Hsing Yi Question

[l@zylee]

I am about to embark on my first Hsing Yi lesson this Sunday. All I know about it so far is that it is an internal art but faster than Tai Chi. A couple of questions for you.

I already study Wing chun and Yang Style Tai Chi. Will I just be learning the form like I do mainly @ my Tai Chi lessons or will it be more like my Wing Chun lessons i.e. forms, applications, drills etc.

Cheers

Lee
:D :D

[brassmonkey]

noone here will be able to answer your question unless they know your teacher specifically

[l@zylee]

:confused:

Ok, Maybe I worded it wrong. Basically what I am asking is:

Is Hsing Yi very similar to Ta'i Chi? I know its faster but is it just one long form or not?

Thanks again

Lee

[brassmonkey]

"Is Hsing Yi very similar to Ta'i Chi? I know its faster but is it just one long form or not?"

ok I see your asking about the form, well it all depends on the families of Tai Chi and Hsing I. *Lol* your getting a lil closer to a real answer.

If your simply looking for a change of speed in form since you rely on your Wing Chun for fighting just practice that at different speeds would be my advice.

[l@zylee]

If your simply looking for a change of speed in form since you rely on your Wing Chun for fighting just practice that at different speeds would be my advice.

Thanks for your reply, no I am just exploring the internal arts, my Sifu teaches both Wing Chun and Tai Chi, from a self defense point of view I love my Wing Chun, but what I most enjoy is doing my Tai Chi and Qigong in the early morning. I recently watched a program on cable about the Wudang School in China and they were practising Hsing Yi which I thought looked great and since I have found out that its an internal art I am off to a club about 20 miles away to have a go. Just thought i'd try to find out more about it.

Cheers

Lee:D :D

[brassmonkey]

"Just thought i'd try to find out more about it."

cool. Here's a couple sites for some reading:

www.hsing-i.com

www.chinafrominside.com

www.emptyflower.com

good luck

[foolinthedeck]

from the wing chun perspective, mine at least. xing yi seems like wing chuns internal uncle. also from my experience, its closer to wing chun than taiji.

i think 'faster' misses it, its not faster than taiji but it is more direct, uses the centreline and triangulation more, is more violent and combat orientated.

my other understanding of xing yi is that you have to perform techniques hundreds of times or more, i hear that it can be boring... you dont do a series in a form, you just do a particular move hundreds of times a day until the power develops... I'd recommend cartmell and millars xing yi nei gong.

[Syd]

I guess I'm just curious as to why anyone would begin learning an art they know nothing about and had not researched well before hand.

[[Censored]]

Hsing Yi has forms, same as everyone else.

[l@zylee]

I guess I'm just curious as to why anyone would begin learning an art they know nothing about and had not researched well before hand.

Oh, are you now, well firstly I have and continue to research Hsing Yi and and other internal martial arts. For years now I have travelled 20 miles once a week for one to one tuition with my teacher. Since starting to learn Yang Style Tai Chi from him I have developed a keen interest in other arts it has come to my attention that close to my current school there is a club that teaches Hsing Yi so I'm going to take a look, whats wrong with that!...............jeez. If i don't like it and its not for me I'll leave.




Hsing Yi has forms, same as everyone else.

Not quite sure how you mean that but I'd kinda guessed Hsing Yi has forms derrrr, with it being described to me as internal I just wondered if it was --one long form a la Tai Chi-- or a series of forms are involved like Gung Fu styles.....Hope I don't have to explain all of the above again.

Thank for the few informative replies.

Lee

[backbreaker]

From what I've seen of xingyi and wing chun, xingyi has more angles in it's stances, more changing footwork and stances, positioning your body at different angles, and a strategy of collecting energy first and then attacking aggresvely the opponent instantly. I hardly know anything about wing chun but from what I've seen it has the hips mainly forward facing the opponent square with the whole front of your body facing the opponent and then attack him alot running forward. Maybe, I don't know:confused:

[foolinthedeck]

backbreaker:
your analysis of the two has accuracy, however, all depends on the individual and depth of knowledge.

when people have studied wing chun for many years, the description you gave for xing yi becomes extremely accurate for wing chun.

thats my perspective and its not the only one.

[Daredevil]

While it is entirely true that without knowing the teacher it is very hard to answer the question in much detail, but I can try to be more helpful regarding some of Xingyi's basics.

The core of the system is the santishi, the basic stance, and the Five Element Fists, which are basically very short forms. It's safe to say these (should) will be emphasized heavily.

Re: Forms -- following the basics, there are other, longer forms as well.

[Thundermudd]

XY and Taiji are way different in my opinion. There are a few energetic principles that are similar, but not that many. I have heard it described as:
Taiji is pretty
Xing Yi is NASTY.
If you study wing chun then it may help you w/ Xing Yi more than Taiji, but I dont study WC so I dont know.
I do know that after prac. Taiji for a while and then learning the 5 elements in xy all I could say was wow. I think that xy is easier to apply than taiji. Not much silk realing; just beng chuan all the way baby!

[backbreaker]

The idea of the 3 harmonies of the elbow/knees , shoulders/hips , bai hui/ huiyin , as well as harmonies of body mind and breath, and also the yi leads the qi which leads the body, and similar ideas are contained in both xingyi and taiji , so they seem related to me. Taiji can be nasty also

[Brad]

Not quite sure how you mean that but I'd kinda guessed Hsing Yi has forms derrrr, with it being described to me as internal I just wondered if it was --one long form a la Tai Chi-- or a series of forms are involved like Gung Fu styles.....Hope I don't have to explain all of the above again.
From what I've seen and learned of Xingyi, there's no super long form like taiji. Short forms and shorter forms(compared to taiji), two person forms, lots of single technique form work, sparring, and standing practice.

[l@zylee]

Thanks Brad for that and everyone else. I have learnt a lot more about Hsing Yi from the websites mentioned earlier. As I say I'll go and have a look at it on Sunday and take it from there.

Lee:D :D

[shaolin kungfu]

check out this site. look at the videos. also look at the ones on emptyflower.

brazilian xing yi site (http://xingyitchuen.com.br/index_2.html)

[Thundermudd]

backbreaker - agreed. Many similarities in the conceptual structure. In my opinion though - I simply see XY as being more direct and easier to apply. Mean no disregard to true taiji practiotioners that learn the martial side of the art. I just see about 90% of the taiji being taught for health. I see about 90% of XY being taught to whoop a$$!

[backbreaker]

;)

[batesy]

Well, as it's Sunday I hope your first Xing Yi experience went well. Like you I started out in Wing Chun and have been converted to Xing Yi in the last year or so. The Wing Chun I was taught was more static/evasive than XIng Yi. The way we approach Xing Yi is topile into the opponent and hit ,hit, hit, rolling like a big ball. I fuind the mindset to be very different, more aggressive, less forgiving. Hope you had a good session.:)

[CD Lee]

I am a Xingyi student, and have not done Wing Chun, although it looks pretty neat to me. Been doing this over 2 years now, and after reading so much from others and such, I would say that each teacher is so very different they way the approach the teaching of the art.

If I stand back objectively, and look, I think the greatest things I have learned from Xingyi in our school so far are things not mentioned much. How to be connected, centered and how to move with lifting, sinking, expansion and contraction. These kind of things are part of Xingyi that may be things different from Wing Chun, but to me make a huge difference in how you do movements and deliver power from certain positions.

I know these things get mentioned every so often, but when we talk Xingyi, I hear words like direct, short, nasty, simple. I agree with all of these as Xingyi appears, but inside is where the ability to make these attributes work really well begin. The basics are the things that fuel the engine and to me, are pretty darn boring. But they do work.

I like the rolling ball statement. That is to me as well, the essence of Xingyi in action. Not a bouncing ball, but a rolling ball. Also, if Wing Chun does in fact square the hips with the opponent, then that would be a major difference with XY.

[devere]

CD Lee summed it up best and those are the most important things in xingyi - body alignment. When practiced to death and done correctly you learn to use whole body power. Think of it like this: you just moved into a new house and your pushing your refrigerator into place in your kitchen. You wouldn't stand there, arms extended and push the thing with your hands. You'd lean into it and push it with your whole body.

Most agree Xingyiquan was created circa 1600s based on the forward thrusting movement of the spear as well as the stepping movements of the rooster. The 5 primary forms (the 5 elements or wu xing) are short and linear. However, the movements in the form contain both smaller linear and circular movements depending on the style. The aim is generating and perfecting 5 different types of power (pi, beng, zuan, pao, heng) much like how Taiji has 4 primary types of power (ward off, roll back, press forward, push downward).

The 5 basic forms are later expanded and explored further in 12 animal forms as well as weapons (Dao, Staff, Spear and Needles). There are also longer forms utilizing aspects of both the elements and animals together such as Lianhuan Quan (Connected Fist), the 2 man form An Shen Pao (Stable Body Pounding and Xingyi's longest and most complex form Za Shi Chui (Mixed Forms Beating).

The art, while to the layman looks simple, is actually tough to master. The punches are very powerful. I liken Xingyi to a mortar round going off.

Here's a vid of a longer xingyi form - the basic forms are only 1 or 2 movements repeated over and over:
http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/hsingyform.mov
You can see many of the animals here: tiger, horse, snake, water strider as well as others.

You can also find anything you ever wanted to know about Xingyiquan at my website: www.emptyflower.com

Ciao,
David

[CD Lee]

Hey thanks for posting the mov file Dave. Who is that doing the form? The guy makes Xingyi look really good. He moves very well, and is coordinated with smooth power. I am not doing animals, but I think I recognised a horse or tiger in there somwhere with the two handed strikes. Very interesting footwork moving backwards as well toward the end of the vid. I also noticed his Pi Chuan is a little different than most I have seen, with his two arms more seperated at the begginning of the movement.

I can vouch for Daves site. It is a great resource. It has some really good articles if you want to spend some time looking at classic materials, see some positions, and get a look at the essence of what the art is about.

[devere]

I don't know who it is Lee, but I bet someone on my forum could answer that question. In fact, I know someone could - if yr curious ask there.

Yes, Horse is the movement you see where he's holding his hands in fists with his palms to the ground. Tiger is where he has his hands open, palms facing forward like he's pushing something.

Thanks for the voucher, pally! :cool:

[Joseph_alb]

Listen to David, he's da man on Xingyi.
The old man doing the animals is the current lineage holder of Song style, if i recall correctly.

Xingyi is a principle based art, not technique based or a set of movements. Its more of a series of rules and guidelines u follow, and afterwards every movement u make following the rules is Xingyi. And for those of u guys that think that XY basics are boring, well, trust me, the details are small...but their there......
and theres enough of em to last a lifetime.

Then again, there's an old saying regarding Xingyi practice, it says
that you cant be too smart when u practice xingyi, because it takes a slight amount of stubborness (is this spelled correctly?) to drill a single movement 1000 times. If ur too smart you will think you own the drill by the time u hit 20, and 20 leads to very bad Xingyi.

[backbreaker]

That above xingyi clip was awesome and very interesting. It definately shows that xingyi is principle based and not technique based. The similarities between taiji and xingyi are uncanny.

[Brithlor]

"I like the rolling ball statement. That is to me as well, the essence of Xingyi in action. Not a bouncing ball, but a rolling ball. Also, if Wing Chun does in fact square the hips with the opponent, then that would be a major difference with XY."

Just curious, but do you consider the hips squared with the opponent in this picture? Just wondering since I've always heard that wing chun fights with squared off hips... but from my experiance with WC that isn't true except in the Siu Lim Tao... but I don't have much experiance in other martial arts so wing chun could indeed have more "squared" off hips than others.

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images/photos/photo43.jpg

BTW, how many forms does Xingyi have?

[devere]

5 element fist forms (wu xing)

Pi Quan (splitting fist) metal
Beng Quan (crushing fist) wood
Zuan Quan (drilling fist) water
Pao Quan (pounding fist) fire
Heng Quan (crossing fist) earth

12 animal forms - these are expanded variations of the five fists incorporating the spirit of the animal (the Hebei system combines the last two into one form)

Long (dragon)
Hu (tiger)
Hou (monkey)
Ma (horse)
Tuo (water strider - also known as aligator or tortise)
Ji (chicken)
Yao (sparrow hawk)
Yan (swallow)
She (snake)
Tai (tai bird)
Yin Xiong (combined bear and eagle)

Lianhuan Quan (connected Fist) - a combination of the 5 fists into one form. VID:
http://www.brainsalad.com/mov/xingyi_1.wmv

Wu Shing SHeng Ke - a two man form focusing on the mutual creation and destruction of the 5 elements

An Shen Pao - two man form

Za Shi Chui - a long form combining both elements and animals

Depending on the style and family, there are many other various forms, but the above forms are the ones you'll find in most styles of xingyiquan. I pulled the following right off my site:

Niu Pu Pi - "Pi Quan with oblique step"
Fan Pi - "Overturned Pi Quan"
Niu Pu Fan Pi - "Overturned Pi Quan with oblique step"
Niu Pu Zuan - "Zuan Quan with oblique step"
Niu Pu Beng - "Crushing Fist with oblique step"
Mu Yum Pao Quan - "Cloud Hands Pounding Fist"
Tong Tien Pao Quan - "Pounding Fist Up to the Sky"
Dou Ji Xing - "Fighting Chicken Form"
Ji Xing Si Ba - "Four Seizes of Chicken Form"
Mao Shi Le - "Cat Washes Face"
Wu Hua Pao - "Five Flower Pounding"
He Yi - "Uniting Into One"
Ji Xing Si Ba - "Chicken Form Four Grasping"
Liu He Quan - "Six Combinations Form"
Wu Shou - "Five Hands"
Ba Zi Gong - "Eight Characters Method"
Ba Shi - "Eight Postures"
Shuang Ba Shi - "Double Eight Postures"
Xingyi Shi San Shi - "Xingyi Thirteen Postures"
Ji Gang Ba Shi - "Budda's Warrior Eight Forms"
Long Xing Ba Shi - "Dragon Style Eight Forms"
Shi Er Lian Quan - "Twelve Linked Fists"
Shi Er Hong Chui - "Twelve Red Hammers"
Zhou Tao Huan - "Nine Linked Set"
Wu Xing Pao Chui - "Five Element Pounding Fist"
Wu Hua Pao - "Five Flowers Cannon"
Wu Xing Liu Shi - "Five Elements Six Postures"
Yan Shou - "Covering Hand"
Xiong Xiang - "Image of the Bear"

of course you can find more info on my site: emptyflower.com

[CD Lee]

Just curious, but do you consider the hips squared with the opponent in this picture?


No. In the picture, both of them have their hips turned at an angle to each other. I can't comment on anthing else Wing Chun does. I am not familiar enough with it.

Joseph_Alb:

When I say the basics are boring, what I really mean is that in comparison to the other flashier arts, you have to spend some time doing work on less flashy things. Lots of time, that at first, may seem like a waste of time. But, when developed to the next level, you see how it makes a real difference. To me, basics are much less boring than they were when I started. That is because I was stuborn, very stuborn, and I trusted my Sifu. So then I start to see the result, feel the difference. Now of course, I know that work on the basics is the real core of how Xingyi works. So that is the good stuff really. Once you believe it that is.

Here is the real eye opener however. A brand new student walks in the door, and you start teaching them these same basics, and then you see and feel those things they cannot do, that you now take for granted. Mostly, I see the new guys disjointed in movements, and not connected.

You know how new guys are. Hey, lets learn to fight and punch. Where are the five element fists? Are we learning them and 10 apps today? You know, all in one lesson.

[Joseph_alb]

"What??? you guys dont do high kicks???"

:p

[Felipe Bido]

Wow...this thread is very interesting

The xingyi shown in the clip that DeVere posted is Song style Xingyi: Short, sudden strikes (one-inch power), high posture, very powerful.

The variations between styles depend on the branch (Hebei, Shanxi, Henan), and the families of each branch ), like Song, Che, Bu, Shang Yunxian, etc. Each head master took what worked for him, and developed their own family Xingyi after that. That's why there are so many variations. But all of them fall into the three main branches.

About that loooong forms list that DeVere posted, we ned to update it, because I have seen a few more forms (like a dozen) :D

But, the Five Elements and the Twelve Animals, together with the Lianhuan (Five Element Linked Forms) and the Zha Shichui are mandatory in all Hebei and Shanxi styles, regardless of family.

[backbreaker]

I still in the back of my mind gotta think that internal iron palm to the ear'll knock 'em the **** out