What is wrong with Bruce Kumar Frantzis? [Archive]

Doug

11-18-2003, 11:41 AM

Hello,

I have read a few posts on this forum where some people do not have a lot of good things to say about Bruce Kumar Frantzis. I have never met him, but his books and videos are what really got me interested in Chinese martial arts. My question for this thread is what is so bad about him that causes some people to speak negatively about him or his practices.

I recently conducted a Google search for Frantzis and Seagal. In this search, I varied the terms used: "jerk Seagal," "a*s Seagal," "b*tch Seagal," "f*ck Seagal," loser Seagal," and so forth. I conducted the same search with Frantzis. While nearly everything provided results for Steven Seagal, there were none provided for Bruce Kumar Frantzis. I could not find anything against his teachings, ethics, standards, or business online.

So why do some of you not like him? I would like to bring some clarity to this matter because some claims are made about him here that usually go unchecked or unchallenged. These claims, in my opinion, are unfair when not supplied with reasons to support them.

Thanks,

Doug M

Ren Blade

11-18-2003, 12:57 PM

You're talking about Kumar from Boston? I don't know him personally or seen much of him. I just heard that he doesn't look pretty when he does forms. But he's a good fighter.

NorthernShaolin

11-18-2003, 01:00 PM

Aren't you talking about the guy in Sacramento, California who is heavy set and has claimed that he is the best push hands person in Tai Chi Chuan?

Doug

11-18-2003, 01:05 PM

This is the person in question. He claimed this? When? Where? Details, please.

Thanks,

Doug M

NorthernShaolin

11-18-2003, 02:15 PM

Let me clarify as I do not want to flame anyone. If this is the same person that I'm thinking , he learned from various masters in China and claims that they told information only reserved for special students. I only heard second hand he has stated that he has not met anyone who can really challenge him in pushing hands. His tactics is that he waits for his opponents to make the first move, then uses his weight to counter attack. Not what I would call correct Yin and Yang but more like brute force.

That's all I really know.

Walter Joyce

11-18-2003, 02:30 PM

I have done seminars with Kumar and studied with someone who spent 10 years training with him.

He is not based in Boston, but in California.

He was one of the first Americans to go to mainland China (after Japan, Taiwan, and also to India) to study internal arts, including chinese medicine and also was a taoist priest. Putting all else aside, he should be respected and acknowledged as helping to open the channels along with other Americans who took the time to travel to China and helped open the lines of communication.

His IMA skills are real, his knowledge is deep. I'm not crazy about his personality, but I respect his accomplishments and knowledge.

His is admittedly a controversial figure.

Push hands claims aside either fictional or real (thats the problem with second hand information) I would want to fight him.

FWIW

shaolinboxer

11-18-2003, 04:01 PM

He visits an internal school here in manhattan that i have some friends at from time to time.

Word around here is he's the real deal. Never met him but friends like him.

backbreaker

11-18-2003, 04:20 PM

When I was learning chen style taiji my teacher said that he had visited Kumar Frantziz I think, or all of his students.I think he said Bruce Kumar frantziz, anyways.Unless I'm remembering wrong , my chen teacher said no Kumar Frantziz student could apply any chin na on him due to his high chen style skills, and they all knew him because of this. He is not very big.I heard this 2 years ago so I hope I'm not mixing him up with someone else.

crumble

11-19-2003, 07:28 AM

The book didn't do it for me. The character sketches were interesting, but the book was filled with lots of general statements "about" the arts. 300 pages and nothing concrete on "how". In the end, it was just a bunch of words to take on faith, nothing was presented that could be tested.

There aren't any "Combat Secrets" in "The Power of Internal Martial Arts: Combat Secrets of Ba Gua, Tai Chi, and Hsing-I". It's an inspirational book which is why people like it, but like most inspirational books it only inspires people that already believe.

-crumble

NorthernShaolin

11-19-2003, 11:48 AM

I went out and brought his book and I completely agree with crumble. Nothing new in his book, just inspiration.

Internal Boxer

11-19-2003, 02:01 PM

When Bruce came to London he booked a lesson with Master Chu King Hung, and got creamed at push hands, although Chu did say it took him a while to find his centre and Bruce has about a 60 pound advantage over Chu. Chu advocates nei-gung, hammer work, tendon dev etc, so for all Bruces Chi development he was no match for Chu.
(A very reliable source from the Longfei association told me)

Besides, I have never met Bruce, But I have seen how expensive his day courses are, for fancy Chi-gungs, only the very wealthy need apply!

Syd

11-20-2003, 04:37 AM

I've had little to do with the guy but his vibe has never been my particular bag, I doubt it ever will either.

Walter Joyce

11-20-2003, 08:51 AM

Check out this thread.

You have someone asking about a prominent figure, then a lot of misinformation from people who don't even know the person.

Next is a query about what someone MIGHT have heard Kumar say in re push hands.

Followed by critiques of his book. (YOU want "how to" on internals from a BOOK? Wake up. Get a teacher. With very few exceptions (Tim Cartmell's work mainly) you don't get how to on internals from books.)

Then more vague assertions again based on opinion without encounter.

Next a claim from a "reliable" source as to Kumar's defeat at the hands of the Last disciple of Yang Sau Hung (funny, his second disciple, with whom I have actually trained, refused to give Kumar a lesson.) And btw, I won't get into the second hand info I have heard about him from people in the same lineage.

Yeah great info on this thread so far.

ROFLMAO

wujidude

11-20-2003, 10:03 AM

Breathe, Walter, remember to breathe. ;)

crumble

11-20-2003, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by Walter Joyce
YOU want "how to" on internals from a BOOK? Wake up. Get a teacher. With very few exceptions (Tim Cartmell's work mainly) you don't get how to on internals from books.)

I know you can't "get it" from a book. There isn't an opportunity for correcting that a teacher provides. But a teacher can describe how, knowing that to "find" how is going to take one-on-one corrections.

Anyway, of course I want his "how to", don't you? Even when you have a teacher, aren't you interested in other teacher's approaches? It sounds like we both enjoyed some Tim Cartmell books. Too bad there aren't more like them...

I think there is a lot you can learn from a book. They can help you from making naive decisions when you are first starting out -- saving you lots of time. That's the sort of thing I was hoping for. But I don't think Kumar's book helps in that respect.

[Censored]

11-20-2003, 12:09 PM

Regardless of who or what Kumar is, the book is titled "Combat Secrets..." and doesn't contain any. This criticism is fair, though I liked the book for what it was.

The title may have been selected or changed by the publisher. Their concern is selling copies; truth in advertising is a lower priority.

Doug

11-20-2003, 12:28 PM

Hey Guys,

I want to make it clear that I did not and do not mean any disrespect toward Bruce Kumar Frantzis with posting this thread. Mant negative things have been said about him, yet there seems to be no reason why. That is why I wanted to bring this to the foreground: to establish some kind of reasoning for or against such accusations. The above responses are statements that offer possibilities to my initial question, but they are not taken to heart. I wanted a better understanding of some of the opinions that have been offered on this forum about the man.

As I said, I like the material he offers. Unfortunately, I do not have the money to go to a seminar just yet, which puts me in a disadvantageous position if I intend to learn from him (I also believe, as any sane person does, that the best way to learn is from the source). In that respect, I am disappointed that people with ample money have access to teachings that I think everyone should be able to have access to. Kumar seems to present his material in a way that I relate to, but that could be the impression I get, not the reality of his personality.

It seems that some might have conflicts with his character, which can be a problem with any teacher. Of course, one will learn the most from the instructor one can get along with or relate to somehow, but we do not all have that privilege. Perhaps this has played a role in some opinions here.

However, I have a sad feeling deep down that I will never be able to practice with him. He seems very distant as a result of all of his activities in seminars and personal practice that he must be doing on a daily basis (even though it seems he has not time for that). I would like to meet him at least once.

Anyway, thanks for posting all these responses. Please keep responding.

Doug M

Repulsive Monkey

11-21-2003, 07:36 AM

Chu Gin Soon, whipped his azz once too, and when he met Cheng Man Ching's top disciple in Canada Dr Chi Chiang, Bruce tried to attack him and DR Chi dealt him two knife handed blows to his stomach in defence, and then walked away from him in disgust.

But the bggest misnomer is why Bruce in his book bragd about his expertise and time spent with Wnag Shu-jin and then fails to tell the truth about it all and how he did what he does with all Chinese Masters before they deal him discouraging blows, by totally disrespecting them.
Wang Shu Jin kicked him out of his school for his attitude alone I guess, as did all the azz slings Bruce got from the other eminent Masters Bruce tried it on with.

I can verify the Canada, because my Teacher was Dr Chi's student at the time.

Bruce does have some skill, but if his UK students are indicator then he hasn't mastered that much.

Walter Joyce

11-22-2003, 08:43 AM

Chu Gin Soon refused to meet him, so Kumar's student Bill Ryan took lessons with Chu Gin Soon.

Buddy

11-22-2003, 08:37 PM

It's pretty easy to talk **** on a forum like this. Go see him for yourself. He'll pound you. Walter has put a belly to belly on the correct here.
Buddy

BAI HE

11-22-2003, 09:18 PM

LOFL!

I'm not a big BK fan, but erase ten years and two car accidents and he would demolish anyone who posts on this forum. Now? Who knows? I don't speak for him.

Please make a distinction between what he writes and what he can do. People have tried to discredit him for years. Long before most here finished junior high, he was out there exploring these arts. Now, everyone is keen to take a few shots at him(from a distance). Most laughable.....

Oh? the old Mr.X thing? If Robert Smith had a problem with Kumar , he certainly did not have the balls to DO ANYTHING ABOUT it , now did hid he? Smith has the balls to talk abouy " Boxers of the mouth corners " though. Seems to me he was first rate in this regard...

brassmonkey

11-22-2003, 09:26 PM

I have no affiliation now or in the past to BK's organization. I've heard from very good sources that BK challenged most the names you see in the magazines back in his day. Most didnt accept his challenge, alot lost, some won.

As a fighter in his day I don't think anyone can disagree, now his personality and how he treats people that's a different story.

brassmonkey

11-23-2003, 01:26 AM

Back I'd be careful repeating what you hear on the internet especially accusations of frauds. However the names listed seems on the money to me however Li I don't know of and BK is real his only fraudelent behavior I'm aware of is his exagerations with his time spent studying with Wang Shu Jin.

Syd

11-23-2003, 11:42 PM

I'll get the popcorn...

Doug

11-24-2003, 12:37 AM

Oh? the old Mr.X thing? If Robert Smith had a problem with Kumar , he certainly did not have the balls to DO ANYTHING ABOUT it , now did hid he? Smith has the balls to talk abouy " Boxers of the mouth corners " though. Seems to me he was first rate in this regard...

As a fighter in his day I don't think anyone can disagree, now his personality and how he treats people that's a different story.

Back I'd be careful repeating what you hear on the internet especially accusations of frauds. However the names listed seems on the money to me however Li I don't know of and BK is real his only fraudelent behavior I'm aware of is his exagerations with his time spent studying with Wang Shu Jin.

Only Yang and Wu stylists have the true Chang San Feng energies and no matter how ultimate Chen style fajin can be, it is dangerous and will harm your health and is against the natural way

Wow, there are quite a few claims here. Can you fellows elaborate on these points a bit more? There are either claims or statements made here that are not quite clear in their present context. I would appreciate it if you could go into more detail about the respective claims with further reasoning.

Thanks,

Doug M

backbreaker

11-24-2003, 12:56 AM

PHILBERT

11-24-2003, 02:29 PM

Hey guys, play nice. Constructive criticism and opinions on a book is alright, but don't go bashing.

Doug

11-24-2003, 09:23 PM

Has anyone watched Mr. Frantzis' video on Tai Chi Chuan applications? I find it very informative, and it appears to show him as more than just a man who published books on internal martial arts.

Are there any replies to my request for more explanations for the assertions above? If not, then why are they being made at all?

Doug M

donjitsu2

11-24-2003, 11:01 PM

I've seen some of his Xingyi and Bagua clips (I saw some Taiji clips too, but I don't know much about Taiji). Now, I've seen good Xingyi and bad Xingyi. His is better than most. Same goes for his Bagua. Now I've never met the guy but neither have a lot of people that downplay his skill. If you've ever read his books or seen his videos it would be plain to see (unless you are just some "weekend warrior") that the guy knows what he is talking about. B.K. Frantzis has just as much to offer the IMA as any other instructor teaching in the US. His problem isn't his skill or his teachings, it's his price tag.

scotty1

11-25-2003, 02:13 AM

"he waits for his opponents to make the first move,"

and deflects, Yin

"then uses his weight to counter attack."

Yang. What's wrong with the guy using a natural advantage when he's attacking?

"Not what I would call correct Yin and Yang but more like brute force."

Not really, as I have shown there's Yin and Yang present. How is that not "correct"?

Using his weight doesn't have to be brute force. Some force has to be used to subdue an opponent. Simply in the right time, place and amount.

You've wined and dined the correct, taken her home and put the Spandau Ballet on, but you need to change your contacts and check your info next time son, because you've been fukking the incorrect all the time!!

Syd

11-25-2003, 03:01 AM

Starts humming "Gold" and "True"...

scotty1

11-25-2003, 05:35 AM

*clicking his fingers*

Ba ba ba ba, ba....

jun_erh

11-25-2003, 04:09 PM

Alot of the guys that come up here, particularly white guys, seem to have obvious talent but are perceived as arrogant. I only have one book of BK Frantzis it's not even his, he just translated it or something it's called "ancient way to keep fit" and his involvement with it sets him off on the right foot with me. I doubt he's the greatest grandmaster ever, but he again, he's probably talented.

and I like the dada-ness of the topic title.

"Careful with that axe, Eugene" -Syd Barret 68

Syd

11-25-2003, 04:43 PM

Careful with that axe eugene was actually written by Roger Waters. ;) Syd didn't play but one track on Saucerful of Secrets, it was a little bit of guitar on Remember a Day and Jugband Blues was the only song he actually wrote and sang.

jun_erh

11-27-2003, 06:27 AM

I didn't know that. I think I heard it via "relics" which had more stuff by him. remember a day is awesome.

Doug

12-04-2003, 05:42 PM

Perhaps, then, there will be no more accusations about Bruce Kumar Frantzis since no one is backing up any more claims.

Thanks for all the help,

Doug M

Kaitain(UK)

12-08-2003, 03:58 AM

all seems a bit pointless to me?

If he did or didn't 'lose' in pushing hands with other people is neither here nor there - if he can teach good IMA then he's worth looking at. If he is reported to have made grand claims, then so what? Loads of people do it in MA to raise their profile - it's just business. Look past the surface and see what he has to offer.

Surprised at your vehemence though Walter :) usually you are pretty chilled out.

And re pushing hands - receive and then issue is a pretty good strategy to me. If he was all about brute force then he wouldn't be beating anyone with any skill. Unless we're all training a useless method that falls apart under an assault of mass....

This is the voice of experience btw - I had the joy of defending John Ding on here and also of attacking Dan Doherty. Growing up takes time :)

scotty1

12-08-2003, 04:45 AM

Don't suppose you've got a link to the attack on Dan Docherty have you?

Be interested to read it, that's for sure.
or if you could PM or email me that would be good too.

Kaitain(UK)

12-08-2003, 05:05 AM

I've just had a look through my post history and I can't find reference to it - just a bunch of stuff that makes me cringe to read it now :) I think it was before the board got reset a couple of years ago

I think it went like this though - I'd been to train with one of Dan's instructors in Kent and I wasn't impressed with what I'd seen and experienced. I'd also read a few articles on Dan's website that I found pretty offensive and so I came and had a rant on here - then a bunch of people that I respect on here came out and said they were students of Dan so I figured it best to stfu. I think we actually managed to turn it into a useful discussion on leaning in Wu style.

Looking through my old posts I have found a whole lot of vitriol against Earle Montague :) Man I used to go off on one about him - it used to be Sam Wiley versus the entire board... ah the heady days of 'my style is best'

scotty1

12-08-2003, 05:40 AM

Yeah I think Dan's schools definitely vary.

I'm at the Brighton one. I know Liokault is a student of dan's at Oxford.

Can you remember who else on the forum said they were a student of Dan's?

Kaitain(UK)

12-08-2003, 06:37 AM

Man, I can't remember the guy's handle - he was based in Sweden

cool - I didn't know there was good Taiji in Brighton. I spend lots of time down there. Born and raised in Brighton so I like going back whenever I can. Must move back there soon.

omarthefish

12-08-2003, 08:44 PM

I only scanned the 3 pages but I didn't notice anyone stating the most obvious (to me anyways) reason people like to criticise the guy. He runs the most expensive seminars I have ever seen out side of SCARS or the like and generally doesn't even teach them. He has created a commercial empire that vastly exceeds what is nessesary to "pay the bills". To my idealistic young eyes, he looks like the ultimate sellout. He advertises next to the past life regressin therapists and way before I learned anything about the arts he was representing he had already established himself in my mind as a new-age spiritual venture capitalist . . . or some thing like that.

To be ABSOLUTELY CLEARL:

I am not criticising his taiji, bagua or any other neigong and even think his book, "Opening the Energy Gates of The Body" is pretty good. But I really cherish these things and am generally revolted by the commodificatino of spirituality. I am not even confused between MA and spirituality but he DOES market his stuff as a spiritual path. His literature and his choice of market really push the taoist angle. In my book that makes him a circus tent preacher, even if he DOES have the goods.

Doug

12-09-2003, 02:32 PM

He runs the most expensive seminars I have ever seen out side of SCARS or the like and generally doesn't even teach them. He has created a commercial empire that vastly exceeds what is nessesary to "pay the bills". To my idealistic young eyes, he looks like the ultimate sellout. He advertises next to the past life regressin therapists and way before I learned anything about the arts he was representing he had already established himself in my mind as a new-age spiritual venture capitalist . . . or some thing like that.

Yes, his seminars do seem expensive. Regardless of the cost, I would still like to learn from him in a personal setting, be it a seminar, a class, or a retreat. I don't know about him being a sellout or creating "a commercial empire" of sorts. I think there are a lot bigger names, especially ones that readers here are familiar with, that deserve that finger pointed at them. I don't know why he charges so much, yet since I don't know the reason, I can't consider him "the ultimate sellout" for that alone. I think you have a good point, and it does stick in the minds of all potential students. It keeps me from attending a seminar, but it doesn't keep me from his work.

His literature and his choice of market really push the taoist angle. In my book that makes him a circus tent preacher, even if he DOES have the goods.

I don't think he can avoid addressing Taoism, especially since he teaches Taoism and Taoist methods. In fact, that is his point: to help people improve their lives through healty, safe methods of the Taoist Water Tradition. I don't think he is advocating worshipping Taoist gods or someone/something else that would make him "a circus tent preacher." To be objective here would work against his methods. He certainly isn't going door to door to convert anyone, and he surely isn't telling people that he will cure them with some god's power or spirit.

I think he is offering a service (for lack of a better word) that, unfortunately, is expensive. But I don't find his books and videos any less encouraging or helpful. I have used the techniques in his books and videos to release tension throughout my body, and I have to say that it really works. Heck, just last night in bed, I was trying to dissolve the anxiety of the day away but fell asleep because I got way too comfortable. If I can gain this much from his books and videos (which provide excellent information), I would really like to learn fromt the man personally, particularly since so much is lost in translation from author to book.

Does anyone here know Mr. Frantzis well enough to speak to his martial abilities?

Doug M

Walter Joyce

12-09-2003, 03:49 PM

Two quick points.

First, giving someone a hard time for making money at what they do is a very weak argument.

Second, I can speak to Kumar's abilities and I have. His fighting skill is still quite high, and before his car accidents he was flat out scary.

Doug

12-09-2003, 04:41 PM

He was in more than one accident? I thought he was in one that left his spine in a mess.

Do you have specifics about this particular injury (by praticular, I mean any details that are not in his books that would not be a violation of personal trust)? What about the second one?

What do you think about when you refer to him as "scary"?

Thanks,

Doug M

scholar

12-10-2003, 03:29 PM

Bruce, spiritual? Right...

He has some kung fu, and seems not to care who may get hurt by it.

So, if you just want to learn to hurt people then he's your guy - for a price.

Doug

12-11-2003, 03:08 PM

When I posted this thread, the intent was to find out why people here were badmouthing Mr. Frantzis and to provide detailed information to support such claims. The intent is not to get yours and get out--remark against him and that is all. The point is to be specific with reasons why.

Please keep this in mind if anyone here is going to post similar replies. It does nothing for an online forum if someone adds an insult for the sake of an insult: it gets us nowhere, and the result is more confusion.

Please back your claims with definite reasons.

Thanks,

Doug M

scholar

12-11-2003, 07:00 PM

Well, my experiences with Bruce & Co. are personal. I've met and talked with him and some of his current and former students.

The stories they tell me all seem to come down to that Bruce indeed has better martial ability than your average T'ai Chi teacher and, even further, that he really gets off on hurting people for no reason. You can believe that or not, I don't care, but I'm not going to go into what I've been told any more specifically because it could possibly compromise the people who told me the specific stories.

What I can tell you is that I have met Bruce myself, and I have watched him make a petulant, ignoble ass out of himself in front of dozens of people. That I have seen for myself...

Internal Boxer

12-12-2003, 07:11 AM

"And re pushing hands - receive and then issue is a pretty good strategy to me. If he was all about brute force then he wouldn't be beating anyone with any skill. Unless we're all training a useless method that falls apart under an assault of mass...."

Kaitain, mate, the point I was trying to make was that a smaller guy who advocates tendon neigong exercise, ie. hammer work, etc in relation to a much bigger guy who advocates "chi" work resulted in an interesting result. But I would consider that people of equal skills regarding Taiji listening and issueing would favour the larger guy.

Off topic ---- I suppose my beef is all the so called chi development peeps who focus on that as the development of internal power rather than neigong and body mechanics. To be honest I am pretty sick of the people who think Internal MA masters are somehow the ultimate deadlist fighters, and view pro MMA guys as a lower level of skill. I certainly view myself as MMA rather than IMA even though my forum name suggests otherwise. Having said that there are MMA eltists just as much as internal eltists who cause all the problems for everyone. But I would certainly view the MMA eltists offer a stronger argument since they will put their money where their mouth is.

Buddy

12-12-2003, 06:00 PM

Syd,
Bull**** detector? What you said is some of the biggest [Minor insult removed] I've ever heard. You know all this from a couple of photos? You mean you don't even have rumor and ennuendo to back up your opinion? Kumar's neigong is quite profound and in his day he could pound most to the ground, bud. [Minor insult removed]
Buddy

Syd

12-12-2003, 09:20 PM

Be nice

backbreaker

12-13-2003, 08:26 PM

We're all in the same gang(neijia)

Buddy

12-13-2003, 08:33 PM

Syd,
[Removed insult directed towards Buddy]Let me formally invite you to Plymouth Massachusetts to repeat your comments to my face. You have some sort of special power that allows this "subtle qualities of discernment" based on a picture?

[I want you to know I am trying to remove all the insults here to prevent locking of the thread.]

Syd

12-14-2003, 12:21 AM

Nothing worth keeping here

Buddy

12-14-2003, 09:36 AM

Kettle, you're black.
Syd, If you will review the posts, while I belittled your foolish idea about "knowing" someone from a photograph, I did not resort to a personal attack until you decided to. [Removed minor insult]
Buddy

Syd

12-14-2003, 10:28 AM

Nothing worth keeping

scholar

12-14-2003, 10:33 AM

Buddy makes a good point about how to conduct a proper argument, concentrate on the ideas, not the personalities. Which is why I've stayed out of you guys' exchange up until now. Discussing good form in arguing is way more interesting for me than talking about Bruce, at any rate!

Unfortunately "Go back to reading your books, son" is a bit insulting, and exacerbated the situation to its present remove from the realm of ideas.

You guys are on opposite sides of the world (Syd's in Australia), otherwise we'd have an interesting showdown. Erle likes to fight, Bruce likes to fight, presumably their students do, too...

Cheers guys,
S.

Doug

12-14-2003, 03:59 PM

Discussing good form in arguing is way more interesting for me than talking about Bruce, at any rate!

But this is off topic and should be conducted in private messages or in another thread.

Guys, please don't degenerate this thread into a stupid argument. Its purpose is not to start arguments but to get claims and (as it turns out) opinions out so that these run-and-gun insults about Mr. Frantzis can be clarified or explained and, then, (as one can expect on a discussion board) refuted.

This thread is not a waste of time unless some people make it a waste. I am asking that the insults are reserved for private messages, not the discussion board.

Doug M

scholar

12-14-2003, 04:31 PM

For an effective refutation, however, there has to be ground rules for argument that the arguers will accept. Otherwise it will degenerate (as it has in this case and many, many others) into name calling and insults, especially in a thread started by someone asking why so many people in the martial arts world seem to want to call Bruce names and insult him.

So maybe I wasn't so off-topic after all...

Doug

12-14-2003, 04:58 PM

Mr. Scholar,

Please refer to the question at the beginning of the thread. I ask in no way for people to start arguments. I ask that these points be brought forth in one place so they may be clarified.

There have been many unproven, unnecessary remarks posted about Bruce Kumar Frantzis. I have not been able to find anything bad about him on the Internet except for, remarkably, right here. Here, anyone can say anything without proving it (as is the case within any environment where proof is not necessary but an opinion is always available). I posted this to, perhaps, expand upon these claims as either more likely possible or false.

Do not take my use of your post as an attack on you; it was merely a starting point to explain my point. I apologize if this is how my previous post was taken, but it was not the intent.

Doug M

backbreaker

12-14-2003, 05:04 PM

http://www.energyarts.com/hires/bagua/fighting/fightmov.html

I found this clip at another discussion forum. If B.K. Frantziz is considered higher level than Sam Masich or can really beat him, I would say he is very good by my standards.

scholar

12-14-2003, 05:26 PM

Doug,

Fair enough.

I'll restate my contention, without the levity this time. My experiences with Bruce and his and his students' (to me) odd behavior that I have witnessed are personal, not hearsay, but there is no way that I can prove or realistically substantiate them here. I'm sure that Bruce & Co. think that I am odd, too, for all of that. So while I am convinced of the validity of my judgments regarding his level (I have some pretty profound Nei Kung, too, and am nowhere near my teachers' level to boot) I recognize that anyone else is necessarily going to take what I say as pure opinion only, with a big grain of salt. At the very least people will hopefully get an idea that they should be careful when evaluating the claims of any self-proclaimed master.

The bottom line of my opinion on the matter is that while he definitely is far above the (admittedly rather poor) Western average in his martial abilities; he and his students don't publicly demonstrate the character that I would want in a teacher, for what that's worth. Far more people obviously find him very satisfactory than not, and good for them. I have a different agenda, a very demanding agenda to be sure. If people don't like it, they don't have to study with me, just as I don't have to study with Bruce. At this point the discussion foundered for me, so I found myself unable to comment meaningfully here until Buddy brought up his point about personalities/ideas.

Cheers,
S.

Doug

12-14-2003, 05:43 PM

S.,

Thank you for explanation, which I find to be nicely put without being insulting (being an outsider to the Bruce Kumar Frantzis school) as well as a thorough as can be without getting mean or burley. I very much appreciate it.

And I apologize once more for implying unintended offense. This is so easy to do on an online discussion board.

Thanks again,

Doug M

count

12-14-2003, 05:53 PM

Man, this thread is painful. Doug, Why are your so persistant? If you were as persistant about learning martial arts you would be the supreme master of all masters by now. Wake up! This is the internet. KFQ Forums no less. :rolleyes: What you have here is a lot of hear say or people with obvious agendas in reply. You have someone with actual experience and you have people with one quarter the time and one tenth the knowledge debating him. Nothing but stories, tall tales and sifu worshipers.

What do you really expect to learn. Did you just post to defend Bruce? I'm sure he doesn't need you too and I'm sure he could care less what the internet opinions are. Were you really interested in learning some of his material and doubtful because of the internet accusations and second hand stories. I doubt it because it's easy enough to check it our for yourself and form your own opinions based on reality which is what adults do. Don't tell me it's a money thing becuase in California where your profile says you live, I can name at least 2 of Bruce's certified instructers who have a deep understaning of what he teaches and charge very little for instruction. So what's the point of keeping this alive. It's not evan good for a laugh anymore.

Doug

12-14-2003, 06:12 PM

Read the original post. Look at the above post about arguments. Please take this seriously if you want to contribute to the thread even though you do not take it seriously.

Insults do nothing for the question at hand and will not affect me in the least. Why waste your time? I am not insulting anyone, so why do you feel the need to do so? It makes you look bad.

If you need to insult me, private message me. Thank you.

Doug M

count

12-14-2003, 06:25 PM

The point IS about internet arguments. There is no other question at hand except to further internet arguments. Obviously, even though you haven't figured out how internet search engines function, you found what you were searching for. Another internet argument. So why do you get so indignant when people have given you what you were searching for? I've already answered your questions from the original post. Just read it and don't take it so personal, the answers are there.

scholar

12-14-2003, 06:27 PM

At the risk of sounding facetious (well, it is just KFQ forums after all), Count seemed to be indulging in a little "sifu worship" of his own, there, didn't he?

count

12-14-2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by scholar
At the risk of sounding facetious (well, it is just KFQ forums after all), Count seemed to be indulging in a little "sifu worship" of his own, there, didn't he?
Um, no, where did you get that idea? Bruce is not my teacher at all. Although, your comments and generalizations of the state of martial arts in the west seems to fit that category somewhat.

Syd

12-14-2003, 07:56 PM

Buddy

12-14-2003, 09:26 PM

It's not my style to be rude to people or to resort to lower order discussion, unless? Well, unless somebody jumps on me without due regard for intelligent discussion or debate. I felt I had just cause and said my part...

Unless what Syd?
You called me an invertabrate. OK maybe you don't understand what you said. That means spineless right? That is slang for coward here in the US. That's why I am am happy to invite to repeat that accusation to my face. I didn't jump on YOU. I jumped on your stupid and baseless assumption about Bruce based on a picture. I mean really. Does anyone else out on this forum think that is a logical conclusion? I don't know you from any other Ozzy so I have only what you write here to base my opinion upon. You have not offered any intelligent discussion or debate whatsoever. You have not, as I mentioned, even offered an opinion based on rumour and innuendo. I am a former student of Bruce's and not normally given to defending him. Believe me, even in his current state of health he would pound you to the ground. You have no cause and no case. I'm 46 years old Syd and do not suffer fools gladly. When you next address me, do so with the manners I assume either your parents or teachers must have taught you. And use your real name.
Buddy

Syd

12-14-2003, 10:01 PM

*Yawn* Are you done?

I didn't say I sought to challenge B.K, and I didn't state he had no skill; you seem determined to seek me out regardless of this fact. I merely stated that based on what I have read and seen of the guy and *other* determinations made by myself, I would not buy his materials or choose to train with him.

And if your attitude to others is a representation of the man then this only furthers my opinion to the negative.

Deal with it...

Ray Pina

12-15-2003, 07:56 AM

Let's see: 25 years of training under 4 teachers. The last one a true master... back and forth to Chinatown, two, three times a week ... tuition, tolls, gas, parking tickets.

I consider what I learn to be a treasure!!!!!

Now Bruce has gone to Japan and Taiwan and traveled all over to study with all types of people ... and he should charge what?

Frankly, I'd be suspect if I was going to learn from him for three hours and he charged less than $300. How much treasure would he be willing to share with me, a stranger, in three hours?

You think peope give away the good stuff so easily? I see tons of people walk through our school doors and are shown impressive things ... some come back, some don't, some even dismiss it. Those of us who stayed around, we get shown some other stuff.

On another note: "I heard" or "I read" is equal to horse $hit.

scholar

12-15-2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by count

Um, no, where did you get that idea? Bruce is not my teacher at all. Although, your comments and generalizations of the state of martial arts in the west seems to fit that category somewhat.

Really? I don't see how...

I should say something here about your blanket asumption that Bruce has 10 times more experience than I do, since you don't want to call it "sifu worship." You forget, I know Bruce. I've seen his stuff. Sure, he can fight, but so can I. I'm not afraid of him (or you), at all. If he or any of his students were to attack me, verbally or physically, they'd find out why I'm not afraid of him. While I don't claim to have mastered 14 different martial arts as Bruce has claimed, I know that I've been also been to China and Taiwan many times myself, and learned technique from at least one of the arts that Bruce teaches that he has never seen. I have a few tricks up my sleeve! You may continue to believe what you like, if unilateral fantasies make you happy, but that won't change the simple truth that your assumptions about my level are still way off base.

I wasn't criticizing Bruce's technical level, I was saying that I don't care for his personality. It is also quite clear to me that he doesn't care for mine, and I know he wouldn't mind telling other people about it if asked. Fair is fair.

To paraphrase your own criticisms of Doug, this is just the internet, Count, and if someone pointing out that the posts you make betray obvious symptoms of just what you are criticizing others for upsets you, then maybe you should take up another hobby. It would be better for your blood pressure...

count

12-15-2003, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by scholar
Really? I don't see how...
It was your comments about your sifus and your "profound" neigung skills and your critisim of the state of martial arts in other areas that smacks of sifu worship.

I should say something here about your blanket asumption that Bruce has 10 times more experience than I do, since you don't want to call it "sifu worship."
Actually, that comment is intended towards someone else, but if the shoe fits...

You forget, I know Bruce. I've seen his stuff. Sure, he can fight, but so can I. I'm not afraid of him (or you), at all. If he or any of his students were to attack me, verbally or physically, they'd find out why I'm not afraid of him. While I don't claim to have mastered 14 different martial arts as Bruce has claimed, I know that I've been also been to China and Taiwan many times myself, and learned technique from at least one of the arts that Bruce teaches that he has never seen. I have a few tricks up my sleeve! You may continue to believe what you like, if unilateral fantasies make you happy, but that won't change the simple truth that your assumptions about my level are still way off base.
I'm happy for you that you that you have such profound skills and have harvested so many fruits in your experience in training and learning martial arts. Tricks and techniques are like the fruits of a tree. Maybe tasty, but not the roots. Still, I made no assumptions about you in any of my posts.

I wasn't criticizing Bruce's technical level, I was saying that I don't care for his personality. It is also quite clear to me that he doesn't care for mine, and I know he wouldn't mind telling other people about it if asked. Fair is fair.
Fair is fair, you are entitled to your opinions and even entitled to stating them publically. Personally, I have no opinions of Bruce, I don't even know the man. Yet you assume I am defending my sifu. LOL! Think about it for a minute. I haven't made any comment or assumtion about Bruce or his skills except that I felt he is capable of defending himself and possibly ignores internet chatter about him.

To paraphrase your own criticisms of Doug, this is just the internet, Count, and if someone pointing out that the posts you make betray obvious symptoms of just what you are criticizing others for upsets you, then maybe you should take up another hobby. It would be better for your blood pressure...
Obvious? Obviously something I posted touched a sensitive spot in you. Not one of my comments was directed at you personally, although you have taken them all personally and felt the need to defend Doug as well, He does fine for himself judging from his e-mail. As for me, you don't know what my blood pressure is nor do you know what I consider hobbies. One hobby might be posting bait on internet forum to see who bites. Certainly doesn't get my blood pressure up. Hobbies are just for laughs and I got a few reading some of these posts. As for you, I'll say it again, if the shoe fits...

count

12-15-2003, 01:12 PM

In reviewing the comments you wrote to me privately, I would like to publically state, I applaud your desire and effort to bring the level of dialog to a higher level. If I have mistaken your intentions by the tone of your original post, I appologize. I don't necessarily agree with some of what you think but I trust you are sincere in what you told me your motivations were.

Having been a member of this forum for more than 5 years I may become cynical when the topics are personal, questioning the same controversial intructors like Kumar and Erle again and again. When you ask "what's so bad about "him"" or "his principles, you are bound to get those answers which cause the endless arguments.

Maybe if you could speak to how the principles of neigong laid out in Mr. Frantzis book have served you and how it applies to your martial arts, it might be interesting to discuss.