grrr

[David Jamieson]

So, i wake up the other morning to one of the national morning shows here and there is someone on there purporting to instruct self defense methods for women.

Man, by the time it ended I was up and I was angry about it LOL.

If I have to watch one more convoluted, "do this, then that, and presto your free" demonstration, I am gonna pop like a baked onion.

Did anyone else in my neck of the woods see that on Canada AM?

Self Defense is not freakin Tae bo ladies and germs, there is no "1,2,3 and you're free" solutions about it in any context at any time.

I personally believe it is wholly irresponsible of those who instruct to try and pass that mindset off as valid training. Self defense is often one of the most difficult abilities to acquire from structured martial arts training. There are far too many variables involved in reality situations to even think for a minute that there is a quick 30 day course or a weekend seminar that you can take to make your self able to defend yourself "in all situations".

Heavy weight champion boxers go down in a situation wherethey have trained for years and teh whole thing is up front and in your face.

How does anyone think that a couple of classes with a couple of judo moves and some punching or even dirty moves are going to help them from a blindside attack?

How many of you guys took a while before you could apply Chin Na with any effectiveness on a resisting partner? How long did it take you?

Agree? Disagree?

How can Kungfu training address this pet peeve of mine?

btw, I am a big advocate of awareness training over all contact training when it comes to urban defense strategies. Contact training is secondary imo in this regards. This show mentioned nothing of methods and knowledge to increase ones knowledge of perceiving the surroundings or even avoiding certain surroundings.

again, I reiterate...grrrr:mad:

cheers

[truewrestler]

99% of martial arts

0% of combat sports

:p

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

It is all about the Benjamins and how to get them away from the unsuspecting prey.

Yes, in this regard I equal muggers and people that run BS SD courses.
Both are after your money, one takes it by force the other cons you so that you hand it over willingly.

I too say ... grrr :mad:

[backbreaker]

I agree completely. You are absolutely correct and have exposed many martial arts in one post. I look at martial arts as skills which require hard work and training. If I don't train hard I cannot do chin na. If I train hard then I can. You basically need real fighting skills along with power and conditioning so I avoid all that self-defense stuff because it probably won't really give you more confidence that you can fight.

[Falcor]

The best self-defense demo/seminar/etc I ever saw was one where the instructor (Karate guy with LEO background) basically said you have three options: get a gun, spend a long time studying a real MA, or forget about SD techniques and think anger. I'll get to the last in a minute. The first optin he said was not very good becasue of legal issues, as well as training and the fac that many people either freeze or miss when it comes time to _really_ use it. The second option is not really an option but a luxury if you're thinking about SD becasue you never know when you're gonna need it and it may take you time to develop decent skills. The third is what he said should be taught in SD workhops becasue in the end, for a typical civilian who's job and everyday work is NOT to encounter trained fighters or dangerous criminals, the mental attitude of releasing a self-preserving aggresion is the key. Becasue a bad guy is gonna go after the easiest prey, and he/she who simply does not present yourself as such is gonna be the survivor. He broke it down into three stages. The first stage is before the encounter. Don't look like you're easy pickings and be aware of what's going on around you. This in and of itself could be a whole book. The second stage was engagement - you have the option of simply complying and losing money (if that is what the bad guy is after), de-excalating any conflict if you're involved in one, or fighting for your life. The first two are preferred. However, sometimes you don't have the options available and IF you are forced to fight for your life, and at this point you've got nothing to lose BUT your life, then the rule is RESIST, RESIST, RESIST, FIGHTI,FIGHT,FIGHT. Unless you have a hefty number of months and years under your belt, forget techniques becasue that's only good for showing in demos. Just fight with what nature gace you - nails, teeth, knees, elbows, everything you've got. And make as much noise and commotion at the same time. That he felt was the only realistic self defense short of actual MA training. Cool seminar, very short too. Other guys came up and did little demos and fancy techniques, but he came up with and did no demos, but gave this little speech, and it was followed by a student of his that was an assault victim before MA training who gave a real-life story, and that was it. Some people in the audience didn't get it - they were asking for "where's the cool techniques" - which goes to show that a flood of these idiotic demos are actually detrimental, but others were nodding their heads so maybe they got it.

[David Jamieson]

TW-

I know you're just joshing when you say that you think combat sports is self defense. It's a sport, and frankly any athlete even a good boxer can get stabbed, shot, beaten with a bat or jumped by multiples and left for dead.

That's what I mean when I say awareness is of more value than contact training.

People in teh mma world are famous for the phrase "train like you fight" but they never add "according to the rules of the sport you are involved in". ergo, they train like they fight, but they don't fight any more realistically than hard core kung fu guys in that sense.

maybe moreso than your average mr.miyagi vs david carradine type outfit, but not all KF schools subscribe to that thinking. Just like not all combat sports schools really teach anything of great use either.

A good jj school is just as hard to find as a good kf school, trust me on that one. There are plenty of crap mma schools out there operating away alongside all the so called mckwoons and mcdojos. ( a mckwoon is a kungfu school that calls their training hall a dojo :D )

anyway, is it because the real meat and potatoes of self defense is all about examinig limitations of the self as opposed to capabilities?

cheers

[Volcano Admim]

women slef defense?

hey thats a nice way of getting *****

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Fully agree 100% with what Falcor posted, my own research and experiences point to the same.

To be honest, sometimes I feel that studying MA/fighting sports can actually be limiting for actual real-life fighting and self-defense situations.

In the end it is your will to survive and to do what it takes more than any technique you trained.

[backbreaker]

[/list] Not having a referee could benefit either person especially a fighter. A boxer might know what is illegal in boxing and use it cleverly. It might be worse to fight a fighter in the streetAnd I would want a technique I know I can do if someone's messing with me

[backbreaker]

Think anger?

[backbreaker]

My Muay Thai Kru trainer once said anyone who says muay thai is not good on the street would get destoyed on the street by Muay Thai, or something like that.

[Volcano Admim]

oh yeah? really?

[Liokault]

T'ai Ji Monkey


To be honest, sometimes I feel that studying MA/fighting sports can actually be limiting for actual real-life fighting and self-defense situations.

You have to seperate self defense from fighting.

backbreaker





Not having a referee could benefit either person especially a fighter. A boxer might know what is illegal in boxing and use it cleverly. It might be worse to fight a fighter in the street

It dont matter how many illegal moves the boxer knows if the guy who just asked him the time pushes a knife into him before he knows hes in trouble.

[Falcor]

Oh, yeah the think anger thing. My other post was too long and I forgot.

He basically said that in an SD encounter, you're either gonna get one of two emotions, probably some odd mixture of both: fear, and anger. Fear for your life, etc, and anger at the intrusion, violation, etc. It will be very difficult to keep yourself completely calm - people spend years perfecting that and entire semi-religious ethos have developed around that concept. It's best to try to stay calm, but if yo're gonna fall into an emotional well, fall into anger, he said. Choose to fall into anger. Becasue if it comes to the point where you _have_ to fight, then that anger will fuel you. Also if you show fear, the predators _will_ pick up on it and they will exploit it and you. And this anger should also be what you're fighting with when you fight/resist back. Forget techniques, forget SD lessons, unless you've got years of MA experience, then if you are Joe/Jane Schmo fighting back, fight back "as if you've got the wrath of god in you". Becasue anything less and the aggressor will win.

[rogue]

My Muay Thai Kru trainer once said anyone who says muay thai is not good on the street would get destoyed on the street by Muay Thai, or something like that. Yeah Muay Thai is the ultimate street art. I've never heard of anybody who does Muay Thai getting hurt or killed on the street!:rolleyes: That way of thinking is as dangerous to the user as non-sport fighters thinking they'll hit the guy with a pressure point strike and knock him out. Muay Thai is a great art but you need a different mindset on the street.

Falcor, good stuff. Check out Strong on Defense by Sandford Strong and The Gift of Fear.

[Black Jack]

In my viewpoint when strictly talking about violent encounters in the outside world the term used should be self preservation and not self defense.

I think the main point is to be doing something. Be it a traditional martial art or a local short order IMPACT style program. No matter what direction you go you have to start getting your comprehension with the basics from somewhere.

After that the responsibility to address the truth is up to each and every individual on how they view the self preservation mindset.

[Toby]

http://www.wardysplace.com/News88.html
http://www.ozbiker.org/news_current/cheaters_kirzon_5_4_03.htm
http://www.ozbiker.org/news_current/cheaters_fazio_14_5_03.htm
http://dinosmc.com/bikernew.htm (search for "fazio")
http://www.postnewspapers.com.au/20030510/news/019.shtml

This happened earlier this year in my city. Boxer was a national Golden Gloves boxer who owns a gym and moves in high circles (his friend John Kizon is (allegedly ;)) a well known fighter and high up in organised crime and drugs). Boxer stood no chance against a few bikers. Dunno if the bikers had any MA training, but I doubt it. 2 or 3 groups of bikers pretty much run organised crime in our city. Cops are terrified of them. They blatantly break laws in cops faces that would have an ordinary citizen thrown in the big house and get away with it. Example?

http://www.bikernews.net/getnews.cfm?article=665
http://www.bikernews.net/getnews.cfm?article=883

Everyone agreed it was Graeme Slater, but he walked.

[Tak]

Another example of a very proficient combat sport participant getting wasted on the street, Alex Gong (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24285).

[Falcor]

Some interesting and good points raised:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=22875

FYI