PTP and Injuries...an update

[CD Lee]

I have been using a PTP style workout for around six months now. While I have not ever been injured on the program, I have noticed something regarding the heavy pressing cycles over time.

Oh, I do bench press 2 sets, warm up first, low weight first set, target heavy weight second set. (I have tried heavy first)
Deadlifts 2 sets, same thing
Pullups 2 sets, bodyweight at 205 for six reps each(still heavy to me)

What I have noticed lately is a tendency to get little 'pains' in my shoulders after a week of heavier presses above 80%1RM. Now, I will back off a week, then it goes away, then I start back in a little lower, and work back up, but then it seems to happen again. These are slight sharp pains that I can feel during normal daily activities or in bed even when I turn or move.

When I do my Xingyi warmups, being more aware of all my body, I can feel these little injuries inside when opening up my joints. This is bugging me. Anybody else have these types of problems with the weight routines, whether powerlifing or lighter weights?

[fa_jing]

I'm not sure about your specific problem, but I recommend you add some OH squats to the routine to improve your shoulder girdle flexibility.

[Cheese Dog]

It's probably a good idea to lay off the heavy bench presses for awhile. When the pain has gone away do some exercises to strengthen the rotator cuff and the posterior delts.

For the rotator cuff, hold a light dumbell in each hand with your upper arms parellel to the floor and your lower arms hanging down. Bring the weights up in an arc in front of you while keeping the upper arms in the same position (they just rotate). Kind of hard to explain, maybe someone can post a picture.

For the rear delts do bent over flyes.

Using dumbells rather than a barbell for your presses can help also because you have to use more stabilizing muscles to control the weight.

[CD Lee]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Fajing - Can you really fajing? :D Cool. Can you describe in some detail what OH squats are? Not sure thats all.

Cheese - I think that is pretty reasonable advice. In fact, I am not benching this week at all. You know, I have had injuries before and they suck major. Most espcially to the shoulder more than other places. I am not going to push it. The dumbell idea is good. My only problem there is I am benching up to 245 for reps. I hate handling dumbells over 70 lbs. I feel like I am going to crush my toes or tear up something. I may have to lay back on the heavy work a bit for presses or go to an overhead dumbell movement. That is not as strong as bench press and I only have 45 lbs bells at home at the moment.

Any thoughts on going to an incline press for a slight change in muscle groups usage? My bench has that option, and it is a weaker movement...just thinking...

[Toby]

I'll jump in for fa_jing. OH squats are squats while holding the bar statically above your head. I don't like the idea, because I do squats for legs and I squat at least twice as much as I can shoulder press. Good for challenging your core and shoulders though. For shoulders I don't do anything anymore. BP, DL and pullups take care of them, and hours of chi sau :D.

Regarding injuries, I had them on my old workout. Turns out I got a common weightlifting injury called osteolysis in my left shoulder. I'm bad, and never stopped lifting or MA to recover so it's not really going away. It's not as bad now that I'm PTPing though, since my volume of lifting has gone down as well as some particularly damaging exercises like shoulder press. I should have stopped for 3 months+ in order to recover according to my sports specialist. No worries, if it gets worse I can always elect for surgery :eek:. Then I'll be forced to recover. Unfortunately I'm addicted to exercise.

[Ford Prefect]

Toby has the gist of it. I got this years ago when I was PTP'ing myself. I think it could be due to the fact that I was following Pavel's advice to a "t" and not warming up. I've heard a few horror stories of muscle tears because of this. Resting for a few months while focussing on calesthenics was the only thing to make it go away for good for me.

[fa_jing]

http://danjohn.org/overhead.html

Correct, it's for your shoulder girdle and core.


And no, I've been told that I can't "Fa-jing"
:)

[abobo]

For the first cycle I didn't warm up, but the weights were light and conservative then.

Last year I had shoulder problems which dumbbell bench pressing and high volume BB routines contributed to, complete with sets to failure. I couldn't use my right arm for throwing or punching without pain. It took from about December to March to fully recover.

I'm much more strict about pressing technique these days. Take it easy with the heavy presses, and when you get back into it focus on form.

[CD Lee]

Ford - When I started PTP, I followed it to the T with the heavy set first. I found out quick, my body did not like that at all.

Once example is that even now, cold, 205 on the bench press feels really heavy for 5 reps. However, after that, I can do up to 245 for reps and the heavier weights 'feel' much much easier to press after the blood is flowing into the muscles. I am in much better control over the weight even though I can feel more gravity. Does that make sence?

So, I instituted a 135 x 10 warmup before ANY presses. I as I get heavier, the weights seem to feel basically the same. If I am doing over 230 for 5 reps, I will do an intermediate 1 rep at 185 and one more at around 205 or 225 before doing the actual sets. Otherwise, it feels like I am fighting the weights.

[Cheese Dog]

ALWAYS warm up before lifting heavy. Paval doesn't know everything!

[rubthebuddha]

does pavel advise against warming up, or does he just ignore it as a step in the workout process?

[MusicalGirevik]

He feels warmups are unnecessary, but if the trainee feels he must warm up, do joint mobility drills. No stretching before lifting.

I have been using PTP for 2 years now with no warmup other than loading my bar with plates. No problems here.

Don't forget to cycle! Lifting at or near your 1-rep max weight (or even 3 rep max weight) all the time is counterproductive and even dangerous. If you don't want to bother with calculations for cycles, just drop the weight every 4th week.

[CD Lee]

Music -

Of course we are cycling. That IS one of the cornerstones of PTP. I did not really have any problems until doing multiple cycles. More than just injuries, when I do some reps with intermediate weights, the blood moves into the muscles, and the next set feels really a LOT smoother and in much better control. I mean, for me at least, it is more than a significant difference.

I think PTP is a great approach and that is what I use. But, surely not everyone is going to be physically identical. Besides, as long as you rest in between, there is no reason that a warm up should cause any problem with the principles of PTP. Right? Fatigue is the main enemy, and a warm up does not impact the muscle much as far as intensity or volume, so I see no harm. Also, I am 38.

Every sport I have ever participated in, has caused 'some' sort of injuries. Running, tennis, lifting, bodybuilding, soccer, football, basketball, volleyball, cycling, and swimming. I have had some injuries in all of these.

I am seeking ways to minimize injuries. I don't think one can prevent them completely.

[Toby]

I rarely have injuries. I never warm up with any lifting I do. I get out of bed, take a ****, have a drink, go out the back shed, do 100 skips with my jump rope to get the blood flowing then straight into my heavy bench set. It's never caused a problem. I'm the opposite to you, CD Lee. I do better with the heavy set 1st.

The only real injury from direct lifting I had was when I tried a good morning with too much weight a few months back. 1 rep, then I realised it was too heavy. I put it down and was changing weights for deadlifting and lifting the plates around hurt my back. It's still bothering me.

Rub,

From memory, one motivation behind Pavel's routines is to be like the Spetznatz (sp?). Always be ready to do a maximal effort lift at a moment's notice. Soldiers don't have time to do a warmup, comrade, or something like that. Also, too much stretching can make you lift move into weaker ROMs than you would normally reach => dangerous lifts. Dunno, works for me.


Everyone,

There was a study done in the Australian armed forces (just army I think?) a few years back where it showed that stretching had no impact on injury rates at all. The study involved 3000 soldiers and was over a few years. I've tried to find info via google but can't. I remember hearing it on the radio a few years ago and it sort of vindicated my approach (i.e. I'm too lazy to stretch for any length of time).

[Ford Prefect]

Toby,

There have been numerous contradicting studies on the effects of stretching before exercise. Since there is nothing definitive, I like to err on the side of caution especially when I'm putting my muscles into stretched positions with a lot of weight loaded on. On top of that, there have also been numerous studies as to the benefits of loaded stretching between sets of weight lifting which all seem to conclude that loaded stretching facillitates the nervous system to fire more effeciently when the lift is performed directly after the stretch, thus improving performance. Those studies have yet to be disputed. (Your boy Pavel actually cites these studies in EAS Supplement review #4)

Now as to performing the maximal rep on no warm-up, besides the stretching concerns, there have again been numerous studies that show that neural efficiency/stimulation is the greatest on the second set of an exercise. Pavel Tsatsouline even cites this reference in an article he wrote, but still seems to advocate his PTP approach. One of the many times he contradicts himself...



From memory, one motivation behind Pavel's routines is to be like the Spetznatz (sp?). Always be ready to do a maximal effort lift at a moment's notice. Soldiers don't have time to do a warmup

Us New England drivers always have to be ready for a car skidding on black ice on the highway at 70 mph. Does that mean we should constantly practice that even though it could cause serious injury?

[Toby]

Sorry Ford, didn't want to sound like a Pavel evangelist. I like his work, because it works for me, but I take it with a grain of salt. I'm certainly not a blind follower, just view it as a resource. I know you're not his biggest fan.

Re stretching - I've just always been lazy. I'm not saying that people shouldn't stretch, just that I've never followed a structured stretching program. I'd like to know how to do it, and do it effectively, but I couldn't e.g. do 1hr of stretching before 1hr of lifting. I did a fair bit of searching for a reference to the army study but I can't find it anywhere, so I can't use it as a reference. I'm 100% sure of the report but have no evidence to the findings so I shouldn't have brought it up.

Re the 1st set/2nd set - dunno why, but I always perform better on the 1st set, unless I do < 5 or 6 reps with about 1/2 of my 5RM. Since this doesn't seem to help me much anyway, I don't do it. For me, if I do the 90% set first, I'll struggle with the 100% set. I'm aware that the 2nd set should be the best, but it doesn't work that way for me.

Re the black ice - again, I was just answering Rub's question. But yeah, I think that drivers should do advanced driving courses as part of their licensing requirements, plus maybe every 5 years or so. That's a proposal that's been put forward where I live, since a few years ago kids with just a few hours experience could get behind the wheel with a license. No night driving, no loose surface driving, no poor weather driving experience required. Me, I did a lot of driving in the Oz outback when I worked in mining. As a young guy with a Toyota 4wd I (and my mates) would push the vehicles' limits regularly. 5 of my mates lost their jobs when they rolled vehicles in 3 months. No injuries except a minor concussion thank God. I believe that I learnt a lot about driving in that time. Expensive on vehicles, dangerous, but good experience.

[Ford Prefect]

Toby,

I think Pavel puts out some good material, but the marketing and presentation of it tend to brainwash people. As for the black ice ananology, I was trying to say that there are plenty of things you can do to be "better prepared" for dangerous situations in real life, but training them is dangerous itself. It's just not smart to set yourself up for getting hurt doing "this" because there is an off chance it will help you doing "that" (even though "that" might never happen). You only get one body in this life. If you don't need to hurt it, don't hurt it.

Just think of the example you gave in the first place. How special forces might have to exert a maximal force before warming up.... You think these guys don't prepare before a mission? Even on a mission, you think it's just like they roll out of bed and start exerting maximal force? More likely, they will only have to perform this after much running, swimming, etc to get to there objective. That's definately not anywhere near the same thing as rolling out of bed and nailing your 5RM.

Just look at elite lifters. They can lift a far cry more than most people, yet most always warm up with sets of 45, 95, and 135.

[Toby]

Ford, my special forces example was just answering Rub's question about Pavel's reasons for not warming up. I was paraphrasing Pavel's PTP book to the best of my knowledge, not offering my reasons why you shouldn't warm up.

I know my lack of warming up is a bad thing. But I'll keep doing it, because of various reasons. I'm not advising it, but it seems to suit me. FYI, I wasn't warming up long before I'd ever heard of Pavel (besides riding my bike 15 min to the gym, which I don't do anymore).