there is traditional martial arts at Shaolin. However with all the material that is written
about Shaolin little is done on the training methodologies, history and background of the individual schools. It would be useful to
have something more than "there are fraudulent schools" and there are "really traditional"
schools. I think a bit more transparency
would go a long way.

[Songshan]

It was nice to see that you posted to back up your Shaolin experience despite it's like getting thrown to the wolves who are going to flame you and your story. So it's nice to have you on board. With that being said lets get down to business :D

Since you gave a background on yourself let me give you a little of mine so you can have a little insight about me. I am and have been a police officer for 8 years. All 8 years were on street patrol (what we call a tire biter) and thats where I am currently. 8 years is not a lot compared to the average 10-15 year veteran but what I am trying to say is that I have been around the block a few times. As a police officer I too can be considered a "expert witness" when it comes to various things. This can include crimes, drugs, weapons, even possibly fighting. Yes, I had a martial arts background before I started studying Shaolin. I studied Karate for most of my teenage years. I was a martial arts enthusiast. I must say that throughout the years of studying martial arts I bounced from school to school mainly because I wasn't satisfied with the instructor and what I was learning. All this changed when I read an article in Gene's magazine about two Shaolin monks (Shi Xing Hao and Shi De Shan) who immigrated to Houston and opened a Shaolin School here. I dropped everything I was doing and drove to the school with the magazine in hand. The rest is history. Shi De Shan is very good in San Da so you may want to look him up if you ever come to Houston.

This is where I disagree with you. I have been studying with Shi Xing Hao for almost 4 years now. In my years of studying, Yes I learned the 18 basic postures, some wushu, some traditional forms even some wushu forms but most important of all I learned fighting techqniques. Shi Xing Hao in turn has taught me how to fight and educated me about Shaolin. Sifu has showed me a lot and given me a lot. It's one of my reasons for wanting to become a disciple to give something back (but thats another story). So I disagree with you that Shaolin is all wushu and demos. I have personally seen and experienced this. I didn't want to learn how to fight just to learn. To be quite honest with you I don't really like to fight. For me learning how to fight decided whether or not I am going home at the end of my shift at times. In my line of work learning how to fight decides if you live or die.

You have some points in your post, but I feel you just scratched the surface of Shaolin. It takes lots of practice and dedication
to truly reap the rewards and to understand what it's all about.
In just six months of training how much did you really intend to learn? Shaolin isn't for everybody but it is all that you make it out to be. What you put into it is what you get out of it. I am sorry but you sound like someone who went to Shaolin as a skeptic in the first place.

[Scythefall]

A lot of what you said, mirrors my thoughts on the matter, Songshan. The monks that have immigrated to the US teach a spectacular curriculum. They teach traditional and wushu. They also teach the internal. The Three Treasures are taught by these monks. From what Antonio says, he didn't get that in China. He basically ended up in a training camp for wushu demo teams. I don't see him as skeptical, considering he said he was looking for the internal and he could not find it.

I think Gene is the most correct. It really depends on how you prepare for your trip. I'm sure if you contact a trainer there and let them know what you would like to learn, they can arrange to have you spend time learning Shaolin wushu and then transfer you over to an internal class at some point, I'm sure.

Personally, I"m curious as to what Antonio did learn.

[fanzi]

At the temple in China it probably depends on who you get to coach you there. Some focus more on forms and there's probably some badass fighters there too. But there is way too much hype there and here in the U.S.. Shaolin has a great history, and great martial arts and masters have been spread all across China, not just at the temple. Don't anyone assume that the best fighters / martial artists are necessarily at Shaolin Temple. And about Shaolin being not just about fighting but about discpline and hardwork--that's all martial arts, and sports, medical school and the gong fu of many aspects of life--nothing special to Shaolin. And as for the Monks in the U.S. teaching the real deal without the desire for capital gain, have you met Shi Yan Ming? He pumps his students for cash, doesn't know forms applications, and barely any weapons. Yet,if you ask him what styles he knows he says "every style."

Shaolin has some good masters, but please, don't believe the hype.

fanzi

[David Jamieson]

K first of all, I would like to say that I think that Gene's Shaolin Do i fake and not from the real source, secondly I'd like to say... Bwahahahaha. :D

OK, all that aside, I think one of the main points that is getting touched here is in regards to "hardship".

Hardship and suffering is the forge of greatness my fellow posters. To spend some time in the fire will temper you a whole lot more than someone who has no time in the fire.

In western society, we find that often we must create hardship to discover its benefits. IE: the runner who trains in inclement weather, the Kungfu guy who trains in the cold, and so on. Hardship has more benefits than not and you will gain from taking that route I 100% agree. I just don't believe there is an easy path to getting good at anything.

Easy path= finger paint, hardship path=sistine chapel

Antonio, I enjoyed your article despite it's edgy look at what hardship stacked upon hardship does to the monks and people in and around the shaolin temple.

Still, I would have followed Gene's advice and looked to the folk masters in the area to go beyond the wushu stuff. Ultimately, I prefer the unsterilized look at Shaolin as opposed to the antiseptic group tour perspective :D

Cheers

[Songshan]

posted by fanzi

Don't anyone assume that the best fighters / martial artists are necessarily at Shaolin Temple. And about Shaolin being not just about fighting but about discpline and hardwork--that's all martial arts, and sports, medical school and the gong fu of many aspects of life--nothing special to Shaolin. And as for the Monks in the U.S. teaching the real deal without the desire for capital gain, have you met Shi Yan Ming? He pumps his students for cash, doesn't know forms applications, and barely any weapons. Yet,if you ask him what styles he knows he says "every style."

Yes there are good fighters/martial artists in other places other than Shaolin, thats a good point. What drew me to Shaolin is the history, the monks, what Shaolin stands for and of course the martial arts. It was the whole package not just one and those are my reasons for sticking with it. Like I said, It's not for everybody.

I have never personally met Shi Yan Ming, but I would really like to one day (all the monks in NY really). I would love to spend a few training days with his school. Having been around monks myself, I think you mis understood his "every style" comment. I have an idea what he means. I am not really sure why you think he doesn't know forms or weapons. Shi Yang Ming was at Shaolin the same time Shi Guolin, Shi Xing Hao and a lot of the other monks were. They all have knowledge of each other and I am sure trained together at some point. Fanzi, I have seen lots of people come into Shi Xing Hao's school here in Houston and demand him to demonstrate what he knows before they join. It's almost like they test him to see if he worthy enough to teach them kung fu which is ridiculous. The prospective student usually leaves in utter dissapointment because he declines. Some even leave after just a few weeks of training because they literally demand to learn the "secrets" to Shaolin instead of taking the slow progressive steps. So you have to keep that in mind.

[crazymaddrunk]

K, Second of all I'd like to say that I don't think Canadians are real people, Bwahahahaha. :D

[Salacious Crumb]

K, third of all, I don't consider online personas who lie about knowing Hung Gar and being NY Cops when really they live in San Antonio (very close to me, no less) and take Shaolin-Do to be real people, either. Bwahahahahahahah :D

[GeneChing]

To quote the Koran "Did you suppose that you would go to Paradise untouched by the suffering which was endured by those before you? Affliction and adversity befell them..." - From the Cow

A lot of people have no real idea what a spiritual martial practice is, much less how that integrates in today's modern world. There are still chambers to penetrate, still tests to pass before you can enter, but those tests aren't so pre-meditated, like the 36 chambers. They are totally different because we live in a different world. Grandmaster's Suxi's pagoda expresses that very well - to be Zen about it all, Shaolin is a timeless anachronism.

[blooming lotus]

GOOD POINT GENE!

Especially when you consider that the guy who created martial arts in china (according the sutas), acknowledged internal art and spiritualism and absolutely essential and crucial part of Cma - so really, if your not doing this...I dont care what you say , YOU ARE NOT...i SAY NOT!!!!! PRACTICING KUNG FU!!!!!!!! BUT A WATERED DOWN 1/2 VERSION AND ADMIT IT!!! YOUR CLUELESS!!!!!


however, the good news is that enlightenment and growth has place for all :D

ps..hate me 2x...really...If you need to, I can deal with it:eek:

[Songshan]

Iam not a NY cop. I live in Houston and work in a suburb of Houston if you are referring to me. Let's get the facts straight.

[GeneChing]

I had a great time visiting with your Shifu last weekend. But he called me down on all of this - wanted to know why we published it if it reflects badly on Shaolin. Ever have to answer to a Shaolin monk that way? I blame you.

Actually, it was really fantastic to see him again. When he and my Shifu were reunited after 6 years apart, that was a great moment to witness.

[Scythefall]

Originally posted by GeneChing
I had a great time visiting with your Shifu last weekend. But he called me down on all of this - wanted to know why we published it if it reflects badly on Shaolin. Ever have to answer to a Shaolin monk that way? I blame you.


Well, hopefully you explained to him that it was posted as a buyer beware. Personally, I would not have known where to start to visit Shaolin Temple were it not for this thread, fueled by Antonio's post. A couple of you have posted invaluable information to help us Westerners in getting decent lodging and on how to pick a school should we ever go.

Which is good. I got a fortune cookie today at Panda Express. It says "You will enjoy a nice trip to Asia"

Why was my first thought of Antonio's article?!

[richard sloan]

I was being pumped for cash...boy do I feel dumb.

Without knowing with who and where you trained Anthony, I just have a few comments.

I liked your article for the most part. I could see the end coming almost a mile away though.

Most of Shaolin today is like colonial williamsburgh. But if you look hard enough, you can get the real deal and not the capitalistic snowjob you got put through. Ch'an is definitely alive and well there, if you look to the older generations still there. I know of people who got taken, sort of like you, for a bit of a ride, and then there are those that have the experience you were probably hoping to get. I'm sure Gene could have steered you in the right direction, and set you up nicely with the right people, as could I, or Dr. Russel of russbo.

On our last trip back to Shaolin, some of the 'monks' could not respond to any questions regarding buddhism or Ch'an, asked of them by a native mandarin speaker. When Cash Pumping Every Style Knowin and Every Style Teachin' Mack Daddy Shifu Shi Yan Ming saw who we were talking to, after he stooped down to pick up all the cash that had dropped out of his pockets, he just chuckled, then ducked away to have some tea with his master Shi Yong Chen. And when we asked him why they were so clueless, he told us they used to be janitors and must have gotten a promotion. They clock in, and they clock out. Yong Chen seemed to follow what we were talking about and he looked sad.

Anyway, Antonio, you mention sparring the San Da team. Which team? From the school you trained at? From Tagou? From the Temple? There are lots of points your article raises that this information would answer. To me, it is important to make the distinction that you were training at just one school, and there's like 80 at least, and they all claim some kind of association with Shaolin, legitimate or not. Did you spar any actual monks? That punch that sent you back, do you think it was done with intent to kill? What if he hit your head. He was just a coach.

I've held bags for Shi Yan Ming, as well as various other sifus of different styles from Muay Thai to self defense guys. I have no doubt he could drop me if he wanted with a shot to my head or body. I nearly crumpled from a sidekick through a bag. I've never been hit by anything like what he throws, and I can tell he's definitely witholding, for which I am greatful. He can make the kung fu movie dub sound just by moving his arm for crissakes, especially after he scoops up all the money he pumps me for. (sorry- I can be a sarcastic *******) I think there is a pretty big difference between monk and disciple and student and you were in the low to mid level of what Shaolin can offer. Anyway, from what you wrote, I'm making the assumption you fought mostly students, and with your fighting experience I can see you getting the best of them. You did mention only the coaches could beat you. But if you were put into a fighting pool with Shaolin's best, I think there would be different outcomes. From the article, it sounds like you got sucked into a mediocre wushu school, which is probably a little too common there now.

[Brooklyn Monk]

A lot of people mentioned Yan Ming, I've never met him, but at shaolin they all knew who he was. and he was really a monk. most of the schools are not actually run by monks. and most of the students are not monks, so beware of peolle wearing orange robes. anyone can buy the robe and make a photo.

If your sifu in america teaches you to fight, that is wonderful. I wasn't commenting on your sifu. i was comenting on the temple.

as for the san da team at Tago, I clearly agree, had i gone to shaolin and lived and trained with a serious san da team, i probably would have had a much different opinion of their fighting ability.

what i was trying to express, and this is the thing that has often made it difficult for me to practice arts outside of strictly fighting, is this:

I am now living at Waat Maa Tang, a Muay Thai monastery, on the Thailand/Myanmar border. we wake up in the morning and we fight. we go to bed at night, and we fight. if they say someone is good at muay thai, they mean he is a good fighter. there is almost nothing else to the muay thai. and they all fight, for money, once a month. no smoke and mirrors. no chi gong, death touch, flying monkey, snake form. it's just fighting.

we also have to attend prayers at least twice a day and study buddhism. and this was not the case at the temple.

when people talk about the Sifu here, they respect him because he won like fifty professional fights. there is nothing mysterious here. you train and you fight.

[Scythefall]

Hey Antonio! Welcome back!

I do want to say it is good that you do study Buddhism and have prayer. Prayer and just sitting makes a difference in your forms and your fighting. And you are certainly right, there is nothing else to Muay Thai except fighting. That's why we have a Muay Thai student who had to leave a prominent school. He was shot by accident and Muay Thai had nothing for him. He took damage to his lower body and was now unfit for the style. He's in our Shaolin school studying Tai Chi and Chi Gung..the smoke and mirrors..and he's healing. He goes to kung fu class from time to time and does well. Whatever aches and pains he gathers from the exertion will fade away because his body is in that state of healing.

You'll eventually get to where you'll seek that out. Right now, i'm glad to hear you're in a place you enjoy and you definitely get it. I still look forward to hearing more about your daily exercise at Shaolin, but until then, train hard and keep us posted :)

[Salacious Crumb]

Originally posted by Songshan
Iam not a NY cop. I live in Houston and work in a suburb of Houston if you are referring to me. Let's get the facts straight. I was referring to crazymadpunk.

[Lao Long]

Hi all!!!

I will try to write what i am really thinking. Please forgive my poor English.

1st. Shaolin is NOT A WUSHU SCHOOL.
2nd. It is very difficult for a foreigner to be IN the Temple
3rd. Shaolin has nothing to do with fighting.
4th. when we speak about Shaolin Training in some Wushu school in Dengfeng with a Shaolin sign on it, WE DON’T MEAN SHAOLIN TEMPLE
5th. Try to understand that Shaolin has nothing to do with the schools.
6th. If you have any problem in Shaolin you shouldn’t go to the police but to The Shaolin Temple’s monk Office, which is in Dengfeng city and ask for their help.
7th. If you are trying to learn the Shaolin arts just to compare it with other styles, I think it is wrong from the beginning.
8th. Last 5 years, so many Shaolin Great Masters in Dengfeng city are appeared. The reality is far from our eyes.
9th. I get angry with anyone who uses Shaolin as a (bring me more students and money)
10th There are some real Masters in Shaolin area but unfortunately they are very few.
11th Let us all think about Shaolin knowledge. You think it is possible to learn Shaolin in some trips, with some seminars and not with total dedication?

I just wish to share my opinion with you.

And as for your Shaolin MASTER dear Mr. Brooklyn Monk, I don’t think he is a Shaolin Master.

[BentMonk]

LL - While I respect your right to an oppinion, and appreciate some of the points made in your post, you assertion that "Shaolin has nothing to do with fighting" seems absurd. The monks of the Shaolin Temple did not gain their fierce reputation as fighters by sitting around meditating all day. While it is true that the monks prefered not to fight, they certainly would if necessary. I've discussed this before, and I'll mention it here. IMO martial artists are not pacifists. Here's an article that says it better than I could. www.themartialist.com/pacifism.htm
I think this applies to all fighting arts, not just Shaolin. This is all just my two cents. Treat it accordingly. Peace.

[MasterKiller]

If Shaolin has nothing to do with fighting, then why and how did the Boxer rebellion occur? What did Shaolin Temple have to do with the Boxer Rebellion?:confused:

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHING/BOXER.HTM

[BentMonk]

My Boxer Rebellion reference was unclear. I've read and heard that many of the Fists Of Righteous Harmony group were Shaolin warriors. I didn't mean to imply that Shaolin was directly responsible. That's what happens when I do too many things at once. My bad. Thanks MK.

[GeneChing]

As for my discussion with Shaolin Monk Shi Xinghao about Antonio's article, I'm exaggerating the issue a bit for dramatic impact. Shi Xinghao is a dear friend, very friendly and playful in casual conversation. But he can turn it on in an instant. Like a lightswitch, he can become this intense, intimidating master. He casually asked if I remembered Songshan, which of course I did, then he said he had heard about this article and hit me with that glare of his - those eyes of his locked on my center - and I thought "uh oh." But we talked about why we published it and he understood.

So why did we publish it? Actually, we've been discussing it a bit on a thread on the main forum (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=26800&pagenumber=2). Mostly to open this dialog here. Also because, despite it's negativity towards Shaolin Temple, it's a good read. I think one interesting aspcet of this whole story is that despite Antonio's difficult situation, he is still considering going back. That's key to understanding Shaolin.

[Songshan]

Sorry Gene!!!! :D :D :D

I had to admit I was a little shocked and puzzled when the article
first hit the net. I did discuss the article with Shi Xing Hao during a lunch meal after class one day. We kinda just shrugged it off but he told me a personal story about what had happened to him one time in a similar situation.

I am still a little dissapointed that the article was put out by the author but he does have a right to express his view or opinions about his own personal experiences.

[GeneChing]

If you're disappointed, imagine how Antonio felt. Antonio's article addresses a very real problem at Shaolin - the tourist trap factor. We would be remiss in our reporting of Shaolin without exposing some of this. In Antonio's case, here was an experienced martial artist with a fair command of mandarin, and he still fell victim to exploitation. Imagine what it's like for those less prepared. I've met some young people who have journeyed all the way to Shaolin based on some website they have read, only to be taken for the chumps they are. I mean really, would you even go out on a date with some girl you met on a website chat room? It's probably some guy. So would you travel all they way around the world based on a website? There are people who do. They expect to be met at the train station by some 'representative' of the temple, only to be thrown to the wolves.

Antonio's article serves as a caveat - if you're going to go to Shaolin, be prepared. There are many obstacles before you get to the temple, and many more after. But the journey can be worthwhile, if you go with that knowledge.

[Songshan]

Yes I agree with you Gene. Ok let me clarify a bit on dissapointment for me. I was dissappionted because of the way the article was presented by Antonio. Yes, it is good that we are warned of these kind of schools and scams that take place. The information was good it was just how it was presented. I felt like we were just reading journal entrys from Antonio about his experience. There was no real introduction and there was no real ending. We didn't read about what or how Antonio felt. We could come to our own conclusions based on what we read but it wasn't very clear. The article never really said what the author's goal was or what he was expecting. There were no after thoughts or what he was trying to accomplish. So because of this, it just looked like an anti Shaolin article. I don't recall reading the name of the school that pulled this off so we can cross the name off a list if someone ever visits Shaolin. Thats all I meant by saying that.

[richard sloan]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Monk

...now living at Waat Maa Tang...we wake up in the morning and we fight. we go to bed at night, and we fight.


Never heard of this 'bed fighting'...what's that like? Do you use those wood slab 'pillows' heh heh heh? Are there 'rounds'...oh this could be a rich vein...

[GeneChing]

ss: Both Antonio's (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=411) and John's (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=417) articles were ripped straight from their travel logs, that's for sure. Both are also first submissions. Now I know John personally. We didn't train together, but we shared a meal or two and talked a lot when he first got to Shaolin. I've only interacted with Antonio over the net, but I've read other stuff by him and find him to be a refreshing voice - brooklyn honesty perhaps. It's worthy to note that all three of us were at Shaolin at more or less the same time (here's my account of that trip (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=357) - not just a travel log). If you compare our three stories, we all saw a different Shaolin. That's key in understanding the nature of Shaolin. It can be a mirror, or in the case of the 6th patriarch, no mirror for dust.

rs: Oh don't go there.
Btw, we missed your shifu over thankgiving at russbo's. It was quite a gathering.

[richard sloan]

yeah it was too bad we couldn't get out there, something came up at the last minute. As it is, all these guys pretty much fly by the seat of their pants as you know, doesn't take much to throw something off kilter.

You probably got some heavy material. Not often you get all those cats in one place.

Good news about Wan Heng too, which I thought you might like to hear- had his visa extended, he is allowed to stay at the Vienna Temple and doesn't have to go back to China, which was a relief.

[Brooklyn Monk]

This is specifically to Richard Sloan,

Please let me appologize for implying that we fought in bed. I meant that all of our practice relates to fighting.

[Brooklyn Monk]

This is directed at Gene or to anyone who has knowledge of the history of martial arts.

I discovered something very interesting this week at my Temple. Muay Thai has forms. but even more interesting half the forms look exactly like Kung Fu.

The specific form my team mates were doing was a Shaolin exercise I had learned in taiwan.

You probably know this one. You squat into horse stance, arms held straight out, figers open, then you make a fist, using all of your energy and strength. Inhale as you draw the fist in. Turn the fist over, shoot the hand back out while exhaling. you do this front, side, and top, over and over. it builds up Chi and makes you sweat.

I am curious how this form/exercise found its way to Thailand. I am in teh north, where the language is about 25% Chinese, but I don't think that is the answer. I think it goes way back in history.

If anyone knows about this, please let me know.

[Scythefall]

Hey Antonio,

That's a version of Muscle-Tendon Change more common in Southern china. An example of how it works is you sink your horse stance or get into a more Chi Gung stance with your toes facing inward..you inhale and draw your fists back, then, using dynamic tension you slowly punch forward. When you reach the end of the punch, you continue tension and exhaling as you force the hand up, down, left, and right. You'll do it with fists punching forward, downward, upward, and at a few different angles such as both fists up next to your ears.

Another way we do it, is without the four directions, we keep our hands in a Southern fist, which is basically a palm strike but the index finger is pointing upward. As we inhale, the entire body relaxes. As we exhale, we force the entire body to become tense as we push our hands outward..all the time sinking the horse stance. Repeat several times, then do the same thing pushing the hands out to the side. Then upwards, then downward, and so on.

We focus on keeping the entire body tense but especially the dantien (stomach) because that's the source of your power. It's really good for muscular endurance and building up force in your body.

Lastly, our school practices the "White Eyebrow" Muscle Tendon Exercises which is basically a chain form of the MTC, but it's more flowing and easier to get through as your pre-Golden Bell workout:)

Sorry I don't know the history beyond that, but it sounds like you're getting some kick ass training. Can't wait to hear a full report.

[WushuSpear]

Hello

This article sparked some thought and I'd like to post some of my humble observations.

Brooklan Monk Wrote:
The forms I saw people doing at Shaolin were super human. I have never seen that kind of skill, not in Hon Kong, not Taiwan, not in the USA. In my book I said it was like living with the X-Men.

My reply:
PRC China's forms are years ahead of anything. I suspect this has to do with the popularity of wushu sport and the cross over of training methods that happens. They're faster and more expolsive than anything I've ever seen elsewhere. Plus they train ten time harder and longer.

Brooklan Monk wrote:
But as for fightin, they are light years behind us. The main reason being Shaolin is not a place to study fighting. Shaolin Kung Fu has nothing at all to do with fighting. The emphasis is on Biao Uen, (demonstration) and Tou Lu (forms) and the main priorities now are: getting tourist dollars, making money off the road show, and preparing for the 2008 Olympics. None of that involves fighting. Neither does being in the movies.

My reply:
Here I must disagree. Sanda/ sanshou is one of the most effective ring arts currently. China are simply years ahead of any other country in terms of sanda. Sanda has proven itself with good results against Mauy thai. You don't doubt it's fighting skills right? Mauy thai, like sanda, doesn't have any ground fighting but that doesn't diminish it's effectiveness does it? China's sanda team has killed the Japanese, Koreans and Americans convincingly over the last 5 years. There was an event in China were the US sent a team to take on China. They lost 4 nill. There's no contest. I was at the world champs in Macao and everyone saw the difference in skills. The only team that consistantly gave China a good run was Russia.

Brooklan Monk wrote:
At Shaolin I fought (sparred) about thirty times with the San Da team (kick boxing). Only the two instructors were able to beat me. The students couldn't. They were faster and more limber than me. They could kick higher. these are shaolin skills. But, they had never been hit with a five punch combination. They had never had an opponent drag them to the gound and mount them, pounding them into submission.

My reply:
You can't compare the levels of one private school with a few hunderd students a say they can't fight. Go to Tagou and then come back. The difference is like night and day. It's like me going to a small gym in the US and beating their instructors and saying Americans can't fight. fight he best and then your statement has more credibility. Hell, you can't mount and stuff in Mauy Thai so why is it an issue with SANDA?

Brooklan Monk wrote:
When I was at Shaolin I met John Greenhorn at the internet cafe in Deng Feng and we had almost this exact discussion. It is recorded, word for word, in my book. We agreed that in Thailand people fight for money from age eight. In China they don't fight at all. It is that simple.

My reply:
Look at the lastest results of China vs Thailand.

Brooklan Monk wrote:
The temple today is a way of making money. It is one of the most visited tourist attractions for domestic toursim in China.

My reply:
It's a sad fact of modern day Shaolin which I hope the abbot will eventually rectify.

I'll comend you on a thought prevoking article and wish you the best in Thailand.

WushuSpear

[richard sloan]

the abbot won't rectify his money making any time soon, trust me on that. It's obviously way too important to him. It certainly comes in way before traditions in most cases, for example.

[GeneChing]

Muay Thai actually descends from an older martial arts system that has weapons too. If memory serves, that was Krabi Krabong. When I trained in Muay Thai in Bangkok, I was really searching for this art, since my personal interest is more into weapon systems and I'm not a kick boxer. All the Muay Thai guys didn't seem to think much of it in, in fact they seemed to look down on it in a self centered sort of way - saying that only dacners did it anymore and if I really wanted to learn that, I'd have to go north. Well, I was headed south, so thus ended my research into it. I did see a tourist demo of it, but tourist stuff is seldom that impressive (as we've been discussing here). My understanding is that ancient Thai arts worked a lot like Philipine arts - you start with weapons then move back to empty hand. Thai's began with long lancees atop elephants, then went to a long handled sword, akin to a burmese dha or a one-handed pudao, then to muay thai. Interestingly engouh, I've been working with Prof. Shahar (a leading Shaolin researcher that I mentioned in our Shaolin Special 2003 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=397)) and so far, he's found that the evidence in the literature supports the same thing in Shaolin - they may have begun with staff, then moved to empty hand, at least in terms of taolu. I'm probably presumtpious in discussing this since we've are working to validate this idea and it's pretty tough going.

[Brooklyn Monk]

Wushu Spear

Your comments were the best of anyone, other than Gene, that I have read. and, I respect your opinion.

If I do go back to shaolin, I will probably do just as you said, and study only san da, and at a much bigger school. for some reason i have a mental predjudice against Tago. I actually dont know why I feel this way, as it is probably the best school. they teach everythiing, and even have a competitive Tae Kwan Do team. for all i know they ahve a wrestling or judo team.

I appreciate your input.

[Brooklyn Monk]

Gene,

Thanks for what you said about the history of Muay Thai.

with some arts, like tae Kwan Do, yuo can see directly, the relationship with say Northern Shaolin, and all those high kicks. Bu

As best as I have been able to figure out, you are absolutely right, Muay Thai developed out of this Krabi Kabot (spelling). In the temple schools tehy still teach teh weapons, along with the empty hand fighting.

interesting taht you mentioned Kali, because the sword techniques for Muay thai looked very similar to kali. they looked nothing like Shaolin.

i think there is a conection between thai silat, thai krabi kabot, philipine kali and escrima, indonesian bando, and the malaysian arts. and this all goes very far back.

but my qiestion is, can these arets all be traced back to the temple if we go back far enough?

[Brooklyn Monk]

Scythefall,


thanks for teh information.

At shaolin, and in Taiwan, when we dropped into horse stance, we simply dropped into it. but in Gunagdong and Hong Kong, they did this thing where they first pressed teh knees together, then inched the feet out at right angles to the body, eventually dropping into horse stance. I saw this in teh movie "Dragon, the bruce Lee Story. " if movies are to be believed, i think this is part of wing ching or maybe a southern style.

is this the case?

[richard sloan]

you didn't like my bed fighting comment?

sheeesh.

[MasterKiller]

is this the case? I've seen Hung Gar players do the same thing.

[GeneChing]

Looking at the styles of the Philipines, Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia is a huge can of worms. Huge. China is tough enough with its secular folk styles, but when you look at the migration between peoples in the South Asian regions and try to make connections, it's just a mess. Too much cross traffic to say anything meaningful. You might be able to look at a distinct lineage and draw connections, but that's about it.

What I find interesting personally is a weird little bias in CMA about these styles. They are often thought of as distant cousins by many Western CMA people, while the Korean and Japanese stuff is shunned. For example, we could publish an article on Indonesian Kun Tao or Vietnamese Hong Gia and get a lot of positive feedback. But a TKD article would send our readership into conniptions. Go figure.

As for Taguo and TKD, a lot of the big schools near Shaolin offer TKD. In fact, I discussed this in our 2003 Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=397) (which I haven't plugged enough on these threads of late). Many PRC martial artists realize that they can only go so far in Sanshou - as far as China really - so they opt for TKD since it's better established as an international game being Olympic and all. This in itself it a point about Wushu going into the Beijing Olympics that a lot of people miss.

As for that knee-toe sinking into horse stance, I've seen it a lot with the southern styles.

[norther practitioner]

I've seen Northern people do a similar thing to show someone how wide to go out for there horse stance.

[GeneChing]

True, we do the same thing in BSL, but that came through the south so it could be attributed to "southern accent" perhaps...

[Scythefall]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Monk
Scythefall,


thanks for teh information.

At shaolin, and in Taiwan, when we dropped into horse stance, we simply dropped into it. but in Gunagdong and Hong Kong, they did this thing where they first pressed teh knees together, then inched the feet out at right angles to the body, eventually dropping into horse stance. I saw this in teh movie "Dragon, the bruce Lee Story. " if movies are to be believed, i think this is part of wing ching or maybe a southern style.

is this the case?

That's actually a very old tradition going back to DaMo's Muscle-Tendon Change so it should be common in any Shaolin style. You stand with your feet together and raise your hands up in front of you with your palms facing to the sky, you clench your hands into fists and pull back, chambering the fists at your sides. Then you pivot on your heals so your toes are out(45 degree angle), then you pivot on your heels from there and your stance widens as your heel points outward still..then you pivot on your heels so your toes face outward again and then pivot just slightly on your toes and your feet will face forward, you sink your weight and this will be your proper horse stance.

It's symbolic of drawing energy from heaven and pulling it back into the abdomen (dantien), after which you root yourself to the earth by sinking into the horse stance.

[Scythefall]

Just to elaborate..the Muscle-Tendon Change has you do the similar drawing of heaven into the dantien, then you go into a stance that looks very similar to someone sitting on a stool. You pivot on your heels so your toes face outward. Then you pivot on your toes so your heel face outward. Then you sink, pushing your knees together.

Your legs will be incredibly tight. Many Chi Gung exercises require this stance, as does the "White Eyebrow" version of Muscle-Tendon Change. From this stance, you can practice incredibly intense dynamic tension exercises and build muscular endurance throughout the body VERY quickly. Something about the strength of the legs in this stance..the tightness..the awareness of them, makes for more effective exercise. I think it is because the necessity of Muscle Tendon exercises is that the entire body be tense. It's much easier to tense the upper body than lower, so the stance actually helps keep the pressure on.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Scythefall


That's actually a very old tradition going back to DaMo's Muscle-Tendon Change so it should be common in any Shaolin style. You stand with your feet together and raise your hands up in front of you with your palms facing to the sky, you clench your hands into fists and pull back, chambering the fists at your sides. Then you pivot on your heals so your toes are out(45 degree angle), then you pivot on your heels from there and your stance widens as your heel points outward still..then you pivot on your heels so your toes face outward again and then pivot just slightly on your toes and your feet will face forward, you sink your weight and this will be your proper horse stance.

It's symbolic of drawing energy from heaven and pulling it back into the abdomen (dantien), after which you root yourself to the earth by sinking into the horse stance.

There's an "exercise" I've been shown which sounds similar to this. We go about it in the same manner as describe above, accept we keep our hands at our waists. We pivot from a feet-together stance into almost every stance in Isshinryu, with the exception of zenkutsu, cross (crane), and seiunchin.

[Vash]

Also, I've seen a few texts on the Muscle-Sinew Change Classic. Would the exercises therein be beneficial to someone of a non-CMA? Perhaps an OMA?

After I'm recovered, I intend to start out my training slowly, incorporating the Xingyi Nei Gung into my regular regimen, and am thinking the Classic would make an excellent addition.

Peace.

[GeneChing]

Since muscle tendon change is attributed as one of the original sets fo Bodhidharma, there are many versions. If memory serves, the Songshan Shaolin version (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/pr-gs001.html), currently practiced at the temple today, does not do the heel-toe-heel-toe drop into horse. I can't remember for sure, some one please correct me if I'm mistaken here. Now that doesn't invalidate other versions, it's just different. Additionally, I should add that there are variations within the temple itself, but most will map on to the 12 positions documented in some old Shaolin texts.

I worked that form for a while after I learned it, but let it go to the ravages of not havening enough time in my daily schedule to complete it all. It's a good one though, and I'd recomend it as a general health regimen or a martial exercise for just about anyone.

[Scythefall]

Vash,

Yeah, we do exercises like you describe as well. I think any intensive stance training is going to have a lot of obvious similarities to MTC. The stepping out into a horsestance in that manner is probably to ensure that you are not accidently standing on the outside edges of your feet, which I can catch myself doing if we're moving fast.

I can certainly see where constant stance work is necessary in the type of martial art you do. Now, MTC is not part of the regular kung fu class where I go. We cover parts in Kung Fu class, but generally the monk exercises are taught outside of that because not everyone is interesting in doing such exercise.

Nei Kung is the overall art that Golden Bell/Iron Shirt training falls under. The basics of Golden Bell is to practice sets of Chi Gung, followed by Muscle Tendon Change, Chi focusing rituals and massaging, hanging weights, then the striking drills which follow the path of your meridians. Then you work with your chi a little more. It's not as lengthy as it sounds..about 45 minutes, but you have to skip the chi focusing and weight hanging if you are not practicing with celebacy. It can affect your cyatic nerve eventually. Sifu said it can take a long time(years) before you realize the sudden release of packed chi is hurting you, but once you do, it's too late and you'll be keeping an acupuncturist in business trying to get the pain to stop. May be a wive's tale but who wants to risk it eh?

[Scythefall]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Since muscle tendon change is attributed as one of the original sets fo Bodhidharma, there are many versions. If memory serves, the Songshan Shaolin version (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/pr-gs001.html), currently practiced at the temple today, does not do the heel-toe-heel-toe drop into horse. I can't remember for sure, some one please correct me if I'm mistaken here. Now that doesn't invalidate other versions, it's just different. Additionally, I should add that there are variations within the temple itself, but most will map on to the 12 positions documented in some old Shaolin texts.

I worked that form for a while after I learned it, but let it go to the ravages of not havening enough time in my daily schedule to complete it all. It's a good one though, and I'd recomend it as a general health regimen or a martial exercise for just about anyone.

Yeah, the 12 moves is called I Chin Ching. My Sifu prefers the "White-Eyebrow" version because it is a chain form and works just as good, but is infinitely easier to remember. I wish I could post it in such a way that it makes sense because I know everyone here would have a use for it. We also do a variation of Eight Sections of Brocade which is called Silk Weavers. I love that chain form but I can't remember it for more than 2 minutes after we go through it in Chi Gung class..lol:)

As far as the video you provided a link to..I'd certainly take anything Shi Guolin is teaching to heart. I've seen demonstrations of just how iron he is. I think the one that is closer to the Classic is the video called: Bodhidharma Xi Sui Jing/ Tendon-Transformation and Marrow-Purification Exercise. This is a Nei Kung exercise and the one Shi Guolin gives the most credit for his rather potent abilities. He said it was passed to him as a folk technique before he went to temple, if I remember correctly.

Again, I've not seen the videos but they are on the wish list! If I get them, I'll post a review/comparison on the forum.

[GeneChing]

....Interestingly enough, he attributes much of his Iron Body skill to Yijinjing. He discussed it in an article he wrote in Chinese and Gigi and I translated back in our Mar Apr 2003 issue. (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf200115.html)

[richard sloan]

interesting- the Yi Jin Jing we practice is 13 moves.

Supposed to be practiced 2 times a day.

[Scythefall]

Originally posted by GeneChing
....Interestingly enough, he attributes much of his Iron Body skill to Yijinjing. He discussed it in an article he wrote in Chinese and Gigi and I translated back in our Mar Apr 2003 issue. (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf200115.html)

Yeah, he says to do both, but of Xi Sui Jing, Guolin says "It is said that Xi Sui Jing purges delusion and attachment from the mind and internal pollutants from the body, progressing us toward internal peace and external strength. When mastered, it transforms the flesh and blood body into an unassailable state like rock and iron." That's in the article in that magazine.

By the way, if any of you don't have that magazine, it's great. Master Tu and Shi Guolin have some remarkable things to teach. I'm constantly finding myself in awe of the excellent quality we see out of this magazine.

[Brooklyn Monk]

Gene,
yuo said that you could take articles about kun Tao or Hong Gia.

What about Taiwanese Twe So? I would love to see someone publish an article about that.

[GeneChing]

rs - Interesting. Here's a Yinjinjing poster by Shi Deqian (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/8511.html) that also has 12. The 12 are pretty standard - here are the lyrics from Shaolin Kung-Fu (1992 Henan Art - the one that features Shi Yanming and Shi Guolin prominently - with Abbot Yongxin on the facing page for the Yijinjing!)
1.2.3. Weitou presenting pole (part 1, 2, 3),
4. Picking up star
5. Withdrawing cattle tail
6. Spreading wings
7. Pulling out sword
8. Three sections falling
9. Black dragon snatching
10. Hungry tiger seizing food
11. Bowing
12. Erecting tail?
What's your 13th move?

sf - Thanks for your endorsement. That "Hard Qigong" issue was a fun one.

bm - We consider Taiwan as part of China, maybe not politically, but certainly in terms of CMA. In fact, we've been running a special series called the Treasures of Taiwan this year and our publisher is there doing research right now.

[LNBright]

Hello all,

I'm new to this forum, and have to admit, after reading through this entire thread, my head is still reeling from trying to take it all in at one sitting. :) However, I really have enjoyed it thoroughly.

I am a neophyte into seriously (more or less :)) studying the martial arts. I've only yet dabbled at it over the past twenty years. It's something I've wanted to do since I started back in that first "self-defense" class when I was a kid. Since then, there's been a semester of Isshinryu here, a couple of years as a fencer there, being a grunt going through the USMC's LINE program in boot camp, etc. All along, though, the rest of life kept me from being able to seriously study, be it school, kids, work, hobbies, and so on n' so forth. Now, with life *finally* being a bit more stable, I've jumped in and am beginning to really learn something (let me emphasize that "beginning to" there, lol).

While reading through this thread, reading the associated articles, etc., I began to come up with some questions (and, in an attempt to be honest, I should say that I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, too).

It's neat what you can find with Google....
[I suppose I should caution that we should recognize that these are newspaper articles, and from personal experience I know how something that you say can be easily mis-quoted or misunderstood given that any newspaper writer cannot be an expert in all fields that they encounter, whereas a writer for a magazine should (hopefully) be knowledgable in their magazine's subject. :) ]

In regards to the Brooklyn Monk's background, I found a newspaper article of an interview with him at http://www.starhq.com/html/localnews/0903/091103911.html which provided a bit of information regarding his previous training before going to Shaolin. Looking further, then, I also found another article regarding his previous school here: http://www.oakridger.com/stories/061199/stt_0611990079.html

I, for one, am a person that strives to see the "whole picture" philosophy of life that I believe the martial arts tries to incorporate. While some may disagree, I believe that it is possible to remove the Buddhism from those particular styles of martial arts and insert Christianity in its stead. Furthermore, I think that, perhaps, this particular school may be successful because of the wholeness of recognizing the inner self in addition to the physical skills needed in fighting.

One thing I noted according to the article, is that the style taught is a kung-fu boxing style along with the aikido / judo component added to it. (Maybe chin-na, perhaps?)

Would anyone here care to critique the prospects of a generic student (not specifically our Brooklyn Monk) from this school going to Shaolin? Or to any other martial arts school?

Or, would you, BM, care to review your own training prior to attending school at Shaolin? What were your strengths, or weaknesses, in your previous experiences? What made it easier for you, or harder for you?


-L

(PS: I've my reasons for asking, but telling why up front may skew the responses, so, I'll have a reply later with additional commentary... Thx...)

[GeneChing]

This is actually really tricky. You can remove Buddhism perhaps, but you can't really remove Chan. First of all, coming from a neophyte Christian perspective, you probably aren't aware of the distinction yet. Chan is a the Chinese attempt to say 'dhyana' (zen is the Japanese attempt). Dhyana is not a religion, it's a practice. It means meditation. Chan/zen evolved from Buddhism and is a form of Buddhism, but if you study Chan, you can essentially take the 'buddha' out. Well, sort of. Buddha just means 'awakened one', so it's a concept more than it is a historic individual (although, there was a historic individual, of course.) But meditation alone, bare bones zen if you will, does not necessitate buddhist iconography. This is why you can really be any religion, and still be zen. Or chan. Or dhyana. It's just a practice, not a belief system necessarily. When defined as such, you cannot remove Chan from Shaolin because it's the practice and that's the very essence of it all.

Confused? Welcome to Chan.

[LNBright]

Actually, I think you pegged what I was trying to say....

As you said,
This is why you can really be any religion, and still be zen
Without delving into any particular religion's dogma, I think I would be safe in saying (for this postulation) that there's an underlying goal of any religion to have a deeper understanding of harmony of all entities within the universe.

Given the nature of Buddhism, perhaps I shouldn't have said "removed" it. But, I don't think that you have to be commited to a Buddhist ideal over a Christian ideology in order to be able to crasp that underlying "chan/zen"....


I've observed other systems, such as the Taekwondo that my son studies, or Kenpo that's also taught there, or Isshinryu, or most any other martial art taught today throughout the US. Most of the schools don't have a religious component, given this country's "separation of church and state" mentality. Not that that's bad! I don't want to suggest that every martial art school out there should impose their particularly associated religion into their doctrine. However, I'm suspecting that, when a school can combine the inner religious component, as an additional focusing tool for the "chen/zen", to accompany the physical side of the art, then I think that that particular school may exhibit an additional passion for its art, and thus provides a synergy for itself with which it can excel further than it could without the religion accompanying it. In essence, the religion-facet provides a catalyst that furthers the intensity.



coming from a neophyte Christian perspective
I suppose I should clarify a bit here: while I call myself a neophyte in the sense I'm only now "getting down to business" as far as forms, techniques, skills, etc., of learning a particular system, I am not just now forming my philisophical understanding of the martial arts (that is NOT to say that I'm not always learning more and tuning my viewpoint, always reviewing and revising :) ). In retrospect, I've always been taking two things that seem at odds and harmonizing them.

As a non-martial art example: I'm a geologist. Yet, some other Christians have problems with someone that can find a harmony between the Bible and evolution. Yes, I believe the Bible but yes, humans are products of evolution on this 4.5-billion-year-old planet. Now back to MA...

I suppose, being a product of, or, at best-case severely influenced by, our society, there's this mental image of the Hollywood martial artist as a tough-guy who can overcome any adversity. Again, a residual effect of Marine boot-camp, you have this Esprit de Corps of the strength of the person to be able to, um, be a commando. Let's step closer to CMA, and take Bruce Lee in the Chinese Connection as an example. He walks into the Japanese's dojo, and kicks butt in order to, from his perspective, "save face" from the previous insult (let's not mention that that action had severe reprocusions).

However, when you shed that persona and trappings, and look at the seen part of the art, you see the physical, the ability to handily control your adversaries. What was missing from the "big screen" in many cases is the underlying love of peace, which is the true goal of having a warrior in the first place, right? No one loves peace more than the soldier. I knew when I was an infantry grunt, I was more than willing to be sent to do my job, yet that doesn't mean that I *really* wanted to go to war. On the contrary, I was wanting to help my family, my country, be able to remain at peace the way I, too, wanted to remain at peace.

I suppose there is this underlying dichotomy of the true martial artist: a strong sense of duty to physical training of martial techniques of controlling an adversary, yet an inner desire for the peaceful resolution.
Oh, I'm realistic, there are plenty of folks who I am sure are competent with martial techniques who aren't looking for that peaceful rest, who really are more interested in furthering their means through intimidation, mercenary work, being the bully. There are those who are blood-thirsty, who want to go to war and rack up a body count, who have good combat fighting skills. But are they "true" martial artists?
Or, maybe more central to my original question, what about those who study a martial art system, yet aren't coupling it to their own dogma? (be it Buddhism or Christianity or Islam or whatever your particular choice may be). What about those who keep the two parts separate? Those to whom their martial art is more akin to their sport? That was the original jist of my pondering....
Do those who take a more casual approach to their martial studies end up with an underlying lack of essential drive that would be present in those who integrate it throughout their psyche?

Do you follow what I think? Or am I seeming to babble? :)


-Les

[Scythefall]

I get where you're coming from, Les. Is a martial artist crippled if the spiritual aspect is left out? I don't think so, entirely. I tend to become very aggressive if I don't spend time with meditation and spiritual values. It's my choice to be humanitarian..to strive to be Lohan and I've found Chan and certain Buddhist prayers make me feel like a more complete person.

It's come up in other threads though, and I can tell you that a fighter who has found spirituality versus a fighter who trains for the sake of training are on even ground martial arts wise. But when they get old and the martial arts aren't as easy, or if they were to both become injured to where training is lost, the one who hasn't adopted spirituality into his martial arts lifestyle may find himself feeling very empty. Or he may feel that he enjoyed what he had while he had it and now he's content to grow old and die. It was a discipline and he enjoyed what he accomplished. Each person has their own feelings on the subject.

And you know what? there are some people that are just content to not have martial arts, or music, or spirituality, or any sort of self-expression or development. They've done their school..they've done their job..and now they're happy to get a date and eventually get married and have a family. I can't really call it tricky like Gene does, because there are so many levels people operate on. You can't figure out people's motivations. I spent nearly 2 years of my life playing a video game (Everquest) and I was in heaven. So the question is always going to be about you. We are blessed that all the past and present masters made contributed to such a broad spectrum of arts and disciplines to make up Shaolin or Eishin-Ryu and so on. Just get in it and see how you feel.

[GeneChing]

...not enough practice.

You bring up some good points, eternal questions really, stuff that all martial artists should tackle at some time in their pursuit. But it's getting kinda heady. Just practice and see what comes of it. Have faith. Practice, like meditation, or even prayer, needs to be recited to have real meaning. By definition, it must be practiced. All the philosophizing in the world isn't worth anything with out that basic starting point.

IMO, the spiritual level is what it's all about. If I was capable of just teaching spirit, without having to use martial arts as my platform, I'd just do that. But I'm not preacher, and my work comes from my practice. It doesn't really matter what your spiritual practice is (well, maybe something reactionary like satanism wouldn't be good, literally) but I feel that is a deep part of the practice. It's what carries you to a divine height. But you can never stop to compare your spiritual path to that of others. Then you lose your way. Just practice.

[LNBright]

In my first post I mentioned that I was partially playing Devil's Advocate... not in the sense that I was trying to defend something with which I disagreed, but instead I wanted to see what others' thoughts were, if they were akin to my line of thinking or if I was off base, without initially hanging myself out on the line to dry. Glad to see I wasn't too far off the mark, I think.... :)

As I said previously, I had a desire to pursue martial arts which was further fueled by a bit of introduction to Isshinryu. Circumstances prevented me as a child from continuing then. While in high school I decided to follow in my father's footsteps and go to Parris Island. A friend at school suggested that I attend his martial arts school, as the instructor was a Vietnam vet and the workout would be well-suited to "whipping me into shape" so that I would be better prepared to face the Drill Instructors once I arrived in South Carolina. What I discovered was amazing.

The school is the same one that our Buddhist Monk first attended in Blountville. He and I graduated from the same high school, with me being at least a few years behind him. I spent about a year there at the fighting school, right up until I took the bus ride to become a Marine.

I can easily ramble, so, let me abreviate my story a bit. After getting out of the Corps, I earned a BS, then moved on to one grad school, and after the MS I moved again and worked a year towards a PhD (finally, fiscal reality set in when faced with a few more years of grad school expenses... time to get a real job).

While an undergrad, as mentioned in another thread, I fenced for a few years, which is a really fun non-asian martial-art-turned-sport. Along with more exposure to Isshinryu, and visiting lots of other martial art schools, I couldn't find a place that clicked with me the way the ol' place did back home. And, time just wasn't readily available anyway....

After setting on just the MS and not further pursuing a PhD at that time, we moved back to the area to begin to seek stable jobs and to settle down wherever we ended up landing. With time, we both have now become established here. The arrival of our third child kept our time wrapped up until this past year, when she was old enough to not need as much full-time attention as she had at first.

So, I've now gladly returned to the place where it started 14 years ago. I've been back for not quite a year, but, I'm finding it different. Not that the school is different, not in the slightest.... I am different. Before, I was concentrating on getting ready for the military, whereas now, I'm finally learning the art, the way I wanted to....

The school is, as you can read about it, an interesting place, which would be unconventional to many. No uniforms are usuallyrequired; most nights t-shirts and sweats and running shoes are the attire. The styles present are slightly varied: the predominant form is presented as kickboxing, but both kung fu and aikido are strongly present. Sifu has combined these different systems with others from his background. I believe it to be a very effective combination.

You are right, though, Gene, I spent too many years thinking through all of this philosophy while I wasn't here where I could actually study it. Eagerly, I'm now back, bouncing off the mat, refining my kicking, toning parts of me that have long forgotten what it was like to *really* work, trying to get my basics beatem into place before I succumb to "middle age".... (oh, that's cruel of me to say, but, I do have a daughter about to turn 14.... :) )

Okay, I'll shut up, and save my "Marine's perspective on Martial Arts" for some other time...... :)


'Night, all....


-Leslie

[LNBright]

PS: Scythefall, didn't mean to slight your reply....


You're absolutely right, that's the same reason why so many different denominations exist with Christianity alone, not to mention all of the other religions other than Christianity that are out there, too.... :)




-L

[blooming lotus]

LNB

I just wanted to express my concuuurrence with what you've recently posted. I am also pursuing a phd in ch'an and am about 20 yrs into physical training, 12 ish into cma (sporadically) .

I held back from posting not only because my access was playing up (;)) but because I also wanted to see how people were responding. I find your like - mindedness refreshing. Welcome to the forum :D

If gene finds this to be getting too heady...someones gotta give that guy a holiday. If you've noticed the quality of the last several months of articles ( knowing the tie and yijing required for such research and reporting) add that to moderating duty, family coittents, work related travel and hmm hmm a tiicking clock....

seriously Geneching..thnx for putting in...it's evolving us all
;)

ps..have yourself a kitkat

[GeneChing]

...and that kitkat.

My point, and I do have one, is that when discussing spirituality and martial arts, everyone's road is different. Some don't need a spiritual element and can do just fine. Others demand it. But if we're making some sort of philosophical inquiry about spirituality, that's stopping to compare our own practice to others, and that is the road to ego, not self-actualization. The only way any of us can know where our road leads is to follow it. And the only way to follow the warrior's road, is through practice.

[LNBright]

Originally posted by GeneChing
But if we're making some sort of philosophical inquiry about spirituality, that's stopping to compare our own practice to others, and that is the road to ego, not self-actualization. The only way any of us can know where our road leads is to follow it. And the only way to follow the warrior's road, is through practice.


Exceptional point there, Gene. You are absolutely correct, it would be extremely easy at this point to go to far down that road. There is a bit of human nature involved, though, to compare what you are doing against others' actions, to see how you measure up. The fact is, what's good for the goose may not be good for the gander. I may need some component included that you may not. And so, comparison against others isn't what you need, just comparison against yourself over time, to see how you yourself grow.


My apprehension at even bringing up the topic in the first place was that I didn't want to appear like someone standing on a soapbox on a street corner.... this isn't the place for any such thing, and I'm glad to see that it could stay that way. Not everyone is of the same faith, though we have a common interest in the Shaolin MA. Funny how different starting points end up crossing the same paths on our journeys. Hmmm..........


Blooming Lotus,

Thank you for the welcome. I now intend to sit back a little and soak in what I can, and see how what little I might be able to contribute might be of use to someone....


So, what kind of kit-kat, the US kind or the Canadian kind? :)




-L

[GeneChing]

... I do think this is a worthy discussion. Otherwise I wouldn't participate. But when the posts get too long, well, they're too long. That's what I mean by too heady. It's the nature of Chan, especially warrior Chan, to be minimal, to apply Occum's razor at every opportunity.


What's the difference between a US and Canadian kit kat? Is this like Canadian bacon and back bacon?

[LNBright]

LOL....

Well, I'm known for being long-winded..... I'll strive for a more concise posting style in the future... I'll have to admit, it's been nice to be able to discuss some of these things with people who also think about such.... I've been pondering the like for over a decade, and most people with whom I normally associate with "just don't get the martial arts"...... Sigh.... Another reason I'm glad to be back in the ol' school....

+++++++++++++

Since 1970, the Kit-Kats in the US are made by Hershey.

If you go to Canada (and Europe too), the Kit-Kats are made by Nestle. The logo on the non-US version places the name inside of an oval, along with other appearance differences.

The big difference is that the Nestle chocolate is a bit darker, not as sweet, as the Hersey version. The wafers in the bars are a little different, too.

The Kit Kat was originally English, and they sold out the rights to Nestle, except for the US, which went to Hersey....

I would think that Nestle version is closer to the original, but I have to say, I'm a Hershey chocolate fan myself...

Don't need it, tho'..... so, I try to only indulge at holidays..... like now! :)



-Leslie

[LNBright]

PS:

BTW..... it's refreshing to see Occam's referred to outside of the scientific circles.... it applies to so many different things so very well.... :)




-L

[Scythefall]

Originally posted by GeneChing
...and that kitkat.

My point, and I do have one, is that when discussing spirituality and martial arts, everyone's road is different. Some don't need a spiritual element and can do just fine. Others demand it. But if we're making some sort of philosophical inquiry about spirituality, that's stopping to compare our own practice to others, and that is the road to ego, not self-actualization. The only way any of us can know where our road leads is to follow it. And the only way to follow the warrior's road, is through practice.

Yeah, I do take notice of other people's paths, but I try not to pass judgment. My experiences are based on anger management and learning that I don't have to react to pushed buttons. Expressing emotion is a choice. Chan/Zen is the only thing I've found that teaches detachment of that sort. I've met others who started Zen for pain management..others who just liked the philosophy.

All roads lead to the top of the mountain. Something like that..heh:)

[Songshan]

LNBright, I think you should for now just concentrate on your training after you decide which style your gonna train in. Thinking about the Chan and or meditation theories before you start training can confuse you and discourage you. It will come in time for some it comes soon others longer. It's really not a "degree" that you can earn in four years. It could take you several years or longer. I myself don't have a full understanding grasp on it yet but my sifu is breaking it up for me to abosrb. Best of luck.

[GeneChing]

In my warped scientific/buddhist mind, occum's razor and the sword of manjushri are one and the same.

[Roc Doc]

ahhhhhhhhhhh...
and what a sword that is!
to be able to slice the veils of ignorance
~doc

[Songshan]

For the sake of starting a new thread on the same subject....it appears that the "Brooklyn Monk's" story pt 1 is being told in the latest issue of Black Belt magazine. Okay, so he told his story to Shaolin students here, now he's telling it to the karate guys. I am starting to think there is more to this than just telling about "his experiences".

[GeneChing]

...I'm eager to read Antonio's part two in that series... ;)

[Songshan]

Well I am guessing it's gonna end like what we read here in the e-zine. Strangely enough Black Belt published a "Kung Fu" article. I was expecting it to come out in the Inside Kung Fu mag or something else. :(

[GeneChing]

...as I was once. I wrote for BB, IKF and plenty of others. I think Antonio has a fresh voice - he can actually write which is rare in MA ;) It's just one reason why I chose to publish his articles. We keep up an email correspondance, and he's been keeping busy, training in Thailand and such. I wish him luck and look forward to his future submissions. We have some more of his stuff in the queue - we just need to close out some details. As for his part 2 in BB, there's some suspense there, yes? You might be able to impress your friends by predicting the ending now. Just another demonstration of how KFM readers are ahead of the game :cool:

[GeneChing]

You'll find another piece by our resident Brooklyn Monk in BB this month. What's more, you'll fine a new exclusive piece by Antonio on our latest e-zine update (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=558) - free access - just click and read. We've added an e-zine index by author (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/TOC/index.php) so if you want to check out any of Antonio's work here - for FREE - just click and read. Enjoy!