Core of Tai Chi Chuan- Question?

[Roll Back]

What is the core or central philosophy in the development of Tai Chi? Any Tai chi.

[kungfu cowboy]

(cryptic) Yin and Yang

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Wuji.

[bodhitree]

Wuji>yin and yang> wuji

[bob10]

$$$$$$$$

[Fu-Pow]

Soft overcomes hard. Hard overcomes soft.

Or "unity" of any opposing forces. Opening and closing. Forward and back. Folding and unfolding. Empty and Full. Substantial and insubstantial, etc.

Wuji is "unity" or "emptiness" or "void." It is not "something" and not "nothing." It existed before "nothing" and "something." When there was "something" and "nothing" then you have Yin and Yang.

Taiji is when Wuji divides into complementary opposites. That is Yin and Yang.

From the 2, Yin and Yang you get the 3 lines which make up the 8 trigrams.

From the 8 trigrams you get the 64 hexagrams.

From the 64 hexagrams you get the "10,000 things."

But even when you have "10,000 things" when they are in opposite complementary you still have Wuji because the opposites cancel each other out.

So from the 1 you get 2, from 3 you get 8, from the 8 you get 64 and from the 64 the 10,000, from the 10, 000 you get the one again.

This is the Taoist theory that underpins almost all of Chinese culture from Martial arts to Psychology.

[Kumkuat]

peng jin

[bamboo_ leaf]

dynamic balance with ability to change

[Syd]

Observe balance at all times and in all things... and 265.

[Roll Back]

Originally posted by Syd
Observe balance at all times and in all things... and 265.

I got the balance part, but what is "265"?

[Roll Back]

Thanks for your input. I am not looking to debate this topic rather discuss and explore.

From what I have been told and all the research I have done, Tai Chi Chuan is a Taoist martial art. To me that means the martial art of Tai Chi was created based in the philosophy of Taoism or another way of saying it, Taoism applied to martial arts. So with this line of reasoning the core or central philosophy of Tai Chi would be that of Taoism.

It is my understanding “Tao” means “the way” which is referenced to mean,” the natural way”. This was developed by the Taoist desire to reach immortality. They found that going with nature used less energy of the body thus extending their lives. So without going into sermon on Taoism two main attributes arise out of going with nature. 1) Keeping it simple. 2) Going with the flow. To do anything else uses unnecessary energy, thus breaks the tenets of Taoism.

With this in mind I have another question. Does Tai Chi Chuan, as we know it today follow the Tao (natural way)?

I do not think so and here is why. First I’d like to take away “Tai Chi” as this name was not coined until long after it was developed. So “Chuan”, is left which we all know to mean, fist, and boxing or in general- combat. We then need apply Taoist philosophy to “Chuan” or combat. So when we do we also need to apply the two main Taoist attributes of; going with the flow and simple, to the art of combat. Hence the name could be “Taoist Chuan” because this gives the name a more full meaning of what the art is about. “Tai Chi” is only a method used to help find the right balance of Yin and Yang to find the simplest way that goes with the flow.

So with the above paragraph in mind I am going to apply the two main attributes of Taoism to Tai Chi Chuan, as we know it today.

1) Simple- Is Tai Chi Chuan simple? No it is not. It takes years to learn and there are not many that can use it as a combat art. Strike one for Tai Chi Chuan being a Taoist martial art.

2) Going with the flow- Not all styles completely break this one but the so-called original style sure does. That is a knee bent in low stance. I hear a lot about Tai Chi knee. Even when you keep good alignment much leg strength is needed to support the body. So to perform a technique the muscles of the leg called upon to support the body is going with the flow? Sounds like going up stream to me. Going with the flow to me means that the structure of the body is such that a minimum of muscle strength and energy is needed to perform the technique.

This has not been an expert opinion; just me trying to look at Tai Chi Chuan in a different light and then trying to figure out why it is the top martial art fighters in the world do not use it. And please I understand all the ways Tai Chi is a Taoist art I am just looking for holes.

If it's natural, why is it hard to learn? How is this with the Tao?

[backbreaker]

My understanding of tao is that it not only refers to being purely natural , but also refers to all things and the interconnectedness of all things as one in the universe, being one with the univers in perfect harmony, and in practice using free will according to the requirements of the tao rather than selfish desires . I beleive in a way taiji is actually very simple as there are only two sets and alot of the moves are similar and build off of each other. I have heard in zhan zhuan standing you want solid full legs, and a flexible light body, which is clear yin and yang seperation.My opinion would be that taiji was developed to overcome or perhaps even reverse the laws of up-down, left-right, front-back, yin-yang; maybe even to the point that it is difficult to distingiush the different sides . So you would probably have to know the seperation before you can unify, I don't know. I beleive taoism is taoism because of the princples involved, but not the specific forms the princples take. If another culture had the same princples but they wrote them down differently and called taiji,I ching, and wu hsing by different names, it would not matter, the principles are compatible in the end(if you consider them real,not just charactristics associated in history with taoists). If you're saying because you know french , but cannot understand english, that french is unrelated in the end to english, well that's wrong. Taoism is not taoism because of where it originates or what lineage someone has or any other academic type thinking(although these factors can be indicative of real cultivation methods,they're not why it's real). My guess as to why taiji is difficult to learn is because it contains many small internal movements which are difficult to see and the fajin movements require alot of training which is physically difficult. My guess at what distinguishes taijiquan from other styles would be internal U-turns which redirect the direction of the opponents attack back into him, along with having central equilibrium. Just my guess

[backbreaker]

In fact I have heard if you don't combine internal with external, hard with soft , fast and slow changes, then it is not totally taiji. Also what about fajin? It would seem to take alot of energy. So I wonder about making progress and progressing in taiji, it seems to require effort , when other Tao school methods don't use as much force, but they use some force sometimes for specific reasons. Taiji as a martial art is probably more physical due to the fact that it's concerned with manipulating the phsical world with a more physical energy. At the higher levels of Taoist qigong and meditation there is less phsical force used and more mental energy. I don't know , it seems a complete system would contain hard and soft, martial arts, healing and meditation and moral cultivation. This is just my understanding and I don't know as much as some others in taiji or qigong.(but I know a little bit at least)

[Syd]

265 was my joke... It's like the joke answer to the riddle of "Why are we here?" The answer is 265 etc.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(Going with the flow to me means that the structure of the body is such that a minimum of muscle strength and energy is needed to perform the technique.)


very correct
look at some of high level guys in the Wu or Yang styles, they have no set stances..

Different perspectives of noted masters, departures from the intent of the Taoist ideas all have come into play to change the art; even to the point of some who claim others have watered it down when they changed it according to what for them may have reflected a truer understanding of Taoist ideals.

Doing what is natural seems hard because much of what we do is unnatural. Its very hard to get rid of the idea of doing instead of allowing in our practice. Peopel want to feel the power. Its hard to let go.

To get to the point where you are sung, doesn’t mean to be hard first, it means that you need to train the body in such a way that it is not possible to use conventional means to support it or move it. At this point another factor must come into play it’s called internal, it takes a while to relise this, some never do.

How you reach this point is the key, investing in loss

[backbreaker]

be as still as a mountain , move like a great river
mountains have a wide base that narrows up to the tip like a pyramid
Water flows in a path that is easiest and least resistant changing form and contantly flowing

[[Censored]]

Salmon swim upstream, and they literally swim themselves to death.

Are they going against the flow?
Have they invested in loss?
Are they NATURAL?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Sure for a fish ;)

[Roll Back]

"My understanding of tao is that it not only refers to being purely natural , but also refers to all things and the interconnectedness of all things as one in the universe, being one with the univers in perfect harmony, and in practice using free will according to the requirements of the tao rather than selfish desires ."

Reply) Yes this is what I was referring to with simple and going with the flow. To me selfish desires break the flow. Lets take that fish swimming up stream as an example: For the species to continue to exist the fish needs to swim up stream. This is the natural flow of that fish. Some may kill themselves in the attempt, but not to do would be selfish. To me this is no different than a parent sacrificing themselves for their children.

"I beleive in a way taiji is actually very simple as there are only two sets and alot of the moves are similar and build off of each other. I have heard in zhan zhuan standing you want solid full legs, and a flexible light body, which is clear yin and yang seperation.My opinion would be that taiji was developed to overcome or perhaps even reverse the laws of up-down, left-right, front-back, yin-yang; maybe even to the point that it is difficult to distingiush the different sides . So you would probably have to know the seperation before you can unify, I don't know."

Reply) OK, I am just playing a little devils advocate here. That is the theory but is that the reality? How many can actualize that theory?

"I beleive taoism is taoism because of the princples involved, but not the specific forms the princples take. If another culture had the same princples but they wrote them down differently and called taiji,I ching, and wu hsing by different names, it would not matter, the principles are compatible in the end(if you consider them real,not just charactristics associated in history with taoists). If you're saying because you know french , but cannot understand english, that french is unrelated in the end to english, well that's wrong. Taoism is not taoism because of where it originates or what lineage someone has or any other academic type thinking(although these factors can be indicative of real cultivation methods,they're not why it's real)."

Reply) Is what you are saying is that Taoism is universal? Yes I agree with that. I think classical fencing is very Taoist in its training and application. What makes Chinese Taoist different is their desire to reach immortality. Thus not only is it a good fighting method it is a method of not only a method of draining the body but of building the internal body to extend life.

"My guess as to why taiji is difficult to learn is because it contains many small internal movements which are difficult to see and the fajin movements require alot of training which is physically difficult. My guess at what distinguishes taijiquan from other styles would be internal U-turns which redirect the direction of the opponents attack back into him, along with having central equilibrium. Just my guess"

Reply) Good guess, I do not have the answer right now. My guess though it is so simple we are missing it.

"In fact I have heard if you don't combine internal with external, hard with soft , fast and slow changes, then it is not totally taiji."

Reply) Yes, I like that one.

"Also what about fajin? It would seem to take alot of energy."

Reply) That is one of my questions. Is fajin Taoist Chuan? Or an add on with Shaolin influence. It seems to me that fajin could be used against the person emitting it by a person that went with the flow and kept it simple.

"So I wonder about making progress and progressing in taiji, it seems to require effort , when other Tao school methods don't use as much force, but they use some force sometimes for specific reasons. Taiji as a martial art is probably more physical due to the fact that it's concerned with manipulating the phsical world with a more physical energy. At the higher levels of Taoist qigong and meditation there is less phsical force used and more mental energy. I don't know , it seems a complete system would contain hard and soft, martial arts, healing and meditation and moral cultivation. This is just my understanding and I don't know as much as some others in taiji or qigong.(but I know a little bit at least)"

Reply) Thanks this last paragraph is what I am exploring. After some time in Tai Chi I am staring to challenge and test the theories that I have been given. Kinda like a scientist doing testing and asking questions and not just accepting something as the truth. I think Tai Chi theory is good but at the same time I feel something is missing or misunderstood. If the theory of Tai Chi were actualized Tai Chi would dominate the UFC and other fight venues. Why is it not actualized?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Why is it not actualized?


Not many can really do it.

Those that can have no interest in these venues.

The idea that they are the only real test is kinda, mmm small minded.

Reveres the question, why is it that no named sportive player has gone to China looked for and challenged the highest people in each art and come back to tell every one about it ? ;)

[brassmonkey]

I like your style Rollback, asking alot of tough questions. But is anyone here even qualified to compare Taoism and Tai Chi Chuan? There is a good comparison of the Tao Te Cheng and Yang TCC Classics in 1 of Douglas Wile's books.

[Roll Back]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
Why is it not actualized?


Not many can really do it.

Those that can have no interest in these venues.

The idea that they are the only real test is kinda, mmm small minded.

Reveres the question, why is it that no named sportive player has gone to China looked for and challenged the highest people in each art and come back to tell every one about it ? ;)

I agree, BUT, master's of old did compete. Why not now?

[Roll Back]

Originally posted by brassmonkey
I like your style Rollback, asking alot of tough questions. But is anyone here even qualified to compare Taoism and Tai Chi Chuan? There is a good comparison of the Tao Te Cheng and Yang TCC Classics in 1 of Douglas Wile's books.

Thanks, I'll look for the book. As for who is qualified, I have no idea. I decided to post here after reading other message boards and I felt that this board had a balance of knowing yet not knowing. If you know what, I mean? :)