Two Fighting clips of students

[German Bai Lung]

For Mantis108 nearly insists of posting them here, I will post two clips of some students of mine being in a training fight with and without gloves.

The fighting are meant, as fa-jing said before, to improve skills and learn, learn learn! The fortune to watch himself on video and to see the mistakes being made ist great! We did that with forms also!

But okay, watch, enoy and feel free to critisize (I went through hard critism with these clips already! ;) )

Fighting without Gloves (http://www.bailung.de/Mantisfight1.mov)

Sanda with Gloves (http://www.bailung.de/Sanda1.mov)

[mantis108]

Thanks for posting the clips. I encouraged you to do so eventhough you were concern about the reaction that might repeat from the German board.

I would like to share my thoughts on them with other as I have already shared with you in our emails. Hope you don't mind.

About the first clip:

http://www.bailung.de/Mantisfight1.mov

I like this clip. You can see the disciplines of mantis. To some people, they would think there is a lot of hand slapping but the truth is both side are using the hand combinations to gain the dominant positions. There are few that landed on the sides of the faces too. You can clearly see the attempts to do Deng Ta or Deng Pu takedowns with one guy (although he ended up being thrown). Also I am impressed with the agility of these guys they are alert and get on their feet as soon as they are thrown. There are plenty of the "take treasure" type of moves, which turned into shoot in, as set ups for other moves which shows an attempt in applying the fake high hit low or vice versa type of mantis stuff. The body methods are there (ie turuing). I think the training shows here. Also it is very nice to see that Chin Na (mainly elbow lock) is being attempted but as soon as it is no go, it is changed to something else. The flow is quite wonderful. It is more fluid in this clip. Although, I think some sport people might not like this one as much. But technically, I like this one.

http://www.bailung.de/Sanda1.mov

This one is pure lovely for the energy. The kicks and sweeps are superb! The conditioning is great. Man, I should beef up the training of my students. There are plenty of fast hand actions. We can see the use of hook grab pluck type of action going on even with the groves. The format is different but it is beautifully done with mantis flavor. I think it is quality stuff that you might want to share on the site. Sport people would like this one.

Do you mind if I post these on my own forum?

These 2 clips give a good idea of the broadness of your training both for the art and for the sport. BTW, I favor no glove over gloved. It is just more possibilities.

As for critics:

Well, I think their ideas of using techniques in mantis is different. I see the mainland manits rationale more so than HK mantis rationale in the clips that you provided. In all honesty, the first clip could use a bit more Chin Na, Pai An and/or Kao Do method to give more "defination". but that's more easier say than done. If they can do that, well those 2 would have been the sifu long ago, right? LOL... Your job would have been done! :) Anyway, don't worry about critics. You have to know what you are doing. If no one is to believe you, you have to believe in yourself. BTW, this knowledge is handed down from your teachers. If it is good for them, it is good for you. Also people just don't realize that different methodologies breed different Kung Fu. Clip 1 (forms and drills and all) and 2 (hit heavy bag and all) of yours shows to me that you have a versatile curriculum and that's a great thing. More importantly, the central theme "the mantis stuff" are presented in both clips. That consistancy is IMHO most important. if we were to claim that we practice and teach mantis fighting than we should have that consistancy regardless of the chosen format for delivery be it forms, self defense, sparring, art or sport etc...

I understand and respect your wish not to show them but I would think it's refreshing to see them.

<<<For both are students and one of them are just 4 Years learning from
me, both never did MA before, they did in my opinion their work fine.
We took the video for correcting and learning some important tactical
moves. But I always thought the clips are not that bad...>>>

They are quite top notch. You should be proud of yourself. I know how hard it is to train someone. It takes 2 to Kung Fu - teacher and student. I wish I have hard working students as yours.

Just some thoughts that I would like to share.

Mantis108

PS Taojie (stealing intercept) would be a great 2 man form for sharpening the skills in the first clip as well.

[Life long Student]

Fantastic, it was a pleasure, and very inspiring.

Thank you for posting these clips.

[B.Tunks]

Bai Lung.

Thankyou for posting, it is brave to put your students up for criticism.
In my opinion the taller guy was far out classed and kept overstepping his range (fighting far too close and also attempting to take the legs and ending up turning his back and head on the short guy several times) but this allowed for some good technique from the dark haired guy. At least there was some genuine attempt to use mantis throws and footwork, along with hooking and grasping.
The second fight had a few good leg attacks too but there definitely seemed a propensity to get those high kicks going more, maybe because of the gloves?
I dont know why there is some bouncing around though (breaking the root with the ground is done as little as possible in my training experience) and also there isn't much leg stability because of the very high stances which results in a lot of stumbling (thats also just a personal opinion).

Respect for posting the clips and keep up good work!

I would love to post some of my kids fighting, it is very different again. I have a lot on VHS but unfortunately I dont have the technological know how to put it online but I will hassle one of my students to help me out with this soon. Otherwise i am just another big mouth...

B.T

[Oso]

GBL, nothing wrong with those clips as an example of in-school sparring. good stuff.

as far as criticism from the sport fighter group...the good ones won't bash even though they may offer negative criticism. IMHO, give a listen and see if anything they say applies. Negative criticism, if phrased correctly, can only help one become a better fighter.

thanks for the look.

[mantisben]

The first Clip:

These guys are very comfortable throwing hands. I saw very good evasive maneuvers, lots of straight and circular techniques. And as for the sweeps, in my opinion, even if they didn't sweep the person off their feet, they were executed at the right time. They saw the opportunity to sweep and they went for it.

The second clip:

I thought I saw them execute those overhead hammer strikes executed in the form Dai Fan Che! Maybe that isn't what it was, but that is what it looked like to me. Excellent!

It is evident that they both can defend themselves well. From the constant forward energy they're displaying, they are in great cardiovascular(?) shape, and if necessary, can go the distance in a fight.

Finally, I'd like to say it is obvious, to me, that these fighters can hit ALOT harder than they are hitting each other during this training session. I understand that they're training, and not trying to bust each other wide open.

I'm not qualified to critique these fighters, and if I was, I don't think I'd have any criticism to offer based on these 2 clips. They both did an excellent job. They're both very well trained fighters. I'm sure, they are both grateful and will never forget that they have a Sifu who prepared them to defend themselves successfully in combat.


Thank you for posting the clips!!!

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by B.Tunks

In my opinion the taller guy was far out classed and kept overstepping his range (fighting far too close and also attempting to take the legs and ending up turning his back and head on the short guy several times) but this allowed for some good technique from the dark haired guy.


Yes, thats true. I told him so, but he have to work on this some trainings more ...



The second fight had a few good leg attacks too but there definitely seemed a propensity to get those high kicks going more, maybe because of the gloves?
I dont know why there is some bouncing around though (breaking the root with the ground is done as little as possible in my training experience) and also there isn't much leg stability because of the very high stances which results in a lot of stumbling (thats also just a personal opinion).
B.T [/B]

I´m not quite sure, if I understand what you mean... hmm, stability could worked out better, thats right. Stumbling, I think thats because both are trying to keep the pressure high without finishing the fight. So the sweeps are very easy to finish. Both are tall and used to fight with smaller ones. So they try to use their
punches from a higher position.

Lots of handmoves we worked out with Au Lao Choy from any angle. Even with gloves: when you can´t grap than push!

Thank you all for the responce, and yes: I will take the critism to work on the mistakes!

[18elders]

Thanks for the clips, much better than the wing chun vs. mantis

[B.Tunks]

Bai Lung,


Originally posted by German Bai Lung

Stumbling, I think thats because both are trying to keep the pressure high without finishing the fight. So the sweeps are very easy to finish. Both are tall and used to fight with smaller ones. So they try to use their
punches from a higher position.


That makes sense.
thanks,
b.t

[Ren Blade]

I really wanted to see the videos but can't. I even tried right clicking both and doing the "save as". But I don't even know where to located my quicktime in my computer through browse to play these 2 vids when I'm asked to "open with".

But by what everyone is saying, they sound like worth watching. I want to see them anyway.

[fa_jing]

Very nice videos. I think that what we are seeing in the first clip is only possible when two students of the same style spar. That is my opinion. It is very useful to train this way - for developing flow among other things.

For the second clip, I was impressed by the typical Mantis throw performed by both of the students, as well as their handspeed. One thing that I would tell them though is that they spend too much time in punching range (for gloved fighting) - this gives more opportunity for the opponent to slip a punch past the defense - I think that they could use some clinching and either work the clinch or try to takedown the opponent from the clinch.

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Very nice videos. I think that what we are seeing in the first clip is only possible when two students of the same style spar. That is my opinion. It is very useful to train this way - for developing flow among other things.

Yes that is possible. But more for the rules, not because of the techniques. Right now, there was no opportunity to do that with an external practitioner of another style.


Originally posted by fa_jing

For the second clip, I was impressed by the typical Mantis throw performed by both of the students, as well as their handspeed. One thing that I would tell them though is that they spend too much time in punching range (for gloved fighting) - this gives more opportunity for the opponent to slip a punch past the defense - I think that they could use some clinching and either work the clinch or try to takedown the opponent from the clinch.

The clinch and takedowns are at fact not at the best. But I work on it. Problem is the floor: its very solid (good for forms) with swinging ground but hard when you hit it! So we must be careful with takedowns otherwise we got to often ellbowfractures or something like that!

Thanks for the good tipps nevertheless!

[fa_jing]

I know what you mean about the floor. The few times that I ever got to train sparring in all ranges with intent, was in a friend's backyard - he has soft grass. That is even better for falling than a mat.

How do you learn to fall in Praying Mantis? I know only of two methods: one is the hand-slapping method favored by Japanese stylists but is primarily for use on mats...the other is the Shaui - chaio method which is to basically fists over ears, head down, knees up so you are curled into a ball.

[Tainan Mantis]

There is also slapping with the bottom of the foot.
This is good for oudoors, becasue people wear shoes so the foot and leg can absorb more energy than the hand slap method.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by fa_jing
one is the hand-slapping method favored by Japanese stylists but is primarily for use on mats...the other is the Shaui - chaio method which is to basically fists over ears, head down, knees up so you are curled into a ball.
The hand-slapping method is the one I was taught. The "rolling" during a fall is something I do kind of instintively, since I used to do Gymnastics. The "Fists over ears" is NOT something I do when I fall, but it makes sense if I'm gonna roll after a fall during combat. The Shaui-Chaio method is something I definitely have to try.

Thanks for sharing on this forum!


There is also slapping with the bottom of the foot.

I gotta try this one too! Thanks again Tainan!

[fa_jing]

Actually fists over ears is not so much for rolling - it is to take the impact of a fall/throw over a wide area (like your side) without sticking out any bodyparts and banging them on the ground. It will hurt more but you get used to it, and are less likely to break something.

[cerebus]

Excellent clips! I always enjoy seeing traditional kung fu practitioners who can actually fight with their art! (Not enough of these around, in my opinion). Thanks alot.:D

[German Bai Lung]

Just a note:

I like to share the clips with you! But not with the whole world!

So would you be so kind, like Robert/Mantis108 did, and ASK me before posting the link in other foren! I can see from which side the people get on my side and its not for free to have a lot of traffic!

Thanks ...

PS:
For the ones who did post the links on other pages: please remove!

[Merryprankster]

Sport guy here! I always love sparring clips!

Some points--in the first clip, I'd say lets be careful about assigning too much praise on the hand speed. Anybody has fast hands when you're playing, in essence, tag. This was clearly a light contact sparring session--and there's nothing wrong with that as it's a good tool.

Watch your students' structure on the leg grappling attacks. If they bend over the way that one fellow did they may get kneed in the face or worse if somebody sprawls on them. I guess what I'm saying is that you don't know what you're going to run into out there, so try to minimize vulnerabilities.

Great fluidity--as a light contact sparring session, that's EXACTLY what the emphasis should be on--flow from one thing to the next.

In the second clip, I think you see what happens when people aren't actually used to beating the crap out of each other. They fall over a lot whenever they get a little help from the other guy. What I mean by this is that excessive light contact sparring tends to breed a speed vs. power mentality not unlike point sparring--that connection with the ground isn't there and it doesn't take much to disrupt their movement or put them on their ass. A bit more full contact work will solve that problem. They'll learn better balance, better base (better root and connectivity to the ground in CMA parlance, from what I've gathered) and be able to hit harder, faster. As an example, boxers and kickboxers, while they do get knocked over, compared to the number, power, and speed of the shots they take, don't get knocked over that often--and whole fights go by where nobody gets knocked over at all even when people are getting hit very hard.

All in all, I'd say that was more fun to watch, and much better than a lot of the sparring clips I've seen. Really good foot combos in the second one, but IMO, there needs to be more medium heavy to full contact sparring to improve their balance. Excellent mobility though, and that's REALLY hard to teach, IMO.

[German Bai Lung]

@ Merryprankster:

thank you for your detailed post. Your hints are good and I will try to introduce them more in my training.


Watch your students' structure on the leg grappling attacks. If they bend over the way that one fellow did they may get kneed in the face or worse if somebody sprawls on them. I guess what I'm saying is that you don't know what you're going to run into out there, so try to minimize vulnerabilities.

You are absolutly right! Never told him to do so, but sometimes under pressure you get some bad ideas! ;)

For the full Contact-Hints: you right by saying this. But note: not everyone is interested in hit or even more getting hit with full power! The smaller one (dominating the fights) did full contact sometimes. On a tournament he got second place and hardache for a week. The first place was lightyears away and make him look not so good.... but he learned al lot in that fight. After that he only fight only one more time full contact on a tournament and lost intrest in that kind comparison.
So, we don´t have so much students yet, who are physical and psychological on a full-contact level.

[Merryprankster]

So, we don´t have so much students yet, who are physical and psychological on a full-contact level.

No, you are absolutely right. And forcing them to do something they don't want to do is just going to cause them to leave and not learn.

There are people who really want to fight from day one... and then, there are people who really want to fight till they get hit for real the first time! :D

My advice on that is shin guards, gloves, and face cage head gear. You can also use a boxing style body shield, but I find that a bit cumbersome. Fairtex makes a belly protector that is actually not too bad and doesn't slide around TOO much but is far less cumbersome. It's sort of a belt thing and as long as it's fastened tight, it does ok. I REALLY HATE full cage head gear, but for people who are not yet ready to eat a hand or foot in the face, it's better. At least they'll get used to their head snapping back and the shock of a heavy blow to the head.

Oh, boxing suppliers should have what they call a groin/kidney protector. This offers a little less protection than the Fairtex belly protector--it will expose the middle and upper abdomen without padding, but it WILL protect, the intestines, the bladder and the kidneys. It's standard equipment and keeps you from ****ing blood if you get rocked in the kidneys...

Proper protective equipment can go a long way towards minimizing both fear of getting hit and damage during sparring. I mean, I never spar with strikes without a cup, big gloves, headgear, a mouth piece, and shinguards at a minimum, and prefer the kidney protector over just the cup.

Again though I am sincere in my praise. Nice work!

[Tainan Mantis]

I prefer a corner of aluminun siding strapped to my calf under my pajamas.

Merryprankster,
Informative post!

[Merryprankster]

I prefer not wearing shinguards. Senseless shin bone will give me some advantage in fighting.

For sparring, shinpads. When you're going full contact and get shin checked while sparring, believe me, you'll want them.

You can really put yourself OOC by getting a bone bruise on your leg if you spar without them. Me...I'd rather train.

For shin conditioning, none. And you condition them by beating the crap out of them on the heavy bag--not by falling over on the ground, clutching your leg in pain because the other fellow shin checked you and you weren't wearing pads.

No--accidents can and do happen. Better to wear pads and go full contact--and toughen your shins on the bag, then go light all the time and not get used to that body shuddering impact.

[Merryprankster]

The time invested in the "senseless shin" will be well worthy for the future pay back in one's life time.

I'm not arguing with this. I'm saying that shinpads while sparring is a good idea because accidents can and do happen. better to toughen your shins FIRST before you try sparring without the pads.

That's all I meant.

The Muay Thai coaches I've met have advocated the first one (although some don't like it) and beating the heavy bag with your shin repeatedly (over 100 times per day) and then rubbing it down with thai liniment. And I'd have to say that Thai's are probably the kings of shin conditioning.

I'm not suggesting that shin toughening isn't important. I'm just arguing over timing--you don't take full throws in judo before you learn to fall. I think this is similar. A bad idea to go and get deep bone bruises when you can build up your shins gradually, and then be prepared for it. If you want to spar with no shin pads after that, be my guest. I'd probably not do it every day, but I doubt it will cause so much problem for somebody conditioned.

I should note this is not my area of expertise though--I am a grappler first. I've never worked that hard on shin conditioning--I'm just regurgitating from the MT guys I've worked with and my own limited experiences.

[Oso]

http://store.titleboxing.com/title-rib-ab-protector.html

I've been looking at this one.