Dots on Monk's heads (Yuanfen)?

[Phil Redmond]

I have been wondering what the 9? dots on the heads of the Shaolin Monks represented for years. I was hoping that you would know.
Phil

[yuanfen]

Phil- Firstly-I dont know. Hendrik might. But-Chinese (and Indian)numerology were important markers of seeking, organizing and of knowledge.
For the Buddhists it came originally from astronomy, cosmology and tradition. Some passing intuitions-

the top of the head is important in the process of enlightenment.
Even in the chakra system in the upward direction of illumination-
the final wheel is on top of the head.
From astronomy and numerology the 3, 9 (3x3), 18, 36 and finally the 108 were important numbers.
There were other numbers for other purposes some shared by Buddhists and Daoists-5, 8, 64- sometimes the Daoist and Buddhist meanings were different- the five elemenets-panchabhutam.

The long prayer necklaces of buddhist monks had 108 counting beads...for meditations.

The shaolin momks that I have seen locally most were wushu monks-evident in conversations...I did not examine their heads!

[Phenix]

Phil,

That has to do with the vow of the individual Chinese Buddhist monks take so it is not necessary 9.

You might be able to ask the Shao Lin website below what is it means.



http://www.shaolin.org.cn/html/html/wu/menu1.htm

Here is a clip on Shao Lin's art from the same website that show what I am talking about non dual and duality ..... the ultimate of Shao Lin charecteristic or the DNA. This is not my invention. From this one can see, how the definition of Buddhist Martial art.
Be it E12P or Shao Lin. There is a pattern there.

Such as we all WCK
core in : Come Retain leave Send, Using Silence to manage action, un engage thrust in, using KAng and Rou accordingly.

The rest is to a large degree of flexibilities, and things evol, and revol, and .......



¡¡ÉÙÁÖÎäÊõÒòìøÎäºÏÒ»¶ø²©´ó¾«ÉÒÔìøÈëÎ䣬ϰÎäÐÞìø £¬¾ø·Ç×ÔÎÀÇ¿ÉíС¼¼£»ÍËÔò²ÎìøÑøÐÔÐÞµÀÐУ¬½øÔò»¤Ë±¨ ¹ú¾ÈÖÚÉú£¬¹ÊÉÙÁÖÎäÊõÓÖ³ÆΪ¡°ÎäÊõìø¡±

Shao lin martial art because it is Zen and Martial unity (non-dual) thus it is vast and deep. USing Zen to enter into Martial. Training in Martial (art) and cultivating Chan. This is certainly not only about the self-defence or strengthern body kind of little narrow skill.

When Return to individual, thus cultivate in Chan to growing the individual's character and cultivate the path of Dao. When Move forward, thus Protecting the temple, contibute to one's country and helping Living Beings. Thus, Shao Lin Martial art also named " WuSuChan" of Martial Chan.



ÉÙÁÖ¹¦·òµÄ¼«ÖÂÊÇÁ·¾Í²»¶¯ÐÄ¡£Á·¾Í²»¶¯ÐÄ£¬¾Í²»ÔÙÌ°Éú ÅÂËÀ¡£²»Ì°ÉúÅÂËÀ£¬²¢²»ÊDz»ÈÈ°®ÉúÃü£¬Ïà·´¸üÈÈ°®ÉúÃü ¡£Ñ§»áÈÈ°®ÉúÃü£¬²ÅÊÇѧìøµÄÕæÕýÄ¿µÄ°¡!ʲôÑùµÄÉúÃü² ÅÖµµÃÈÈ°®?Ö»ÓÐûÓз³ÄÕûÓÐÍ´¿àµÄÉúÃü²ÅÖµµÃÈÈ°®¡£Òª Ïë´ïµ½Ã»Óз³ÄÕûÓÐÍ´¿à£¬Ö»ÓÐÁ·¾Í²»¶¯ÐÄ¡£


Shao Lin Kungfu's ultimate is the cultivation of Bu Dong Xi or the Unmoveable heart.

Cultivate Unmoveable heart, then one has no fear of death. Not fear of death doesn't mean not loving life. But incontradic, one love and value life even more. Loving and value life is the true goal of studying Chan. What kind of live is worthed to be love warmly? the type of life without worried and suffering. Thinking about life without worried and suffering. Then, there is only one way that is to cultivate the Bu Dong Xi or Unmoveable heart.


------------------------------

It said, UnMoveable heart is the ultimate, But not Yuhn Sahn. It said "When Move forward, thus Protecting the temple, contibute to one's country and helping Living Beings" it doesnt said Fan Qing Fu Mi (over turn the Qing and return to Ming.) Both Qing and Ming are both living beings who needs help.

thus, IMHO, while investigating buddhism derive advance Chinese Martial art, without a clear understanding of buddha nature and Buddhism practice can't be done.
IMHO, Without understand that "silence" all other things is "dead" or "completed". Thus, need to Preserve the art, need that "silence". Need to evol need that "silence". Need to master the art need that "silence". But that "silence" might be surface only one kicks 10,000 kick... and no formula can be follow or reciting and understanding the oldest kuen kuit cannot replace that 10,000 kicks.

[Phil Redmond]

Thank you Yuanfen and Hendrik for your input.
Phil

[passing_through]

Hendrik,

You need to get off your high horse and learn to answer what is asked while putting aside your own agenda.

Question: I have been wondering what the 9? dots on the heads of the Shaolin Monks represented for years.

Answer from Hendrik: Completely off topic and takes a swipe another family in the martial arts world based on his own interpretation of the other family. (Odd, seeing as how members of the other family don't attack anyone like Hendrik).

Sifu Phil,

The tradition of burning dots on the forehead comes from the time of Emperor Leung Mou Dai (Liang Wu Ti). At this time, he wanted to kill rebels that were hiding in Buddhist temples. He sent an informant to the Abbots to warn them that he sending his soldiers to kill the rebels. To save their lives, the monks were told to burn six dots on their forehead. The soldiers were under orders to kill anyone that did not have the dots on their heads.

So, this is the history of the dots. Afterwards people came up with different reasons, different symbolism to explain why they did it. (for example: The significance of the number of burns - three for the Three Jewels (san bao, Sanskrit triratna); nine in the square of three, hence the power is redoubled; eighteen represented the eighteen arhats.) However, talking about all sorts of numerology misses the point.

So, Hendrik, why don't you step back from your agenda and personal interpretation and take a vacation like you keep mentioning. Don't you have friends to visit in the real world rather than continue to live through the internet? Real life, facing real energy, can be scary but the more you do it the more comfortable you'll feel.

Such as we all WCK
core in : Come Retain leave Send, Using Silence to manage action, un engage thrust in, using KAng and Rou accordingly.

Funny... still ain't the way I heard it in the Ip Man lineage.

It said, UnMoveable heart is the ultimate, But not Yuhn Sahn.

To whom are you talking? About what are you talking? You understand what you read of one kuen kuit - but what does it really mean? I know a supposed master that tried to tell a friend of mine the meaning of my friend's own system, an outsider looking in and trying to translate based on his own understanding. You're not inside the family so keep your opinions and guesses to yourself. You only spread your confusion to the rest of the world when you open your big mouth and let out that loud parrot squawk.

It said "When Move forward, thus Protecting the temple, contibute to one's country and helping Living Beings" it doesnt said Fan Qing Fu Mi (over turn the Qing and return to Ming.) Both Qing and Ming are both living beings who needs help.

As for the Fan Qing Fu Ming, let's ask the Revolutionaries of the 1640s about how to how to contribute to one's country and help living beings, not Hendrik of the 21st Century. Looking at a culture from the past and trying to apply our social mores is an illusion.

IMHO, while investigating buddhism derive advance Chinese Martial art, without a clear understanding of buddha nature and Buddhism practice can't be done.
IMHO, Without understand that "silence" all other things is "dead" or "completed". Thus, need to Preserve the art, need that "silence". Need to evol need that "silence". Need to master the art need that "silence". But that "silence" might be surface only one kicks 10,000 kick... and no formula can be follow or reciting and understanding the oldest kuen kuit cannot replace that 10,000 kicks

What is complete? What is dead? What is formula? Relying on your own understanding of things leads to loss. You still can't simply state what you have to state without attacking others, can you? Looking from the outside you can't understand what happens on the inside. Stop guessing.

Jeremy R.

[Phenix]

This is Phil's question:

I have been wondering what the 9? dots on the heads of the Shaolin Monks represented for years. I was hoping that you would know.
Phil


This is my answer:

That has to do with the vow of the individual Chinese Buddhist monks take so it is not necessary 9.

You might be able to ask the Shao Lin website below what is it means.



This is your answer:


Afterwards people came up with different reasons, different symbolism to explain why they did it. (for example: The significance of the number of burns - three for the Three Jewels (san bao, Sanskrit triratna); nine in the square of three, hence the power is redoubled; eighteen represented the eighteen arhats.) However, talking about all sorts of numerology misses the point. ----J



So, Is it wrong to provide a website of Shao Lin so that Phil if interested about details of dots on the heads of the Shaolin Monks represented for years can contact Shao Lin? As you said,
"Afterwards people came up with different reasons, different symbolism to explain why they did it. " So?

----------------------------------

So, Hendrik, why don't you step back from your agenda and personal interpretation and take a vacation like you keep mentioning.

Don't you have friends to visit in the real world rather than continue to live through the internet? Real life, facing real energy, can be scary but the more you do it the more comfortable you'll feel. ----J


Sorry that you don't like my post.

I found it interesting what was post in the TRUE SHAO LIN WEB of CHINA.
And, I am just translating from Chinese To English. Not interpleting.

That is the writing of the Shao Lin temple of China. May be you want to contact the Abott of Shao Lin temple and tell them thier Bu dong Xing or unmoveable heart core are wrong?



You know, when you become a Buddha. I will ask you a question.

"The enlightement one, with you compassionate, can you please explain to me how come revealing what happen cause me bad karma of being attack?

Ok, you are right. I need to visit the real world.



But before I go let me tell you about your opinion:


"What is complete? What is dead? What is formula? Relying on your own understanding of things leads to loss. You still can't simply state what you have to state without attacking others, can you? Looking from the outside you can't understand what happens on the inside. Stop guessing." ---J

you might be totally correct and I might only having 0.1% chance to be right. and I don't understand Chan, E12P, SLT, History.......
But, then If the 0.1% is right what happen?

BTW, I don't attack others. However, same with everyone I have a free speech right to disagree that My ancestors YIk Kam's art is a watery down version of others. I just state evidents to proof other's claim is totally absurd, right?

So, may be you need to tell those who making claims without evidents to stop making absurd claim on Red Boat WCK ancetors art instead or trying to Ban others to show evidents of otherwise.




-----------------------------------------------

As for the Fan Qing Fu Ming, let's ask the Revolutionaries of the 1640s about how to how to contribute to one's country and help living beings, not Hendrik of the 21st Century.
Looking at a culture from the past and trying to apply our social mores is an illusion.--- J


You have a great point.

Now, lets look at the history from the people's side.
1640's era Lee Chee-Chen the rebel general with the people of Ming marched into BeiJing. The Emperor of Ming hang himself. Ming totally lost control. People suffered. General Wu San Kui with his own agenda open the gate and let the Qing comes in to rule.

Qing, due to have no idea how to rule China. Asking the Chinese Scholars to compile a book about what bring Ming and other Chinese dynasty down. Qing Emperor carefully studied them becaue they want to be a good Emperor too. That result is first 3 generation of good emperor. KAng Xi, a top ten best emperor throught out the history of China. (how many emperor of Ming get into the top ten list?) the second emperor of Qing bring China into proper and people into a good living. The first emperor, Studying Buddhism, The third emperor, Yong Chen was a public know Chan practitioner who has attained Satori. Who then contribute to the organize of the Chan School.

war? Revolutions? who is the one who suffer? the people. The Ming Cares? if Ming does how come Lee Chee-Chen martched with the poor people into Bejing? and the last Ming Emperor force to hang himself? How come even his generals doesn't pull the army back to Beijing to protect the Emperor?

As a Chinese myself, certainly years ago when I was young I read the history and don't like the Qing and admire the General Such as Se Ke-fa who deadly protecting Yang Jou until he was killed and couldn't find his crops. I don't like Qing because what the heck Qing doing in China and ruling China?

But then, when one get older, think about it. It is the apple has rotten. The country has lost its control. Prolong in fighting is only causing more casualty.
Look at the big pictures not some egoistic believe. It is admirable to fight and die RoyaL. But, if that fight or revolution going to cause thousands of families suffer and delay the stability of a country. What is the point? what is the price to pay?

Human wants stability and peace living. What right one has due to some people's ego that let other families suffer?
Ok, even if the Revolutionaries win and overthrow Qing and Chase them out. Who which elite in the Revolutionaries can manage the Country? Will it still a Ming or something else?

Where were these elite in the first place when Lee Che-Chen martched into Beijing? Why not prevent all the tragic from happen instead of make the people into casualty?

Does General Wu San Kui who is the prince of Qing in the Southern of China give a damm about Fan Qing Fu Ming? or wanting to be an Emperor himself too? Read History.

Now, as a Buddhist, I am sure those buddhist monks at that era are much much 1000000X wise then me. What did they do? They were close to the emperor or the CEO of Qing.

A compassionate thought of the Emperor is better then 10 battles winning by the revolutionists. Qing always can send more trop to destroy the revolutionists and the people who has nothing to do with the revolutionists died.
But, a compassionate thought of the emperor. Qing is good, people is good.

One fight a war when things can be stopped. when the war is settle and over and Ming's control is totally wipe out. Is it smart to do that raising more casualty? Sure, I can understand the pain. I am chinese. But, is it to be emotion at it more important or spare thousands of families' life?


Thus, Compassionate is mightier then all the martial art. Compassionate make people friends and not enermy. Fighting, no matter how advance one's martial art or weapon is going to bring destruction and revenge.
Compassionate will subdue people from heart.
Fighting only force people to bow until the time comes for make even. and Compassionate is independent of time. Thus, the Buddhist all bow to Kwan Yin, Boddhisatva of Compassionate and even Miyamoto Mushasi.



So, as soon as someone is still making claim that thier WCK is the most original and the oldest.... and superior.... The decendents of the WCK ancetors of Red Boat Opera are not going to sit down there and agree with what is absurd non evidentals toward their ancestors.


Again, I might be totally wrong and you are totally right. Since I am just an old fool who doesn't know what I am talking about and don't know about martial art.

But then what if you find out the 0.01% is right later. Will you be able to live with yourself?




Again, take me just as an old man saying non sense.
I don't know what I am saying anyway. I only exist in the internet non real world. and bankcrupt with my martial art. A no body why even bother to waste energy on some one such as me?

In the movie, Wong Fe-hung Said, Yee De Fu ren or using De ( contribute good and proper deeds to others) so other will respect.
I am certainly doesn't have De and far from that. I hope that you who is still young cultivate De and thus everyone will someday respect you and become a great leader of WCK. So don't learn from me.


Time to fade away, sign off forever , and shut up.

This will be my last post and I will not answer any post anymore. Sorry.

[passing_through]

This is Phil's question:

I have been wondering what the 9? dots on the heads of the Shaolin Monks represented for years. I was hoping that you would know.
Phil


This is my answer:

That has to do with the vow of the individual Chinese Buddhist monks take so it is not necessary 9.

You might be able to ask the Shao Lin website below what is it means.

So, Is it wrong to provide a website of Shao Lin so that Phil if interested about details of dots on the heads of the Shaolin Monks represented for years can contact Shao Lin? As you said, "Afterwards people came up with different reasons, different symbolism to explain why they did it. " So?

Two things:

1) No – the wrong enters in when you add energy to the question by adding your own agenda. Just stating what the website wasn’t enough – you had to get into a commentary on HFY. Quit being on the defensive – just state things as they are and let people come to their own conclusions for themselves. If you’ll notice my pattern of posting, I only get involved with you when you go out of your way to talk trash about HFY. When you talk about your lineage, I don’t crack at you. I don’t take shots about 12 Zhang, Ermei or the rest of the information you’ve shared. I read what you write with an open mind and an open heart. In fact – you might like to see the Siu Sing Tin Yan Dei training of HFY, as it looks very similar to the noi / ngoi rolling you and Rene were playing back in 2001. However, you’re constant childish remarks in an attempt to defend your lineage from your own interpretation of VTM writings rather limit the possibility that you’ll ever see it – how can you come to see what HFY is all about when you talk so negative about it all the time? You’ve set yourself into a fixed position in opposition – next time we meet, there will be bad energy – not because of me but because of the energy you initiated.

2) I don’t like and don’t not-like your post. The Shaolin website was interesting and thank you for translating it – but it could do without the commentary on your part. Sifu Phil didn’t ask about Shaolin, just the dots on the forehead. The Shaolin information was bonus – but didn’t mention burning dots – it mentioned about (in your words) “non dual and duality ..... the ultimate of Shao Lin charecteristic or the DNA” – not what was asked. That would have been a better topic for another thread. Why did you feel it necessary to include this link and quotes and then follow up with negative commentary about HFY?

FWIW, Shaolin as it exists in China at the Honan temple is Northern Shaolin influenced by ~20 years of Wushu. They’re still trying to re-establish their identity. As for telling the Abbot that he’s wrong – that’s your attitude/suggestion – energy coming from you, not me. I recall watching a tape wherein you were all about telling your lunch companion about his own system – a system you had only just seen for the first time and a master you had just met (but he’s not Chinese so maybe he can’t understand martial arts like you can – an insinuation you’ve made before). When someone is speaking to me, I don’t try to tell them what I know or don’t know – but that’s just me, I guess. That’s my mo dak (wu de).

As for bad karma – there’s no such thing in my eye, only karma. Good or bad is your opinion, your ego making the call. There is a time to be compassionate and a time to be cruel – but what is really compassion, what is really cruel? When you made your comentary about HFY, you introduced new enrgy - I'm responding to that energy without adding my own)

I have yet to say that you are wrong about your information in regards to your lineage. I only counter you with the possibility that there is a larger world that what you’ve seen. You’re certain of what you know – more power to you. However, I see things from a different angle. So long as you keep your information close to your chest and only use it to attack VTM information, progress will be a long time coming.

And you do attack others – (“Other’s claim is totally absurd”… them’s fighting words, boy) – in my last several posts I’ve taken your comments and refuted them. If I had the time and desire, I could go through all your posts and take out everything you’ve stated that’s an attack on others. You’ll notice the VTM doesn’t publish material stating people are stupid or watered down or all about killing – those are your interpretations of what you read. Rather than try to understand the context of the VTM articles, you “jump the gun” and run off making straw man arguments all over the place. I also haven’t tried to get anyone banned for speaking their mind.

You might have a very in-depth, thorough, “advanced” system – but so long as you only reveal bits and pieces, that remains to be seen – but you’ll notice that I’m not asking or demanding you to produce video tapes as others have done with HFY. I’m leaving how, when, where, why, and even if open to you – no demands from me. Sure I wanna see more of your system but if I don’t, I don’t. *shrug* I’m not going to call you names or make insinuations about your intent. Why spend the energy? Odd that my behavior doesn’t quite fit the way it’s been painted by others, ya?

When I commented about looking at this history and context of the time, sure – history vindicates the Qing Dynasty – but is that what the revolutionaries saw as the were living through the transition (note that I said revolutionaries, not people)? Is that how the Han Chinese people saw it - being forced to wear a ponytail and shave the front of their heads (the Manchu considered the Han Chinese to be as horses (beasts of burden, not real people) and thought they should look the part)? This is the Qing benevolence? We can play games going back and forth about who did what to whom and when and why but it doesn’t serve any real purpose. The Ming revolutionaries, however misguided by today’s standards and by the actual events of the Qing Dynasty, felt that the situation was intolerable and fought back. That was their motivation and the context out of which Wing Chun was created (as a means to enlightenment for the monks, as a weapons system for the military – a combination of both, contained in the paradox of the Buddha’s Heart, the Wanzi (my personal phrasing)) – according to current VTM research. With more research, that model may change.

As for the Buddhists helping the Qing – is that all Buddhists, everywhere and at all times in the Qing Dynasty? Is it somehow conceivable that one or more groups DID NOT help the Qing and instead, actively worked counter to the Qing?

Understanding the Wanzi, fighting is compassion. But to understand how, that’s not so easily written – is it? How did Musashi understand it – through a lifetime of killing others. Each of us walk the Dharma the way we must walk it, ya?

Actually, the HFY system doesn’t make the claim of superiority. The idea is espoused by the VTM. Even if people are involved in both, there is a separation. Evidently people active on KFO can’t make that distinction. And for the record, superior is a word thrown about by others – it’s not in VTM articles except in the context of “a superior” not “the superior” – even in the Mastering Kung Fu book the word superior occurs less than half-a-dozen times.

I don’t think I’m totally right – so why should you? And you being an old fool has nothing to do with you knowing what you’re talking about or knowing anything about the martial arts. These three are separate discussions. As for me living with myself, making no claims of being this or that, so yes – I can. I have room to live – what about you?

In my view, nothing is wasted. So, stay or go, it’s up to you.

Jeremy R.

And you forgot to take your ball with you. (ok, so I added a little of my own energy but come on, you're acting like an 8-year-old)