Offer input on my new routine

[FatherDog]

So, after breaking my foot and laying around for three months drinking and watching the Muppet show, I was pretty **** weak. My upper body, in particular (always a problem area) had deteriorated to pathetic levels. I went with a Westside style program, and made some okay gains. Then I cut from 208 to 182 in three weeks for NAGA, and promptly ****ed away most of my strength gains doing so.

So, NAGA being over, I'm bulking up and trying to get my strength back up. While I liked Westside, particularly the box squats and the overall emphasis on the posterior chain, it had a few problems for me:

1) Time. The Westside workouts, particularly the max effort days, took a lot of time, and between classes and everything else I don't have a lot to spare; a lot of the time I'm trying to fit my weight workouts in on my lunch hour. That was really tight with Westside, and that meant that a lot of the time I was skimping on my warmups, which was probably a contributing factor to problem 2 -

2) DOMS. Westside workouts left me sore, sore, sore, and that made grappling and muay thai class really, really annoying.

So, coming back, I'm not sure if I want to go back to Westside or not for the time being. I looked over my exercise stuff directory, yanked this routine out of storage, and modified it a little to fit my current needs.

Mon - Bench press 5X5, lat pulldowns 5X5
Tue - Deadlift 5X5, weighted crunches 5X5
Wed - Bench press 5X5, lat pulldowns 5X5
Thu - Box squat 5X5, weighted crunches 5X5
Fri - Bench press 5X5, lat pulldowns 5X5
Sat - Deadlift 5X5, weighted crunches 5X5

I'm using lat pulldowns because for some reason they seem to hit my lats much harder than bent over rows. I dunno why, but that's how it goes.

Figured on adding 5 pounds to each successive workout, until I can't make 5 reps, then either

A) keep lifting at that weight till I can, then up the weight and repeat (stubborn method)

B) Drop back 20 lbs and work up again (wave/neo-Pavel method)

C) Switch exercise to a similar one (bench to close grip or incline bench, Deadlift to Rumanian deadlift, etc) (neo-Westside method)

So, it's got big compound lifts, heavy weight, low reps, and a defined progression. And I'm hitting pretty much all the major muscle groups, and working the antagonists on the same day in succession.

So -

1) What do you guys think of the routine in general? Good idea, bad idea? Suggestions?

2) Suggestions for which of the three progression methods would seem best?

3) The muscle groups this /doesn't/ hit are calves, traps, and neck. The calves and traps I don't mind skimping on a bit, but I'd really like to do neckwork, as it seems to help my grappling a lot. There's a 4-way flexion neck machine at my gym that seems to work my neck really well. Any suggestions on sets, reps, or number of times per week? I was figuring maybe twice a week at 4X8, with the same five pound progression as the rest of them.

[Ford Prefect]

Hey Fatherdog,

Not a bad program at all. I really like 5x5's and think they are a good keystone, to build the rest of your routines off of. I would lay off the volume though and mix it up a little more. I think 5x5's are too intensive to do 3x/week especially when you'd be grappling along with it.

Also as per your cycling, 5x5's are usually done differently. They are generally done with you doing a weight for 5 reps and then trying to do the same weight for the next 4 sets. When you can complete all 5 reps in all 5 sets, you move up in weight. If you could only do 14 or less reps total, then you started too high and need to use a lighter weight. This is a pretty effective way of doing 5x5's.

I know you don't like DOMS but I don't really see a way to avoid it if you are bulking. I'd up the volume on individual days, but only train each body part once per week.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Not a bad program at all. I really like 5x5's and think they are a good keystone, to build the rest of your routines off of. I would lay off the volume though and mix it up a little more. I think 5x5's are too intensive to do 3x/week especially when you'd be grappling along with it.


I was trying to overload a little on bench, since that's where I'm really weak. Possibly knock Saturdays off? It would be nice to have another full rest day...



Also as per your cycling, 5x5's are usually done differently. They are generally done with you doing a weight for 5 reps and then trying to do the same weight for the next 4 sets. When you can complete all 5 reps in all 5 sets, you move up in weight. If you could only do 14 or less reps total, then you started too high and need to use a lighter weight. This is a pretty effective way of doing 5x5's.


Ah, okay, that makes sense.



I know you don't like DOMS but I don't really see a way to avoid it if you are bulking. I'd up the volume on individual days, but only train each body part once per week.

Not really trying specifically for hypertrophy; just trying to get stronger. And I don't mind DOMS to some degree, it's just that with Westside I was getting a /lot/ of it, and it was lasting for a long while.

The problem with upping the volume on individual days is that it takes longer for the workout then, and that's really a problem. Like I said, most of the time I'm trying to fit this in on my lunch hour.

[Cheese Dog]

Ford is probably right about it being a little to much volume for most people (I know it would be for me!) Maybe you could try 3X5 instead?

The only other change I would make would be pullups instead of pulldowns on the lat machine, even if I had to hang weights from a belt to stay within the 5 reps.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Cheese Dog

The only other change I would make would be pullups instead of pulldowns on the lat machine, even if I had to hang weights from a belt to stay within the 5 reps.

That would be an option if I could do more than two pullups these days. :(

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect

Also as per your cycling, 5x5's are usually done differently. They are generally done with you doing a weight for 5 reps and then trying to do the same weight for the next 4 sets. When you can complete all 5 reps in all 5 sets, you move up in weight. If you could only do 14 or less reps total, then you started too high and need to use a lighter weight. This is a pretty effective way of doing 5x5's.

If you can only get 14 or less reps total? Um dude 5x5 is 25 reps. Did you mean to say 14 reps?

[CD Lee]

Ok Father,

I like routine a lot for your goals. Except I am with Ford here. I would lower the volume. But I don't know you. Too much for me based on experience. Great approach to lifting however.

Also, you ARE hitting your traps with the deadlift, once you get the weight going pretty good. I started on deads at less than 135 a little while back, and felt I had to do shrugs to make up for this. Now, however, after around 5 good cycles over 6 months, I am deadlifting 280 X 5 last workout. Let me say, I can feel the traps working now! I feel a LOT of stuff working now on the deads. The powerlifters on Dr. Squats site say deads build huge traps. I wouldn't worry about it with your routine.

You can tell I am out of the 'club', but I am going to ask the dumb question. What are DOMS? Days Off Missed Sore? Days Of Muslce Soreness? Duly Oppressed - Muscle Soreness?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by CD Lee
Ok Father,

I like routine a lot for your goals. Except I am with Ford here. I would lower the volume. But I don't know you. Too much for me based on experience. Great approach to lifting however.


Well, I may be a little overambitious. I guess I'll try it out and go from there... still love to hear any more input from the board, though.



Also, you ARE hitting your traps with the deadlift, once you get the weight going pretty good. I started on deads at less than 135 a little while back, and felt I had to do shrugs to make up for this. Now, however, after around 5 good cycles over 6 months, I am deadlifting 280 X 5 last workout. Let me say, I can feel the traps working now! I feel a LOT of stuff working now on the deads. The powerlifters on Dr. Squats site say deads build huge traps. I wouldn't worry about it with your routine.


Cool, that's one worry dispensed with.



You can tell I am out of the 'club', but I am going to ask the dumb question. What are DOMS? Days Off Missed Sore? Days Of Muslce Soreness? Duly Oppressed - Muscle Soreness?

Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness. When you lift, and you feel all right afterwards, but the next day you've got that deep soreness, that's DOMS.

[Ford Prefect]

FatherDog,

You make your gains while resting; not in the gym. Especially coming off inactivity, 3x/week for any body part going with a 5x5 protocol is too much for your body to handle. The best bet is to only do it 2x/week. I'd also throw some supplemental stuff in there for legs, shoulders, and arms. You may want to also superset you sets of benching with sets of 5 slow negatives on the pull-up bar... I could be more specific if you want.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
FatherDog,

You make your gains while resting; not in the gym. Especially coming off inactivity, 3x/week for any body part going with a 5x5 protocol is too much for your body to handle. The best bet is to only do it 2x/week.

All right, makes sense.

Considering this -

Sun - rest
Mon - rest
Tue - Deadlift 5X5, weighted crunches 5X5
Wed - Bench 5X5, lat pulldowns 5X5
Thu - Box Squat 5X5, weighted crunches 5X5
Fri - Bench 5X5, lat pulldowns 5X5
Sat - Deadlift 5X5, weighted crunches 5X5
Sun - rest
Mon - rest
Tue - Box Squat 5X5, weighted crunches 5X5
Wed -Bench 5X5, lat pulldowns 5X5
Thu - Deadlift 5X5, weighted crunches 5X5
Fri - Bench 5X5, lat pulldowns 5X5
Sat - Box Squat 5X5, weighted crunches 5X5



I'd also throw some supplemental stuff in there for legs, shoulders, and arms.

Tuesdays and Fridays are the days I'm really strapped for time; I wouldn't be able to get in any more exercises on those days. Wednesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays I could fit some more in. Suggestions as to types, or sets/reps?



You may want to also superset you sets of benching with sets of 5 slow negatives on the pull-up bar...

I was gonna stick with lat pulldowns until I'd worked my way up to the point of being able to manage 5X5 of pullups, then start doing weighted pullups.



I could be more specific if you want.


I appreciate any advice you can offer; I'm still pretty much a n00b at this.

[Ford Prefect]

I'd really ease into it at first and build strength. Do two days working the bench, squat, and deadlift each workout to varying degrees.

Workout 1:

Bench Press 5x5
Box Squat 5x5
Zercher Lift 5x5

Workout 2:

Graduated Deadlift 5x5
-Start in a power rack with the pins set a little below the knees and every workout lower the pins or stand on a plate to make yourself pull from a lower position. Eventually, you will be pulling from the ground with the same weight you were pulling from your knees with.

Pause squats 5x3
-Free weight (no box) and pause for 3 seconds at the bottom.

Super slow Bench Press
-5 seconds down 10 seconds up. work up to heavy single.

Zercher Squat 3x3

I can't remember where I grabbed this routine, but I really like it. Once you are pulling from the ground on the DL, then start a more convention 5x5 approach like:

Mon/Thurs:

Bench Press 5x5
Pull-ups 5x5
Military Press 5x5

Tues/Fri
Deadlift/Box Squat 5x5
Goodmorning/Romanian DL 5x5
Heavy Abs 5x5

After a month on this, take a week off and then hit a more extensive strength training program.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Once you are pulling from the ground on the DL, then start a more convention 5x5 approach like:


Actually, while my back and legs are still lagging behind where they used to be, they didn't lose nearly as much as my upper body from the weight cutting. I can still pull 250 lbs for triples. Which is, y'know, sad and pathetic compared to some of the guys around here, but I don't feel completely weak and wrecked about it. I've always had a decently strong core.



Mon/Thurs:

Bench Press 5x5
Pull-ups 5x5
Military Press 5x5

Tues/Fri
Deadlift/Box Squat 5x5
Goodmorning/Romanian DL 5x5
Heavy Abs 5x5

After a month on this, take a week off and then hit a more extensive strength training program.

Interesting. I like the looks of this program. Why only a month?

[Ford Prefect]

I've always just subscribed to the notion of mixing it up every 3-4 weeks, and I figure by then you'll have a modicum of strength back and can start a more thorough program.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
I've always just subscribed to the notion of mixing it up every 3-4 weeks, and I figure by then you'll have a modicum of strength back and can start a more thorough program.

Ah. That makes sense. Thanks loads for the help. I'll probably be back in a month or two asking for help putting together a more thorough program :D