swords/knives

[Keng Geng]

How significant do you see the knives/swords (whichever ones you use and consider as part of your system) to your training. Do you feel they are useful? Do you know how to use them? Or is it only a form that you practice?

[Ernie]

funny you ask
a long while ago i was offered the knives and i turned it down , i all ready have a good foundation in filipino weapons and have been stick and knife sparring for years ,
so i figured inside game wing chun out side game filipino , boxing footwork and stradagies ,
been working great ,
now here is the funny thing the more i refined my action and foot work , the better i got , the more it simulated wing chun baat jam do footwork and concept ,
know i see the beauty and effectiveness of the wing chun knife training , beyond the forms , it's the feel and mind set ,
not to mention the speed with interruptable stability that you get ,
i don't think you can completely express wing chun until you have a good foundation in the knife , and you spar with the knife there is a much higher level of sensitivity you develop

just my current 2 cents , might change my mind in a week:D

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Ernie
i all ready have a good foundation in filipino weapons and have been stick and knife sparring for years What makes a good foundation in filipino weapons.


now here is the funny thing the more i refined my action and foot work , the better i got , the more it simulated wing chun baat jam do footwork and concept
What is the Bat Jam Do footwork?

[Ernie]

a good foundation ,
simple the ability to use them in a live environment , not drills ,
and to understand the dynamics and body mechanics of each weapon or combination of weapon , single stick, double stick, single knife , double knife , one stick one knife '' long and short''
dos manos ''two handed weapons .
12 angles of attack , heaven and earth ''high and low '' male and female triangles ,
then rhythm , beats half beats , and broken , spar it all get a feel for your balance timing , sensitivity and sense of body position , and the list goes on ,,,,

as for the knife footwork I hate using Chinese terms but I think they call it goat ma or something like that .
I prefer to use angles and long step , instead of 45 degree you use more of a 90 degree , the body move before the hands to eliminate target area ,
you can also work of the 60 degree but this requires diagrams to show ,

what's your definition ?

[hunt1]

Cant let a thread on something other than HFY die

Knife form is a form I practice often. I dont practice it to learn how to fight with weapons. All wing chun forms can be knife forms. You can learn to fight with weapons without any form at all.
The reason that Yip Man knife forms vary from 12 to 8 to 4 sections is that all you need is to understand the concepts, the proper use of the body , proper energy and proper footwork. Once you have that the sections are just good exercise. The 12 section form is great training but the 4 section form can give you all you need.

Yes the knives are useful. Can I use them, dont know guess I need to get a job at Benihana and find out. Have trained vs filipino stick players. The WC concepts work just fine with sticks. No reason why the wouldnt work with knives. Have only done knife vs sword, knife and long pole a very few times.

Knife form is very significant. Dont think anyone can truly understand and use WC in all situations if the concepts of the form arent known and understood.

[yuanfen]

The wing chun bot jam do form does many things. By no means a complete list:


1.it enhances the power development that occurs with good understanding of all the other forms. Wing chun bjd motions are different from hung gar or clf double weapons which have their own unique usages.

2. it helps immensely with "closing" since it has additional footwork of its own.

3. It assists developing both long hand and short motions.

[PaulH]

I still turtle steadily my way into the fast track of BJD, but from what I understand of the construction of the BJD knifes they have the following qualities:

1. Heavy and hard at the back suitable for heavy duty blocks.
2. Light and soft on the cutting side suitable for cutting action.
3. The tip is sharp suitable for rapid thrusts.

Combine this inherent Yin and Yang qualities in the knifes with the dual role of both knifes helping and coordinating each other's action in attacks and defenses, I would venture to say that it is WC training of the special kind!

Regards,

PH

[yuanfen]

Paul H---True! But much depends on the hands that hold the knives.

[foolinthedeck]

is there an element of 'weight' training also?
not in the usual sense but simply because the knifes do weigh quite a bit.

doing knife moves such as gang/gaan sau etc really hurts in the shoulders, and thats keeping the arms and shoulders relaxed, i'm not saying that anyone should use the weight of them and tense up - not at all!!!

just that my relaxation is improved by using the knifes, also power and ability to stay relaxed while being powerful. also endurance - definitely.

also, seeing all hand movements as dangerous attacks to the centre not just movements. also, footwork, also, energy at point of contact.

[Andrew Williams]

Weapons training of any kind should be a timely reminder of that which we practice is designed to hurt, maim and kill, that its' (VT) training should not be taken lightly, and that we should remember that many of those who came before us died or were badly hurt in VT's development. Whilst it is relatively easy to forget this whilst practicing many other aspects of VT (evidence is found in the many discussions which take place on lists like this and many of the gwoons I have visited), when one does practice with weapons, with any sort of realism, the inherent dangers are very obvious.

So in answer to, “How significant do you see the knives/swords (whichever ones you use and consider as part of your system) to your training. Do you feel they are useful? Do you know how to use them? Or is it only a form that you practice?”

The significance is in the idea that once weapons are involved someone (and most likely both participants) is/are going to get badly hurt, perhaps die. And that unless one is prepared to use the weapon it is best left at home safely tucked away.

Yes knife training is useful, with the above in mind one is better able to prepare for real confrontations, the emotional maelstrom of conflict. You are able to ask yourself “what am I training for.”

What one gets from the physical act of the forms performance, IMHO, is secondary to the above. So saying I believe there are no secrets in the weapons forms. Given the plethora of weapons that might be employed against us there is a need for added footwork, hand/arm movements and body positions, but these should not fall outside what is recognized as VT movement patterns and structures (as I know them).

Do I know how to use them? Well I hope that what I practice has value. I can say with conviction that there is a level of nervousness that exists when the knives come out, this a reaction to said realism. I have real experience with sharp edge weapons, they scare me.

Technically, understanding the use of angle and wrist movement cannot be overvalued in knife training, two things that need not be quite so well understood, developed or employed in the hand forms.

Andrew Williams.

[yuanfen]

I can say with conviction that there is a level of nervousness that exists when the knives come out, this a reaction to said realism. I have real experience with sharp edge weapons, they scare me.

Technically, understanding the use of angle and wrist movement cannot be overvalued in knife training, two things that need not be quite so well understood, developed or employed in the hand forms.

Andrew Williams.
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On the first point-me too.

On the second-exactly

[AztecaPreist]

In my training I have come to understand weapons as from this point of view. At the time of their birth (the weapons) they were created for survival during war and their time of need. As time progressed so have the choice of weapons. In my own opinion I feel it is good to practice that part of the system to keep it alive for some of the body mechanics from the weapons are used through out the system and training keeps the body refined, as basically the bat jahm is just an extension of the hands. I beleive that if you let one part of the system die then it is no longer pure and how can it survive if not taught in its most purest form. But thenthat is my opinion not what I am telling anyone they should do.


Marty R (not Marty G.):D

[Andrew Williams]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]I can say with conviction that there is a level of nervousness that exists when the knives come out, this a reaction to said realism. I have real experience with sharp edge weapons, they scare me.

Technically, understanding the use of angle and wrist movement cannot be overvalued in knife training, two things that need not be quite so well understood, developed or employed in the hand forms.

Andrew Williams.
-----------------------------------------------
On the first point-me too.

On the second-exactly.

---Hi Joy.

A mature student of mine, who had no previous martial experience, was struggling to convert his intellectual understanding on what was being shown him into the physical act. In an effort to foster a more harmonious approach I taught him the knives first, beginning with tactical reasoning. This seemed to alter his cognitive focus. To achieve his tactical goals he had to develop an understanding of wrist and body position.

Cheers Joy
Andrew W.