Mantis vs Wing Chun

[YongChun]

Last night I met someone who had practiced Wing Chun for maybe five or six years. He said he met a 22 year old Preying Mantis teacher. This teacher had studied Mantis for about 8 to 10 years. I don't know from where in the USA or what lineage etc.

Anyway these people exchanged hands in a friendly way. The Wing Chun guy said that although the Preying Mantis guy did not know anything about the Wing Chun sticking hands mechanics, he adapted very quickly and was able to counter every Wing Chun attacking technique.

The counters had much variety much more than Wing Chun's responses would be for the same attacks. The counters involved various locks, off-balances traps and very agile footwork that was able to get around the Wing Chun practitoner's back.

The Wing Chun guy is not a hard core Wing Chun exponent with arms of steel and 10 hits a second and solid as a mountain but he does reasonable Wing Chun with some technical precision and little wastage of movement. This person also has some Hung style background and has reasonably trained iron kind of forearms.

For me, I have trained in Karate, Hung style, Tai Chi, Wing Chun and some escrima. In my journey's I have met some very good Preying mantis practitioners. Some from the South were very powerful and rooted and had very fast Mantis circular strikes. A Northern practitioner I met once had very quick evasive footwork which must be the Monkey footwork that I have read about.

One teacher I studied under learned from Wang Kiu in Holland. Wang Kiu said his whole family were Preying Mantis pratitioners. Wang Kiu switched to Wing Chun and after learning it straight from Yip Man, he felt that Preying Mantis and Wing Chun were in fact quite similar in theory although in the forms and applications they appear world's apart. He didn't say that one was superior to the other technically but did say Preying Mantis and Wing Chun had many fights together in Hong Kong. What the proficiency of these fighters were, we will never know.

In the Wing Chun vs Preying Mantis clip shown on this forum it doesn't look that much like Preying Mantis or Wing Chun however maybe that is more difficult than people imagine when both people have similar speeds and experience. However in private engagements between friendly Preying Mantis and Wing Chun where they compare techniques, the action can look very much like movie Preying Mantis.

I told the Wing Chun student who couldn't handle any of the Preying Mantis attacks that Preying Mantis of course is a very good art because it handled the best Shaolin had to offer according to some of the history. Also there was one region in China where Preying Mantis was very famous for fighting.

I think Preying Mantis has much more variety than Wing Chun and is more impressive looking. However against a hard core Wing Chun practitioner who hits with great power and speed and never loses his center facing, the match may well look like a typical boxing match and maybe like that video clip we saw. A black belt in Judo can do spectacular throws against the novice but when you see two good people in action it looks like garbage because neither side can effect a clean throw. I once saw two top students of the late Grandmaster Wing Chun have a little Chi sau match and the result in my mind looked worse than the students at my club. Of course they were better than any students at my club.

Too bad we are all limited by the number of hours we can study martial arts. In Chinese martial art there are many good arts from which to pick. Maybe Jet Li movies and Crouching Tiger and Hidden Dragon point to the theoretical quality that Chinese martial art could take.

I think friendly get together's between Wing Chun and Preying Mantis would be very good. In one tournament in Vancouver in the early 1980's the Preying Mantis practitioners (Al Cheng, John Funk lineage) cleaned up. The punching action was not unlike the chain punching technique from the Wing Chun system. Preying Mantis also entered the Wing Chun chi sau competition inthe same tournament and also excelled in this.

For me, I have seen so many good martial artists that I admire anyone who is skilled in whatever art they do. I think the same would be true for many of us. If we watch a Chinese Wushu competition we would all admire the skill of the winners no matter what style they are from.

It's good if we keep the stylistic differences. As one person said on some forum, these days everyone cross trains in boxing, Thai boxing and Gracie Jujitsu. No one trusts their original art. Maybe non-Kung Fu arts are more limited and so cross training is reuqired?

So all the ultimate fighting competitions tend to look the same like kickboxing with some grappling mixed in. This guy said he thought is was very boring. Wheras in the stylistic challenges it was always interesting to pit Tai Chi against Karate or Mantis against Wing Chun or Tiger against Crane etc. These latter match ups would be much more interesting and more like watching a game of chess than a mudwrestling match on the school ground.

Ray

[BeiTangLang]

That was easy to read evaluation that has many valid points & commentary. Thanks for writting it!
~BTL

[mantis108]

Welcome to the board and thank you for the eloquant post.

I mostly agreed with what you've said except I find the WC Vs Mantis clip really disappointing. But then that just me.

Regards

Mantis108

[Skarbromantis]

I touch hands with a Wing Chun friend of mine on the regular, when it comes to tecniques, I have alot more, so I am able to pull out moves that he never expects, also in fashion that he has never seen, the stepping patterns and footwork help me to get in and around him, but when showing app's, it's very much like PM, we both agree that its very much the same, we can spend hours, going through apps, that are different but also quite the same, we are at times evenly matched.


Skard1

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by mantis108
Welcome to the board and thank you for the eloquant post.

I mostly agreed with what you've said except I find the WC Vs Mantis clip really disappointing. But then that just me.

Regards

Mantis108

Well you chose to cross-post it on this forum so I suppose you're willing to discuss it further. What exactly is it that you were expecting to see? I remember when you came over to the main forum arguing about TMA. The fact is your conception of what goes on between two competent fighters is more myth than fact. Furthermore you expect to see a bunch of clear Mantis moves in a sparring situation which screams out to me that you have no serious experience sparring with artists of different styles. Not only is it difficult to impose your will on the other, but if they both went for the kill which is the real NPM and WC mindset, yes you'd see a higher percentage of authentic-looking techniques but the match would be over in 5 seconds, now what would they learn from that? Sparring is about learning and improving. If you want your technique to look perfect and work perfectly than practice your drills. Both are necessary to be the best well-rounded martial artist that you can be.

[mantis108]

Thank you for taking the time for the discussion. Since you are frank in your post I will give you my rather blunt reply.

First and foremost I posted this clips and my opinions here because I believe it is some food for thoughts for mantis stylists at large. It is my personal believe that PM in the west is facing a huge problem - a technical problem (pun intended). Some prominent people in the mantis world have already begun to promote mantis fighting/sparring style as seen in the clip. I understand I am of the minority to offer a different opinion. I am not interested in getting an instant conculsion or agreement. I am stating a problem that is steeling the course for the PM future in the west. If we all sit down, clap and praise the participants, give them a pad on the back and say a job well done, what exactly would that achieve? I see the clip as a fine oppotunity to ask ourselves, a mirror if you will, is that all mantis can offer in those years of training? That's it when we put you to the test you realize the myth (as you put it) is no more?

<<<Well you chose to cross-post it on this forum so I suppose you're willing to discuss it further. What exactly is it that you were expecting to see? >>>

I have made my comments on the other thread which you follow already. I would think that you already have understood what I have tried to come across. If not please re-read my posts there and take some time to think about it. Thank you.

<<<I remember when you came over to the main forum arguing about TMA. The fact is your conception of what goes on between two competent fighters is more myth than fact. >>>

Yes, I have and always will maintain my view. There is as much misconception and myth there. I really don't appreciate this suggestion that I am all mouth but no muscles. Have you personally see my trained? Do you actucally have any idea of what kind of training regiment that we gone through. If not you are forming an opinion not based on any facts but misconceptions as much as you accused everybody else involved in TMA.

<<<Furthermore you expect to see a bunch of clear Mantis moves in a sparring situation which screams out to me that you have no serious experience sparring with artists of different styles.>>>

Here is your misconception about TMA or shall I say mantis way of sparring. You figure that mantis or your preception of my view is that it is but a bunch of moves, positions, and postures that somehow miraculously pasted together to use against some resistive opponents. Mantis is about using techniques that are developed out of sound principles. The takedown techniques for example are not that different from judo, JJ or Shuai Chiao, etc... I have students from all sorts of background, boxing (amateur league), Karate, MMA, etc... some works as bouncer at bars, some works as correctional service, etc.. Some out weight and out reach me in physques. They don't come to me because I show them forms. In fact, I don't teach that many forms nor fancy weapons. Quite a few of them tried my skill before decided to join. I see sparring of all sorts in real time and on tapes both during my training in HK and here in the west. I may not be good at Kung Fu unlike many other in the TMA community who are excellent fighters but I am certainly not a all mouth no muscle kind of guy.

<<<Not only is it difficult to impose your will on the other, but if they both went for the kill which is the real NPM and WC mindset, yes you'd see a higher percentage of authentic-looking techniques but the match would be over in 5 seconds, now what would they learn from that? Sparring is about learning and improving. If you want your technique to look perfect and work perfectly than practice your drills. Both are necessary to be the best well-rounded martial artist that you can be.>>>

Here's where the arguement exposed another misconception and myth about TMA. Traditional Kung Fu count every engagement and break up as one round. There could be many many rounds (secs like you said) within the time limited round. Every round can be won by strikes (knock out if the rules permit) or controlled ( including takedowns and joint manipulations). You may have winning rounds, losing rounds and even rounds. What you believe or made to believe is that TMA people "should not" trade punches or exchanging blows like the martial sports people do. Getting hit is low skill which is what this clip essentially illustrated. I am not sure if it is just me or most everybody is just polite and nice enough to not point out that it is no more than point fighting rationale played out with a bit more enthausaism. I often tell my students that Ali and others got punched at all the time when they fight. They are certainly not low skill by any measure. So why should you be worry that you got punched. Just do better next time arround (trap it or whatever) and that's all.

I however appreciate for the insights and the willingness to discuss. I have some clips of my students sparring (one out weights the other about 50 pounds) with bare hands, no gears and no mats. Pretty much the same format as your clip. I will try to post them soon and perhaps you and everyone will kindly be the judge of that. I taped those clips first (on Nov 11) and then I showed my students your clip and I let them be the judge of their performance and stuff that they learned from me. The reaction was the same as most people here. No one, including me, denies the two teaches' talent. All I am questioning and hopefully raising the awareness to an alarming situation that PM in the west is perhaps facing a serious identity crisis and in the next little while it might even be annexed into God forbide - mantisrobics of some newage MMA style. :( The way the Mantis teacher performed there isn't going to help. We could all praise his great talent and all but as a mantis stylist I think it is only doing our community a disservice.

Regards

Mantis108

[Skarbromantis]

Mantis108,

Nice post, I agree with your points.

This is right on the money:

"All I am questioning and hopefully raising the awareness to an alarming situation that PM in the west is perhaps facing a serious identity crisis and in the next little while it might even be annexed into God forbide - mantisrobics of some newage MMA style. The way the Mantis teacher performed there isn't going to help. We could all praise his great talent and all but as a mantis stylist I think it is only doing our community a disservice."

Well said.



Skard1

[fa_jing]

"I see the clip as a fine oppotunity to ask ourselves, a mirror if you will, is that all mantis can offer in those years of training? That's it when we put you to the test you realize the myth (as you put it) is no more? "

For some friendly sparring....yes.

"Getting hit is low skill which is what this clip essentially illustrated."

"I often tell my students that Ali and others got punched at all the time when they fight. They are certainly not low skill by any measure."

:confused: yeah when you fight a talented opponent you are going to get hit.

"The way the Mantis teacher performed there isn't going to help. "

Well the fact that he has good flow, good control, and isn't overly concerned about conforming to external stylistic appearences speaks well for the Mantis world in the eyes of the sportfighting community. That means a better reputation for Mantis, in my opinion.

The funny thing is, I posted this clip because it does NOT resemble "aimless punching and kicking with little defense" which is what most TMA types refer to as "kickboxing." To me, I see clear techniques from the respective styles all over the place. I am familiar with Sifu Milan's Wing Chun lineage and I see 100% techniques from the style. Was Sifu Lera using techniques not found in 7-star Mantis? I doubt it and if so, please indicate where.

Now why was Sifu Lera using only limited movement? He was keeping things calm and felt like he shouldn't go at it 100%. You'll notice that he doesn't block or flinch for techniques that aren't thrown with real intent or the proper distance - a sure sign of an experienced practicioner. Why were sifus Lera and Milan breaking the Kung Fu rules doing things like leading with a high roundhouse kick? Because it's SPARRING and you play the game to LEARN, to PRACTICE, not to LOOK GOOD or reveal all of your favorite killer moves.

"I am not sure if it is just me or most everybody is just polite and nice enough to not point out that it is no more than point fighting rationale played out with a bit more enthausaism"

Some superficial politeness was offered but means little when you or others take the offensive and deeply criticize accomplished martial artists. Regarding point fighting, yes this was light contact, however fighting did not stop after contact was made, nor were the targets so limited, so no, it was not like point sparring. However sometimes they did stop after a hit that was pulled to save the other practicioner from injury - for realism's sake. In one case they did not, the time that Lera landed a solid side kick, but pulled it, then turned his back - it was actually unrealistic for them to have continued.

BTW, Sifu Lera's primary 7* teacher is Master Kwan Cortez of Chicago, who graduated co-valedictorian (top of the class) from the most famous 7-star Praying Mantis school which began in Hong Kong then later moved to Taiwan in the 60's. Sorry I don't remember the name of his teacher, but maybe some of you know the school I am describing which he attended. Master Kwan proudly tells of having to sit in a horse stance for the first year, being beaten all over by his teacher, and breaking nearly every bone in his body training. He also was in a couple of Kung Fu movies filmed in Hong Kong. My point is that Sifu Lera's training in 7* mantis is of THE BEST quality. Furthermore I have stood next to the guy and sized him up, fighters know fighters and I'm sure of his talent.

I'm more and more convinced that either:
1. You don't like this format for sparring because it is NOT realistic, or
2. You are upset because you DO think it was realistic and your ideas about Mantis were not borne out.

[mantis108]

First off thank you Skarbromantis and German Bei lung (for the other thread) for the support and the understand.

Fajing,

It is nice to hear your perspective again. :)

<<<Well the fact that he has good flow, good control, and isn't overly concerned about conforming to external stylistic appearences speaks well for the Mantis world in the eyes of the sportfighting community. That means a better reputation for Mantis, in my opinion.>>>

I do recognize he has flow, control, form (not as in routine), timing and such things. As a teacher he should have them, no one should expect any less from a MA teacher. In fact any TMA or any MA stylist should have that at least. But I could not agree with rest of the statement. I can understand from your point of view that he "isn't overly concerned about conforming to external stylistic appearences speaks well for the Mantis world in the eyes of the sportfighiting community." In other words, his conformed to sportfighting community thereby "earned" your respect. Because of this conformity, convertion, or adaptation, he barely resembles Mantis anymore. This is why people, including me, in Mantis over here is wondering where is the mantis? If the "external stylistic appearences" as you put it is non important, then why don't we all go do JKD or MMA? In the reality that appeals to the sportfighting crowd that JKD ( often thought of as kung fu training) or MMA, Why should anyone bother with mantis and a specific style of mantis out of the many that exist? The ability to adapt is admirable and vital when there is a limited skill set involved. I ask all mantis stylists to ponder wether mantis is a limited skill set and in what way it is a limited skill set?

As for "external stylistic appearences", it is important because that IS the essence of the style which is obtained long long time ago by its founder, who through his observations of nature created the mantis style by means of applying the "spirit" and strategy of the insect and the primates. BTW, by spirt I don't mean that one frails his arms or hop up and down that make him looks like an insect or animal. The foundation and principles were based upon the predatory skills of the manits. To deny or ignore that is to cast the quintessential of mantis away. In that case, he or she really has no more business with Mantis skills.

If he is a fighter, a talented one as you see him, who has out grown his mantis training, more power to him. He might have conformed to a format that is intelligently recognizable by the sportfighting community, which is to say he is a capable fighter on his own. But to say his fighting is pinnacle of what mantis has to offer, I am sorry to say it would be vastly mistaken. No one has to take my word for it but I would suggest people to sought after teachers such as Kevin Brazier (Tainan Mantis), John Scolaro, Ilya Profatilov, Paul Lin and many others in the west. BTW, Jochen Wolfgramm (German Bei Lung) would be an interest exponent to visit in Germany as well.

<<<The funny thing is, I posted this clip because it does NOT resemble "aimless punching and kicking with little defense" which is what most TMA types refer to as "kickboxing." >>>

I don't think I called it kickboxing. But if I did I apologize as I don't mean to offend the kickboxing community.

<<<To me, I see clear techniques from the respective styles all over the place. I am familiar with Sifu Milan's Wing Chun lineage and I see 100% techniques from the style. Was Sifu Lera using techniques not found in 7-star Mantis? I doubt it and if so, please indicate where. >>>

I am sorry to say I don't see much of 7-stars Mantis. I see Changquan (long fist) rationale, which is part of HK 7 Stars mantis' genetic made up, as I have stated in my other post. So I suppose he did what he has learned in his style in hind sight.

<<<Now why was Sifu Lera using only limited movement? He was keeping things calm and felt like he shouldn't go at it 100%. You'll notice that he doesn't block or flinch for techniques that aren't thrown with real intent or the proper distance - a sure sign of an experienced practicioner. >>>

I understand your point but that's just what any experienced fighter should have achieve. What does that have to do with mantis training specifically? Again, I do not deny that he is in his own right an experienced fighter.

<<<Why were sifus Lera and Milan breaking the Kung Fu rules doing things like leading with a high roundhouse kick? Because it's SPARRING and you play the game to LEARN, to PRACTICE, not to LOOK GOOD or reveal all of your favorite killer moves.>>>

I don't think there is a Kung Fu rule to say you can't do whatever.

Again, moves in Mantis are based on specific sets of principles trialed by years of practical experiences. It looks a certain way because of the mechanics and dynamics of the principles being expressed by physical actions.

<<<Some superficial politeness was offered but means little when you or others take the offensive and deeply criticize accomplished martial artists.>>>

I apologize if I come off criticizing the man. I only want to make clear that mantis, the style(s), doesn't necessarily fights that way he fights. You might think otherwise and it is perfectly fine. I just don't think it is right to lead others to think that was what mantis has to offer as the best. It is in my solid believe that Mantis has way more to offer that way as it is meet with the eyes here.

<<<Regarding point fighting, yes this was light contact, however fighting did not stop after contact was made, nor were the targets so limited, so no, it was not like point sparring. However sometimes they did stop after a hit that was pulled to save the other practicioner from injury - for realism's sake. In one case they did not, the time that Lera landed a solid side kick, but pulled it, then turned his back - it was actually unrealistic for them to have continued. >>>

You point is well taken. But remember as we accept your explanations for the performance in this clip, you will have to extend the same consideration and courtesy to others who post similar clips from the Kung Fu community. What is good for you is going to be good for others.

<<<BTW, Sifu Lera's primary 7* teacher is Master Kwan Cortez of Chicago, who graduated co-valedictorian (top of the class) from the most famous 7-star Praying Mantis school which began in Hong Kong then later moved to Taiwan in the 60's. Sorry I don't remember the name of his teacher, but maybe some of you know the school I am describing which he attended. Master Kwan proudly tells of having to sit in a horse stance for the first year, being beaten all over by his teacher, and breaking nearly every bone in his body training. He also was in a couple of Kung Fu movies filmed in Hong Kong. My point is that Sifu Lera's training in 7* mantis is of THE BEST quality. Furthermore I have stood next to the guy and sized him up, fighters know fighters and I'm sure of his talent.>>>

Thank you for the info. I am sure he is as you have exhaustively explained he is talented and awesome. I don't deny the possibility that he would take my a s s easily. But I only offer what I saw in his performance.

<<<I'm more and more convinced that either:
1. You don't like this format for sparring because it is NOT realistic, or>>>

No, it is not the format that I don't like. I am comfortable with the format. It is the serious lack of mantis techniques that I am not comfortable with.

<<<2. You are upset because you DO think it was realistic and your ideas about Mantis were not borne out.>>>

I am not upset but I am deeply concerned about the state of Mantis. It is true that my ideas about mantis were not borne out since he is from a different mantis styles. I cann't be upset about that. I am deeply concerned, however, especially non mantis practitioners and mantis novices alike would think that this is the best mantis has to offer fighting wise while there is very hard pressed evidence of mantis technique being shown. Having said that there is certainly a strong hint of certain aspects of mantis training methodology shown by the Mantis practitioner. That is IMHO the extent of Mantis illustrated in the clip.

I can only agree on their talents as figthers but I can not for all honesty agree on the mantis technique being shown.

You migth find it's okay the way it is. But as a mantis practitioner myself, I see a troubled future if the problem is not addressed especially when this is supposed to be against a different style.

It is solely my opinion. Like I said I am in the minority but since this is a forum to discuss our respective arts. I voice my concerns that's all.

Regards

Mantis108

[B.Tunks]

Mantis 108 wrote:

-I can only agree on their talents as fighters but I can not for all honesty agree on the mantis technique being shown.

I think this is the most important point of the argument.
Yes he can fight but no, it's not classical mantis.

One thing we dont know about Sifu Lera (and I refuse to assume)is whether or not he is fighting exactly the way he was taught. If he was, then the issue is with his teacher and what he has passed on.

also:

-You might find it's okay the way it is. But as a mantis practitioner myself, I see a troubled future if the problem is not addressed especially when this is supposed to be against a different style.

I think all you can really do about this is ensure your own students carry on in the way you have been taught and to make sure you and your students get out there and fight as much as you can (especialy against other so-called mantis practitioners) and show them the real Tanglang.

In my opinion, until someone wants to get off their ass and do it properly there's no point talking about it (especially on the internet). Fighting is done with fists not computers.

In my time I have seen very little 'real Tanglang' and look forward to seeing some soon.

[18elders]

I also agree with your post

[mantis108]

Hi Brendan,

Thanks and I hear you. :)

Hi 18elders,

Thanks and glad you feel the same.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[fa_jing]

<<<The foundation and principles were based upon the predatory skills of the mantis. To deny or ignore that is to cast the quintessential of mantis away. In that case, he or she really has no more business with Mantis skills.

These are harsh words. Are you listening to yourself?


<<<But to say his fighting is pinnacle of what mantis has to offer, I am sorry to say it would be vastly mistaken.

Who said that? I said his teacher was the pinnacle of what Mantis has to offer. I’m trying to set up a background for you on the guy.

<<<I see Changquan (long fist) rationale, which is part of HK 7 Stars mantis' genetic made up, as I have stated in my other post.

So what? Maybe he likes it like that. He still refers to his BB in TKD for that matter. Check his website:
http://www.mantisfist.com/about.html

<<<Having said that there is certainly a strong hint of certain aspects of mantis training methodology shown by the Mantis practitioner. That is IMHO the extent of Mantis illustrated in the clip.

That’s all that I wanted to share. Now I see that you guys were put off by my friends computer graphics in the beginning--but he was just experimenting. Was there background music perhaps? Giant Chinese Characters saying “Tong Long?” You asked me for permission to include a link to the clips when you saw them. Then you said you were really disappointed in them.

[mantis108]

I do appreciate the clip that you provided as an oppotunity for us, as mantis stylists, to reflect on our arts especially various formats of applying them. You and your friend has done an excellent job. I don't think we can ever take that away from you.

I have make my points and I think with the help of German Bai Lung's clips we would come to some understanding of my bluntly worded posts as a defense of my position. I do apologize to you that I came across as attacking you and your friends' work. Personally, honesty is a harsh reality and a tough sale without appropriate means. It is a personal choice wether to face it or to turn away from it. I choice the former because I realize good medicine is often bitter medicine.

Again thank you for giving us, especially me, a lot of food for thoughts

Regards

Mantis108