The Wing Chun Technician

[Phil Redmond]

For those interested I would like to start a thread on the technical aspects of WC, (whatever that means).
I consider WC a "fighting" art. Those with like minds will contribute. I don't have all the answers and I'm willing to learn from the experiences of others who have used WC in "no holds barred", street encounters, etc. If you want to discuss lineage, philosophy there are other threads for that. My first question is training how to deal with a boxer's constant bobbing, weaving, ducking. I have used a double end bag, "crazy ball" in the past. I find that it helps train accuracy with the straight punch. The only problem with that is that it doesn't bob diagonally like a real person because it stays at a constant height. Also, any input on countering a really fast jab cross, jab body hooks, etc. I have a few methods I use. I'd like to hear from others.

[yenhoi]

1) I have a thing called a speed ball, not a speed bag, its mounted like a double ended bag, on a nylon cord thats attached to two points, mines mounted diagonally, so when you hit it less then dead ccenter, it bounces around almost randomly. Its smaller then most spped bags too, like 4 inches in diameter. Only my teacher seems to be able to hit it consistently.

2)Best thing would be to find boxers that have good jab/cross/hook/uppercut/bob/slip/weave etc and practice various parts of your game against his game.

3)We call them counter-for-counter drills... its not sparring, both of you know what the other is going to do, you just dont know when or how exactly.

imo.

:confused:

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks, that' s the kind of posts I'm looking for. I have a new student in Canada who's a boxing trainer. He hits from all angles even when he looks off balance. Those counter-for counter drills sound good. I going to ask him to work with me after class on them. Can you give me a better picture of how you mounted your speedball diagonally? Also, where did you buy it? I have a speed bag/ball from Ringside that has a smaller ball over the larger one so you can practice shots to the body and to the head.

[Ernie]

Phil
the only way to deal with a boxer , is to work of a boxer , not just one but every one you can get your hands on big , small , fast , powerful and so on . until then it all theories

that being said ,
bobbing and weaving , if he dips low catch his neck and rip a knee in his face , one good knee to the grill is worth a thousand upper cuts , if it's friendly the just use you fook to ride his neck and mess up his balance , he will instinctivly try and weave out , crack him when he pops up '' dirty boxing tactics ''

now the guy with a crispy jab , this depends on you ability to close the gap and close the jab line while monitoring the rear power hand , you can use what ever type of wedging shape you want '' fook,man sau. bong , quan , punch as long as your foot work and angle are in a fashion that smoothers and cuts off the jab and his escape route ,
but you must monitor the rear power hand if he has a tight guard and it's held close to the chest , pin it on his chest '' he s planning on a straight cross or a upper cut ''
if it's a loss guard and his glove floating off the chest , here comes the overhand or hook line , you can intercept with a shoulder stop or elbow stop , use what ever tool you system prefers , tan bui, use a line to cut the arch.


the guy with good footwork and rhythm , your in for a long day if he is a pro level but accept that he is a pro and you are not , so your consistency rate wont be as high as a guy who just thinks he has boxing footwork,
my best advice it going to be a little vague , understand how to use broken rhythm on entry , he is watching you he has a read and this read gives him a pattern of motion and reflex ,his eyes are very sensitive , so basically use his heightened attributes against him . lie to him with your motion . use left and right stance to cut off his escape routes , and apply forward pressure once your in never let him find his feet again, most people can't fight going backwards ....

just a few idea's off the cuff

[yuanfen]

Ernie sez:
most people can't fight going backwards ....
------------------------------------------------
True---but the flip side of the same prop. is that a good guy
can-but proper wc footwork can jam him/her.

FWIW Ernie w all your pics--- take a look at the original Sugar Ray
and the second Fulmer fight...slow it down and watch--- one of the greatest one punch(left low hook) knockouts ever- with Robinson going backwards...
or the one with Jones with his hands behind his back- balanced- then he comes out with a knock out right...

But "athleticism" is part of it... an older Robinson coulnt do it and Jones couldnt against Tarver-though he tried.

[Phil Redmond]

>>that being said ,
bobbing and weaving , if he dips low catch his neck and rip a knee in his face , one good knee to the grill is worth a thousand upper cuts , if it's friendly the just use you fook to ride his neck and mess up his balance , he will instinctivly try and weave out , crack him when he pops up '' dirty boxing tactics ''<<

Wow, when I read the first sentence I was thinking NO, it's friendly sparing to train the hands only. I'd do that if we were kickboxing. Then I read where you describe the friendly spar.

>>....now the guy with a crispy jab , this depends on you ability to close the gap and close the jab line while monitoring the rear power hand....<<

I sometimes lead with my "power" hand. I train not to have a perference. The rest of that paragrah has good points. Sounds like you've banged a little ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Ernie/yenhoi, Do you guys , (or anyone else) find it easier to fight a traditional martial artist than a boxer or un-orthodox fighter?
In my experience it seems so.

[Ernie]

joy
i watched the fight last night
and yes baiting some one in as your going back yet still on your heals with balance is still a good place to be if you can pull it off ,
but when your doing th 50 yard dash down someones center and there stumbling htis is more the backward i was talking about .

but the fight was awsome to watch , i'm watching the ali clips now.

phil
[[[Ernie/yenhoi, Do you guys , (or anyone else) find it easier to fight a traditional martial artist than a boxer or un-orthodox fighter?
In my experience it seems so.]]]

it is in my experience so far , wayyyyyyyyyyyyy easier , since most tradional martial artist '' sadly many of many of wing chun friends included '' are to fixed and stubborn ,
they can't adapt to the real pressure , of when things don' fit the preconditioned box .
they seem to lack experience and the ability to adapt , though theymay have a superior technical approach , they can't make it fit , if you alter the game a little , there are momentary pauses '' mental holes in time while they try to re adjust or over commit and force the wrong concept ''

that being said , the same mental hiccup can be used against a boxer , by altering the game but there just tougher , thai fighters are another tough conditioned bunch .


phil
[[Sounds like you've banged a little ]]

when i was first learning wing chun and all the way up to last year , i mixed it up '' trained with '' some hella good fighters , all of them were way out of my league , but they had good spirits and didn't hurt me to much ,
i learned alot from them , one inparticular was hollifields sparring patner a monster of a man , i'm a pretty big guy but this guy could pick me up like a child and dangle me in the air . he was like 6 fot 8 and 350 pounds , with blazing hand speed .
i got pages and pages of notes from our sessions , so yep i got dropped alot :D

[foolinthedeck]

i find it good to spar with wasps bees hornets etc,
they move in all directions very quick, if you can hit one then thats pretty good.

or, try this:
go in a small room with few objects. take a bouncy ball like you probably had as a kid. bounce it. (its evrywhere) try and hit it clean. nice drill.

[yuanfen]

FTD- That's funny:-. Go into a small room- smear yourself with
honey- turn loose a bunch of wasps bees fire ants a rattler or two
a python, a wild cat- close the door with a small transparent window have it locked from the outside and have a great time.
And yell to a friend to let you out when you are in deep trouble.

You can vary the training routine with different partners- a cobra instead of a diamond back, african bees instead of the garden variety- sand fleas, mississipi mosquitos,a pit bull instead of the cat- icrease the size and ferocity of these resisting opponents- you have the making of a real warrior.

Wear a blind fold or turn out the lights for another level.

Be sure to study science, history and theory, battlefield strategy and tactics before you enter the room-know beforehand what stance you will use.

Home is the sailor home from sea and the hunter home from the hill-know where your bai jong will be exactly and your vitamin pill.

[Ernie]

joy
[[You can vary the training routine with different partners- a cobra instead of a diamond back, african bees instead of the garden variety- sand fleas, mississipi mosquitos,a pit bull instead of the cat- icrease the size and ferocity of these resisting opponents- you have the making of a real warrior.
]]
i knew you were secretly sparring thanks for the advice:)

[canglong]

originally posted by Phil Redmond
My first question is training how to deal with a boxer's constant bobbing, weaving, ducking. I have used a double end bag, "crazy ball" in the past. I find that it helps train accuracy with the straight punch. Redmond Sifu, is there a rule of thumb to relate your question to TWC or in other words first I am wondering what TWC says you should do in this scenario and secondly how you either apply these rules of thumb or modified the rules in application when the time came to put the rules into action.

[Phil Redmond]

The wording in your question has me a little confused. If you're asking if TWC trains to puch at different angles the answer is yes.

[old jong]

Bobbing and weaving are defensive actions.Boxers usually don't do that when they are attacking. The best opportunity (imo) to hit a boxer is when he is himself on the attack and not bobbing /weaving.Or....you could use the old fighter pilot trick of aiming where the target will be when the bullets arrive!...;)

[Phil Redmond]

I'd like to add that this thread is about the technical aspect of WC. Any question that mentions lineage I'm ignoring. And I hope all interested in fighting will stay on topic as well.

[Phil Redmond]

Haymakers are easier to deal with than "tight" hooks to the body or head. Aside from proper distancing does anyone have any ideas? How about treating a tight head shot as an elbow strike?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yuanfen
FTD- That's funny:-. Go into a small room- smear yourself with
honey- turn loose a bunch of wasps bees fire ants a rattler or two
a python, a wild cat- close the door with a small transparent window have it locked from the outside and have a great time.
And yell to a friend to let you out when you are in deep trouble.

Nothing beats hunting wild boar in the Santa Cruz mountains. To make it sporting (for the boar), you can use a knife or a gun, as long as you're on foot. Some of the big 'uns run to the size of a volkswagen.

Regards,

[old jong]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
The wording in your question has me a little confused. If you're asking if TWC trains to puch at different angles the answer is yes.
Ah!....You mentionned lineage right there!...You should then ignore your own post!...;) :D

[Phil Redmond]

I'm beginning to think that the Street/Reality Fighting forum is where some of us should be.
Anyway, I've also raised my guard on one side into a cheun sao, ("sort of" like the position a Thai boxer uses to cover his head), as a last minute resort to a fast and tight hook to the head.

[Ernie]

Phil
well you removed the most obvious and best answer , distance , but we all end up there , tight hooks , and elbows are very dangerous tools , when used correctly
but the are still based on body rotation and torque '' a circular engine ''
though in the hands of a skilled person that circle is very crisp ,
for it still comes down to cutting off the power side . the beginning of the circle , before it has developed momentum,
it's a feel thing , or a recognition thing , when you spend time in the clinch area / body to body . you can feel when a guy is about to fire and zap him or stall him of jam him at that moment , stop his mental and physical engine , he will have to restart this is the opening when he is at his weakest .

as a visual concept if you shut down the jab line or lead side of the body by closing in , he will either fade out with good footwork or rip in the rear hand ,'' baring a elevation change ''
so if your aware of that rear threat you just close it off as you move in, take it before he can shoot.

but these things require spending time in that environment and eating shots , not on every ones menu :D

[foolinthedeck]

yuanfen hmm..
i was being serious man!
and if you turn the lights out - the bees and wasps and hornets will all go to sleep in instinct, so all it'd train is my footwork not stepping on them!!

another suggestion, try training in a swiming pool, get a ball filled with air attached to a rope, attach rope to floor... let the buoyancy of the.... ah never mind

[anerlich]

At our academy we have several floor-to-ceiling balls of different sizes, from about six inches in diameter down ot about tennis ball size. Never though of the diagonal attachment though, good idea.

I know what OJ means about bobbing and weaving being defensive, but more often than not they also provide excellent opportunities for counterpunching, e.g.countering a jab by slipping outside and uppercut to the chin, or weaving under a hook and shovel hooking to the short ribs on the way under.

IMO the "classic" WC guard and blocks redirections are less effective against a boxer who bobs and weaves and gets close. If you can keep him at your distance, great, but don't bet on it.

I find I'm blocking more shots (the ones that don't connect, anyway, ouch) with elbows and gloves and shedding punches with body movement ... like a boxer would. From the small amount of experience I have, it definitely helps to be first and take the initiative rather than try to play defense or catchup.

My Sifu, Rick Spain, is pretty handly as a boxer, and can box in at least three different styles - peekaboo, European defence, and another style where he holds his guard more open with constant hand movement. As soon as you get one sort of worked out he switches to another. I went through a pretty intense few months working out with him and some buds once a week like this, with a number of split lips and black eyes, which I had to eventually stop after a broken eardrum (beautiful right hook to the ear...sigh).

Clinching can sometimes work against a guy who want to play the long range jab-cross game .. but most bobber weavers are very familiar with the clinch, and arguably most boxers know more about the clinch than any striking TMAer.

Boxers IMO are MUCH harder to fight because even good shots don't really faze them, and they're willing to take a shot to give a better one. CONTACT, baby. Also they generally have MUCH faster and more practical footwork, and are MUCH fitter than TMA people.

IMO like most other stuff get some experience in what you're trying to defend against. Same applies with all this "WC antigrappling" crap ... grapplers have always had the best "antigrappling", why not learn it from people that understand it the best?

I could see how trying to hit flying insect might increase your reaction speed ... wasps, hornets, and other stinging insects might not be wise though. Kill a few of them and you'll have the whole nest onto you - no pak sao's going to be fast enough for that!

[russellsherry]

hi phil for me if i was dealing with a boxer and his weaving rememeber, this is he ducks he does not have the gloves on as in street fight i would use the wing chun uppercut from chumkill depending on skill level footwork and jamming also come into this get off his line dont stay in one stop so to speack, if you stand still in dealing with a boxer your a dead man also i would worry about his monugal jab before i would, worry about bobing and weaving peace russellsherry

[churn-ging]

At our school, we have a drill where one person will be holding two focus mit while the other person concentrates on punching it. The person holding the focus mit will be constantly moving it around while the wing chun person has to track it and keep punching. You can do this in a static position for new students, or you can do this with footwork where the person holding the focus mit will be stepping back, side stepping, etc.

The point of the drill is to train the eyes to quickly recognize where the target is.

[namron]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
I'm beginning to think that the Street/Reality Fighting forum is where some of us should be.
Anyway, I've also raised my guard on one side into a cheun sao, ("sort of" like the position a Thai boxer uses to cover his head), as a last minute resort to a fast and tight hook to the head.

Ditto for me , sort of.....

Tight high bon (like an sharp upward elbow strike), smother clinch, elbow counter from the check.

Alternatively 'try' work the position just outside of range of tight hook to get your scone out of the way. (ie: half step / weave back).

Still get caught a lot with that one (jab, cross, hook).

[Brithlor]

I don't have any credentials to answer these questions... As I have never been in a situation to use wing chun, and haven't attained any status with it...

But why wouldn't a bill sao work against a tight hook just as easily as against a more swinging roundhouse punch?

Also, as soon as you see them begin to attack wouldn't a straight punch on the same side as their lead while at the same time doing a close pok sao to cover your face, then as your punching arm retreats turning the poking hand into a bill sao work..? Don't average boxers tend to telegraph their punches a little more than wing chun punches which would allow for some pre-emptive guarding of zones (before the attack is thrown) while at the same time attacking where the opponents arm is leaving?

Also, by raising your knee as soon as you begin an attack or sense a sudden attack doesn't that defend against lower punches pretty well, while allowing you to kick the boxer if he ducks under your punch?

BTW, if boxing is so difficult to deal with as opposed to traditional kung fu martial arts wouldn't the most effective route be just to train in boxing as surely the same would apply to people you might have to fight on the street?

[yuanfen]

another suggestion, try training in a swiming pool, get a ball filled with air attached to a rope, attach rope to floor... let the buoyancy of the.... ah never mind
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why a ball? Get real! Put a grown alligator in the pool. Avoid his jaws- get on his back control him with your legs- guard and pull up on his head- you may get a submission. If you rub their sweet spot you can put one to sleep. Old time Florida Seminole sport.On the other hand---oops-I forget which hand

((PS I have seen this long before the Aussie came out with his TV show))

((PPS Do your pre birth chi gung -before you get into the water)):-

[Ultimatewingchun]

Phil:

I remember Sifu (William Cheung) teaching a strategy to deal with the boxer who bobs and weaves at some of his earliest seminars back in the day...he used a hook punch as an opening attack to make the boxer react by weaving to a place that YOU KNOW HE WILL GO...ie. I throw a left hook and he weaves down and around toward my left flank...I then immediately barrage that "area", where his head now is, with a barrage of straight blast chain (roll) punches...thereby straightening him up and hopefully backing him up and taking him right out of his bobing and weaving tactic because I"m now "all over him"...so to speak.

[aelward]

Wow, some really cool discussion going on, it prompted me to come out of lurking mode!

I find the title of the thread a little deceptive. When I think of "technician," I think of the finer points, precision, and coherent logic that puts Wing Chun together-- basically, the things that go out the window if you let the adrenaline monster take over (which happens so often...).

Anyway, someone mentioned about not being able to fight when moving backwards-- this seems to be the prevailing theory among the people who like to chain punch a lot. Personal experience has made me stray from this approach-- once, when sparring someone who outweighed me by 50 pounds, I just could not get the person off balance and going backwards. Another time, I had a boxer going backward off balance, but he somehow regained balance and nailed me with a tight hook. Yet another time I thought I had someone going backward and they shot in and did a modified suplex (they were in front of me, not behind me-- regardless, I would have landed on my head had I not angled off and fell on my shoulder and rolled instead).

Despite these nasty experiences, chain punching does seem to be a good weapon if you expect your technique to go to all hell in an adrenaline encounter.

Now for some specific methods we use:
1. To practice accuracy against a moving target, we will often chase after a focus mitt held by a feeder who is moving it in all kinds of directions. Someone else mentioned this drill as well. Practically speaking, one thing to consider is not aiming for the head which is a smaller target that moves faster than the body.

2. Against quick jabs-- we practice timing interceptions. Two parties face off at whatever distance we are practicing. The feeder throws a single attack while the other person attempts to do a simultaneous attack-defense. Against a jab, that might be a straight punch over the top, combined with positioning oneself on the flank. Of course, easier said than done...

3. Off of this, go into continuous attacks-- after the initial attack, the feeder continues with 3, 5, or continuous combinations. I think someone mentioned this

4. Against the tight hook-- god, I hate that thing. I've seen people practice against it in isolation -- as in, the feeder just throws a hook at you. But we know that a boxer is going to put that hook somewhere in a combination-- the only practice we have against it is #3 here. However, I would love to hear what other people are doing.

5. I am also of the thinking that the best way to make your Wing Chun work against a boxer is to spar against boxers. It is always an eye-opening experience.

Also to learn the basics of boxing. I have seen some martial arts schools where they have counters against boxing techniques, but the feeders look awful.

[fa_jing]

I think for the lead hook, you can parry it with your favorite block but the rear hook or overhand right...even if you beat him with your straight punch if his is on the way already it can mean taking a big hit...I think the strategy has to be to move away from it and wedge into his center, just like against the round kick. It's quicker to move your head than to move your whole body but of course you don't want to move it into something else...

[fa_jing]

Also I believe that this range of fighting in Wing Chun is elbow range - but I know so little of WC elbow fighting other than the 5 elbows and really basic apps....:(

[Phil Redmond]

>>IMO like most other stuff get some experience in what you're trying to defend against. Same applies with all this "WC antigrappling" crap ... grapplers have always had the best "antigrappling", why not learn it from people that understand it the best?<<

Good point Andrew. That's why I'm studying grappling.

>>. . . . .i would use the wing chun uppercut from chumkill. . <<

Russell, how would you train this?

>>. . . .we have a drill where one person will be holding two focus mit. . . .<<

churn-ging, that's a good way to train timing and focus.

[Phil Redmond]

I remember Sifu (William Cheung) teaching a strategy to deal with the boxer who bobs and weaves at some of his earliest seminars back in the day...he used a hook punch as an opening attack to make the boxer react by weaving to a place that YOU KNOW HE WILL GO...ie. I throw a left hook and he weaves down and around toward my left flank...I then immediately barrage that "area", where his head now is, with a barrage of straight blast chain (roll) punches...thereby straightening him up and hopefully backing him up and taking him right out of his bobing and weaving tactic because I"m now "all over him"...so to speak.
Victor, I like the tape with Sifu and the peekaboo boxers. He sometimes counter jabs with a pak cheun covering a posibble cross to the upper gate on the opposite side. Perfect for headhunters.

[yuanfen]

Back to Phiil's more wing chun relevant question--- with sufficient training- a quick coordinated biu motion- can protect against a hook. A tight hook at close quaters is a beauty. Not all hooks are co equal. "Ducking" a hook has its risks... good hookers can do it again and again- do it to you one more time-it can create a meditative experience- the hook that is:-

[Phil Redmond]

Brithlor,
>> why wouldn't a bill sao work against a tight hook just as easily as against a more swinging roundhouse punch?<<

How would you get a biu inside of a tight hook? Plus, some hooks use a step with the whole body behind it.

>>so, as soon as you see them begin to attack...<<

they can use a setup and you won't see diddley.

>>. . woudn't a straight punch on the same side as their lead while at the same time doing a close pok sao to cover your face, then as your punching arm retreats turning the poking hand into a bill sao work..?<<

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Are you saying to use a parallel arm straight punch pak as he is hooking?


>>don't average boxers tend to telegraph their punches a little more than wing chun punches which would allow for some pre-emptive guarding of zones (before the attack is thrown) while at the same time attacking where the opponents arm is leaving?<<

a boxer trains not to telegraph his blows unless he's feinting.
From the sidelines the blows seem telegraphed. When you're in front of a good boxer the blows can come from out of nowhere.

[anerlich]

But why wouldn't a bill sao work against a tight hook just as easily as against a more swinging roundhouse punch?

With a bil sao, you're trying to intercept at the inside of the forearm inside the punch's arc. With a wide swinging punch, that is a sound strategy, but with a nice tight hook it's almost impossible to wedge your bil sao in there. Same with garn or gum against a shovel hook or body rip.


don't average boxers tend to telegraph their punches a little more than wing chun punches

In a word, NO. IMO the average Wing Chun guy is probably likely to telegraph more due to lack of real "banging" experience. The "average boxer" is IMO a much more dangerous proposition than the "average WC student". Don't underestimate boxing, it is pretty d@mn effective.


if boxing is so difficult to deal with as opposed to traditional kung fu martial arts wouldn't the most effective route be just to train in boxing as surely the same would apply to people you might have to fight on the street?

Many people agree with such a proposition, expecially boxers.

[yuanfen]

A different perspective:Much depends on who learned what and how.
Boxers are indeed dangerous but not all boxers are good boxers.
Wing Chun takes more time to learn effectively...but once the learning curve goes upward-it's quite a journey. Micro biu motions can defend againsta hook. Depends on training it IMO.
Using boxing motions agaisnt boxers can be problematical-they know boxing moves better than non boxers.
Maybe soon we can show examples while posting re what is being talked about at the time.Real time.

[KenWingJitsu]

Now THIS! is the kind of thread I like to see around here.

Good stuff, great points!

And no you cant bil-sao a tight hook...those of us who tried against some one really thring to hook, know this (ow!) lol.

[yuanfen]

Developmental biu sao and applying it are two quite different things. There are many different options in biu jee.But biu sao is not the only answer.
But if you use onlya boxing move againsta good boxerand you are not a good boxer-careful -it's his game. You should have a game of your own- whatever it is. No two hooks are exactly the same-in timing,speed, direction or power.

[Phil Redmond]

My questions about boxing techniques were not meant for boxers only. I wasn't talking about ring fighting. I am from NYC and I now live in Detroit. In both places and in other urban areas there are lots of young and old people who have been in jail. They learn peekaboo, comstock, 52 blocks, jailrock etc, and they are pretty good because knowing how to fight with their hands could save their butts, literally;)
People who live in the "burbs" may never come across a person who knows jailhouse rock. So of course you'll probably never get to see a really JHR fighter. Try this link.

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/52/52.html

[Phil Redmond]

>>And no you cant bil-sao a tight hook...those of us who tried against some one really thring to hook, know this (ow!) lol.<<

You said a mouthful. From what I know the only hook is a tight hook.

[yuanfen]

Phil- you seem to be shifting the context. You began with the topic of dealing with boxers. JHR and 53 blocks is a somewhat different topic.
So what is your exact question or point- so we dont end up all over the place.
I didnt grow up in NY but I am not exactlya suburb kind of guy either.
I know about Bernard Hopkins- his elbows and shoulders and Tyson's arm break attempt on the White buffalo.
The pushing off the wall and punching is a known street technique too. Ditto for one/two finger punches.The tight hook is more boxing talk- then there are so called dirty versions of boxing...
so what are we exactly talking about on this thread?
Old wc was not designed for the ring either or the octagon.

[Phil Redmond]

"For those interested I would like to start a thread on the technical aspects of WC, (whatever that means). . . . . . . ." My first question is training how to deal with a boxer's constant bobbing, weaving . . . ."
If you look this is how I started the thread. 52 blocks and JHR uses tight hooks and uppercuts, jab bobbing and weaving just like a boxer. The only difference is there's no rules. The reason I brought the 52 blocks into it was because I was PM'ed by someone who thought my boxing question was about fighting in the ring or octagon which it wasn't. I had planned on discussing all aspects of fighting against all types of styles. I was heading for CLF next since it seems as there are lots of people involved in gangs that do CLF. Most boxers from the streets know of or know JHR. And most JHR fighters are really good, fast and powerful, plus they can take a punch especially if the learned in jail. I'm hoping that other people will give some input on fighting other styles as well. How about you? I know you have travelled lots and you've probably seen lots of fighting styles.

[iblis73]

I'd like to make some pts gentlemen (yes, another lurker steps "out of the closet" to use modern parlance, lol.)

Really the only way to learn to counter a GOOD boxer is to train with one or learn his game. I have Tony Blauers first video series (w/Panther) and he has some sick boxing skills-very mobile and very dangerous. The point I think is that we can say "well, what if he does this, what if he throws that....." but a boxer will fight you , NOT "box" you per se if its a street altercation. So his attacks wont be single, isolated ones-a flurry, barrage from a boxer AT CLOSE RANGE is lethal. Think prison cell, bar, or even school hallway (u know Joy, the undergrads that think u graded them unfairly ;)

Also we are fixating on fighting the STYLE. What if said boxer also does muay thai or grappling? We are facing, potentially, a whole range of tools or techniques.

The old adage "never box a boxer" or "never grapple a grappler" is quaint but not very usefull. By the time u realize your enemy is a boxer you will be on the ground facing the sky, ditto for grappling. You cannot set your training as "is he is a boxer i will handle him this way, if hes a grappler I will handle him this way...." due to the reaction gap and also because he could be cross trained (or just a bad mutha.)

Did anyone see the recent bout that the Filipino kid won? He seemed to use a **** effective "boxing blast" type of attack that floored the Mexican dude.

[Phil Redmond]

Old wc was not designed for the ring either or the octagon.
Can it adapt to new fighting methods?
Anyway, I try to stay with my lead parallel to my opponent's lead.
This way when he jabs I'm away from his "power" hand. How about the jab body hook or vice versa? Any takers?

[anerlich]

Iblis, good points.

Phil, jumping ahead to CLF, my first KF instructor, David Crook, Has taught a hybrid system using Wing Chun, CLF, and Northern Sil Lum since 1969. He trained with Sigung Cheung in the 1960's when the latter was a resident of Canberra, where David still lives and teaches. Sigung (according to David, who I have no reason to doubt) used to send his more advanced students at the time to David's classes, as (according to David) he wanted them to get experience using and defending against CLF's circular attacks.

While WC and CLF have been traditional enemies in HK for generations, David believes they are HIGHLY complementary.

Also, once again according to the same source, a number of CLF techniques have specific uses against WC fighters. Some of the twisting punches are designed to snake around a WC guard, others like the swinging punches to allow power attacks with minimal opportunity for a WC person to find a bridge, or to destroy WC structure, knocking the guard aside and then working on the rest.

While much of WC history in HK involves victory over CLF adversaries, it should come as no surprise that much CLF lore involves the vanquishing of hapless WC fighters.

[Edmund]

Ernie is correct. Proper distancing is the most simple answer which Phil has disallowed.

The distance is what makes the hook tight.

If the opponent is close and their hand is free, they will throw at any openings. This creates the situation where you must defend.

By applying the inside lim sao when the distance is close, cupping the opponent's tricep, you can establish a control point where they cannot throw a hook.

Similarly with the bobbing and weaving, boxing combos etc, if you let the opponent move whereever they like or throw whatever they like, then you are putting the pressure onto yourself to hit a moving target and defend multiple attacks.

While you can do it, the strategy should be to apply the WC ideas of shutting them down, sticking, getting control points etc.

[Phil Redmond]

Haymakers are easier to deal with than "tight" hooks to the body or head. Aside from proper distancing does anyone have any ideas? How about treating a tight head shot as an elbow strike?
There was no disallowment in this statement. I most definately mentioned proper distancing. Proper distance is always important especially when multiple punches/kicks are thrown.

[Phil Redmond]

Andrew,
A CLFpow choy can cause some real damage. It can slice right through a bong sau.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond

There was no disallowment in this statement. I most definately mentioned proper distancing. Especially when multiple punches/kicks are thrown.

Well sure you mentioned it, but you basically stated you didn't want to hear any more about it, which is a shame since it's the best answer and there's a lot of aspects involved in it.

[Phil Redmond]

edmund,
You're reading too much into what I wrote. I never said that I didn't want to hear about distance. I figured it was a given that everyone here would know that. My statement "aside from distance" doesn't mean that distance isn't important. Without proper distance you can't function properly.

[Ernie]

looks like it's going technique vs. technique this will cause us to splinter , since some things work better for some body types then others ....
lets look at the one universal element ,
the body
and how it generates power , for there to be a hook, over hand, cross upper cut '' from the rear hand for arguments sake ''
there hast to be a common engine , power source , in wing chun we face squarely and apply ground power via out structure and alignment '' the trans mission''

but for a rear power hand there needs to be torque ,a twisting to bring the rear side into play , sometimes wide sometimes tight and crisp but the engine is the same , one shoulder forward one back a twist and ''bam'' we got a canon.

if we look at the problem from a body mechanics point of view and we understand the elements a person needs to make use of such an action , we can take into consideration that threat and shut it down before it starts

close off the lead hand line but simultaneously stall the power side
how you do it is up to you and your skill level , we call this controlling 2 points in one action or ''sealing ''

I'm purposely staying away from technique

how do you develop this skill the seed are in chi sau but I would work with boxers on a specific drill
the boxer has on glove , I do not , he is allowed lead and rear hand shots , light to moderate at first , building pressure as we developed a working relation ship ,
I would intercept the lead hand and close on that side of the body eating up his space so he couldn't double jab or jab hook and so on .
I would simultaneously place my hand on his rear glove , I would learn to feel when he would pulse , or plant to fire his shot and just apply pressure at the exact moment to stall his action ,
spend time in there surfing his energy left and right sometimes you get it some times you don't later add in your own shots ,

uh oh the girlfriend is pulling my computer plug got to go

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
edmund,
You're reading too much into what I wrote. I never said that I didn't want to hear about distance. I figured it was a given that everyone here would know that.


True possibly but I just feel more could be discussed on it technically.




My statement "aside from distance" doesn't mean that distance isn't important. Without proper distance you can't function properly.

agreed.

[Edmund]

On what Iblis73 said:

It's true you cannot know what type of opponent you are facing hence it hard to strategize to match their "style".

But every opponent and style is limited by the human body and attacks come from the same angles and gates regardless.

From a non-contact position, we have to rely on general visual cues whether the attack is a punch or a grab or whatever. So while they may have any number of tools and techniques, they still have two arms and legs.

So when we look for things like elbow control or wrist control or neck control etc., these defences apply against any sort of opponent.

[yuanfen]

comments on Iblis 73's post:

or even school hallway (u know Joy, the undergrads that think u graded them unfairly

((I could tell you stories!!))



Did anyone see the recent bout that the Filipino kid won? He seemed to use a **** effective "boxing blast" type of attack that floored the Mexican dude.

((The Pacuiao(?)-Barrera fight? Very instructive.More to it than that- though he did pour it on. His trainer Freddie Roach is a good trainer-retrained him in several key ways-defensively. P is a southpaw. Many southpaws depend on their power left. P has been knocked out before when he just depended on his power left. Roach had him work a lot on his straight right and right hooks. His timing was excellent. His right jab kept throwing off Barrera's timing.Barrera has been in some major wars which has taken it's toll. That is the downside of boxing-
the relatively early dterioration of skills in the 30s!
BTW streetfighters have to become more well rounded to do well in boxing. On the street one can get by with some favorite techniques- but the pace of boxing(training) requires a more well rounded approach. You just cant depend ona sucker punch etc.
Rocky Graziano wasa street fighter witha great right. Against a young Sugar Ray Robinson-he was a one armed guy who got wiped out.))

[yuanfen]

Phil sez:

Can it adapt to new fighting methods?
-----------------------------------
"It" doesnt do a thing. You do. "It" to me is simply the best way to have an integrated development of the body, motion and the mind-the human body structure has not changed much in 3oo years- with good understanding wc can be adjusted for the "new".
I know we go round and round on that topic.

[yuanfen]

Andrew,
A CLFpow choy can cause some real damage. It can slice right through a bong sau.

---------------------------------------------

(( sure-If you misuse the bong sao))

[Brithlor]

What wing chun tape were people refering to earlier in this thread? The one where William Cheung uses ant-bobing tactics..? I'd like to get that one.

When you compare ONLY the hand techniques verus ONLY the hands of boxing won't Wing chun always fall somewhat behind?

The footwork in Wing Chun is designed in a way as to protect against kicks and lower attacks so it isn't as nimble as boxing footwork... The footwork of boxing is what allows them to deliver their quick and powerful punches. In a competetion where hands are only allowed wouldn't a wing chun person using wing chun footwork fall behind? With kicks and knees invovled (even if they're never used, just the threat of them) doesn't it change the whole dynamic of combat and make wing chun footwork more practical?

Also, doesn't adding in kicking and knees tip the scale slightly more towards the wing chun side? Wing Chun people (as far as I know) know how to deliver and defend against kicks/knees better than boxers, and it seems to me that a lot of the verticle evasions used by boxers become dangerous against a wing chun guy (or any person for that matter) who doesn't chase feints and knows where to use kicks.

I don't really have any ranking in wing chun yet (been doing it for 9 months, but also did another kung fu style for 3 years) and have never fought a boxer so I don't really know anything besides theories... or what MIGHT work...

[Brithlor]

BTW after reading this thread I started watching a lot of boxing clips... I noticed that quite a few attacks are parried in a manner similiar to wing chun, and that the footwork isn't THAT much different. If boxers can use parries and blocks effectively against hooks and other attacks why couldn't wing chun?

Also, from far away couldn't the Wing Chun entry techique followed by a fake hooking punch be used to draw a response from a boxer? This way if they duck underneath the attack your body is fairly well protected to coutner attacks, and if you punch using your leading hand and with your knee raised you are positioned to do a kick of some kind, or a knee if the duck close in to your body.

PS, just a quick question, but how well do boxing techniques blend in with wing chun and has does anyone use that kind of combination?

[namron]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond

Can it adapt to new fighting methods?
Anyway, I try to stay with my lead parallel to my opponent's lead.
This way when he jabs I'm away from his "power" hand. How about the jab body hook or vice versa? Any takers?

I train thai boxing on Saturdays, and while by no means an expert, I've noticed when sparing these guys like to keep a cross leg stance (ie: left foot forward to your left foot), they will switch stance to keep this position.

I guess the parallel stance means the opponent has to bridge in deeper to throw the rear arm especially for tighter attacks such as the hook or rip.

At least with the jab body shot youve got a better path to counter to the head and I find you can absorb the body hook a bit by keeping the elbows in. I tight counter of the jab can also back the attack up an take up some of the opponent forward momentum.

[yuanfen]

A quote:When you compare ONLY the hand techniques verus ONLY the hands of boxing won't Wing chun always fall somewhat behind?

The footwork in Wing Chun is designed in a way as to protect against kicks and lower attacks so it isn't as nimble as boxing footwork...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
((On both points depends on who learned what,when and how. Wing chun has much more hand work and footwork IMHO.
Also some folks are lazy in their wc training whreas boxers you see on TV are generally in top shape)))

[yenhoi]

Phil,

I sent you a PM.

As to your other questions:

Playing with TMA vs Others... in my very very limited exp, it doesnt matter, Ive decided some places and people just dont train well for fighting, and their "fighters" suck, others train correctly and have better results.

Tight hook:

"We" class tight hooks and elbows into the same category of motion. Most of my thoughts resemble Ernie's.

www.sageartsunlimited.com

There are focus mitt drills there designed for hooks and bobing and weaving, etc.

:eek:

[Phil Redmond]

Joy, it was me that wrote about the bong sau and the CLF strike.
CLF sometimes uses a corkscrew punch that crashes down on your arm and then changes direction sinking with the whole body(sometimes into a low horse), once they make contact with your bridge. The CLF guys that fought WC in HK always thought that the WC bong sau was easy to exploit. At least that's what I used to hear form the old CLF guys I know.

[Phil Redmond]

yenhoi, Thanks.
Also I agree with you about the tight jab being treated like an elbow strike. In fact referees are alway on the lookout for a sneaky elbow behind the hook in some boxing matches.

ernie, you said that WC fights square on. Dod you mean shoulder to shoulder. Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote. I don't fight shoulder to shoulder (square on).
Yeah talking about techinques will splinter some of us. Each has his own preferences and ablities. Plus, the dynamics of fighting can change so rapidly the technique that worked one time might not next time.
I find that fighting parallel arm/leg work better for me. I attempt to adjust my stance so that I'm parallel lead to my opponent. Of course you have to be able to work both parallel lead and cross lead. Can you share your thoughts on this?

[Phil Redmond]

William Cheung has a few WC vs. Boxing tapes. I'll have to check which one has him working with the peekaboo boxers.

[Ernie]

phil
[[ernie, you said that WC fights square on. Dod you mean shoulder to shoulder/I'm parallel lead to my opponent]]

square body facing and parallel lead , same thing meaning both left and right hands are equal distance , basic slt facing but with footwork,

it's been a hard transition for me as well , but the more natural it gets the easier things flow .

phil

can i add a new dimension to the possible lines of attack ,
elevation changes , high low high or any combination of this ,

meaning a person that starts a attack from a high reference point , sells it deep , right when he draws the counter drops tp a low reference point ,

for visual effects a high left jab to the face that leads to a low right cross to the belly and he drops elevation and steps off angle ?

i find many wing chun people have momentary lapses when the elevation changes quickly , i like this concept since it can condition reflexs when a guy fakes high and goes for the shoot :D

[yuanfen]

Phil- I understand what you are saying about CLF strikes.
I have seen top quality CLF in (one eacH) seminar of tat mau wong and doc fai wong. I dont understinate themor anybody, But-
cutting througha frozen bong sao on contact is one thing- adynamic bong sao which adjusts upon contact is a different matter.
I dont draw too many inferences from the early youthful HK encounter stories.

[Phil Redmond]

ernie wrote: >>square body facing and parallel lead , same thing meaning both left and right hands are equal distance , basic slt facing but with footwork,<<
OK, I getcha. I like to face at a 45 degree to my opponent. My centerline facing away from his.

I was just about to post on the fake, shoot.

[Ernie]

phil
I like to face at a 45 degree to my opponent

oh i didn't mean facing him nose to nose , that's a punches game , i'm not into trading blows , i ment square body as in the way i face arms can reach at equal length ,
in reference to the opponent i would rather break his position and ability to face me squarly but i am drifting of subject :D

[russellsherry]

hi phil to answer your ? re the chum kill punch , this punch of course is from the hk version phil as you i think trained as well, i would get a fried to hold two focus gloves at driffrent angles when he tries to bob and weave use the pining technique from the dummy and the uppercut at the same time, but this of course changes if the guy has the gloves on and then i would try to jam him peace russellsherry

[russellsherry]

hi phil re wing chun v choy lay fut , around 1979 i fought victor low from dave laceys school at sifu cheungs australian tourament, it was my first experreince victor while on the other hand had about 20 fights , and iwas no way in his class but the mongel punch i can remember was that choy lay fut long round punch if i had used bong sau with the gloves or tan suu it would have been worse expereince than it was but i try to use trying to tire him up tackics but he was far to good for me i n aggree with you on that phil gloves change eveything about wing chun we are not as good i also aggree with you i perfer bill sau against a tight hook peace russellsherry